Hide In Plain Sight

[Chained Birds]

Okay, an experienced 3.5 player has told me the class ability "Hide in Plain Sight" is extremely broken, if not, gamebreaking and is baned from any game he DMs (Replaced by a Fighter bonus feat instead). According to him (And RAW seems to back him up on most of it) the HiPS ability is unbeatable by all forms of detection minus a basic Spot check. As the ability only requires a bit of shadow and a move action, one roguish character can never be truly seen EVER!

Does anyone know what abilities/feats/spells/ect. can be used to counter HiPS?

-- List --
[Light] spells with an AoE.
Anti-Magic vs (su) HiPS.
GLITTERDUST!
Intelligent undead with Lifesense.
Telepathic enemies with Mindsight.
Psionic enemies with Touchsight.
Psionic enemies with Aura Sight (as long as the HiPS character is moving).

[MesiDoomstalker]

Any spell with the [Light] descriptor. Tremorsense, Blindsense, and Blindsight (barring Darkstalker). Detect [Relevant Alignment]. Detect [anything that would detect the HiPS-er in question]. I'm sure theres a spell that pings living and non-living creatures but I'm not sure of the the name. Spot check. Wide-open, flat plain.

Also, do note that there are several versions of HiPS and depending on which one you have the conditions may be harder and easier to meet and then abuse.

And as this is for sneaky, rogue-ish like characters, haveing mundane, not easily beaten stealthy is not very broken compared to Chain-Gating Solars.

[Ayedi_Star]

First off, there are multiple forms of HiPS:

one requires concealment to use, another requires shadowy-illumination at best, and one more I know of is only stopped by daylight-level illumination.

He's wrong on the spot check, however: dark vision, blindsight (maybe blindsense too), scent ability, a few others, all can detect it.

On their own, these are not broken.

What he's probably adding in is the darkstalker feat from lords of madness, which does help counter most of those (but is still liable to a listen or spot check to counter).

EDIT: Swordsage'd on some information, but I define three of the HiPS variants.

[Chained Birds]

DMG Assassin HiPS is what my friend usually refers to.
And those abilities (Tremorsense, Blindsense, etc.) may "sense" an enemy within the area (non-Darkstalker), but the HiPS character would still be hidden.

Light spells will work, but with light comes shadow, and many enemies will rarely have an AoE light spell handy. But still noted.

[MesiDoomstalker]

DMG Assassin HiPS is what my friend usually refers to.
And those abilities (Tremorsense, Blindsense, etc.) may "sense" an enemy within the area (non-Darkstalker), but the HiPS character would still be hidden.

Light spells will work, but with light comes shadow, and many enemies will rarely have an AoE light spell handy. But still noted.

Most Angels have SLA's and/or Cleric casting. Use them for Mr. Evil Assassain.

[ILM]

DMG Assassin HiPS is what my friend usually refers to.
And those abilities (Tremorsense, Blindsense, etc.) may "sense" an enemy within the area (non-Darkstalker), but the HiPS character would still be hidden.

Light spells will work, but with light comes shadow, and many enemies will rarely have an AoE light spell handy. But still noted.
The Assassin HiPS is (Su), meaning it's also defeated by an AMF. However, the (Ex) version doesn't mention you can hide without having anything to actually hide behind.

The hiding character may still be hidden (in that he has concealment vs. the detecting creature) but the detecting creature knows it's there and can take a swipe at it (or drop an AoE effect), which means your sneaky infiltration has probably failed anyway, and you're likely to find yourself HP-impaired in the near future.

[Chained Birds]

Most Angels have SLA's and/or Cleric casting. Use them for Mr. Evil Assassain.

What if he repented and became CN and only uses a sap for non-lethal death attacks? :smallamused:

Edit: Anti-Magic is now noted for Assassins. Does the Shadow Dancer have a similar effect?

[MesiDoomstalker]

GLITTERDUST! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm)

If they can ovecome a -40 to hide checks, they are out of your league anyways.

[nedz]

Ah yes a 17th level Ranger with HiPS is so broken compared to, erm, 9th level spells for the Wizard.
Why can't he just ban Assassin ?

[Chained Birds]

GLITTERDUST! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm)

If they can ovecome a -40 to hide checks, they are out of your league anyways.

Noted. The most common anti-sneaky spell.

[Curmudgeon]

According to him (And RAW seems to back him up on most of it) the HiPS ability is unbeatable by all forms of detection minus a basic Spot check. As the ability only requires a bit of shadow and a move action, one roguish character can never be truly seen EVER!
So you can't be seen? Even with Darkstalker the roguish character still needs to worry about Touchsight, Lifesense, Aura Sight, and Mindsight. And then there are other senses to avoid; hearing (Listen check) and smell (Scent ability). There are many ways of being detected, and the roguish character, even with dedicated effort, isn't going to bypass all of them.

Compared to spells, a good Hide ability is nowhere close to broken.

[Chained Birds]

I'm aware of Lifesense and Mindsight, but where do the other 2 come from?

[Yora]

HiPS really isn't that special, it only becomes a bit weird when combied with Camouflage and the ability to hide in shadows.

I think the basic concept is that you are really good at finding non-obvious hiding spots:
Anyone can hide in an empty too shed. But when someone sees you going into the shed, they only have to look inside it and will instantly see you. He knows where your hiding place is and does not have to start looking for you.
But if you have HiPS, you can run into the shed while someone sees you, but you are so awesome at hiding that you can squeeze yourself under the roof above the door or drap an old blanket over you in a way that it is not instantly obvious that you are under it. You might still be found, but your persuer would have to make a spot check against your hide check.

If you have camouflage, it gets a bit more complicated. I think the idea is that you cover yourself with leaves or sand. Normally you would need a big boulder (cover) or some shrubs (concealment) as a hiding place, but high level rangers know how to blend with the ground.
So as a ranger, you could run into a small empty cave whily being observed, and would still be able to make a hide check just by pressing yourself against the wall in a shady corner. But I think just lying down on the ground 20 meter from someone who watches you and then expecting that he has no idea where you have gone while standing right next to you does not work.
RAW says it does, but I think that is one of the countless cases in which the GM has to make a call what works and what not.

When you can hide in shadows, it gets even more complicated. I have no idea by what logic this is supposed to work, as you can hide in the middle of a sunny road because there is a shady alley 10 feet away from you? This 10 feet limit does not make any sense.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm aware of Lifesense and Mindsight, but where do the other 2 come from?
Psionic powers: Aura Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/auraSight.htm) and Touchsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm).

I have no idea by what logic this is supposed to work, as you can hide in the middle of a sunny road because there is a shady alley 10 feet away from you? This 10 feet limit does not make any sense.
It's just magic; that's why those versions of Hide in Plain Sight are Supernatural, and fail in an Antimagic Field.

[Tonal Architect]

So you can't be seen? Even with Darkstalker the roguish character still needs to worry about Touchsight, Lifesense, Aura Sight, and Mindsight. And then there are other senses to avoid; hearing (Listen check) and smell (Scent ability). There are many ways of being detected, and the roguish character, even with dedicated effort, isn't going to bypass all of them.

Compared to spells, a good Hide ability is nowhere close to broken.

One could argue that Lifesense wouldn't work, as it's description states it doesn't work as a X-Ray vision. Hiding in Plain Sight is the ability to create concealment where there is none, so it makes no sense to use that as a radar.

Mindsight is a win, at least until the Rogue gets himself a Hat of Anonimity.

Aura Sight would work as long as the Rogue remains still... It shares its workings with the Detect Magic spell, so until the third round, it wouldn't pinpoint the hidden rogue, but after that, he will have trouble.

I wouldn't say Touchsight automatically uncovers a Rogue with Darkstalker, given that the cover of the book where said feat comes from depicts a huge Mind Flayer, and that such feat is theoretically created to counter said creatures, who are infamous for being psions.

Darkstalker is supposed to cover the Scent ability, actually. It's reasonable to rule that if Scent is a skill (I'm not sure), you could include it in the list of skills used to detected a Darkstalker rogue (listen or search, normally, whichever is higher), but Darkstalker is supposed to level the playing field for the rogue, forcing others to play fair and stick to their guns and go around searching, instead of deploying their "I Win" senses-button.

A non-hidden rogue is pretty much dead, and a hidden rogue might still be somewhat deadly, especially in high levels. Makes no sense to take that away from him, unless you simply want the class to become non-viable.

The bottom line would really go along the lines of "Why can't non-casters have nice things?".

[dextercorvia]

Also remember, that just not seeing them doesn't mean not detecting them. There are plenty of ways to detect a hiding character (many of them above), then you just have to eat the 50% concealment and target the square.

[Person_Man]

Even if someone is hidden, you can often guess what space they're in or near, and just shoot your Fireball or Solid Fog or Breath Weapon or any other area of effect attack into it.

Also, a hidden creature is revealed when they attack in any way. Thus counter attacks, such as Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, or just readying an action, suffer no penalty.

And keep in mind that according to the SRD, the action to Hide is "Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action." Thus if your target cannot move (because they are Grappled, or entangled with a net with a rope, or whatever) then they cannot Hide unless they are Sniping, which incurs a pretty big penalty.

Finally, every DM/GM I have ever played with for the past 20 years in every roleplaying game I've ever played in has allowed me to use chalk and/or coal dust to coat the floor around me to see the footsteps of a hidden/invisible creature. In 3.5 D&D specifically you would still have to deal with the 50% miss chance (which could be mitigated by any Blind-Fight feat or ability). But if you can figure out or even guess what space your enemy is in, you can still attack them. Even if your DM doesn't allow the standard chalk dust trope, if you're standing in a narrow hallway, chances are they're directly in front of you.

[Yora]

Also remember, that just not seeing them doesn't mean not detecting them. There are plenty of ways to detect a hiding character (many of them above), then you just have to eat the 50% concealment and target the square.
I don't think so. When a character is hidden, you don't know where he is. He does not become invisible. When you know the square he is in and you have line of sight, you see him. So you can attack directly, though possibl still with the penalty for concealment.

[Gullintanni]

Would Arcane Sight work to pinpoint the square the target was in? I don't think Hide or HiPS conceals the magic auras swirling around your magical goodies. Detect Magic would work too, but it requires concentration so it'd be harder to capitalize on the effect.

Odds are, attacking the square with the magic in it will yield something...don't try this in a maze with magically reinforced walls though :smalltongue:

[dextercorvia]

I don't think so. When a character is hidden, you don't know where he is. He does not become invisible. When you know the square he is in and you have line of sight, you see him. So you can attack directly, though possibl still with the penalty for concealment.

What are you disagreeing with?

[Yora]

With targeting a square against hidden enemies.

[dextercorvia]

With targeting a square against hidden enemies.

How else do you propose attacking something you can't see? You can't have LoS to a hidden creature.

[Stormageddon]

Isn't greater invisibility better (that the assassin should have by this point) than HiPS anyway?

[Zaq]

Isn't greater invisibility better (that the assassin should have by this point) than HiPS anyway?

It's much worse, actually. A whole lot of things can see through invisibility. It takes a high Spot check (or nonstandard senses . . . very nonstandard, if the one hiding has Darkstalker) to see something hidden.

[Curmudgeon]

And keep in mind that according to the SRD, the action to Hide is "Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action." Thus if your target cannot move (because they are Grappled, or entangled with a net with a rope, or whatever) then they cannot Hide unless they are Sniping, which incurs a pretty big penalty.
Sorry, but you've fallen into one of the pitfalls of the poorly organized Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) skill description. What you've overlooked is the part that really makes a difference when you add Hide in Plain Sight:
It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. Hide (except for Sniping, a special option for ranged attacks when you don't have HiPS) does not have a separate action. Instead, there are a limited number of other actions on which you are allowed to piggy-back a Hide check. The usual option (because there's no penalty if you move slowly) is movement. However, you can also Hide while attacking, as I highlighted in the skill quote. So if you can attack, you can (try to) Hide when Hide in Plain Sight satisfies the skill use requirements.

With -20 to your check this is mostly an option for higher level roguish characters, but you might get lucky against a grappling opponent at low levels (perhaps because there's always a -5 Spot penalty while in combat). And it's definitely worth the effort to try to Hide because if you succeed your grappling foe cannot target with an attack someone they don't see. They can target everyone in the square, with a 50% miss chance. This use of Hide in Plain Sight is especially amusing if your AC is enough better than theirs that they hit themselves but miss you. :smallwink:

[Safety Sword]

Sorry, but you've fallen into one of the pitfalls of the poorly organized Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) skill description. What you've overlooked is the part that really makes a difference when you add Hide in Plain Sight: Hide (except for Sniping, a special option for ranged attacks when you don't have HiPS) does not have a separate action. Instead, there are a limited number of other actions on which you are allowed to piggy-back a Hide check. The usual option (because there's no penalty if you move slowly) is movement. However, you can also Hide while attacking, as I highlighted in the skill quote. So if you can attack, you can (try to) Hide when Hide in Plain Sight satisfies the skill use requirements.

With -20 to your check this is mostly an option for higher level roguish characters, but you might get lucky against a grappling opponent at low levels (perhaps because there's always a -5 Spot penalty while in combat). And it's definitely worth the effort to try to Hide because if you succeed your grappling foe cannot target with an attack someone they don't see. They can target everyone in the square, with a 50% miss chance. This use of Hide in Plain Sight is especially amusing if your AC is enough better than theirs that they hit themselves but miss you. :smallwink:

It's the most fun you can have as a rogue. I stab it, then Hide. Can't see me, eh? Sneak attack. I Hide :smallamused:

[Curmudgeon]

It's the most fun you can have as a rogue. I stab it, then Hide.
That's something you can't do without moving. You stab and Hide at the same time. So if you weren't already hidden, a successful Hide check while attacking will give you that +2 to hit/deny foe's DEX to AC benefit for that attack ─ plus you'll be hidden afterward.

[Chained Birds]

Looking at my little list at the top, I'm happy to see some abilities that can get through HiPS completely; even with Darkstalker active. At least I found one "not-singling-out-the-assassin-just-so-happens-to-effect-him-too" strategy of dealing with his form of HiPS. Anti-Magic! So no shadow delving for him. :smallsmile:

[Safety Sword]

That's something you can't do without moving. You stab and Hide at the same time. So if you weren't already hidden, a successful Hide check while attacking will give you that +2 to hit/deny foe's DEX to AC benefit for that attack ─ plus you'll be hidden afterward.

You're right of course, bad choice of words on my part. It's not stab then Hide, it's a actually a Stabhide.

Making up words is always better than using the wrong words.

[Provengreil]

as far as any activated ability is concerned(most types of amf, light spells, glitterdust, etc), wouldn't you have to have already detected him, or have some reason to believe he's there, at which point the hide check has more or less run its course?

[faceroll]

GLITTERDUST! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm)

If they can ovecome a -40 to hide checks, they are out of your league anyways.

Ehh, hide is the second easiest skill to pump. I can get +51 on hide checks by level 6. Glitterdust just evens the tables or whatever that metaphor is.

[Wings of Peace]

I'm fairly fond of Mindbender 1 in order to take Mindsight myself. It's also worth noting that Touchsight can be made into a psionic tattoo, so anybody with the money could in theory protect themselves if they wanted to.

[Gullintanni]

as far as any activated ability is concerned(most types of amf, light spells, glitterdust, etc), wouldn't you have to have already detected him, or have some reason to believe he's there, at which point the hide check has more or less run its course?

Not at all. Just because you know what square a target is in, doesn't mean you can see the target. Hence the 50% miss chance when attacking said target. AoE effects still work fine though, so the aforementioned AMF and Glitterdust are likely to render the hidden target completely visible, negating the 50% miss chance.

[Roderick_BR]

From the hypertext SRD:

"A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."

So, it's just a hide check. The only diference is that it allows the character to hide even when being watched, something he can't do with a normal hide check.
I don't think it's any more broken than using the hide check normally. You just don't need to make people look away and jump behind a tree.
Anything that can beat a normal hide check can still detect him. It's not (EX)Invisibility, it's just hide.

[Yora]

However, it can be expected that characters with HiPS have Hide maxed out and few characters can afford really high Spot modifiers.
And since you don't get your Dex-Bonus to AC against enemies you don't see, they can than Sneak Attack and, because hiding is not an action, instantly hide again while standing right next to the character they just stabbed. Being within 10 feet of shadow is apparently enough to hide.

[Chained Birds]

My friend is one of the "Monks are broken!" sort of guys, so high damage from a "reliable" source like SA (or assassin's Death Attack) while using HiPS is what led him to banning the ability. He also brought up that he would really need no strategy for infiltration-type missions, and could pretty much kill any key NPC he wanted without anyone ever knowing.

[Tonal Architect]

Ehh, hide is the second easiest skill to pump. I can get +51 on hide checks by level 6. Glitterdust just evens the tables or whatever that metaphor is.

Could you explain the +51 bit? It is rather relevant to my interests.

[Curmudgeon]

My friend is one of the "Monks are broken!" sort of guys, so high damage from a "reliable" source like SA (or assassin's Death Attack) while using HiPS is what led him to banning the ability. He also brought up that he would really need no strategy for infiltration-type missions, and could pretty much kill any key NPC he wanted without anyone ever knowing.
No strategy? What about opening locks? There's no option to piggy-back a Hide check onto Open Lock, so that's a full-round action each time in plain sight, unhidden. What about guard dogs (or other) with the Scent ability? What does he plan to do if it's pitch black (so no shadows) versus foes with darkvision?

Your friend is seriously not thinking this through. Hide in Plain Sight and a maxed-out Hide skill is good, but it's nowhere near powerful enough for him to eschew strategy. It's not even enough to Hide while attacking enemies with halfway decent Spot skills.

[Yora]

Could you explain the +51 bit? It is rather relevant to my interests.

Even without any cheese, a 1st level halfling rogue can get +14.

4 Ranks
+3 Dex
+4 size
+3 Skill Focus

At 6th level you can have 9 ranks (+5), 18 Dex (+1), Gloves of Dexterity (+1), Cloak of Elvenkind (+5), and Stealthy (+2), and you're at +28. That's more than halfway and still a completely ordinary halfling rogue that any new player could come up with.

[faceroll]

Could you explain the +51 bit? It is rather relevant to my interests.

My bad; it's level 7.

+7 from dex (base 20, +4 from compression power)
+16 from size (kobold counts as tiny, use compression to go down two size classes to fine)
+10 ranks
+10 (enhancement) from Chameleon power
+5 (competence) from cloak of elvenkind
-5 penalty on search/spot checks from spell (level 1 wizard spell, magic of eberron) Distracting Shadows cast on an item you're wearing
+10 (circumstance) from camouflage spell (druid level 1)

Total:
58 (63 with penalty from Distracting Shadows)

Class:
You need at least three levels in a manifesting class and the practiced manifester feat. I recommend lots of levels in psychic rogue, and a dip somewhere to pick up UMD. A wand of camouflage has 7,500 minutes of +10 hiding goodness on it, for only 750gp.

[Curmudgeon]

A wand of camouflage has 7,500 minutes of +10 hiding goodness on it, for only 750gp.
10 minutes/level for a level 1 wand, times 50 charges. How exactly did you get 7,500 minutes out of that? :smallconfused:

[faceroll]

10 minutes/level for a level 1 wand, times 50 charges. How exactly did you get 7,500 minutes out of that? :smallconfused:

Bad math?

[nedz]

Your missing Forestfold (level 3 Druid / Ranger spell)
+10 (competence) to Hide and Move Silent
It wouldn't stack with the cloak, but there again you could just buy a custom +10 (competence) cloak of elvenkind for 10Kgp

[Curmudgeon]

While you can get your Hide number up pretty high, you're going to sacrifice a lot in the process. In particular, going below Small size means you won't get to sneak attack much of anything because you can't reach an enemy's vitals. Distracting Shadows will impair your ability to find traps, which could be embarrassing and potentially lethal.

[faceroll]

While you can get your Hide number up pretty high, you're going to sacrifice a lot in the process. In particular, going below Small size means you won't get to sneak attack much of anything because you can't reach an enemy's vitals. Distracting Shadows will impair your ability to find traps, which could be embarrassing and potentially lethal.

Use a reach weapon, or a ranged weapon, or spells. Or fly.

I typically have my characters put distracting shadows on a stone tied to a leather thong that goes about their wrist. Then they just tuck it into a sleeve or a pocket or other place when they need to make search checks.

[Curmudgeon]

Use a reach weapon, or a ranged weapon, or spells. Or fly.

Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. Double zero is still zero reach.

[faceroll]

Double zero is still zero reach.

So? The line you're referring to is this:

The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.

Quite vague. There's no explicit relationship between how much reach is necessary, or weapon size, or anything. I would imagine getting stabbed in the junk with a tiny spear would hurt a lot, though.

[Curmudgeon]

Quite vague. There's no explicit relationship between how much reach is necessary, or weapon size, or anything.
Weapon size never matters for reach in D&D rules.

.A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.
You've got to get above the legs of a standing character. If you're Fine size you take up 6" of space, and get no benefit from reach weapons. You'll need to fly to get high enough, and also enter the target's space, to be able to reach anything for melee sneak attack.

I didn't say it was impossible to sneak attack something at Fine size; I said you'd sacrifice a lot. In this case, normal options like melee attacks without needing flight capability.

[faceroll]

You're actually diminuitive; kobold's slight built special quality lets them be treated as small for opposed checks when it would be beneficial (like hide vs. spot).

But yeah, being the size of a large toad is still rather small.