Duelist and Lathander-Paladin (Pathfinder)

[LadyJane]

Hi everybody,

I've got some questions about creating a Duelist and a Paladin with Pathfinder. My Gamemaster decided to leave D&D 3.5 and switch to Pathfinder - that means new characters. Though everybody told me, that the changes aren't soooo much I've got problems when I think about creating these characters.

We start with lvl2. I choose to play a Half-Elf-Fighter to reach the Prestigeclass Duelist as fast as I can. Now I'm not sure how to choose the abilities and feats. I've to say that this is my first Fighter - my last character was a mage and that's why I've got these problems ;) .

I've got 15 points for the abilities, I want to start as a fighter and want to play a Half-Elf...what should I do, to get a good balanced character? Does a Duelist need strength??? What about wisdom?? What feats should I choose???

The second question is about a Lathander paladin. I've read that there're changes from D&D3.5 to Pathfinder when it comes to paladins - no need for wisdom anymore?? Just charisma, strength and constitution?? And what feats are good for a paladin with a shield and perhaps a sword? Or what's the favorite weapon of Lathander??

The last years I only built spellcaster - this swamps me a bit...perhaps anybody has built a paladin and/or a duelist before and can help me??

[Larpus]

First, from the looks of it, you need this link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/). It's the online free SRD, which has mostly accurate and updated information on almost everything Pathfinder-related.

Second, I don't have any experience with the Duelist, so anyone feel free to correct me if I'm talking out of my wazoo.

From the looks of it, there's nothing terribly exciting about the Duelist, it's just a squishy Fighter with questionable features. For example, Parry (which seems to be the big selling point) sounds good, but really isn't that great since at -5 you're rather unlikely to hit an attack (whether you use it to damage or parry) and you must let go of it before you know you'll actually use it.

Also, the class has some MAD problem, as much as it's somewhat advertised that you can forego Str in favor of Int, the fact that you only qualify for it at level 7 (at least), means that you have to both survive and be useful for 6 levels, which means that you do need Str and Int is just extra damage.

So the needed stats for a Duelist are Str, Dex, Con and Int (and not dump Wis, after all you need those Will saves); while at the same time not getting as much out of Int than a half caster like Magus or Alchemist would (both classes that actually need the exact same stats).

I'm not saying don't do it, but think about your concept, there might be another more lucrative way to make it happen. But keep in mind that Pathfinder has overall made single class much more appealing, so PrCs are usually discouraged by design and the Duelist doesn't seem to be one that brings enough boys to the yard to justify the price.

As for feats, I guess that the standard two handed weapon fare will serve you well, since Power Attack can be performed with a light weapon now (weird, I know), you can dual-hand a light weapon and none of the Duelist abilities actually need a free hand, they just need a light/pierce melee weapon and no shield (so dual hand that pointy stick!).

And yes, the Paladin is considerably different now, gone is the Wis as the casting now comes from Cha, so now it's possible to have more than 2 skills points. Smite Evil is more powerful now too, since it lasts until the target is dead or until the Paladin rests. There are other neatos in further levels, but I was never a Paladin guy, so that's all I know about the differences.

[LadyJane]

First of all, thank you for you're answer and for the link :)

Your answer sounds like it would be better to stay one class (e.g. fighter) and try to turn it with feats and abilities to a kind of duelist without using the prestige class - am I right so far? So, I could save the points int and use them for str or dex?

[Talentless]

First of all, thank you for you're answer and for the link :)

Your answer sounds like it would be better to stay one class (e.g. fighter) and try to turn it with feats and abilities to a kind of duelist without using the prestige class - am I right so far? So, I could save the points int and use them for str or dex?

Eh... I think it is a bit of a yes and no.

Fighter is still primarily a dip class, unless you are using archetypes to reach a certain feature or flavor. Simply because outside of archetypes, the fighter just doesn't have any features TRULY worth the levels. The majority of the core fighter features are equal to feats really...


But yes, don't prestige into Duelist, it is bad. Especially when you use the Paladin as the entry.

Paladins are still MAD in PF, not as much now that was in 3.5, but still Str>Con>Cha>Wis are still important.

Adding duelist means going from a 3 stat priority class to a 4 stat priority.

Not to mention that on average, a standard 2h weapon will provide more damage per hit than the Duelist's Int bonus.

[Larpus]

What Talentless said is very true, which is why I asked about your character concept, there are many different ways to build a capable "duelist" sort of character.

Hell, you can actually pull one with Barbarian, which is overall a better option than Fighter for your local "I kill things with my weapon" guy. There is even one archetype, namely the Urban Barbarian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/urban-barbarian), who doesn't "mad foam" Rage and doesn't even get the usual downsides of Rage, but of course his bonuses are smaller (though more versatile as you can apply them to Dex, for example).

That was just one quick from the top of my head example of a way to start building a duelist, there are other ways, like a Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) for example, who fights with only a 1H weapon but does have some casting involved, so if your concept is "straight duelist with no magic", that guy is certainly out.

EDIT: Figured it wouldn't hurt to put the links to what I was saying.

[LadyJane]

Erm, I don't want cross-class with a paladin - a good friend of mine wants to join our group and never played roleplay before and he wants to play a paladin and asked me to help him :)

My concept for my character was to play a fighter which is like a musketeer; light armor, light-footed but precise, fast and deathful ;) . Not one of those armor-plated front fighters. More elegant...but with no no no not any kind of magic! This should be my first non-magic character :D .

I know, that there is the possibility to start my career as rogue or bard to create such a character, but we've got a rogue already and a bard is again a caster, just with singing, dancing and so on...that's why I choose a fighter...

When I say "bye bye" to my idea of using the duelist class, how do I have to modify my fighter, to become a musketeer ;)

[gorfnab]

Here is a Pathfinder Paladin Handbook (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/cryptic-s-lab) that may be of some use.

[Talentless]

Erm, I don't want cross-class with a paladin - a good friend of mine wants to join our group and never played roleplay before and he wants to play a paladin and asked me to help him :)

My concept for my character was to play a fighter which is like a musketeer; light armor, light-footed but precise, fast and deathful ;) . Not one of those armor-plated front fighters. More elegant...but with no no no not any kind of magic! This should be my first non-magic character :D .

I know, that there is the possibility to start my career as rogue or bard to create such a character, but we've got a rogue already and a bard is again a caster, just with singing, dancing and so on...that's why I choose a fighter...

When I say "bye bye" to my idea of using the duelist class, how do I have to modify my fighter, to become a musketeer ;)

Well, there is the Cavalier archetype Musketeer, but I'm not sure that it is what you want.

Free-Hand Fighter (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/free-hand-fighter) sounds a bit more like what you are looking for.

The Cad (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/cad)
Is another option, but I don't think it is quite like what you are asking for.

/edit Musketeer (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/musketeer) link if you want to take a look.

[gourdcaptain]

If you ARE going to use the duelist PrC anyway, this feat should minimize MAD: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat

It lets you use dex for attack and damage with a scimitar one-handed (and lets you use it for the Duelist PrC's class features). Which means you don't need Str. If you can dip 3.5e Swashbuckler for Int to damage as well, it could get interesting. (Yes, I have put a lot of thought into the mediocre-to-bad PF Duelist PrC. Don't ask.)

[Larpus]

Erm, I don't want cross-class with a paladin - a good friend of mine wants to join our group and never played roleplay before and he wants to play a paladin and asked me to help him :)

My concept for my character was to play a fighter which is like a musketeer; light armor, light-footed but precise, fast and deathful ;) . Not one of those armor-plated front fighters. More elegant...but with no no no not any kind of magic! This should be my first non-magic character :D .

I know, that there is the possibility to start my career as rogue or bard to create such a character, but we've got a rogue already and a bard is again a caster, just with singing, dancing and so on...that's why I choose a fighter...

When I say "bye bye" to my idea of using the duelist class, how do I have to modify my fighter, to become a musketeer ;)
Well, do look into the Fighter archetypes, since if you go vanilla all your Armor Training will go to waste.

Also, I'll suggestion again the Urban Barbarian, possibly with Fighter dips, it's not like you're wearing a tag "Hi, I'm a Barbarian, feel free to treat me like an uneducated piece of muscle.", so you can very well fluff the rage as being sheer awesomeness or something. Also, look into the Rage Powers, those things are shiny as hell. (yes, I'm a fan of Barbarians).

[LadyJane]

Well, there is the Cavalier archetype Musketeer, but I'm not sure that it is what you want.

Free-Hand Fighter (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/free-hand-fighter) sounds a bit more like what you are looking for.

The Cad (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/cad)
Is another option, but I don't think it is quite like what you are asking for.

/edit Musketeer (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/musketeer) link if you want to take a look.

The Free-Hand-Fighter seems to be the kind of character, I was thinking about; thank you for that hint :)

The idea to start with a babarian is not bad, but a Half-Elf-Babarian...puh, I'm not sure if I ever heard of such a person in Faerun ;) and I had to rewrite my background story for my character...sorry, when I think about babarians I always see a huge valkyrie or viking in front of me - and this pictures does not match with my picture of a musketeer - sorry, I think I'm a bit prejudiced

This archetype-stuff is new for me - is it right, that I only replace the feats, which I get from one lvl to the next with the feats of the archetype?
If I use this Free-hand-Fighter-Archetype (I have to ask my Gamemaster first :D ) is it a good idea to make a dex-fighter? I thought about selecting these feats:
Dodge, Weapon Finesse, perhaps Mobility? Weapon Focus (though I'm not sure which weapon could match - a rapier...??), Initiative and improved critical?

[Krazzman]

I've got a better Idea.

Want a musketeer? Either the Cavalier or a Rogue would be your best bet. Rogue is skill and deathful.

Rogue:
Take Combat Expertise and Butterfly Sting, Take a Rapier (make it keen for 15-20 critchance). (Want the same thing with a Scimitar? Swashbuckler Rogue loses Trapfinding and Trapsense for: Double Combat Feat as Rogue Talent and a Martial weapon of choice)

The Paladin either should take: A Scythe (later with Burst enchantments) or a Bow. Now tell the paladin to shoot your enemies. Everytime you would do a critical hit (yes after confirmation) give it to the paladin.
By the way: I prefer Thallins Guide to paladins.

[Alleran]

Or what's the favorite weapon of Lathander??
Either a light or heavy mace.

[Larpus]

The Free-Hand-Fighter seems to be the kind of character, I was thinking about; thank you for that hint :)

The idea to start with a babarian is not bad, but a Half-Elf-Babarian...puh, I'm not sure if I ever heard of such a person in Faerun ;) and I had to rewrite my background story for my character...sorry, when I think about babarians I always see a huge valkyrie or viking in front of me - and this pictures does not match with my picture of a musketeer - sorry, I think I'm a bit prejudiced

This archetype-stuff is new for me - is it right, that I only replace the feats, which I get from one lvl to the next with the feats of the archetype?
If I use this Free-hand-Fighter-Archetype (I have to ask my Gamemaster first :D ) is it a good idea to make a dex-fighter? I thought about selecting these feats:
Dodge, Weapon Finesse, perhaps Mobility? Weapon Focus (though I'm not sure which weapon could match - a rapier...??), Initiative and improved critical?
It's ok, it was just a suggestion and, as I said, I'm a huge Barbarian enthusiast, so whenever I try to make a martial character, I try to make it a Barbarian.

And the archetype is quite simple, on the archetype chart it mentions what you lose from the base class and what you gain and on which levels. Most of them follow a simple "lose-gain" formula, where you replace one of the vanilla class' abilities with the archetype one, but there are cases where you lose very little and gain very much and vice-versa.

In the specific case you don't receive Bravery, Armor Training/Mastery and Weapon Training (but apparently you do receive Mastery); instead gaining the listed abilities of the Free Hand Fighter.

If you're gonna make a Dex Fighter, then it's a very good idea to grab teh Dervish Dance feat as already suggested and either use a scimitar or ask if you can use it with a rapier or whatever is your weapon of choice, so your damage output is not hurt or you have a MAD problem by needing high Dex and Str.

Other good ideas might be to base your build around crit damage, since both rapier and scimitar have a 18-20 range, so with Improved Critical you'll be critting 1/4 of the time. Mobility is only good if you plan to actually use it, otherwise it's a wasted feat IMO. Also, grabbing couple Combat Maneuvers can be pretty cool since it doesn't look like you don't provoke AoO when doing them, also there's a feat (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/feats/combat-feats/agile-maneuvers-combat) for using Dex instead of Str for CMB.

[ThatLovin'Elan]

If you want to play a musketeer, might I suggest the Musketeer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/musketeer)? :smallbiggrin:

Depends on your DM's attitude toward firearms, though.

The way an Archetype works is: Take the base class, remove anything the Archetype says to replace and add everything the Archetype gives; some Archetypes only make tiny changes to the class, some make large changes (such as the Ranger ones that remove spellcasting), and some almost completely rewrite the class. Take a look at all the Fighter Archetypes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes) and see what crunch best meets your fluff.

Just found this prestige class: Student of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/student-of-war). Not amazing, but could be interesting.

[Chained Birds]

If I remember correctly, the Kensai Magus gains duelist-like abilities and has some pretty nifty talents.

[LadyJane]

Thank you all for your help.

I decided to try the Free-Hand-Fighter and try to get the Dervish-Dance-Feat (have to ask my Gamemaster) - with this feat I can give less attention to strength (strength 10)and and would try to go the "high-crit-way" with a high dex or the "disarm-way" - perhaps 13 int for some feats...

If I'm not allowed to use the feat I've to think about another way...not so much dex, some points in strength and no points in int...

I just have to wait what my gamemaster decides...dervish-dance-feat would be awesome...

[Larpus]

Thank you all for your help.

I decided to try the Free-Hand-Fighter and try to get the Dervish-Dance-Feat (have to ask my Gamemaster) - with this feat I can give less attention to strength (strength 10)and and would try to go the "high-crit-way" with a high dex or the "disarm-way" - perhaps 13 int for some feats...

If I'm not allowed to use the feat I've to think about another way...not so much dex, some points in strength and no points in int...

I just have to wait what my gamemaster decides...dervish-dance-feat would be awesome...
It would, but if he doesn't, do consider grabbing a Whip and become a combat maneuver monster, so sure, you don't do great damage most of the time, but everything within your 15ft reach is always on their backs whining.

Regardless, another thing to consider is that, if there is someone one the party with a big mean weapon with a x3 or x4 crit, taking Butterfly Sting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical) can be pretty swell, so whenever you crit, you can let go of it and give it to your big weapon friend.