Soulborn & Divine Mind fixes, quick and dirty

[Zombimode]

Goal: making those two classes playable in E6
I consider the Fighter as (barely) playable in E6.

Divine Mind:
Shifting the Power Points/Day, Powers Known and Maximum Power Level down 2 levels.
That would mean that a Divine Minds could manifest 1st level powers at 3rd level instead on 5th level as RAW.


Soulborn:
Shifting all of the meldshaper stuff down 3 levels.
That would mean that a Soulborn could shape 1 soulmeld at level 1.

What do you think?

[Lans]

I would shift Divine Mind's manifesting down one more level. then compare it to the ardent and see where it stands

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, Soulborn isn't too bad in E6. Better than standard, anyways. You see, they can pick up Open Least Chakra feats with bonus feats, which you get a plethora of in E6, and no one else has better than Least chakra at that point. So you're even with everyone else (except Totemist, who has the Totem chakra) on chakra you can use, and a full BAB class. You can even pick up the various feats that give bonus essentia to shore up your otherwise lacking pool.

Mind you, Totemist and Incarnate are still ahead on that game, but in E6, Soulborn having a full BAB gives him an iterative attack otherwise unattainable by a non-full-BAB class.

[ThiefInTheNight]

What are you trying to achieve by doing so?

Both classes' conceptual space are better-covered by better-designed classes. For the faithful meldshaper, the Incarnate does an excellent job, while for the faithful/philosophical manifester, the Ardent does a quite-good job and has the added bonus of not being an unholy crime against psionics (which is what the Divine Mind is).

[Person_Man]

I have two Soulborn fixes, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119121). The first is basically a Soulknife + Soulborn gestalt with a few original class features thrown in, and the second is a more strait forward Soulborn with more bonus feats, essentia, and soulmelds. Feel free to use any aspect of either of them in your personal homebrew work (though please attribute my work if you do).

[Hazzardevil]

I have two Soulborn fixes, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119121). The first is basically a Soulknife + Soulborn gestalt with a few original class features thrown in, and the second is a more strait forward Soulborn with more bonus feats, essentia, and soulmelds. Feel free to use any aspect of either of them in your personal homebrew work (though please attribute my work if you do).
I was about to say just gestalt Soulborn with Soulknife.

[Godskook]

Actually, Soulborn isn't too bad in E6. Better than standard, anyways. You see, they can pick up Open Least Chakra feats with bonus feats, which you get a plethora of in E6, and no one else has better than Least chakra at that point. So you're even with everyone else (except Totemist, who has the Totem chakra) on chakra you can use, and a full BAB class. You can even pick up the various feats that give bonus essentia to shore up your otherwise lacking pool.

Mind you, Totemist and Incarnate are still ahead on that game, but in E6, Soulborn having a full BAB gives him an iterative attack otherwise unattainable by a non-full-BAB class.

Actually, considering that full meldshaping usefulness is attainable with feats, there's only 2 reasons to take any meldshaping class: +3 against dispels and totem chakra binds. For everything else, you can wing it with feats just fine. Which means that Soulborns and Incarnates suffer from the same problem that ACF-less Fighters do, that 90% of what they offer is simply faster feat acquisition.

[GoatBoy]

Divine Mind looks a bit like a melee class, so full BAB might make it less completely horrible.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, considering that full meldshaping usefulness is attainable with feats, there's only 2 reasons to take any meldshaping class: +3 against dispels and totem chakra binds. For everything else, you can wing it with feats just fine. Which means that Soulborns and Incarnates suffer from the same problem that ACF-less Fighters do, that 90% of what they offer is simply faster feat acquisition.

Increasing your number of binds and essentia is pretty important too.

[Godskook]

Increasing your number of binds and essentia is pretty important too.

Except, like the ACF-less fighter, *ANYONE* can do that with feats.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Except, like the ACF-less fighter, *ANYONE* can do that with feats.

Depending on how the GM interprets the feat Open Least Chakra, this may not be the case. There is no feat 'Extra Chakra Bind'. If your GM does not let you use OLC to also bind a soulmeld to that particular chakra, you could be up an unsanitary tributary

Also, by taking a meldshaping class, you get access to the class's entire soulmeld list, something which is otherwise hideously expensive to do, feat-wise, considering each soulmeld is a feat in and of itself.

Furthermore, by taking Double Chakra Bind, with your extra binds, you may now have TWO meldshapes per chakra, rather than the bog-standard one.

There are several advantages, unless you are simply looking for one specific meldshape for one specific purpose.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Furthermore, by taking Double Chakra Bind, with your extra binds, you may now have TWO meldshapes per chakra, rather than the bog-standard one.
I'm AFB, but doesn't that require an impossible-to-achieve-in-E6 Meldshaper Level 9?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm AFB, but doesn't that require an impossible-to-achieve-in-E6 Meldshaper Level 9?

Ahh, you are correct. I was confusing it with the equally valuable Expand Soulmeld Capacity which has the prerequisite of having levels in a meldshaper class.

[Zaq]

Divine Mind is playable in E6 with a little bit of optimization. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197000&highlight=Iron+chef) (This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10948132&postcount=37) is mine, pointed out specifically because I'm vain. They're all playable, though.)

That said, I wouldn't object to giving them a boost. I'm just saying that if they ever get a chance to, well, kinda-sorta shine, E6 is it.

[Draz74]

Everyone decrying feats as a class feature is forgetting something important: Most E6 games don't happen in the "high epic" levels where everybody has 10+ bonus feats! Most of them happen in the Level 1-6 range where having bonus feats can still be a big deal! Yes, they'll eventually lose their luster, in theory ... but that's theory.

It's like saying Artificer is a weak choice in standard 3e D&D, because it can't stand up to spellcasters at Level 25+. :smalltongue:

I'd actually say Thug Dungeoncrasher Fighter is a perfectly fine class in E6 (as long as you don't compare it to ToB builds) ...


Actually, considering that full meldshaping usefulness is attainable with feats, there's only 2 reasons to take any meldshaping class: +3 against dispels and totem chakra binds. For everything else, you can wing it with feats just fine. Which means that Soulborns and Incarnates suffer from the same problem that ACF-less Fighters do, that 90% of what they offer is simply faster feat acquisition.

Incarnate 3 also gives you expanded essentia capacity on every Incarnate Soulmeld. Which stacks with the feat Expanded Soulmeld Capacity. That's pretty significant. If you want to put 4 essentia into an E6 soulmeld (other than a Totem Bind), this is the way to do it.

[Godskook]

Depending on how the GM interprets the feat Open Least Chakra, this may not be the case. There is no feat 'Extra Chakra Bind'. If your GM does not let you use OLC to also bind a soulmeld to that particular chakra, you could be up an unsanitary tributary

While I'd hear arguments for how OLC works with actual meldshapers due to the rule conflicts between the feat and the class features, I think RAW is clear for feat-shapers. The feat says:

"You can now bind a soulmeld or item to that chakra"

In the absence of text to the contrary, that seems clear as day to me.


Also, by taking a meldshaping class, you get access to the class's entire soulmeld list, something which is otherwise hideously expensive to do, feat-wise, considering each soulmeld is a feat in and of itself.

While this isn't nearly as useful as it sounds since there's a lot of redundancy and uselessness on the lists, still, good point.


There are several advantages, unless you are simply looking for one specific meldshape for one specific purpose.

There are advantages. I just don't think they're worth giving up the valuable things other classes offer that can't be picked up via feats.


Ahh, you are correct. I was confusing it with the equally valuable Expand Soulmeld Capacity which has the prerequisite of having levels in a meldshaper class.

Re-read the requirements, scroll down to Shape Soulmeld, and realize that it *GIVES* you the prequisites needed to take that feat.


Everyone decrying feats as a class feature is forgetting something important: Most E6 games don't happen in the "high epic" levels where everybody has 10+ bonus feats! Most of them happen in the Level 1-6 range where having bonus feats can still be a big deal! Yes, they'll eventually lose their luster, in theory ... but that's theory.

In my experience, players level up every ~4th session, so in a year+ E6 campaign, that hammers out to 6-12 bonus feats within the first year(I forget the ratio on xp to feats in E6).


It's like saying Artificer is a weak choice in standard 3e D&D, because it can't stand up to spellcasters at Level 25+. :smalltongue:

Nobody says that cause it isn't true. Actually, at that level, the casters might be lagging behind barring epic spellcasting, which just shouldn't ever be used.


I'd actually say Thug Dungeoncrasher Fighter is a perfectly fine class in E6 (as long as you don't compare it to ToB builds) ...

I find it amusing that you cry out in support of feats-as-class-features, but your 'example' mentions a strong ACF that isn't available via feats.


Incarnate 3 also gives you expanded essentia capacity on every Incarnate Soulmeld. Which stacks with the feat Expanded Soulmeld Capacity. That's pretty significant. If you want to put 4 essentia into an E6 soulmeld (other than a Totem Bind), this is the way to do it.

While that's handy, care to give an example where getting from 3 essentia to 4 essentia beats out having +4d6 skirmish* damage that bypasses precision immune creatures and arcanist's spells?

*Just as an example of something you can get in E6.

[dextercorvia]

While that's handy, care to give an example where getting from 3 essentia to 4 essentia beats out having +4d6 skirmish* damage that bypasses precision immune creatures and arcanist's spells?

*Just as an example of something you can get in E6.

Totemist2/Bard4 using Manticore Belt bound to totem chakra, and full DFI optimization, and knowledge devotion.

That makes the difference between 3 attacks and 4 attacks at something like 8d6+Yes/ attack.

[Godskook]

Totemist2/Bard4 using Manticore Belt bound to totem chakra, and full DFI optimization, and knowledge devotion.

That makes the difference between 3 attacks and 4 attacks at something like 8d6+Yes/ attack.

Note that what you're responding to was a challenge about Incarnate's +1 soulmeld capacity thing. Has nothing to do with Totemists(Who I've consistently called out as being the good E6 meldshaper).

[dextercorvia]

Note that what you're responding to was a challenge about Incarnate's +1 soulmeld capacity thing. Has nothing to do with Totemists(Who I've consistently called out as being the good E6 meldshaper).

Not really. Draz brought up the Incarnate3 special ability, and in the same clause mentioned the Totemist2 ability. Your response ignored the distinction between classes, and only asked for a case where 4 essentia invested rather than 3 made a significant difference.

I'd have a harder time coming up with such a quick example using Incarnate, but since theirs applies to all of their soulmelds, it isn't really the difference between 4 essentia invested rather than 3, but rather having 4 or more soulmelds at 4 essentia rather than 3.

[Godskook]

Not really. Draz brought up the Incarnate3 special ability, and in the same clause mentioned the Totemist2 ability. Your response ignored the distinction between classes, and only asked for a case where 4 essentia invested rather than 3 made a significant difference.

If you're going to grammar nazi the paragraph, the paragraph written by Draz was clearly and solely about Incarnate 3. The totemist portion was mentioned, but only as a parenthetical comment made for the sake of accuracy. It had no bearing on his point, and when I responded, I responded to his point, not the paranthetical aside.


I'd have a harder time coming up with such a quick example using Incarnate, but since theirs applies to all of their soulmelds, it isn't really the difference between 4 essentia invested rather than 3, but rather having 4 or more soulmelds at 4 essentia rather than 3.

But typically, +1 on even a bunch of shaped effects and 3 bound soulmelds isn't going to compare to having actual class features from another class.

[Draz74]

In my experience, players level up every ~4th session, so in a year+ E6 campaign, that hammers out to 6-12 bonus feats within the first year(I forget the ratio on xp to feats in E6).

It's 5000 XP per extra feat. But I think E6 campaigns typically don't last for anywhere near a year continuously; at least, that's my theory about why most of the actual E6 games I've heard about take place below Level 6.


Nobody says that cause it isn't true. Actually, at that level, the casters might be lagging behind barring epic spellcasting, which just shouldn't ever be used.
"Shouldn't" and "isn't" are two different things. I was referring to games with epic spellcasting included.

In such a game, the Artificer suddenly goes from being a very strong class to a weak class when the game hits Epic, since (AFAIK) the Artificer doesn't really get any epic support, while other T1 classes get Epic Spellcasting.

In any case, what I was referring to is that it's silly and misleading to pick a range of the game that most people don't play as the basis for judging class power.


I find it amusing that you cry out in support of feats-as-class-features, but your 'example' mentions a strong ACF that isn't available via feats.
If you thought that was amusing or inconsistent, then you were overstating my argument to yourself in your mind.

Bonus feats aren't a good class feature in normal D&D play, and E6 certainly does nothing to fix that trend. Fighter without e.g. Dungeoncrasher sucks in either play format, I'm not trying to argue that.

But bonus feats aren't worthless in E6 like they were being made out to be.


While that's handy, care to give an example where getting from 3 essentia to 4 essentia beats out having +4d6 skirmish* damage that bypasses precision immune creatures and arcanist's spells?

I don't claim to be a master of Incarnate builds in any situation, and the real appeal of the feature is that most of your soulmelds (those that you haven't improved with a feat) increase from 2 capacity to 3. That's a big deal for a flexible meldshaper that tries to have a lot of decent tricks available.

My point was, something with Incarnate levels will still be a better meldshaper than some schmoe who just has 12 extra feats to burn on meldshaping.

[Godskook]

It's 5000 XP per extra feat. But I think E6 campaigns typically don't last for anywhere near a year continuously; at least, that's my theory about why most of the actual E6 games I've heard about take place below Level 6.

Honestly, E6 isn't really any different from normal D&D until you start getting bonus feats instead of levels. Its only after that, that the variant really starts becoming distinct.


If you thought that was amusing or inconsistent, then you were overstating my argument to yourself in your mind.

Bonus feats aren't a good class feature in normal D&D play, and E6 certainly does nothing to fix that trend. Fighter without e.g. Dungeoncrasher sucks in either play format, I'm not trying to argue that.

But bonus feats aren't worthless in E6 like they were being made out to be.

You're the only one that said 'worthless'. I said "90% replicatable via feats"


I don't claim to be a master of Incarnate builds in any situation, and the real appeal of the feature is that most of your soulmelds (those that you haven't improved with a feat) increase from 2 capacity to 3. That's a big deal for a flexible meldshaper that tries to have a lot of decent tricks available.

I don't think there's a single soulmeld in the book that gains a 'trick' for having a three essentia rather than two. Even Dextercorvia's Manticore trick only gained an additional attack via that essentia, rather than a whole new 'trick'.


My point was, something with Incarnate levels will still be a better meldshaper than some schmoe who just has 12 extra feats to burn on meldshaping.

1.Still waiting for you to back up your point with an actual build example.

2."Better Meldshaper" as defined by what? Unless that meldshaping is actually getting you something unique, its like saying that the Adept has better spellcasting than the Warblade. Sure, you're right, but that doesn't stop the Warblade from being a blatantly better choice.

3.It takes 9 feats to replicate the meldshaping power of an Incarnate, minus the capacity difference, while Soulborn only takes 2. The versatility will take a lot longer to achieve, but that's

[dextercorvia]

1.Still waiting for you to back up your point with an actual build example.

2."Better Meldshaper" as defined by what? Unless that meldshaping is actually getting you something unique, its like saying that the Adept has better spellcasting than the Warblade. Sure, you're right, but that doesn't stop the Warblade from being a blatantly better choice.

3.It takes 9 feats to replicate the meldshaping power of an Incarnate, minus the capacity difference, while Soulborn only takes 2. The versatility will take a lot longer to achieve, but that's

You can mimic a sorcerer with 7 feats, excepting nothing. That makes Incarnate a stronger choice than sorcerer for class levels.

[Hazzardevil]

You can mimic a sorcerer with 7 feats, excepting nothing. That makes Incarnate a stronger choice than sorcerer for class levels.

How? This would mean that you can make a character that does everything in E6.

[Psyren]

Quick Divine Mind fix:

- Remove the word "Divine" and all religious fluff. Redact the sections on falling and deities (with a sharpie if necessary.) Rename to Battlemind, Zealot or similar.
- Alignment as Crusader.
- Increase BAB to full.
- Increase ML to -2 instead of -4. Adjust power acquisition accordingly. (1st-level powers at 3 instead of 5, etc.)
- Base PP as Psychic Rogue. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)
- Serenity at 2nd (Wis to saves.) Remove Divine Grace.
- Double psychic aura radius at each level. (10ft. at 1st, 20 ft. at 3rd etc. to a max of 100ft. at 19.)
- Grant 4th mantle at 18, keeping with existing progression.
- Bonus feat at 1, 4, then every 4 levels after (Fighter or Psionic.) 1,4,8,12,16,20.
- Remove Know (Religion.) Add Know (History) & Know (Nobility.)

A more in-depth fix will require tweaking the auras themselves.

[dextercorvia]

How? This would mean that you can make a character that does everything in E6.

First, I misspoke, you need 17 feats to do it fully. I gave him spells known, but not spell slots.

Magical Training
Practiced Spellcaster
Expanded Spell Knowledge x4 (E6 feat)
Expanded Caster Stamina x10 (slight overkill -- 9 leaves you short 1 1st and a couple of 0th level spells)
Obtain Familiar

You need a CL of 1 more -- I chose the Illumian Race Krau sigil for this, but the Caster Training E6 Feat would also work.

[Draz74]

Honestly, E6 isn't really any different from normal D&D until you start getting bonus feats instead of levels. Its only after that, that the variant really starts becoming distinct.

Not really. Sure, the PC rules are the same ... but the world they live in is very different.

In D&D, the movers and shakers of the world are Level 10+ (or 21+, in Forgotten Realms). In E6, they're Level 6.

In D&D, a Hill Giant is an ordinary mid-level mook. In E6, he's a monster that terrorizes a kingdom and makes the history books.

Magic Item demographics are different. Monster demographics are different. Character level distributions are different. The game is much more likely (in E6) to start at Level 1, rather than at Level 3-5.

My point is, you make it sound like getting an ability at Level 6 (like the ability to bind Crown Chakras) is pretty much the same as getting it at Level 2. That's just not true. The majority of E6 play happens in between those two thresholds.


You're the only one that said 'worthless'. I said "90% replicatable via feats"

I believe you were decrying the Fighter as well, which means I wasn't entirely responding to the 90%-comment.

But as concerns Incarnum, here's what you said:


Actually, considering that full meldshaping usefulness is attainable with feats, there's only 2 reasons to take any meldshaping class: +3 against dispels and totem chakra binds. For everything else, you can wing it with feats just fine. Which means that Soulborns and Incarnates suffer from the same problem that ACF-less Fighters do, that 90% of what they offer is simply faster feat acquisition.

The implication is that the +3 against dispels is the "10%" of what the Incarnate gets that is actually worth more than feats. I was merely pointing out that the Incarnate does, in fact, get another class feature in E6 that can't be replicated by feats.


I don't think there's a single soulmeld in the book that gains a 'trick' for having a three essentia rather than two. Even Dextercorvia's Manticore trick only gained an additional attack via that essentia, rather than a whole new 'trick'.

Hence why I added the qualifier "decent" to the word "trick." Extra essentia capacity doesn't get you another independent ability, no, but it can turn a crappy ability into a worthwhile one.

Is the difference as big as your example of +4d6 Skirmish damage? No, of course not, other than the Manticore Belt example. (And your tone here is dismissive of even that instance. If you don't think four high-damage attacks per round instead of three is significant, we should just end this conversation now, since you're simply determined to be wrong.) But the +4d6 Skirmish Damage isn't something you can attain at low levels or by only using three class levels, either.


1.Still waiting for you to back up your point with an actual build example.
Like I sad, others who are better versed in Incarnum could surely do this better than me.


2."Better Meldshaper" as defined by what? Unless that meldshaping is actually getting you something unique, its like saying that the Adept has better spellcasting than the Warblade. Sure, you're right, but that doesn't stop the Warblade from being a blatantly better choice.
That's a fair point. The problem is, I'm not really enough of an Incarnum master to understand what the Incarnate does better than other classes in any case (regardless of E6). Yet, intelligent people seem to think it's a decent Tier 3 class, and I trust them. And I know that essentia capacity per soulmeld is a big deal for it.

But I'll give a brief example. I believe Incarnates often perform the Skillmonkey role, yes? Using their Soulmelds to make up for their lack of skill points? By Level 6, they can gain bonuses of +8 to +12 to a big selection of skills, which is comparable with the bonuses a Rogue would get from her skill points.

So the Level 3 Expanded Capacity class feature could be giving an Incarnate an effective +2 bonus to the Spellcraft, UMD, Decipher Script, Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Balance, Escape Artist, Jump, Tumble, Gather Information, Search, and Sense Motive skills. Seems meaningful to me.


3.It takes 9 feats to replicate the meldshaping power of an Incarnate, minus the capacity difference, while Soulborn only takes 2. The versatility will take a lot longer to achieve, but that's

I have never been defending the viability of the Soulmeld, E6 or otherwise. I totally agree that it's better to make a Paladin or Barbarian or something and give it Incarnum feats, rather than playing a Soulborn.

But for the Incarnate 6, I count 11 feats required to duplicate its incarnum abilities, ignoring the capacity issue. Note that you can only take Bonus Essentia for 2 essentia once, then you have to pick up additional essentia one by one.

So that's 55000 XP required to make the Incarnate class "90% obsolete" in E6. Seems pretty significant to me.

[Godskook]

First, I misspoke, you need 17 feats to do it fully. I gave him spells known, but not spell slots.

Magical Training
Practiced Spellcaster
Expanded Spell Knowledge x4 (E6 feat)
Expanded Caster Stamina x10 (slight overkill -- 9 leaves you short 1 1st and a couple of 0th level spells)
Obtain Familiar

You need a CL of 1 more -- I chose the Illumian Race Krau sigil for this, but the Caster Training E6 Feat would also work.

1.Magical Training does *NOT* give you effective class levels, just a caster level. Mostly important for my later points.

2.While the text is in an iffy spot, Practiced Caster says "Choose a spellcasting class you possess". You're going against RAI on this one, even if RAW is less clear.

Points marked with an * are marked cause I'm operating on the article written at Enworld.com. If you're operating somewhere else that used different wording, the points may or may not be valid.

3*.You're taking 14 feats all called 'capstone' feats in the version of the E6 rules I'm looking at. I can't find text to support it, but that suggests that you're not allowed to take more than one of them.

4*.Both feats require actual class levels, by RAW, to work. You simply can't qualify with just Magical Training.

5*.Nothing you've got allows you to increase your spell levels, so as posted, your point only ever gets 0th level spells.

6.Magical Training is a regional feat from a setting specific book. On the spectrum of allowed sources, its just a little better than a Dragon feat.

7*.The feats are listed as suggestions, aka variants. Magical Training is from a setting specific book. Grabbing feats from multiple supplements, all printed after the original class is different than grabbing feats that all come from the same book the class was printed in. In the former case, DMs are likely to call cheese cause it isn't 'RAI', while in the latter, the feats were printed in the same book.

[dextercorvia]

1.Magical Training does *NOT* give you effective class levels, just a caster level. Mostly important for my later points.

2.While the text is in an iffy spot, Practiced Caster says "Choose a spellcasting class you possess". You're going against RAI on this one, even if RAW is less clear.

Points marked with an * are marked cause I'm operating on the article written at Enworld.com. If you're operating somewhere else that used different wording, the points may or may not be valid.

3*.You're taking 14 feats all called 'capstone' feats in the version of the E6 rules I'm looking at. I can't find text to support it, but that suggests that you're not allowed to take more than one of them.

4*.Both feats require actual class levels, by RAW, to work. You simply can't qualify with just Magical Training.

5*.Nothing you've got allows you to increase your spell levels, so as posted, your point only ever gets 0th level spells.

6.Magical Training is a regional feat from a setting specific book. On the spectrum of allowed sources, its just a little better than a Dragon feat.

7*.The feats are listed as suggestions, aka variants. Magical Training is from a setting specific book. Grabbing feats from multiple supplements, all printed after the original class is different than grabbing feats that all come from the same book the class was printed in. In the former case, DMs are likely to call cheese cause it isn't 'RAI', while in the latter, the feats were printed in the same book.

1.Magical Training gives you effective class levels, it actually doesn't reference CL specifically at all.

I'm using a pdf of the rules that looked official. It has neither of them listed as capstone feats, neither require class levels, and they both have the, you may take this feat as many times....

The spellcaster capstone is the 4th level spell feat to my knowledge.

[Godskook]

1.Magical Training gives you effective class levels, it actually doesn't reference CL specifically at all.

Quote text, please, cause I've read the feat 3-4 times by now and I'm not seeing anything to that effect.


I'm using a pdf of the rules that looked official. It has neither of them listed as capstone feats, neither require class levels, and they both have the, you may take this feat as many times....

Linky?

[dextercorvia]

Quote text, please, cause I've read the feat 3-4 times by now and I'm not seeing anything to that effect.

It was quoted in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12043520&postcount=43) the other day. Being treated as a Sorcerer of your arcane spellcaster level -- minimum 1st to determine level-based variables of the spells you cast, does grant you a CL, it also qualifies you for Practiced Spellcaster.


Linky?

E6 PDF (http://esix.pbworks.com/f/E6v041.pdf)

The feats in question have a CL requirement, or a Character level requirement, but none of them require spellcaster levels.

[Godskook]

It was quoted in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12043520&postcount=43) the other day. Being treated as a Sorcerer of your arcane spellcaster level -- minimum 1st to determine level-based variables of the spells you cast, does grant you a CL, it also qualifies you for Practiced Spellcaster.

That text grants you the benefit for exactly one purpose: level-based variables of spells you cast. This gives you no benefit towards selecting feats.


E6 PDF (http://esix.pbworks.com/f/E6v041.pdf)

The feats in question have a CL requirement, or a Character level requirement, but none of them require spellcaster levels.

Gawd, those feats are poorly worded.

[dextercorvia]

That text grants you the benefit for exactly one purpose: level-based variables of spells you cast. This gives you no benefit towards selecting feats.

If you read it as such, then you merely have to raise your CL through other means.

[avr]

In case it matters to anyone, the guy who came up with E6 stated that most of his games took place at level 6 + feats, that he got the level 1-5 portion of the game out of the way as quickly as possible.

[Draz74]

In case it matters to anyone, the guy who came up with E6 stated that most of his games took place at level 6 + feats, that he got the level 1-5 portion of the game out of the way as quickly as possible.

Huh. Link, please?

[avr]

Sorry, it was a while back. On ENWorld forums, but I didn't keep a link.