Void Disciple's Sense Void vs Mind Blank - What do you think?

[Tonal Architect]

Came upon the Void Disciple today, for it has come to my knowledge that one of the BBEGs in the game will be one. Once I read how "Sense Void" works, I couldn't help but wonder WTF.

The description has more holes in it then swiss cheese (rather appropriate, considering its cheese factor), pretty much not stating anything other than its (not modest in the slightest) range.

I'd say it's well within reason to rule that mind blank defeats the ability (it defeats stuff up to wish), it makes sense that it could defeat this. But especifically, what's your take on this issue, and how have your DMs interpreted the issue, in case you've had the debate acted out in-game?

[Psyren]

With questions like this, the best approach is generally to start from RAW (as it is common ground for all of us) and then step back to more subjective judgments: looking at possible intent (RAI), what should logically happen (RAMS) and finally make a determination for your table or how you would argue it to your DM.

For RAW, we have two simple points here:
- Sense Void, though very divination-like in nature, is not actually a divination effect, nor does it have any descriptors (e.g. Scrying) that would let MB automatically defeat it.
- It states that you use your normal senses ("sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell.") Mind Blank doesn't foil any of these; far simpler effects, however (e.g. Invisibility, or just plain hiding), do.

So the RAW conclusion is that MB doesn't defeat SV; this is the default position, which must be argued against or overturned rather than proven.


From there we go to RAI; was Sense Void intended to be a divination or scrying effect? There are arguments for and against: The adaptation section mentions that Void Disciples have "the ability to scry on one another" (pg. 72) which suggests that it was intended to be a scrying effect. On the other hand, the applicability of an adaptation section to the base class is disputable, the use of "scry" in that sentence may simply have been shorthand for "view at a distance" rather than the game rule definition, and perhaps most importantly, Sense Void doesn't function like any other Scrying effect in the game.

Scrying effects:
A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.

Sense Void: "...The Void Disciple's consciousness actually departs her body and extends into the world, allowing her to use her normal senses (sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell) to perceive whatever area, person, or thing she directs her attention to."

Rather than create a separate magical sensor - the Void Disciple is, for all informational intents and purposes, present at whatever s/he is trying to look at or find out about. So you could argue that SV is different enough from traditional scrying that its ability to bypass MB is justified, or you could argue that the use of the word "scry" on pg. 72 makes the designers' intent clear.


As for my personal take on the matter, I think SV is different enough from traditional scrying that it should get around MB. It's effectively just "long sight" anyway; it's not like you can say "show me Elminster!" and immediately zoom in on his location Google Maps style - you could simply wander around outside your body spiritually until you spot him, and if he happened to be disguised or invisible that day you'd have just wasted your time. So the fact that you can ogle someone walking around with a mind blank on whereas Scrying wouldn't let you, shouldn't be a major issue.

[Tonal Architect]

Your interpretation seems perfectly reasonable, but still, I guess you created a perfectly reasonable limitation to an otherwise truly godlike ability.

I agree with the part that it makes no sense to be able to zoom in google maps style on anybody desired, but that's actually what the RAW states. If not, then we're posed with the questions... If you have the ability to send your conciousness out, to reach out with it through the void, then it also makes sense to have your body become inactive for the round you've just spend.

If we go along with the interpretation that it's long sight, then although it could potentially reach 10.000 miles with a Spellcraft check, DC 30, how long would it take for the conciousness to reach it's desired target, 10.000 miles away, or, for all intents and purposes, what's the consciousness speed? Will it foil concealment? Can it foil a hide check or a disguise check? And especially... If it doesn't zoom on the target, does that imply that Sense Void is unable to find specific individuals, but instead works in a "your consciouness leaves your body and goes out for a stride" kind of way?

Personally, I like the long sight interpretation, as it's already a departure from the mix of true seeing and some other godly scrying method implied in the books.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Is Void Disciple that 5/10 PrC that manipulates Spheres of Annihilation? Isn't it useless-awful? I'm AFB, but I remember it being complete garbage, if I'm thinking of the right one.

The posted descriptions of Sense Void indicate to me that it's closer to Astral Projection than Scrying, albeit without the silver cord or ability to cross planes or the ability to affect things where you project to (and a much more severe range limit?). This does not seem that great; the main advantage of Astral Projection is that you can actually do things at a distance while your body is safely home somewhere. With the range/plane limits, your body is defenselessly nearby, and you can't actually do anything from your projected position.

Decent, but not omgwtf powerful by any means. Not even remotely worth 5 spellcasting levels.

[The Glyphstone]

You're thinking of Entropomancer.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Right, so I am. Googled it, came across a previous discussion; yeah, the thing is... well, it's poorly defined, is what it is. Depending on rulings, it's absurdly useless or absurdly broken. Do you trust your DM? I'd be more wary of a "getting feats without meeting pre-reqs" ("hello, Epic Spellcasting, how are ya?") ruling than anything with Sense Void, though.