optimization challenge

[kulosle]

so my DM is restricting us to human with no templates, only tier 4 and lower classes, no arcane casters or full devine casters, low magic gear, nothing costing more than a +1 bonus, no knowledge skills besides local and religion, and being fourth level. and we drew straws and i'm the one who has to have trapfinding

now there has to be a way of making a character that doesn't suck under these circumstances. any ideas?

[Vandicus]

That is... awfully restricted. Off the top of my head I believe you're only allowed to play three classes(ninja, rogue, scout) unless you find a way to get trapfinding with a non arcane tier 4 or lower class.

My personal inclination is to use either a Swift Hunter or UMD rogue in this situation.

[Flickerdart]

Human Scout 3/Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 with Extra Rage. Take your next level in Ranger and your sixth level in Scout again, picking up Improved Skirmish and Swift Hunter, take the rest of your levels in Ranger.

Your battle strategy will be Pouncing with two weapons, each dealing Skirmish damage. Your Skirmish damage will be awesome because Swift Hunter stacks Ranger levels with Scout levels to calculate it, and you can deal Skirmish damage against Favored Enemies even if they are immune to crits. You have full BAB, 6 skill points for all levels but one, Trapfnding, spells eventually.

[suhkkaet]

Are the bonus feats as listed under the Generic Classes in UA allowed? (I.e. some class features available as feats)
If yes, you can always just take the Trap Sense feat (which combines trap sense and trapfinding into a feat).

Also.. I don't exactly know where generic classes rank on the tier list, but are they allowed? (I like 'em, for some reason)

[Heatwizard]

You could take Shape Soulmeld(Thief Gloves) and Open Least Chakra(Hands), but that won't actually give you Trapfinding until sixth.

[0nimaru]

First and foremost, the entirety of your post screams "breaking the spirit while following the word of" which gives off an unappealing vibe. Every party member will be under the same restrictions and the Tier system is there to suggest party balance, not force you to play "sucky" classes.

That said, your options are quite clear. You can be a rogue, spellthief, or ninja.
Given those options I would go with rogue. Then you need to choose which direction to take it in, which is explored in depths in various rogue handbooks.

Off the top of the head, you will still have UMD. Will wands be available? If there are +1 weapons around, then there are either some casters or artificers making them and there is no reason that they can't make some level 1-4 wands for you to UMD. That would put you a head above any of the other T4s who don't have magic.

[Person_Man]

I think your DM is a jerk for forcing such limited options on you. But given your parameters, your options for Trapfinding are Scout, Ninja, Rogue, Spellthief, Beguiler, Psychic Rogue, Factotum, Incarnate, Barbarian, and Ranger.

Psychic Rogue, Beguiler, and Factotum are Tier 3, so they're out.

Spellthief is too dependent on magic, and the core Ninja sucks.

Incarnate is considered by many DMs to be Tier 4, but if you really really know what you're doing, it's in Tier 3. So it would probably be your best option. But it's also magic-ish, so your DM may not allow it.

Barbarian and Ranger can get Trapfinding via Alternate Class Features in Dungeonscape, which most DMs will allow, but some won't.

That leaves just the Scout or Rogue as definite options.

Given those options, what is your choice.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

so my DM is restricting us to human with no templates, only tier 4 and lower classes, no arcane casters or full devine casters, low magic gear, nothing costing more than a +1 bonus, no knowledge skills besides local and religion, and being fourth level. and we drew straws and i'm the one who has to have trapfinding

now there has to be a way of making a character that doesn't suck under these circumstances. any ideas?

Rogue2/Warlock12/Chameleon2

Congratulations, despite the fact that you're not allowed any magic gear, you're still your own MagicMart. You don't cast any spells at all, yet can make and use nearly any item in the game. You also have decent battlefield control options, and if you go HFW, you've got some decent damage output as well.

In addition, you're a Rogue, so you have Trapfinding, Evasion, and now you have the ability to make and take 10 on UMD checks on Knock wands.

Don't forget Able Learner. It's the feat that makes this build a viable trapspringer even late in the build.

[Gavinfoxx]

So he banned Adept and Urban Adept and Religious Adept, then?

I KNOW!!

Nightstalker, Races of Ansalon. It's high tier 4.

[Vandicus]

For clarity, did you mean no arcane casting whatsoever, or no full arcane casters?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, as a bit of pedantry...

Requesting help with a build does not equal optimization challenge. You want an example of an optimization challenge? Check out the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge. THAT is an optimization challenge. Test of Spite was an Optimization Challenge.

This thread is a request to help build a decent character while being fettered by random arbitrary restrictions. Which is not the same thing.

Mind you, I still don't mind helping, but there are others who will really get upset with you over this distinction.

[Gavinfoxx]

I double checked. Straight Nightstalker will fit what you want PERFECTLY!

[The Underlord]

Try Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 7/Bear Warrior 1/Warshaper 5 if you can use the alternate class feature that lets you gain trapfinding. If not,Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1/Rogue 8/ Bear Warrior 1/Warshaper 5. The key here is warshaper from CW. The first level ability allows you to make large, if not infinite number of natural attacks that deal damage as if you were collosal given that you have enough time. Bear warrior lets you qualify for warshaper. Bear wawrrior requires rage so that is why you have it on the second build(and pounce is invaluable). And when you add shocktrooper, things just get silly.

[Eldariel]

Barbarian/Ranger with perhaps a small Scout-dip for Swift Hunter (not obligatory but an option) would work real well. Ranger gets Trapfinding (through Trap Expert ACF), as does Scout. There's also the Trapkiller Barbarian which is just hilarious.

Straight Rogue is a fine option; the class is real solid though obviously hurt by the lack of magic items. But still, Rogue gets handy high level abilities (Hide in Plain Sight from Wilderness Rogue at 13), decent base abilities (take Penetrating Strike) and has a solid chassis.

[Metahuman1]

There is a first level spell in Spell compendium for Sorcerer/wizard that lets them create a dagger made of force that automatically sets up flanking and attacks a desired target. Get wands of it. Or if you want to be really mean, make a trap of it and put it into your characters weapon sheath. That sets up flanking for sneak attacking. Also invest in Wands/traps of spells that let you get around sneak attack immunity's.


Now take Rouge and go TWF. Get wands or traps as described above of divine power for full BAB. Maybe take a learn stance feat so you can get Shadow blade strike for dex to damage. Daring outlaw and three levels of Swashbuckler and a one level dip in Spirit Lion totem Barbarian with Frenzy (From Cityscape.) instead of rage would be helpful. Oh, and Able learner would be good too.

For extra Able learner abuse, take a level in Expert at level one and pick ten skills you KNOW your gonna get most mileage out of. And UMD/Tumble/Search/Disable Device are obviously on the list. Other nice ones are Bluff, Forgery, Intimidate, Iaijutsu Focus, Handle Animal, Craft: Poison, Sleight of hand, Disguise, and Diplomacy. Grab as desired.

Feats might look something like this if you don't take able learner.



H: Able Learner.
1st: TWF
3rd: Learn Stance.
6th: Improved TWF
9th: Shadow blade strike.
12th:Greater TWF.
15th: Daring outlaw.
18th:


If he let's you take a flaw with out it destroying you, get Extra rage for more Frenzy use at first level. If he let's you take a second one, get Learn Stance at first level as well and Shadow Blade strike at third and Daring Outlaw at 9th. That leaves your fifteenth and eighteenth level feats open to do what you will with. I like Leadership and Improved Cohort myself. If he won't allow flaws or more then one flaw, maybe just take Leadership.

Build can be sped up by Dropping Swashbuckler and Daring Outlaw, but then you have to drop free weapons Finesse.







Alternatively, Trapkiller Spirit Lion totem Barbarian with a 10 Wis and a 12-14 in Int and Dex and Maxed out Con would be viable. If you Jack up your will save and get a luck reroll or two, Frenzy Berserker would be a good thing to PRC into. Alternatively, Bear warrior 1 and then Warshaper makes for nice Natural attacks. Or Fist of the Forest and maybe a bit of Kensai with a fighter and/or feat rogue dip would be good for an unarmed combatant.

Hope some of that helps.

[Tr011]

so my DM is restricting us to human with no templates, only tier 4 and lower classes, no arcane casters or full devine casters, low magic gear, nothing costing more than a +1 bonus, no knowledge skills besides local and religion, and being fourth level. and we drew straws and i'm the one who has to have trapfinding

now there has to be a way of making a character that doesn't suck under these circumstances. any ideas?

Basically you have four things to do:
1. Don't rely too much on gear, since it's restricted.
2. No casting, since it's restricted.
3. Get trapfinding.
4. Don't suck.

There are several ways to do this. One of them is building a good, mundane, rogue-like char. Another one would be ignoring all of the above by playing either a Psion with Able Learner and Arcane Thieves' Tools (MiC) or (for more ranks and less gear-dependency) playing a Rogue 1/Psion 3 with Practised Manifester (more PowerPoints, higher manifester level) and Able Learner (since you are rogue 1 you have the max max ranks in most of the skills and since you are int-based you are quiet a good skill monkey and you can still rock via psionics).
Obviously, this is just making the most out of the RAW your DM gave you, depending on him he will either allow your char teeth grinding, or he will ban psionics, too. But if he allows it, you are going to rock!

[dspeyer]

How about a twf rogue/ranger who has raised some leopards from cub for flanking buddies?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Basically you have four things to do:
1. Don't rely too much on gear, since it's restricted.
2. No casting, since it's restricted.
3. Get trapfinding.
4. Don't suck.

There are several ways to do this. One of them is building a good, mundane, rogue-like char. Another one would be ignoring all of the above by playing either a Psion with Able Learner and Arcane Thieves' Tools (MiC) or (for more ranks and less gear-dependency) playing a Rogue 1/Psion 3 with Practised Manifester (more PowerPoints, higher manifester level) and Able Learner (since you are rogue 1 you have the max max ranks in most of the skills and since you are int-based you are quiet a good skill monkey and you can still rock via psionics).
Obviously, this is just making the most out of the RAW your DM gave you, depending on him he will either allow your char teeth grinding, or he will ban psionics, too. But if he allows it, you are going to rock!

Doesn't matter if psionics aren't banned. "Tier 4" doesn't mean "1st level in tier 4 class". Because that's tier 2.

And as Schneeky said, this isn't a challenge. This is a request.

[Valameer]

I just want to echo the guy that said optimizing this seems to be against the spirit of these limitations in the first place. In fact, it sounds like you got all these restrictions by powergaming above the DMs level of comfort in the first place.

Unless of course your DM gave you these restrictions then added: "Alright, now I want to see you all optimize the heck out of this." In that case, couldn't you just go rogue 1 then build a charger? Or some other tried-and-true optimized build. Perhaps a horizon tripper.

Personally, I'd go rogue 1 then adept x and try to rock use magic device. It's a divine caster, not a full caster, but it's got some good spells. You're party is going to need some magical support with these limitations, so even your stunted spell list is going to look good by comparison. Bonus points for using an npc class.

Oh, and try to enjoy the low powered campaign. Surprisingly it's just as fun as high powered play, in different ways.

[Snowbluff]

I wasn't even aware their were Tier 4 or lower Divine Casters. :smallconfused:

No Warmage either, what a pickle.

Uh, Fighter is tier 4 I think. Someone could probably break that for you. Maybe Power Attack, Leap Attack? Or maybe some Spiked Chain cheese?

Seriously, though. I don't think the DM would appreciate this sort of thing. Maybe he has alot of roleplay in mind. If not, get in a new campaign, since an fighting focused campaign with horribly maimed rules and no spells will get dull.

Very.



Fast.

:smallfrown:

[Lans]

Go Evil/Law Incarnate, with low magic items its ability to pull out a +3 weapon will rock solid.

[Tr011]

Doesn't matter if psionics aren't banned. "Tier 4" doesn't mean "1st level in tier 4 class". Because that's tier 2.

And as Schneeky said, this isn't a challenge. This is a request.

Ok, but you all know that what you are about to do is taking tier 4 classes to an upper level (so you end up Tier 3 or Tier 2).
If you want to outshine your mates in the most obvious way: Go Frenzied Berserker with the already named Trapfinding ACF. Dip some Fighter for bonus feats. Maybe even dip Feat-Rogue (extra skill-points at level 1, extra feats).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Rogue 4/ Warlock 1/ Assassin 5/ Arcane Trickster 10, use the Spell Hand feat in CA to meet the Mage Hand prerequisite of Arcane Trickster, and apply AT casting increases to Warlock. That gets full sneak attack and a decent Eldritch Blast with which to deliver it, though it gets most of the Warlock goodies after 10th. You could switch it to Rogue 3/ Spellthief 1/ Warlock 1/ Assassin, and with Master Spellthief you would have a considerably better caster level in both Warlock and Assassin, and you could cast Assassin spells in light armor. Be sure to get the feat Darkstalker, and take See the Unseen so you'll actually be able to see in conditions that will allow you to sneak. I'd get the Warlock level at your 2nd or 3rd character level, to keep up your skill ranks before taking Assassin.


Wilder isn't on the tier list... Rogue 1/ Wilder 4/ Psychic Assassin 6/ Slayer 9. TWF with Mind Cripple, and be sure to get Able Learner and Practiced Manifester. Craft Psionic Arms/Armor and Craft Universal Item would be highly recommended if using magic/psionics transparency.

[kulosle]

well psions were banned as well, but soulmelds weren't. i don't have much experience with them as i just got the book.
i think i'm just going to go with the mundane item skill monkey rogue idea.
thanks for all the help and i'll keep in mind the wording of help for a build request instead of optimization challenge.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You want to break the game completely mundanely?

Fighter (Zhentarim Soldier, Dungeoncrasher, and Thug variants) 9.

Take the skill trick (from Complete Scoundrel) Never Outnumbered.

Take the feat Imperious Command.

You now lock down all opponents with an intimidation check as a swift action. Depending on how Imperious Command and Extended Intimidation interact, you might get away with locking everything down for 24 hours, but your GM is probably going to rule that the language from Imperious Command supersedes the language from Extended Intimidation from Zhent 5.

Alternately:

Rogue1/Samurai10/Exemplar1/Ronin (to cap). Only problem with this build is that if you want to do anything other than lock people down, you will need the Fearful armor enhancement from DotUD to demoralize as a Move action, rather than a Standard. However, you get to Take 10 on Intimidate checks, meaning you are forcing them to make an impossible HD check or be locked down.

If Meldshaping is on the table, you've got possible Shadowpouncing available to you through Blink Shirt to Totem chakra.

[Person_Man]

well psions were banned as well, but soulmelds weren't. i don't have much experience with them as i just got the book.
i think i'm just going to go with the mundane item skill monkey rogue idea.
thanks for all the help and i'll keep in mind the wording of help for a build request instead of optimization challenge.

To keep things dirt simple for you:

Human Incarnate 4

By default (prior to feats, magic items, or racial abilities) that will give you 4 soulmelds (which you can change every morning, in case you get bored with a specific combo), 1 chakra bind (special ability dependent on binding certain soulmelds into certain slots), and 6 essentia points (soul energy which improves the effectiveness of all soulmelds and some chakra binds), and an essentia capacity (maximum amount of essentia you can invest in a soulmeld) of 2. Shifting essentia between soulmelds is a Swift Action.

Suggested Low Level Soulmelds:

Mantle of Flame: 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia invested) retributive Fire damage every time anyone hits you in melee.

Astral Vembraces: 2 + (2 * essentia invested) Damage Reduction/Magic.

Lightning Gauntlets: 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia invested) electricity damage. Although that doesn't sound like much, keep in mind that it can be used every turn, and it's a touch attack. 3d6 each round with 90%ish effectiveness is fairly effective at low levels.

Theft Gloves: 2 + (2 * essentia invested) bonus to Sleight of Hands, Open Lock, and Disable Device.

Necrocarnum Circlet: Detect Undead at will. Mostly useless by itself, but you'll need to shape the soulmeld if you want to use it as a chakra bind.


Suggested Chakra Binds: Theft Gloves to Hands chakra: Provides Trapfinding.

Necrocarnum Circlet: Infinitely replaceable Necrocarnum Zombie! (A template in the back of Magic of Incarnum - it's much stronger then a normal Zombie). You can only have 1 at a time, and it's hit die are limited by your meldshaper (Incarnate) level. But it's actually a far better Trapfinder then Theft Gloves. Just have your minion open every door and chest for you, walk on every square in a room, while you stand way back. If it dies, just replace it with any recently dead corpse (from your enemies), and you're set.

[dextercorvia]

Have everyone roll a Truenamer. Maybe the DM will feel comfortable challenging you then.

[nedz]

Have everyone roll a Truenamer. Maybe the DM will feel comfortable challenging you then.

No, no: everyone should play a monk.:smallcool:
Just need a way to give them Trapfinding ?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

To keep things dirt simple for you:

Human Incarnate 4

By default (prior to feats, magic items, or racial abilities) that will give you 4 soulmelds (which you can change every morning, in case you get bored with a specific combo), 1 chakra bind (special ability dependent on binding certain soulmelds into certain slots), and 6 essentia points (soul energy which improves the effectiveness of all soulmelds and some chakra binds), and an essentia capacity (maximum amount of essentia you can invest in a soulmeld) of 2. Shifting essentia between soulmelds is a Swift Action.

Suggested Low Level Soulmelds:

Mantle of Flame: 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia invested) retributive Fire damage every time anyone hits you in melee.

Astral Vembraces: 2 + (2 * essentia invested) Damage Reduction/Magic. Bluesteel Bracers gives bonus to Initiative and attack/damage


Lightning Gauntlets: 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia invested) electricity damage. Although that doesn't sound like much, keep in mind that it can be used every turn, and it's a touch attack. 3d6 each round with 90%ish effectiveness is fairly effective at low levels.

Theft Gloves: 2 + (2 * essentia invested) bonus to Sleight of Hands, Open Lock, and Disable Device. Pick one or the other. They both shape to Hand slot.


Necrocarnum Circlet: Detect Undead at will. Mostly useless by itself, but you'll need to shape the soulmeld if you want to use it as a chakra bind. Alignment restriction. If you aren't evil, you'll need the feat Necrocarnate Apprentice just to shape it.


Suggested Chakra Binds: Theft Gloves to
Hands chakra: Provides Trapfinding.

Necrocarnum Circlet: Infinitely replaceable Necrocarnum Zombie! (A template in the back of Magic of Incarnum - it's much stronger then a normal Zombie). You can only have 1 at a time, and it's hit die are limited by your meldshaper (Incarnate) level. But it's actually a far better Trapfinder then Theft Gloves. Just have your minion open every door and chest for you, walk on every square in a room, while you stand way back. If it dies, just replace it with any recently dead corpse (from your enemies), and you're set.

Best part about the necrocarnum zombie is that it has its own essentia pool which it can invest in its defenses. If you don't mind being Neutral Evil, of course.

Personally, I'd suggest Lucky Dice. Since it's a luck bonus, it explicitly stacks with itself... you could very easily get a LOT of bonuses that way, since you can use it as a swift action every round.

[Xtomjames]

I say screw it and go straight out Warlock. Warlocks are classified as Tier 4 but if played right they're nearly a Tier 2. You get detect magic at will which will foil most of the magical traps that will be used and at 4th level should have access to one of the dispel magic invocations available to the Warlock.

You can then use Flaws and Anti-Feats to gain extra feats to boost your character's abilities.

Though, if he's only limited you to Tier 4 classes, and not to books per se, then you have some other fun options to look at. Not to mention you can get Goggles of Trapfinding which give you when worn the rogue ability for very cheap (400 gp), or you could take the Trapfinding Feat (though technically 3.0) http://hastur.net/wiki/Trapfinding_(D%26D_feat), or you can take the feat Tactile TrapSmith (Complete Adventurer p122)

Another option is to play a Psionic Rogue; http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

In fact this combined with a ring of anti-magic would be very affective.

Lastly you can play a Lurk which isn't really defined in the Tier system but appears to be a Tier 4 (at least to me).

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

Finally there is always the "Timberrogue" that is, a human sized log with hand holds that can be used as a battering ram, or rolled down a hall to set off suspect traps.

***
Items: Now your GM has limited your items to only +1 at best, but you can bypass this by combining items of the same +1 value to greater affect.

If you get a base Bag of Holding this is only a +1 item technically speaking (each type as a bonus equal to type, so a Type II is a +2) this with rope and some anvils tucked in side is a nasty surprise weapon.

(Tie rope onto inside of bag when turned inside out, turn it right side in and put some anvils in. Throw the bag above the unsuspecting enemy and hold the rope, allowing the bag to turn inside out and drop said anvils on to the enemy.)

A Decanter of Endless Water is also very useful at low levels and is again in your magic item range arsenal.

Don't forget the Adamantine Rapier or short sword. Masterwork thieves tools, and Ioun Stones if you can afford it.

An Anti-Magic ring or orb or object will be to expensive at 4th level but at later levels could be a good investment.

***
My suggested track is Psionic Rogue 10 Psionic Artificer 10.
Feats: If you go the psionic rogue route which I very much suggest, go with a few flaws to gain a few extra feats. These feats should include Extra Power Points, Psionic Meditation, Psionic Weapon, Rapid Metabolism.

Further feats to consider: Rapid Metabolism, Unconditional Power, Up the Walls, Mind over Body, Craft Universal Item, Deadly Precision, Expanded Knowledge.

[Tyndmyr]

so my DM is restricting us to human with no templates, only tier 4 and lower classes, no arcane casters or full devine casters, low magic gear, nothing costing more than a +1 bonus, no knowledge skills besides local and religion, and being fourth level. and we drew straws and i'm the one who has to have trapfinding

now there has to be a way of making a character that doesn't suck under these circumstances. any ideas?

Human Truenamer. Specifically does not count as arcane or divine, definitely below tier 4, requires no knowledge skills to make work.

Trapfinding is overrated...but if you insist, dip Factotum if allowed. It gets you trapfinding, it's int based, and the synergy with truenamer is pretty awesome.It is tier 3, but your dm may allow it in conjunction with the notoriously low tier truenamer.

Your feats are as follows: Spell Focus: Truenaming, Ancestral something or other(can't recall exact name, but basically magical item for free. Obviously, you want the Amulet of the silver tounge(ToM), Favored in Guild(ravenloft). Your guild will obviously be the truenamer organization, since you'll be taking that anyhow. That's all three feats at your level, for a total of +5 truenaming, bumping to +15 when you get your amulet. Plus the normal boost from your org. Plus any boosts from int, maxed skill ranks, and if you have a dip in factotum, the usual boost there.

Also, buy a masterwork item of truenaming. 50 gold for a non magical item is affordable in even the most low wealth of games. If you can afford anything additional, do so. Remember, you literally can't avoid training UMD with your extra limited class skill list, so anything magical you DO find...you can likely use.

Pick up quicken asap, and proceed to rock out.

Edit: oh, lest I forget, you can afford an item familiar for the cost of a +1 weapon. Normally, I wouldn't venture to such levels of cheese, but when you get ludicrous with the restrictions, I feel pretty ok about playing the same game back. In fact, it can also BE a +1 weapon in addition to being an item familiar. No need for extra cost.

I promise that, despite being an exceptionally low tier class with an unexceptional race...this char will wreck things. A mere +22 is all that's needed to autohit a CR 4 opponent at this level. Given +4 from int, +8 from ranks, +5 from feats, +2 from mw item, a possible +8 from item familiar, you're pretty obviously crushing it for a while even before you factor in amulet, organization and possible factotum dip. My first choice is to just ditch the trap finding entirely, and replace the rogue with a rock and a stick.

[kulosle]

so apparently what he ment is soulmelds are allowed but the classes aren't, so feats and what not, and as previously state no psions :smallfrown:
he also said that i don't actually have to have the trapfinding class feature but i'm responsible for making sure that people don't die by traps, he's really found of his traps. trap sense feat is allowed, maximum of two flaws.

is the incarnum zombie still a possibility with only feats? it doesn't appear to be and i'd probably have to waist a lot of feats if it was.

question about truenamers. if they are so easily optimized why aren't they a higher tier? cause that sounds like a pretty game destroying build.

[Xtomjames]

Truenamer isn't worth it at low levels, unless of course you fluff it a bit. There is nothing in the Tome of Magic that says you can't learn the truenames of spells from various scrolls and then be able to command them. You just want to max out the Truename skill and your Knowledge Skills as much as possible so you can actually learn the spells' truenames.

[Flickerdart]

Truenamer isn't worth it at low levels, unless of course you fluff it a bit. There is nothing in the Tome of Magic that says you can't learn the truenames of spells from various scrolls and then be able to command them. You just want to max out the Truename skill and your Knowledge Skills as much as possible so you can actually learn the spells' truenames.
There's nothing that says you can, either. This is at best, a house rule.

[Curious]

so apparently what he ment is soulmelds are allowed but the classes aren't, so feats and what not, and as previously state no psions :smallfrown:
he also said that i don't actually have to have the trapfinding class feature but i'm responsible for making sure that people don't die by traps, he's really found of his traps. trap sense feat is allowed, maximum of two flaws.

is the incarnum zombie still a possibility with only feats? it doesn't appear to be and i'd probably have to waist a lot of feats if it was.

question about truenamers. if they are so easily optimized why aren't they a higher tier? cause that sounds like a pretty game destroying build.

It's such a low tier because without such levels of optimization, it just doesn't work. Even with the levels of optimization prescribed by Tyndmyr, you'll still essentially be playing a tier 3-ish character, not one as game-breaking as a wizard, or even a sorceror.

[Tyndmyr]

so apparently what he ment is soulmelds are allowed but the classes aren't, so feats and what not, and as previously state no psions :smallfrown:
he also said that i don't actually have to have the trapfinding class feature but i'm responsible for making sure that people don't die by traps, he's really found of his traps. trap sense feat is allowed, maximum of two flaws.

is the incarnum zombie still a possibility with only feats? it doesn't appear to be and i'd probably have to waist a lot of feats if it was.

question about truenamers. if they are so easily optimized why aren't they a higher tier? cause that sounds like a pretty game destroying build.

It's not really game destroying at that level...it's a very solid caster build that can heal fairly effectively, dish out reliable damage, and has a few non combat applications. Note that many levels only get you one additional utterance known...and even though most of these have two distinct usages, that's still a notable limit on powers known.

They really do belong in a higher tier, though. I would much rather play one than say, a barbarian, and a barb isn't bad. They do require a certain level of optimization, but it's literally just boosting truenaming. Thats it. Not doing that is like not buying your barb a weapon. Your effectiveness goes through the floor.

If two flaws are allowed, I'd blow one on trap sense if allowed, and another on Able Learner. Truenamer lacks a great skill list if knowledges are so limited...but if you're int based and human anyhow, you might as well embrace the fact that you're a halfway decent skill monkey with Able Learner. You're basically a replacement for a blaster caster and a moderately decent skill monkey, and have some healing on the side. It's a very versatile char given how limited the circumstances are.

[kulosle]

okay so even warlock is not allowed. ugh so many restrictions. i'm going with the truenamer thanks alot for the help you guys. i don't think i could of made a halfway decent character under said circumstances.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

okay so even warlock is not allowed. ugh so many restrictions. i'm going with the truenamer thanks alot for the help you guys. i don't think i could of made a halfway decent character under said circumstances.

Go Factorum and do everything.

Edit: Perhaps I should explain:

1) Have every skill available to you, with the ability to boost skill checks ridiculously.

2) Have obnoxious damage output by doing the above with Iajitsu Focus (See also: The Habedasher)

3) Break the action economy by level 8. And by break, I mean REALLY break it. This combines with #1 and #2 for potentially game-breaking damage output.

4) Have a few, select SLA's, including such gems as Grease, Knock, and Prestidigitation.

[Flickerdart]

Go Factorum and do everything.
Factotum is T3.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Factotum is T3.

*muttermuttermumblegrumble*

Pull a Takahashi no Onisan. Lockdown all opponents not Mindless. As a move action. Every round.

[Provengreil]

No, no: everyone should play a monk.:smallcool:
Just need a way to give them Trapfinding ?

it's called movement.


*SNAP!..."Found another one!"

[kulosle]

okay so i told the DM what i wanted to do. AND HE THREW THE GAUNTLET DOWN! he said that i couldn't stand playing an ascetic stalker (referring to the feat that combines monk and ninja in the Complete Scoundrel). CHALLENGE ACCEPTED GOOD SIR.
just one problem. i've never played a ninja. so in what way does combining two of the worst classes make you less lame?

[hex0]

Human Scout 3/Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 with Extra Rage. Take your next level in Ranger and your sixth level in Scout again, picking up Improved Skirmish and Swift Hunter, take the rest of your levels in Ranger.

Your battle strategy will be Pouncing with two weapons, each dealing Skirmish damage. Your Skirmish damage will be awesome because Swift Hunter stacks Ranger levels with Scout levels to calculate it, and you can deal Skirmish damage against Favored Enemies even if they are immune to crits. You have full BAB, 6 skill points for all levels but one, Trapfnding, spells eventually.

This seem the best bet. Better with Mystic Ranger if possible and FE: Arcanists (and the Mageslayer feats).

[nedz]

okay so i told the DM what i wanted to do. AND HE THREW THE GAUNTLET DOWN! he said that i couldn't stand playing an ascetic stalker (referring to the feat that combines monk and ninja in the Complete Scoundrel). CHALLENGE ACCEPTED GOOD SIR.
just one problem. i've never played a ninja. so in what way does combining two of the worst classes make you less lame?

Wait ! You did what ?

One of the ways of reducing Monk MAD is to take the Kung Fu Genious Feat so you can dump Wis for Int and get more skill points into the bargain. This doesn't appear to work with the Ninja Wis to AC or Wis to Ki Pool.
So we have some negative synergy here already.

I'm sure its only going to get worse from here.

[ExtravagantEvil]

okay so i told the DM what i wanted to do. AND HE THREW THE GAUNTLET DOWN! he said that i couldn't stand playing an ascetic stalker (referring to the feat that combines monk and ninja in the Complete Scoundrel). CHALLENGE ACCEPTED GOOD SIR.
just one problem. i've never played a ninja. so in what way does combining two of the worst classes make you less lame?

It doesn't. Not from what I've heard.
Also, looks like your build just got...
MAD :smallcool:
*YEEEEEEAAAAAH!!*

In all seriousness, the only thing I could think to do is play the movement up to 11. Forget entirely about Flurry, and just play reconaissace and pick up Wall Running Skill Tricks and Wall Jump from Complete Scoundrel, Dark Stalker is a must here. I'm not well versed an optimizer but these are my musings :smallsmile:. Best of luck :smallsmile:.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

okay so i told the DM what i wanted to do. AND HE THREW THE GAUNTLET DOWN! he said that i couldn't stand playing an ascetic stalker (referring to the feat that combines monk and ninja in the Complete Scoundrel). CHALLENGE ACCEPTED GOOD SIR.
just one problem. i've never played a ninja. so in what way does combining two of the worst classes make you less lame?

Okay... it's not the absolute worst thing that could happen... I think...

So, let's see, how do we pull this off...

First off, let's look at the classes we have to work with... that would be in the PhB and in CAdv.

Well, good news is that you only need to take one level of Ninja to qualify for the feat. The bad news is that you want MORE ninja, and less monk.

There's a couple of ways you can do this. Your GM said that Soulmelds are allowed, but not meldshaping clases? Great, we can use that too.

Here's what we do:

First off, Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws and Open Least Chakra (Hands). Now you've got Pounce with your unarmed attacks. This makes the build *MUCH* more viable.

Second: We're going to be hitting hard, hitting fast, and making damn sure that there's nothing nearby when we've ended the turn. So, Sudden Strike is your damage increaser of choice. That means opponents need to be denied Dex bonus to AC. It's a little more inconvenient than Sneak Attack, unfortunately, but hey... it works.

Now what we need is some way of making all opponents denied dex bonus to AC.

Winning Initiative is a good way for the first round. But after that, it tends to... er... not be so good.

Invisibility is good for the first attack, but not for subsequent attacks, and since we're leveraging flurry, we're wanting subsequent attacks. Still, at least it's a swift action as a Ki ability. Now, once you hit Ninja 10, that becomes Ethereal. Which means you've enabled Sudden Strike against anything that can't see invisibility. Until then, we have to get more... creative.

Now then, until you get your first iterative, you've got all the tools you need. You hide and pounce for the first attack, then swift-action invisibility and attack for the flurry attack, and you're good.

From there, you'll need a way to make opponents flat-footed. Here's some options:

1) Marbles. Make an opponent make a balance check. While the balance check is easy to pass... the act of making a balance check with less than 5 ranks in Balance makes them flat-footed.

2) If an ally ends up with a Wand of Grease, this works too.

3) Not being seen. If an opponent is Blinded, this works. So, anything that can blind an opponent is good. Glitterdust is the magical version, others can tell you better methods of mundanely doing this.

Does this give you any ideas?

[hex0]

1) Marbles. Make an opponent make a balance check. While the balance check is easy to pass... the act of making a balance check with less than 5 ranks in Balance makes them flat-footed.


Can you throw a mix of marbles and caltrops? :smallwink:

Since this starts at 4th, I think Ninja 2/Monk 2 would be better. Evasion and two Bonus feats (one of which can be Ascetic Stalker.

+1 for the two soulmeld feats though.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Can you throw a mix of marbles and caltrops? :smallwink:

Since this starts at 4th, I think Ninja 2/Monk 2 would be better. Evasion and two Bonus feats (one of which can be Ascetic Stalker.

+1 for the two soulmeld feats though.

Need Ki Strike (Magic) for the feat, which is Monk4.

So Monk4/Ninja x... haven't thought about what PrC's to use yet... probably something that advances precision-based damage output. Maybe something with maneuverability. I'd almost say Shadowdancer, but the feat investment is...

wait...

Cobra Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) discipline Monk gets Dodge and Mobility as bonus feats. Combat Reflexes is easy enough to pick up. That's the feat prereqs for Shadowdancer. One-level dip nets you HiPS, which lets you run around in stealth a LOT easier.

[Metahuman1]

What about taking spring attack, Decisive strike and Dungeon Crash Fighter 2? Aren't there feats for jumping and attacking? Would that let you then run in, hit him with a decisive strike while mid air form jumping, Bulls rush him into the ground, and deal Monk damage + Sudden strike + Dungeon Crasher Damage?


I have no idea, I don't normally actually use monk for more then a 2 level dip on unarmed builds. I like my unarmed swordsage.

[JaronK]

so my DM is restricting us to human with no templates, only tier 4 and lower classes, no arcane casters or full devine casters, low magic gear, nothing costing more than a +1 bonus, no knowledge skills besides local and religion, and being fourth level. and we drew straws and i'm the one who has to have trapfinding

now there has to be a way of making a character that doesn't suck under these circumstances. any ideas?

This isn't an optimization challenge. You just want help building a character.

Anyway, obviously the way to overpower it would be Vow of Poverty with Tactile Trapsmith (yes, VoP is overpowered in low magic/low gear games). But that doesn't sound like what your DM is going for. You're pretty much stuck with Rogue (Scout or Ninja would work too) so it seems to me that's what you should go with. You might have fun with a Rogue/Warlock and just sneak attack blast people.

JaronK

[hex0]

Need Ki Strike (Magic) for the feat, which is Monk4.

So Monk4/Ninja x... haven't thought about what PrC's to use yet... probably something that advances precision-based damage output. Maybe something with maneuverability. I'd almost say Shadowdancer, but the feat investment is...

wait...

Cobra Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) discipline Monk gets Dodge and Mobility as bonus feats. Combat Reflexes is easy enough to pick up. That's the feat prereqs for Shadowdancer. One-level dip nets you HiPS, which lets you run around in stealth a LOT easier.

Needs some trapfinding, so Ninja 1 has to be taken first.

Ninja 2/Monk 2/Ninja 3/Shadowdancer etc.

Sounds okay.

Can you get Shou Disciple instead of using more ninja?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Needs some trapfinding, so Ninja 1 has to be taken first.

Ninja 2/Monk 2/Ninja 3/Shadowdancer etc.

Sounds okay.

Can you get Shou Disciple instead of using more ninja?

Still needs Monk4 for the feat.

Ninja2/Monk4/Ninja3/Shadowdancer

[kulosle]

Can you get Shou Disciple instead of using more ninja?

i'm not sure, where is this?

so my DM informed the rest of the group about my challenge and extended the challenge for others to try and utilize these feats. as a spur to encourage this he is letting anyone who takes both of the classes mentioned in any of the similar feats automatically gains the feat for free. so as soon as i have at least one level in monk and ninja i can the feat. sweet.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

i'm not sure, where is this?

so my DM informed the rest of the group about my challenge and extended the challenge for others to try and utilize these feats. as a spur to encourage this he is letting anyone who takes both of the classes mentioned in any of the similar feats automatically gains the feat for free. so as soon as i have at least one level in monk and ninja i can the feat. sweet.

Good, he's at least throwing you a bone.

Okay, Ninja1/Monk2 as your chassis it is, then, followed up by more Ninja and dipping Swordsage when you get a chance. Don't forget Sphinx Claws and Open Least Chakra: Hands at level 3 and 6 respectfully.

[hex0]

No swordsage allowed (tier 3)

having ascetic stalker earlier will help a lot!

Be sure to pick up Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack asap.

Shou Disciple is in Unapproachable East. It is one of the few Monk PRCs that stacks for flurry (and it is full BAB)

[kulosle]

Shou Disciple is in Unapproachable East. It is one of the few Monk PRCs that stacks for flurry (and it is full BAB)

wait seriously? that almost makes monks playable. i don't have the book and i can't seem to find it online. does any one have a link?

one of are party members is going to try and play the most bastardized character ever. since the feats are free he decided the best way to take advantage of this is to take all the classes that have synergy feats. thats 11 classes. i managed to talk him out of sorcerer and spell thief, but he still seems to think the rest is a good idea. well it will be good for a laugh.

the sphinx claw and open least chakra hand is a great idea thanks. i might have something alright going on here. thanks playground

[Psyren]

okay so i told the DM what i wanted to do. AND HE THREW THE GAUNTLET DOWN! he said that i couldn't stand playing an ascetic stalker (referring to the feat that combines monk and ninja in the Complete Scoundrel). CHALLENGE ACCEPTED GOOD SIR.
just one problem. i've never played a ninja. so in what way does combining two of the worst classes make you less lame?

Why would you go down a tier 0_o

The Scout/Barbarian build was awesomesauce...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

wait seriously? that almost makes monks playable. i don't have the book and i can't seem to find it online. does any one have a link?

one of are party members is going to try and play the most bastardized character ever. since the feats are free he decided the best way to take advantage of this is to take all the classes that have synergy feats. thats 11 classes. i managed to talk him out of sorcerer and spell thief, but he still seems to think the rest is a good idea. well it will be good for a laugh.

the sphinx claw and open least chakra hand is a great idea thanks. i might have something alright going on here. thanks playground

Actually, I've seen something of the sort work... passably well anyways... although not quite to that extent.

Usually, it's a combination of three classes, and two feats which overlap on the 'main' class.

For example: Monk2/Scout3/Rangerx with Ascetic Hunter and Swift Hunter. Unarmed damage improves and skirmish damage improves by getting more levels in Ranger.

In your case, however, it would be difficult to pull this off. Ascetic Rogue lets rogue and monk levels stack for purposes of unarmed damage, but not sneak attack progression, which is really what you would rather have. It would be better paired with Scout and Swift Ambusher to take primarily Rogue levels.

The only other combo feat which leverages Ninja is the Martial Stalker feat which... doesn't really do anything for you.

[JaronK]

Shou Disciple is in Unapproachable East... and I for one wholly approve of trying to make Ascetic Stalker work. I say get Carmendine Monk (Ninja and Monk Wis to AC won't stack, but Int to AC and Wis to AC do stack) to get things started anyway. Also, the whole Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation) + Master of Poisons thing would give you something awesome to work with. Flurry of poisoned attacks can do some real damage (use Sinmaker's Surprise for the high DC), and when you miss the poison isn't lost. I second using Marbles too.

JaronK

[Chronos]

I would recommend not relying too heavily on UMD, by the way, since a DM who's giving you all these other restrictions probably won't make good wands too available, either.

[hex0]

If you really want to scrap the Monk/Ninja, then I have on last tier 4 or lower build to suggest:

Rogue 1
Dwarf Fighter 1
Rogue 2

You get weapon focus in all axes in a d12 hit die out of the substitution level. This makes 2WF with a Dwarven Waraxe and a Handaxe viable. Whip out throwing axes for ranged.

[dextercorvia]

Shou Disciple is in Unapproachable East... and I for one wholly approve of trying to make Ascetic Stalker work. I say get Carmendine Monk (Ninja and Monk Wis to AC won't stack, but Int to AC and Wis to AC do stack) to get things started anyway. Also, the whole Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation) + Master of Poisons thing would give you something awesome to work with. Flurry of poisoned attacks can do some real damage (use Sinmaker's Surprise for the high DC), and when you miss the poison isn't lost. I second using Marbles too.

JaronK

Monk + Poison use -- Is anybody else thinking Warforged?

[Flickerdart]

Throwing weapons are worthless without Quick Draw, so rather than axes, pick up a nice bow.

[dextercorvia]

Throwing weapons are worthless without Quick Draw, so rather than axes, pick up a nice bow.

Least Crystal of Return?

[Flickerdart]

Least Crystal of Return?
Ok, so now you're throwing 300gp away every time you attack. So you add Returning on, and then you still need a bunch so that you can make iterative attacks...bow is cheaper and less of a headache.

[JaronK]

Monk + Poison use -- Is anybody else thinking Warforged?

Nope, since OP wanted Human only.

JaronK

[Mystral]

How about a Rogue/Swashbuckler with twf and daring outlaw? You'll be doing decent damage with sneak attack and nearly full BAB, and if you need to, you can even go more rogue. Also, take the feat craven, it nets you a nice boost to your damage.

[kulosle]

so we had our first session today and the build work a lot better than expected.

ninja 1, monk 3
ascetic stalker free
hidden talent human
poison expert flaw
poison master flaw
Improved Natural Attack, 1st
craven 3rd

i'm doing alright for now. we're suppose to get to mid levels by the end of this. don't know how i'll fair then. i can retrain feats to pick up sphinx claw and Open Least Chakra (Hands). i actually rather enjoyed the low power level of it all. things are simpler. less stuff i have to worry about my opponents having. the one thing i know for sure is i'll be doing better than my friend Ultra-Multiclass. he went with:
paladin 1, monk 1, ranger 1, bard 1 (GM let him because he new is character still wouldn't be strong enough)
free feats: devoted performer, devoted tracker, ascetic hunter, ascetic knight, ascetic mage (GM said he'll let him use his bard level for this, he really doesn't want him to suck)

he took some cha focusing feats and he's basically trying to SAD really hard, its working for now but i don't think it will for much longer.

thanks for all the help playground :smallsmile:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

so we had our first session today and the build work a lot better than expected.

ninja 1, monk 3
ascetic stalker free
hidden talent human
poison expert flaw
poison master flaw
Improved Natural Attack, 1st
craven 3rd

i'm doing alright for now. we're suppose to get to mid levels by the end of this. don't know how i'll fair then. i can retrain feats to pick up sphinx claw and Open Least Chakra (Hands). i actually rather enjoyed the low power level of it all. things are simpler. less stuff i have to worry about my opponents having. the one thing i know for sure is i'll be doing better than my friend Ultra-Multiclass. he went with:
paladin 1, monk 1, ranger 1, bard 1 (GM let him because he new is character still wouldn't be strong enough)
free feats: devoted performer, devoted tracker, ascetic hunter, ascetic knight, ascetic mage (GM said he'll let him use his bard level for this, he really doesn't want him to suck)

he took some cha focusing feats and he's basically trying to SAD really hard, its working for now but i don't think it will for much longer.

thanks for all the help playground :smallsmile:

If he takes Pal2 and Monk2, then continues Ranger from there, he won't do too bad as a tank who is very difficult to take down. If he picks up Scout, and gets Swift Hunter for free, then suddenly you green-light precision-based damage on favored enemies. This is a good thing.

[Xtomjames]

There's nothing that says you can, either. This is at best, a house rule.

Actually there is something that directly says it is the case. In the introduction to the Truenamer (which ironically is very much based on Houserules because the GM and the Player must agree on truenames and the like) it says and I quote: "Truenamers study the words that comprise the fabric of existence. They seek to unravel and comprehend the mysteries of the Multiverse by learning the truenames of as many of its components as possible." (Page 198 Tome of Magic)
"Truenames encompass reality in its entirerty. Everything in the world, everything that ever was, and presumably everything that ever will be has a truename." (Page 191 Tome of Magic).

The very description of the Truename magic and the Truenamer class tells us that even Magic spells like Wish and so on have truenames. Just because the class centers on physical objects does not mean it can't use other spells once the truenames of those spells are learned.

[Metahuman1]

Actually there is something that directly says it is the case. In the introduction to the Truenamer (which ironically is very much based on Houserules because the GM and the Player must agree on truenames and the like) it says and I quote: "Truenamers study the words that comprise the fabric of existence. They seek to unravel and comprehend the mysteries of the Multiverse by learning the truenames of as many of its components as possible." (Page 198 Tome of Magic)
"Truenames encompass reality in its entirerty. Everything in the world, everything that ever was, and presumably everything that ever will be has a truename." (Page 191 Tome of Magic).

The very description of the Truename magic and the Truenamer class tells us that even Magic spells like Wish and so on have truenames. Just because the class centers on physical objects does not mean it can't use other spells once the truenames of those spells are learned.

You may have just found a RAW way to get Truenamer up to Teir 3-2.

[Flickerdart]

Actually there is something that directly says it is the case. In the introduction to the Truenamer (which ironically is very much based on Houserules because the GM and the Player must agree on truenames and the like) it says and I quote: "Truenamers study the words that comprise the fabric of existence. They seek to unravel and comprehend the mysteries of the Multiverse by learning the truenames of as many of its components as possible." (Page 198 Tome of Magic)
"Truenames encompass reality in its entirerty. Everything in the world, everything that ever was, and presumably everything that ever will be has a truename." (Page 191 Tome of Magic).

The very description of the Truename magic and the Truenamer class tells us that even Magic spells like Wish and so on have truenames. Just because the class centers on physical objects does not mean it can't use other spells once the truenames of those spells are learned.
Fluff and fluff. There are no rules for using Truespeak to cast spells. Yes, based on this fluff, you can make spell Truenames (much like some Warlock invocations mimic spells). In fact, some spell Truenames exist (Conjunctive Gate). However, adding more is homebrew, not part of the actual class. As-is, a Truenamer can only "speak utterances, powerful combinations of truenames that can alter the world around you in fundamental ways." (200) It goes on to say that "utterances exist in three lexicons" which are all exhaustively listed in the book. What do you know, not a single normal spell among them! You also cannot research the true name of a spell because Truename Research rules (197) only address "someone's personal truename" and "Only creatures with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher have personal truenames" (196). Spells are not creatures with INT 3 or more. There are only rules for speaking the truenames of creatures, magical objects and non-magical objects (195). Spells are also not objects.

So yeah, you'd have to make up an entirely new lexicon and an entirely new use of the Truespeak skill in order to allow a Truenamer to cast spells with it.