Pathfinder: A 1v1 PvP Tournament?!

[Dread Angel]

Hello everyone!

So, I was chatting with my buddy Bill and we came up with the idea of running a 1v1 Pathfinder PvP tournament, Round-Robin style, 5th level. Only stuff from the Core Rulebook allowed, with no Artifacts or Wondrous Items, no spell levels 4 or higher, and with "fly", "levitate", "summon swarm", and "greater invisibility" outlawed as well as "fireball", "lightning bolt", and "call lightning" .. and "scorching ray." The idea here is, for those who want to play casters, to force them to use the more uncommon spells to generate the effect they want. I whipped up a Wizard that essentially uses Hold Person, Web and Grease.

The battlefield is 80x80 ft, with a 10x10x5 foot block in the center, and one 10 ft. from each corner, to provide the option of cover and to make charge-based characters a little less overpowerful... the rules being developed during a LOT of playtesting various things.

Stats are all the same for each character, 18 16 15 14 12 10 to be placed wherever, before racial modifiers.

My girlfriend and I have been messing around with all kinds of things.

She's got a rogue that uses Bleeding Attack to really really screw with you over time. That plus a wand of Invisibility and a damn good Bluff score makes her really damn dangerous.

But what I've decided is that my Wizard is VERY good...if I win initiative, cause I can hit with Hold person (buffed to DC 19), and once they're held I can just go and remove their weapons from their person, neutralizing the threat from most characters...and also gaining time to cast Mage Armor and Shield, bringing my AC up to 22 (i don't wear armor), and I have a 15-20-crit +1 Rapier...so I'm able to fend for myself in melee.

Good character but technical enough that if I get up against anyone with a buffed up Will save or SR, I'm in trouble.

On the flip side, my fighter has 20 AC, +12 attack with his halberd with 1d10+10 damage without Power Attack .. and with +13 total to trip attacks, with improved trip etc. 59 HP...more reliable.

What would you suggest I take? Wizard or Fighter?

[Madeiner]

At that level, invisibility = win. Wizards played good will almost always win.

What comes to mind is uhm grease, invisibility, web as you said, summoned creatures...

If you can prepare before the fight, then explosive runes comes to mind.

Oh and since it's pathfinder, a conjuration (teleportation) specialist will come in handy.

[Eldariel]

*chuckle* Fireball, Lightning Bolt & Scorching Ray banned? I guess you're forced to be efficient then. But yeah, Wizard's a good call even with those restrictions. He does have Invisibility, Pyrotechnics, Slow, Ray of Exhaustion (Fatigued = no charge which is really convenient), Grease, Reduce Person, Enlarge Person (if you wanna fight) and...well, all the good spells.

If you do disable someone to the point where they can't move, just kill them. Like, Coup de Grace; cut their head off. Scythe is a great weapon for that job; auto-crit from a 2d4 x4 = minimum of 8 damage (with insanely small chances; average 20) for a probably lethal Fort-save-or-die. No need for proficiency to execute.


You could also cross-class hide, carry Tower Shield for full cover, etc. All the basic good stuff.

[Zherog]

If you're interested in a whole system for PvP in Pathfinder, check out Conflict Roleplaying (http://www.conflictroleplaying.com/). On the site, you'll want to dig around to find the "core rules." (I'd find it for you, but my company's firewall blocks their site.)

[Dread Angel]

Heh, yeah, I prepped a Ray of Exhaustion a few times, but I kept rolling low with it. Problem is you're not allowed to go into the battle with any spells cast. I dunno, I think I might remake the wizard to focus on Strength, and use feats to buff the hell outta Hold Person's DC. Use a scythe as you said, and just slice their faces off.

[stormtemplar]

What sort of GP limit was there on items? Magic weapons? Had a goofy idea. (On topic, I haven't done the analysis but my gut says wizard.

[Dread Angel]

Standard character wealth for 5th level, 10500 GP total. I originally thought about placing a limit on how much could be spent on a single item, but as Bill pointed out, "If they want to spend all their gold on one item, let them. Then they're a one-trick pony, and every trick as a counter to it."

I'm leaning towards Wizard, but I might tweak it a bit.

Now, I have a question. If an enemy has cast invisibility, but is wearing obvious magical items...such as, for example, an enchanted headband... and I have Detect Magic on, does the invisibility spell also conceal the magic aura from the enchanted headband, or can I see the aura if it's within range? I know that I still don't technically have "line of sight" to them and so can't cast anything directly at the enemy but it would be handy to know where to aim my Burning Hands and still hit.

[Eldariel]

Heh, yeah, I prepped a Ray of Exhaustion a few times, but I kept rolling low with it. Problem is you're not allowed to go into the battle with any spells cast. I dunno, I think I might remake the wizard to focus on Strength, and use feats to buff the hell outta Hold Person's DC. Use a scythe as you said, and just slice their faces off.

No, focus on Intelligence (start 19, +1 level 4, +2 item, no exceptions except maybe start Middle-Aged with base 20 for 21, +1 level 4 and +2 item). 10 Str is enough to deal lethal Coup de Graces to disabled opponents. Int > Dex > Con. Use Bow and/or Alchemist's Fires as your actual combat weapons and carry a Scythe only for the finishing blows. Don't forget to skill Acrobatics to move and attack with less risk of an AOO.

[Dread Angel]

No, focus on Intelligence (start 19, +1 level 4, +2 item, no exceptions except maybe start Middle-Aged with base 20 for 21, +1 level 4 and +2 item). 10 Str is enough to deal lethal Coup de Graces to disabled opponents. Int > Dex > Con. Use Bow and/or Alchemist's Fires as your actual combat weapons and carry a Scythe only for the finishing blows. Don't forget to skill Acrobatics to move and attack with less risk of an AOO.

That's a really good suggestion. I'll build that now and see what it looks like... sounds pretty good.

[deuxhero]

no Artifacts or Wondrous Items?

So to spend that 10500 you are limited to weapons, armor, rings, rods, potions scrolls and staffs and can't boost your stat mods? That's... odd.

[Dread Angel]

In the case of wondrous items, you can get around it for stat mods by just creating them yourself, as the player. End effect of that is that you can get any "wondrous" item that has that sort of enchantment, but not, for example, a "quaal's feather token: swan boat" to throw from your sling and take them out via flying frigging boat to the head...I've had it happen before.

[Zherog]

Now, I have a question. If an enemy has cast invisibility, but is wearing obvious magical items...such as, for example, an enchanted headband... and I have Detect Magic on, does the invisibility spell also conceal the magic aura from the enchanted headband, or can I see the aura if it's within range? I know that I still don't technically have "line of sight" to them and so can't cast anything directly at the enemy but it would be handy to know where to aim my Burning Hands and still hit.

The aura of the item would detect, as would the invisibility spell itself. However, note that it takes 3 rounds - and the target needs to stand still - to know which square. Round 1 tells you there's magic somewhere, round 2 tells you how many auras, third round tells you the location and strength of each aura.

So yes, detect magic can be used to find invisible targets - but only if they're dumb enough to stand in one spot for three rounds.

[jaybird]

Invisibiliy, Color Spray, Glitterdust, Daze Monster, Hideous Laughter, Scare. Coup de Grace everything with a dagger. If the enemy uses a weapon, component pouch, or other sort of focus, Shatter. If you really want some hilarity, Flaming Sphere plus Pyrotechnics. This is only up to 2nd level spells. 3rd level spells include prizes such as Heatstroke and Stinking Cloud.

As an aside, see if your DM rules that destroying something that Explosive Runes are written on counts as an attempt to dispel them. If so, wrap Explosive Runes papers around bottles of Alchemist's Fire. Throw, fire burns paper, Explosive Runes go off.

[Talentless]

Hello everyone!

So, I was chatting with my buddy Bill and we came up with the idea of running a 1v1 Pathfinder PvP tournament, Round-Robin style, 5th level. Only stuff from the Core Rulebook allowed, with no Artifacts or Wondrous Items, no spell levels 4 or higher, and with "fly", "levitate", "summon swarm", and "greater invisibility" outlawed as well as "fireball", "lightning bolt", and "call lightning" .. and "scorching ray." The idea here is, for those who want to play casters, to force them to use the more uncommon spells to generate the effect they want. I whipped up a Wizard that essentially uses Hold Person, Web and Grease.

The battlefield is 80x80 ft, with a 10x10x5 foot block in the center, and one 10 ft. from each corner, to provide the option of cover and to make charge-based characters a little less overpowerful... the rules being developed during a LOT of playtesting various things.

Stats are all the same for each character, 18 16 15 14 12 10 to be placed wherever, before racial modifiers.



You know, it occurs to me that under these rules, a Monk is actually not the weakest option to tank, especially with some of the PF upgrades.

Human Monk 5
Stats after Race and Level
12 STR
16 DEX
16 CON
14 INT
20 WIS
10 CHA

5d8 + 15 health

+1 Guided Kukri (Wis to Attack and Damage, flurryable)

It may burn most of your budget on one item, but that one item allows a monk to dump strength from the build.

As this is a highly specific and limited match, you can build differently, so take Dodge(MBonus1), Combat Reflexes(MBonus2), Lightning Reflexes,and two more feat of choice(rushed build :smallwink:). Sadly, as this is only 5th level, not 6th, you cannot take the one feat that would instantly make you the bane of any unprepared spell caster in this contest, Jawbreaker (Allows stunning fist to break the targets jaw, basically if they don't have silent spells prepared or a rod of silent spell, they're screwed.)


Use your skill points right (Acrobatics, Escape Artist) to avoid the after effects of the two most useful battlefield control spells and you have a good chance of making into range to start wrecking the wizard.

If there are more ways to tweak this build, or some fatal flaw i missed, feel free to let me know:smallfrown:

[Chained Birds]

A superstitious Barbarian would also annoy many spellcasters with their high saves and potential OHK (One-Hit-Kill) against the squishy wizard. Give him some defensive magic items (like cloak of resistance) and, for fun, make him an Elan Barbarian.

14 Wis (+2) + Base (+2) + Elan (+4 racial) + Rage (+2) + Superstitious (+2) = +12 will saves vs spells/supernatural/spell-like ability.

[Dread Angel]

A superstitious Barbarian would also annoy many spellcasters with their high saves and potential OHK (One-Hit-Kill) against the squishy wizard. Give him some defensive magic items (like cloak of resistance) and, for fun, make him an Elan Barbarian.

14 Wis (+2) + Base (+2) + Elan (+4 racial) + Rage (+2) + Superstitious (+2) = +12 will saves vs spells/supernatural/spell-like ability.

That would be freaking hilarious just to screw with people.
"Hold person. Make a will save."
"Okay...*roll a 6*."
"Hah!"
"Nope, that's an 18."
"WHAT?!"

:P I can just see the look on my friends' faces.

But the problem with that is that it's a Core Rulebook only tournament, so Elan isn't a legal race. Damn shame because they're one of my favorites.

[Eldariel]

You know, it occurs to me that under these rules, a Monk is actually not the weakest option to tank, especially with some of the PF upgrades.

Human Monk 5
Stats after Race and Level
12 STR
16 DEX
16 CON
14 INT
20 WIS
10 CHA

5d8 + 15 health

+1 Guided Kukri (Wis to Attack and Damage, flurryable)

It may burn most of your budget on one item, but that one item allows a monk to dump strength from the build.

As this is a highly specific and limited match, you can build differently, so take Dodge(MBonus1), Combat Reflexes(MBonus2), Lightning Reflexes,and two more feat of choice(rushed build :smallwink:). Sadly, as this is only 5th level, not 6th, you cannot take the one feat that would instantly make you the bane of any unprepared spell caster in this contest, Jawbreaker (Allows stunning fist to break the targets jaw, basically if they don't have silent spells prepared or a rod of silent spell, they're screwed.)


Use your skill points right (Acrobatics, Escape Artist) to avoid the after effects of the two most useful battlefield control spells and you have a good chance of making into range to start wrecking the wizard.

If there are more ways to tweak this build, or some fatal flaw i missed, feel free to let me know:smallfrown:

I don't think Guided is allowed; this is only Core Rulebook and I'm pretty sure it's from Ultimate Combat. Aside from that, remember that the build would have to beat all comers. The suggested Monk isn't very good against most of the possible match-ups. Imagine Barbarian, for instance. He'd wreck Monk. Or Fighter. Or Pally. Or Ranger. Or a martially built Cleric. Anything martial would wreck this here Monk since they play the same game but are plain stronger at it; more to hit, more damage, more AC (with less investment), more reach, better combat maneuvers (indeed, something like grapple would be hell for this here Monk), better ranged attacks ('cause Bows > Shurikens), etc.

As for the Barbarian, don't forget Wizard can target all your saves and your touch AC. I'd find some way to improve the Ref-save. While the Monk is pretty hard for a Wizard to easily disable, the Wizard still has the advantage of being able to go invisible and either buffing himself into a combat machine or maybe summoning something or some such. Actually, I'm not too well-versed in PF Summons.

As for the Wizard itself, if just looking to maximize the save DCs I'd consider Spell Focus: Conjuration. Conjuration can target all three saves with relatively brutal effects on these levels (Glitterdust, Web, Grease, Stinking Cloud) so if you can get to 24 Int (again, 20 point buy + racial, +1 age, +1 level, +2 item) you could be looking at DC 21-22 saves (with Greater Spell Focus), quite hard even for people dedicated in improving that save. Barbarian with 16 Con on level 5 has only like +12 or so Fort-save with some work invested in it, while raging (4 Base + 3 Con + 2 Rage Con + 2 Magic + 1 Generic 'Cause There's Always Something) and so could easily fail the Fort-save. The Monk suggested earlier? 4 Base + 3 Con, against Stinking Cloud we're looking at needing a roll of 15 or higher to succeed vs. nausea (aka. "You're pretty ****ed" - at that point you of course still need something to kill them but you have plenty of turns to come up with that). And even not having Age-categories it'd be DC 21.

[Dread Angel]

Alright, having just created an Enchanter following an amalgamation of everyone's suggestions, I'm quite pleased with how this has worked out. I've got Arcane Sight ready to find invisibles, since pretty much everyone will reliably have magic items.

The DC of my Hold Person is a total of 22 now. Once I've hit them with that, I can do a total of (2d4)x3+18 damage per coup-de-gras with my scythe (which I'm not proficient with, lol). AC is 13 without Mage Armor or Shield, which is only 1 less than my first version of the character. 21 with both those spells, but I hope to not need to cast them. Initiative bonus is +5, not the best, but hopefully the dice will be merciful. I wanted to put an Alert enhancement on the scythe to get an Initiative boost but unfortunately, that enhancement doesn't seem to exist in the Core Rulebook.

I've still got a bunch of gold, precisely 3182, left over to spend on stuff. Not quite sure what to spend it on.

[Chained Birds]

That would be freaking hilarious just to screw with people.
"Hold person. Make a will save."
"Okay...*roll a 6*."
"Hah!"
"Nope, that's an 18."
"WHAT?!"

:P I can just see the look on my friends' faces.

But the problem with that is that it's a Core Rulebook only tournament, so Elan isn't a legal race. Damn shame because they're one of my favorites.

Don't care! I'm making this now! I'll call it the "Raging Mind Barbarian" (Maybe use Serene Rager and a dip in monk).

Relevant to the OP, just use the Barbarian I mentioned before, minus Elan race. Use Human and take the Will boosting feat + trait (There should be one) and a cloak of resistance +X to even things out. Note, if you can afford a Cloak of R. +3 (9000gp I think), then you can use the bonus Human feat for something useful. Power Attack + Furious Focus (if APH is alright) and whatever other Atk boosting and/or Dmg boosting feats you can think of.

[Talentless]

I don't think Guided is allowed; this is only Core Rulebook and I'm pretty sure it's from Ultimate Combat. Aside from that, remember that the build would have to beat all comers. The suggested Monk isn't very good against most of the possible match-ups. Imagine Barbarian, for instance. He'd wreck Monk. Or Fighter. Or Pally. Or Ranger. Or a martially built Cleric. Anything martial would wreck this here Monk since they play the same game but are plain stronger at it; more to hit, more damage, more AC (with less investment), more reach, better combat maneuvers (indeed, something like grapple would be hell for this here Monk), better ranged attacks ('cause Bows > Shurikens), etc.

As for the Barbarian, don't forget Wizard can target all your saves and your touch AC. I'd find some way to improve the Ref-save. While the Monk is pretty hard for a Wizard to easily disable, the Wizard still has the advantage of being able to go invisible and either buffing himself into a combat machine or maybe summoning something or some such. Actually, I'm not too well-versed in PF Summons.

As for the Wizard itself, if just looking to maximize the save DCs I'd consider Spell Focus: Conjuration. Conjuration can target all three saves with relatively brutal effects on these levels (Glitterdust, Web, Grease, Stinking Cloud) so if you can get to 24 Int (again, 20 point buy + racial, +1 age, +1 level, +2 item) you could be looking at DC 21-22 saves (with Greater Spell Focus), quite hard even for people dedicated in improving that save. Barbarian with 16 Con on level 5 has only like +12 or so Fort-save with some work invested in it, while raging (4 Base + 3 Con + 2 Rage Con + 2 Magic + 1 Generic 'Cause There's Always Something) and so could easily fail the Fort-save. The Monk suggested earlier? 4 Base + 3 Con, against Stinking Cloud we're looking at needing a roll of 15 or higher to succeed vs. nausea (aka. "You're pretty ****ed" - at that point you of course still need something to kill them but you have plenty of turns to come up with that). And even not having Age-categories it'd be DC 21.


Huh, well that is just stupid to disallow the one weapon property that keeps the Monk from getting jacked over with MAD. Meh.

As for any other martial classes, you are forgetting that Monks have two Iterative attacks a round, three if they spend a Ki point on it. Everyone else has 1, two with TWF, but usually at a very low positive bonus because of the stat ad. The Monk's Flurry attack bonus start at +3 before they even add stat bonus.

At any rate, I know that Monk build is not the best, it was rushed. I'm just saying that under the rules presented, it is possible to build a pretty beefed up level 5 monk that can be very effective in the limited enviroment.

[Eldariel]

Huh, well that is just stupid to disallow the one weapon property that keeps the Monk from getting jacked over with MAD. Meh.

Well, it's not like they're selectively disallowing stuff; it's just Corebook only.


As for any other martial classes, you are forgetting that Monks have two Iterative attacks a round, three if they spend a Ki point on it. Everyone else has 1, two with TWF, but usually at a very low positive bonus because of the stat ad. The Monk's Flurry attack bonus start at +3 before they even add stat bonus.

Nonono, I accounted for that, it's just that it's not enough to compete with the two-handers. This math has been done a hundred times. A Raging Barbarian with a two-hander will hit harder than Monk's two attacks and have massively higher To Hit to boot (at least +2 from Rage, +2 from not TWFing & probably +2 Str item in this case for ~+5 advantage on To Hit and 2d4+12 damage; Power Attack would shift this to ~+3 advantage on To Hit but 2d4+18 damage, which is quite reliably higher than Monk's two attacks even if both connect, and that's before we account for reach). Fighter can get similar numbers through the most trivial means as can Pally or Ranger or Cleric (though Pally and Cleric prolly want to spend a round buffing in the start of combat which is quite the weakness).