dread necro vs cleric

[limejuicepowder]

I have a friend who is dearly in love with the dread necromancer. He plays a DN (level 12), and trashes all kinds of faces with his 220-some odd hp skelly dragon and DMM nonsense. After reading the descriptions of each of the tiers, he thinks DN belongs in t2.

I told him DN is in t3 because a cleric (or favored soul) can do everything a DN can, plus other stuff; especially the cleric. On the other hand though, I can see his point: DN can solo a whole lot of stuff with a minimul of effort, perhaps qualifying for t2.

Are there any other reasons why a DN is considered t3?

[Vandicus]

Tiers are not only a measure of combat effectiveness, but versatility. A dread necromancer is far more restricted than the sorcerer, psion, favored soul, or binder, the example tier 2 classes.

[Maho-Tsukai]

First of all, the Cleric cannot match the Dread Necro at sheer minion animation necromancy. The Dread Necromancer is THE Necromancer. NOBODY can control more undead then a Dread Necromancer, bar none. A cleric has to be, at the least, epic level to control the amount a high level DN can pre epic, and even in epic the DN can take the same feats the cleric can and just totally laugh his *** off at the cleric. Sure, the Undead Mastery feat makes the clerics 100 something undead army in the 200 ranges, but the DN was already in the 200 range pre-epic, and post undead mastery in epic this just gets even more ridiculous. When it comes to having lots and lots of minions, NOBODY can beat a single-classed Dread Necro.

However, that dose not make the Dread Necro tier 2. Power is not what the tiers measure. The reason the Dread Necro is tier 3 is not because it lacks raw power but rather that it's hyper-focused. The DN, as stated above, is the best necromantic minionmaster in the game. However, that's all he can do. The DN is a great necromancer, but other then necromancy there is little he can really do well. The cleric, meanwhile, while not at the same level as the DN in necromancy, can come very close, and in addition to that can also do 5,000+ things the DN can't ever hope to do(barring rainbow servant cheese, that is.) and can choose which of those things he wants to do each day, hence why the cleric is tier 1 and the DN is not.

[sreservoir]

the difference between tiers 2 and 3 is huge; that gap is the difference between "can deal with anything competently" and "can destroy the campaign almost trivially if left unchecked." it's certainly possible to destroy the world with the dread necro, but you need to put some effort into it. cleric gets all the tools it needs right on its spell list.

[JaronK]

First of all, the Cleric cannot match the Dread Necro at sheer minion animation necromancy. The Dread Necromancer is THE Necromancer. NOBODY can control more undead then a Dread Necromancer, bar none.

Actually, there are a ton of Cleric spells for Necromancy that Dread Necromancers either can't have (Desecrate) or must chose between (Animate Dread Warrior vs Awaken Undead). Sure, Dread Necromancers get more Animate Dead undead... but there are a lot of other kinds. And sure, their undead get a boost... but it's not huge. Also, Clerics start animating the dead at level 5, while Dread Necromancers can't even raise a single skelly until level 8 (and Clerics get all other undead raising spells earlier). And don't forget, only Clerics can rock out with DMM... Field of Ghouls from the Hunger domain is awesome when persisted if you need an army and are near dying people.


However, that dose not make the Dread Necro tier 2. Power is not what the tiers measure. The reason the Dread Necro is tier 3 is not because it lacks raw power but rather that it's hyper-focused. The DN, as stated above, is the best necromantic minionmaster in the game. However, that's all he can do. The DN is a great necromancer, but other then necromancy there is little he can really do well. The cleric, meanwhile, while not at the same level as the DN in necromancy, can come very close, and in addition to that can also do 5,000+ things the DN can't ever hope to do(barring rainbow servant cheese, that is.) and can choose which of those things he wants to do each day, hence why the cleric is tier 1 and the DN is not.

This is all true. Yes, Dread Necromancers are solid minion masters, with some decent fear abilities and some reasonable crowd control. They're solid. But they can't teleport, or fly (without an undead minion doing it), or summon genies (other than ones they kill, they lack the control spells for Planar Binding), or have any skill at reasonably high levels instantly, or turn into a tank for fun, or any of that other stuff Clerics do.

And even against the T2s... they're not able to do things like turn into a Crucian for +8 natural AC at level 4 (Sorcerer, Alter Self). They can't rebuild the world (Fabricate + Wall of Stone + Whatever else). None of that stuff.

They're a good, solid necromancer class. They can really do well, especially if given good things to animate. But they're not world breaking.

JaronK

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have a friend who is dearly in love with the dread necromancer. He plays a DN (level 12), and trashes all kinds of faces with his 220-some odd hp skelly dragon and DMM nonsense. After reading the descriptions of each of the tiers, he thinks DN belongs in t2.

I told him DN is in t3 because a cleric (or favored soul) can do everything a DN can, plus other stuff; especially the cleric. On the other hand though, I can see his point: DN can solo a whole lot of stuff with a minimul of effort, perhaps qualifying for t2.

Are there any other reasons why a DN is considered t3?

Look, I really love Dread Necro. Hell, I wrote up a guide on it not long ago. It can be a hell of a lot of fun... but it's no Tier 2.

Here's why:

Tier 2 means it can completely break the game. Take, for example, Sorcerer. They can literally break the campaign. They don't have the flexibility that a Wizard has, but they've still got enough raw power in their spell selection that they can pretty much break the game, and make sure that their combo will continue to break the game under any and all circumstances.

Tier 3 means it is a solid class within it's specialty, but does not have the ability to branch out of that specialty well, and handles immunities poorly.

This is where the Dread Necromancer resides.

He can summon undead, pretty much can do the minionmancy thing better than any other class in the game. He can even boost his undead with the right feat selection. He can even be really nasty either with Enervation or with various other tricks (Kelgore's Grave Mist + Fell Drain is always lulz-worthy).

But that's pretty much it. Death Ward + Flight (maybe Protection from Evil to suppress fear effects) pretty much makes a target immune to 90% of what a Dread Necromancer can do.

That's the real difference between a Tier 3/4 and a Tier 1/2...

You can shut down a Tier 3/4. You can't shut down a Tier 1/2. A tier 1 class just does something ELSE to break the game instead. A tier 2 simply makes sure his one trick can't be shut down. No, not even then.

A Dread Necromancer can be shut down pretty hard. Therefore: Tier 3.

[Big Fau]

You can shut down a Tier 3/4 with abilities built into the game that are readily available to the players. You can't shut down a Tier 1/2 without resorting to DM fiat or sheer human error.

Fixed that for you.

[Silva Stormrage]

Though you CAN shut down a tier 1/2 character if the person doesn't optimize. Its pretty obvious but just throwing it out there.

[Big Fau]

Though you CAN shut down a tier 1/2 character if the person doesn't optimize. Its pretty obvious but just throwing it out there.

Hence the "Human error" line.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Though you CAN shut down a tier 1/2 character if the person doesn't optimize. Its pretty obvious but just throwing it out there.

Not unless the build went out of it's way to be able to be shut down. They just have access to too many win buttons and too many defenses to truly be threatened by anything other than another Tier 1/2 class, or GM Fiat.

Heck, with a Tier 1 character, it's nearly impossible to truly shut them down permanently, because they have so many options.

For example: Wizard. Let's say it's 1st level game. Wizard finds the joys of the Sleep spell, and proceeds to hardcore pwn every encounter with it.

GM decides this is breaking his game, so he decides to throw a bunch of mindless zombies and skeletons at the party, who are immune to sleep.

Wizard responds by not bothering with Sleep, but instead uses Grease as battlefield control, since zombies have abysmal Reflex saves, much to the same effect.

When the GM fiats that zombies are immune to grease, he responds by throwing up Mage Armor and Shield and having an AC so high that none of the zombies can hit him, except on a natural 20, and pulls out his trusty Crossbow to one-shot-kill them half the time.

Or he uses Summon Monster I to summon a Celestial (anything) with Smite Evil.

See what I mean? You stop one thing, they do something else. You stop that, they simply break the game in yet another way. Zero 'optimization', just choosing spells right out of the PhB.

[Big Fau]

Not unless the build went out of it's way to be able to be shut down. They just have access to too many win buttons and too many defenses to truly be threatened by anything other than another Tier 1/2 class, or GM Fiat.

Heck, with a Tier 1 character, it's nearly impossible to truly shut them down permanently, because they have so many options.

For example: Wizard. Let's say it's 1st level game. Wizard finds the joys of the Sleep spell, and proceeds to hardcore pwn every encounter with it.

GM decides this is breaking his game, so he decides to throw a bunch of mindless zombies and skeletons at the party, who are immune to sleep.

Wizard responds by not bothering with Sleep, but instead uses Grease as battlefield control, since zombies have abysmal Reflex saves, much to the same effect.

When the GM fiats that zombies are immune to grease, he responds by throwing up Mage Armor and Shield and having an AC so high that none of the zombies can hit him, except on a natural 20, and pulls out his trusty Crossbow to one-shot-kill them half the time.

Or he uses Summon Monster I to summon a Celestial (anything) with Smite Evil.

See what I mean? You stop one thing, they do something else. You stop that, they simply break the game in yet another way. Zero 'optimization', just choosing spells right out of the PhB.

As I said above, DM Fiat is really the only reliable way to shut down Tier 1's and 2's.

[Snowbluff]

For necromancy, DN hands down. At the least, DN has twice as many Skeles and Zombies to do their dirty work. Past and before 8th level, DN is kinda weak, I suggest PRCing.

[Silva Stormrage]

Not unless the build went out of it's way to be able to be shut down. They just have access to too many win buttons and too many defenses to truly be threatened by anything other than another Tier 1/2 class, or GM Fiat.

Heck, with a Tier 1 character, it's nearly impossible to truly shut them down permanently, because they have so many options.

For example: Wizard. Let's say it's 1st level game. Wizard finds the joys of the Sleep spell, and proceeds to hardcore pwn every encounter with it.

GM decides this is breaking his game, so he decides to throw a bunch of mindless zombies and skeletons at the party, who are immune to sleep.

Wizard responds by not bothering with Sleep, but instead uses Grease as battlefield control, since zombies have abysmal Reflex saves, much to the same effect.

When the GM fiats that zombies are immune to grease, he responds by throwing up Mage Armor and Shield and having an AC so high that none of the zombies can hit him, except on a natural 20, and pulls out his trusty Crossbow to one-shot-kill them half the time.

Or he uses Summon Monster I to summon a Celestial (anything) with Smite Evil.

See what I mean? You stop one thing, they do something else. You stop that, they simply break the game in yet another way. Zero 'optimization', just choosing spells right out of the PhB.

I disagree because my players simply aren't that smart. (If you are reading this guys you DO do this). Most people won't chose the best 1st level spell (or one of them at anyrate) They will choose magic missile or burning hands. Even if they do choose battle field control they can prepare sleep 2-3 times mage armor once and MAYBE grease once. So if you send some mindless zombies at them they still will have problems (especially if you bait them into using their grease early (cornered enemy with easy flame source)). Then they get countered by the mindless zombie hordes. The next day unless they continuously expect to fight zombies they will prepare the same spells almost every time.

Of course if the player is really good at optimization and system mastery than ya. Tier 1's and tier twos are almost impossible to stop (I say almost because if the DM has MORE system mastery then he wins simply because he can through a wizard of the same level + 1 with more gear and knowledge at the party)

[Big Fau]

I disagree because my players simply aren't that smart. (If you are reading this guys you DO do this). Most people won't chose the best 1st level spell (or one of them at anyrate) They will choose magic missile or burning hands. Even if they do choose battle field control they can prepare sleep 2-3 times mage armor once and MAYBE grease once. So if you send some mindless zombies at them they still will have problems (especially if you bait them into using their grease early (cornered enemy with easy flame source)). Then they get countered by the mindless zombie hordes. The next day unless they continuously expect to fight zombies they will prepare the same spells almost every time.

Of course if the player is really good at optimization and system mastery than ya. Tier 1's and tier twos are almost impossible to stop (I say almost because if the DM has MORE system mastery then he wins simply because he can through a wizard of the same level + 1 with more gear and knowledge at the party)

Personal experience is a very bad baseline for debates like this one, and as such it is common for optimizers to ignore such anecdotes.


It doesn't even take a strong degree of mastery; ask any DM that was unprepared for a combat-oriented Druid. Dumb luck has lower odds of pulling off Campaign/Encounter-ending abilities, but it can happen.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Divine Metamagic only works with divine spells. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) Dread Necromancers cast arcane spells, so they cannot benefit from DMM.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I disagree because my players simply aren't that smart. (If you are reading this guys you DO do this). Most people won't chose the best 1st level spell (or one of them at anyrate) They will choose magic missile or burning hands. Even if they do choose battle field control they can prepare sleep 2-3 times mage armor once and MAYBE grease once. So if you send some mindless zombies at them they still will have problems (especially if you bait them into using their grease early (cornered enemy with easy flame source)). Then they get countered by the mindless zombie hordes. The next day unless they continuously expect to fight zombies they will prepare the same spells almost every time.

Of course if the player is really good at optimization and system mastery than ya. Tier 1's and tier twos are almost impossible to stop (I say almost because if the DM has MORE system mastery then he wins simply because he can through a wizard of the same level + 1 with more gear and knowledge at the party)

No-where in the description of grease it states said grease is flamable, and there is an specific spell in the SC (I think) that is flamable, so I would wager to say that grease can't be set on fire by RAW, though you are more than welcome to houserule that, and in fact it is a pretty sensible houserule too.


Divine Metamagic only works with divine spells. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) Dread Necromancers cast arcane spells, so they cannot benefit from DMM.

Southern Magician and Alternate Spell source beg to differ :smalltongue:

[Big Fau]

No-where in the description of grease it states said grease is flamable, and there is an specific spell in the SC (I think) that is flamable, so I would wager to say that grease can't be set on fire by RAW, though you are more than welcome to houserule that, and in fact it is a pretty sensible houserule too.

Complete Mage actually. Incendiary Slime.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Complete Mage actually. Incendiary Slime.

Thanks for the clarification

[Lord.Sorasen]

Personal experience is a very bad baseline for debates like this one, and as such it is common for optimizers to ignore such anecdotes.


It doesn't even take a strong degree of mastery; ask any DM that was unprepared for a combat-oriented Druid. Dumb luck has lower odds of pulling off Campaign/Encounter-ending abilities, but it can happen.

Personal experience however does serve to suggest that high tier characters can be defeated when the player succumbs to human error. Which is what was being argued.

The sleep argument brought up "no sleep? Grease!" requires a wizard who has all those spells ready to be used always. The sleep wizard is in a terrible situation if he prepared spells not expecting undead. Naturally this doesn't mean the wizard isn't incredibly powerful, it just means an inexperienced player can mess up and be defeated.