Factotum

[Master Thrower]

Hey playground I posted a build earlier about a factotum with samurai fluff. That isn't set in stone, and its my first factotum so I was wondering what are other melee (Ish) centric build for factotum, starting level is 11, standard WBL

DM has no'd tome of battle to limit us for the campaign. Besides that the majority of sources are usable.

Stats- 10, 11, 14, 15, 16, 18

[Hirax]

Like with any melee build, a 1 level dip into pounce whirl barbarian isn't a bad idea. Once you get to factotum8 swiftblade is an option if you want to prc out of factotum. because you can cast haste as a free action, you'll eventually be able to use those 2 extra standard actions from factotum and swiftblade to cast haste and 2 other spells, then fire up your blades and enter a supremely buffed whirling frenzy.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Factotum as a class is really, really, solid. Hit up its handbook. Generally, you stick to Factotum 8 for extra standard actions. Beyond that, it's all gravy. You could go the rest of your levels into Warblade or Chameleon or whatever else floats your boat.

[Amphetryon]

Obligatory Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) plug.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Obligatory Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) plug.

A note on Font of Inspiration: don't take it just once. For it to really be useful, you want it at least twice, possibly three times. If flaws are open to you, then, at first level, assuming human, your four feats are all Font of Inspiration. This nets you a wonderful extra 10 extra Inspiration points. After that, feats go to whatever type of combat style you want. As the handbook suggests, Iaijutsu Focus is hard to beat.

[Little Brother]

Another note: Each time you PsiRef a FoI to another FoI, you get 2 Inspiration Points. Charm/Suggest a Psion and go crazy.

[Curmudgeon]

A note on Font of Inspiration: don't take it just once. For it to really be useful, you want it at least twice, possibly three times. If flaws are open to you, then, at first level, assuming human, your four feats are all Font of Inspiration. This nets you a wonderful extra 10 extra Inspiration points.
That depends on how your DM interprets the text of Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606):
Special: You can take this multiple times. Each time you take this feat after the first time, the number of inspiration points you gain increases by 1 (for example, you gain 2 inspiration points if you take the feat a second time).
Is that an incremental gain of 2 IPs the second time, or a total gain of 2 IPs from both instances of FoI? Normally, feat benefits don't stack; you would get 1 IP total from two instances of FoI without that stacking exception. So it's quite possible for this to be emphasizing that you just add 1 IP each time you take the feat.

Ask your DM.

[JaronK]

Hey playground I posted a build earlier about a factotum with samurai fluff. That isn't set in stone, and its my first factotum so I was wondering what are other melee (Ish) centric build for factotum, starting level is 11, standard WBL

DM has no'd tome of battle to limit us for the campaign. Besides that the majority of sources are usable.

Stats- 10, 11, 14, 15, 16, 18

The basic melee Factotum concepts are the assassin and the tripper.

The assassin build uses a Gnomish Quickrazor (for Iaijutsu Focus fun... take advantage of the fact that Whispergnomes get it as a martial weapon) for primary damage, and usually throws in some poison (you can cast Minor Creation as a standard action... why not make a bunch of Sinmaker's Surprise?). The Master of Poisons feat keeps you from hurting yourself and lets you apply poisons as a swift action, too. Consider a one level dip into Mindbender with Mindsight so you can auto detect all your enemies, and maybe going Necropolitan so you can take Lifesight and thus always see everybody instantly (and then you can put that 10 into Con without worries). If you want to keep that oriental theme, you could always call this a ninja. Go with the 18 and 16 in Int and Dex... your call on the rest, really. Your main trick will be to flat foot people (with Grease, Marbles, going first, or Blurstriking Weapons) and hopefully land some poison on them with your Iaijutsu Focus doing the basic damage. A Blurstriking Quickrazor of Assassination would be handy, especially if you can get Greater Magic Weapon cast on it (or cast it yourself). Consider the Ritual of Shadow Walking so you can teleport at will (requires being immune to con damage and being able to self heal... note that creating a single Necrosis Carnex or a patch of Black Sand should handle all your healing needs if you're a Necropolitan). If you want to be mean, remember that Sp abilities always take a standard action or less, even if the cast time of the spell is longer (see Monster Manual), so you can cast Ghoul Glyph in someone else's square as a standard action to paralyze them with no save (SR applies) and then finish them off. Fun trick.

The tripper is pretty straight forward too, taking advantage of the fact that you apply your Int to trip checks. Usually it uses a dip into Swordsage, but you can get away with not doing that. In this case you'd want to be heavy on the strength so you can fling people around.

Don't forget, you can cast Animate Dead at full caster level too, so you can do all this stuff and still raise an army of the dead in your downtime. If you're being stealthy, just leave them with a party member or something. No one ever expects the stealth class to suddenly bust out with a zombie dragon. Other spells with permanent effects are great, such as Ghoul Glyph, Explosive Runes, and so on.

Archery's also a solid option, by the way. And Knowledge Devotion is worth considering, though the skill point cost may be too high.

JaronK

[Kaje]

That depends on how your DM interprets the text of Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606):
Is that an incremental gain of 2 IPs the second time, or a total gain of 2 IPs from both instances of FoI? Normally, feat benefits don't stack; you would get 1 IP total from two instances of FoI without that stacking exception. So it's quite possible for this to be emphasizing that you just add 1 IP each time you take the feat.

Ask your DM.

It's really really easy to say "When you take this feat, you gain 1 inspiration point." They wouldn't have used such awkward language if it was just a straight 1 to 1 correlation.

EDIT: I got's a factotum question for y'all: Can Opportunistic Piety fuel domain feats?

[Gorfnod]

If you are looking to play a factotum with a samurai feel then I highly recommend Quellian-dyrae's factotum based samurai class.

Samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11288239&postcount=33)

In fact all of Quellian-dyrae's factotum based classes are really good.

Underpowered Classes with Factotum Foundation (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204698&)

[hex0]

Actually a Factotum/Knight wΩuld make a decent Samurai (and a darn good tripper).

[Curmudgeon]

It's really really easy to say "When you take this feat, you gain 1 inspiration point." They wouldn't have used such awkward language if it was just a straight 1 to 1 correlation.
You want to bet? If we had a contest to come up with 100 D&D rules statements that use equally awkward language, it would have to be determined by speed because there would be multiple winners. :smallcool:

EDIT: I got's a factotum question for y'all: Can Opportunistic Piety fuel domain feats? Only a few.

Opportunistic Piety (Su)
...
Starting at 5th level, you can spend 1 inspiration point to channel divine energy as a standard action. You can only fuel a domain feat with a single turn undead attempt, and only if that feat can still work with the added requirement of a standard action spent in the round you activate it.

Evil Devotion, Good Devotion, and Healing Devotion would work (because each only takes 1 turn attempt to use) if you used their immediate actions on your turn. Sun Devotion and Strength Devotion use swift actions to activate, and you'll receive their benefits for 1 minute per activation. So you'll get nothing accomplished in the activation round due to the standard action requirement, but you'd still have 9 rounds left in each case.

[Tyndmyr]

That depends on how your DM interprets the text of Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606):
Is that an incremental gain of 2 IPs the second time, or a total gain of 2 IPs from both instances of FoI? Normally, feat benefits don't stack; you would get 1 IP total from two instances of FoI without that stacking exception. So it's quite possible for this to be emphasizing that you just add 1 IP each time you take the feat.

Ask your DM.

That interpretation would be outright incorrect.

There is very standard verbiage for + to something. There is also pretty standard verbiage for +x & +1/y to something. This is clearly an example of the latter.

[Curmudgeon]

That interpretation would be outright incorrect.

There is very standard verbiage for + to something.
Not for feats, because the standard is you can take most any feat multiple times, but feat benefits do not stack.
In general, having a feat twice is the same as having it once. Font of Inspiration leads off the stacking exception with some unnecessary, awkward phrasing:
Special: You can take this multiple times.
So your claim is that, when they start off with rules-unaware language (reiterating something that's entirely ordinary to begin the "Special" section), the rest of it is going to follow standard (but not for feats) verbiage.
:confused:

[AmberVael]

The wording on Font of Inspiration is identical to the wording of Psionic Talent.

Compare:



Psionic Talent [Psionic]

You gain additional power points to supplement those you already had.
Prerequisite

Having a power point reserve.
Benefit

When you take this feat for the first time, you gain 2 power points.
Special

You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat after the first time, the number of power points you gain increases by 1.


Font of Inspiration

You have unearthed of well of inspiration from within your soul.

Prerequisite: Int 15, Must have Inspiration as a class feature.

Benefits: When you take this feat for the first time, you gain 1 inspiration point.

Special: You can take this multiple times. Each time you take this feat after the first time, the number of inspiration points you gain increases by 1 (for example, you gain 2 inspiration points if you take the feat a second time). The maximum number of times you can take this feat is equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Contrast with:


Toughness [General]
Benefit

You gain +3 hit points.
Special

A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

Fast Healing [Epic]
Prerequisite

Con 25.
Benefit

You gain fast healing 3, or your existing fast healing increases by 3. This feat does not stack with fast healing granted by magic items or nonpermanent magical effects.
Special

You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.



Conclusion: Each time you take Font of Inspiration, the number of inspiration points you gain from the next iteration of the feat increases by 1 (identical to Psionic Talent).

[Tyndmyr]

Not for feats, because the standard is you can take most any feat multiple times, but feat benefits do not stack. Font of Inspiration leads off the stacking exception with some unnecessary, awkward phrasing:
So your claim is that, when they start off with rules-unaware language (reiterating something that's entirely ordinary to begin the "Special" section), the rest of it is going to follow standard (but not for feats) verbiage.
:confused:

No....it's incredibly common verbiage. The psionic reference was one I was aware of, but similar language is used elsewhere as well.

I am not aware of any indication that this language is supposed to refer to some obscure stacking exception that doesn't say anything about stacking. That's a very unintuitive interpretation, and one that lacks support from...anywhere in the rules.

Note additionally that this isn't an effect. So...stacking rules aren't really a problem. You level up, you take a feat, you get more inspiration points. Like hit points, power points, same same.

[Douglas]

The language for a feat that has any point to taking multiple times is standardized and quite simple:

You can gain [feat] multiple times. Its effects (do not) stack.

There may be minor word substitutions, but other than that it is quite consistent. If Font of Inspiration were a simple stacking +1, this is the exact wording they would use. An increasing per feat benefit is the only reason WotC would write it the way they did.

[Curmudgeon]

I am not aware of any indication that this language is supposed to refer to some obscure stacking exception that doesn't say anything about stacking.
Either interpretation talks about stacking, because without stacking you would get 1 IP from all your instances of Font of Inspiration, for an incremental tally of:

+1 +0 +0 +0 ...
It's just a DM interpretation issue of whether what you get incrementally with that stacking exception is:

+1 +1 +1 +1 ... or

+1 +2 +3 +4 ...

Note additionally that this isn't an effect. So...stacking rules aren't really a problem.
You seem to be confusing the stacking limit on feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#featDescriptions) with the basic stacking rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking). These and the stacking rule for spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects) are all different rules for different contexts.

[Tyndmyr]

I don't see how this is relevant either.

"In general, having a feat twice is the same as having it once. "

Yeah, I'm pretty sure this isn't relevant to Font of Inspiration. It's pretty clearly not the general case. It's intended to be a feat you take over and over again, and gain additional uses from.

Specific overriding general, it's pretty clear that this was a feat you are intended to take multiple times, and benefit from it each time, in an increasing fashion. There is no reason for this wording otherwise, and there is an extremely standard wording that is used in all cases where it's a static, stacking bonus.

[Curmudgeon]

Specific overriding general, it's pretty clear that this was a feat you are intended to take multiple times, and benefit from it each time, in an increasing fashion.
Yes, absolutely. But is the increase +1 additional IP each time, or a geometric progression? The feat doesn't say unambiguously. It's thus a DM's call.

[Siosilvar]

Yes, absolutely. But is the increase +1 additional IP each time, or a geometric progression? The feat doesn't say unambiguously. It's thus a DM's call.

I think the identical text usage in Psionic Talent compared to Toughness is as close to unambiguous as you'll get.

Psionic Talent
First time: You gain 2 PP.
Second time: You gain (2+1) IP = 3 PP.
Third time: You gain (3+1) IP = 4 PP.

Toughness
First time: You gain 3 HP.
Second time: You gain 3 HP.
Third time: You gain 3 HP.

Font of Inspiration
First time: You gain 1 IP.
Second time: You gain (1+1) IP = 2 IP.
Third time: You gain (2+1) IP = 3 IP.

It's still up to DM interpretation by RAW, but it's fairly clear what RAI was. Psionic Talent for 1 PP after you've already gotten 2 out of the first feat is worth less than a feat (a feat is worth at least 2 PP, because that's what you get the first time you take Psionic Talent), so you'd assume you get more the next couple times you take it. The wording is identical on FoI, so it works the same way.

[Curmudgeon]

Psionic Talent for 1 PP after you've already gotten 2 out of the first feat is worth less than a feat (a feat is worth at least 2 PP, because that's what you get the first time you take Psionic Talent)
That's faulty reasoning. The normal case is you get nothing for having a second instance of a feat, so Psionic Talent for 2 PP the first time, but only 1 PP each additional time (2nd, 3rd, 4th, ...) you take that feat is still better than the usual limit. The feat doesn't say you get a total of 3 (linear progression) or 5 (geometric progression) power points the second time, so deciding how to read the feat is a DM's call.

Let's contrast a non-stacking alternative. Craven gives +1 point of sneak attack per character level. It doesn't stack, so you might add Deadly Precision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#deadlyPrecision) for more. DP only adds about +0.21 points of sneak attack per character level (+2.5 extra points on average but only on 1/6th of die rolls, when you get one die per 2 character levels), but Craven + Deadly Precision (+1.21) is still more than Craven + Craven (+1.0). Even with a non-increasing, smaller boost after the first time, stacking Psionic Talent remains better than non-stacking feat options.

Jumping to an ambiguous conclusion about Psionic Talent doesn't make the same argument for Font of Inspiration any more solid.

[stainboy]

While the feat arguably does say it scales geometrically, the fact that you have to convince an actual DM makes it pretty shaky:

"Hey DM, I found a feat that can be interpreted as quadratically increasing my extra action fuel. It was in an online article so you know it was reviewed and playtested. I took it four times. That's cool, right?"


E: OP, if you want useful information you should probably go ask your DM how FoI works, then post that information here in 24pt bold. And Cunning Strike (does it stack?), Cunning Surge (does it stack?), and... you know what, just get your DM to explain every single factotum ability because nobody here agrees on what the hell they do and a few people have a big intellectually dishonest axe to grind about it.