Fighter of the group complains, needs new options [Archive]

Mutazoia

2011-10-18, 08:54 AM

A fighters options are in the feats. You don't need to memorize feats, you can use them over and over with out running out of casting slots or power points or any other such nonsense. Whirlwind Attack and Great Cleave can potentially drop more enemies than a well placed fireball. Add a ring of fire resistance and your Sorc. can drop that fireball on top of you, helping your great cleave immensely.

Playing a fighter is more than just "swing sword". It's tactics. Encourage your fighter to get creative on the battle field and challenge her to prove that ancient incantations and hokey religions are no match for a good sword at your side. After all, those pesky casters wouldn't last two minutes with out the fighter keeping the hordes at bay while they cast...

LudiDrizzt

2011-10-18, 08:56 AM

Yeah...the Sorcerer is kind-of dropping Empowered Maximized Combusts and what while in Crucian form...he doesn't really need protecting.

I'll talk to the DM about directing some items towards her. Plus I'll try and rework her feats a bit.

nedz

2011-10-18, 08:59 AM

So She's bored with fighting but does't want to play a caster or TOB ?
Tricky.

Does she use any combat manouvres ?
You know Tripping, Grappling, ..., etc. ?

How about some skill-monkeying ?
Add in some Rogue/Ranger/Scout ?

Or try some roleplaying ?
The only relevant skill fighters have in this department is INTIMIDATE

LudiDrizzt

2011-10-18, 09:04 AM

Gwendol

2011-10-18, 09:06 AM

Dungeoncrasher fighter ACF? Tactical feats also give some options (Combat brute, shock trooper, etc).
This is a good brief description of the collected tactical feats available: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20050530a

Other than that you can look up specific builds like the Horizon tripper, Jack-B-Quick, and similar to get inspired.

ILM

2011-10-18, 09:07 AM

After all, those pesky casters wouldn't last two minutes with out the fighter keeping the hordes at bay while they cast...
They really would, actually.

Allow her to rework her feats into a battlefield controller? Spiked chain, AoO madness and the like? Mage Slayer just to piss them off? And as Addi mentioned, minor items to allow her to compensate for all the stuff she can't do, like fly and see invisibility and what-not.

Dungeoncrasher could be fun, but in the end it's just more sword-swingin, except not with a sword. Has she considered a sneak-attack fighter? I guess it plays a tiny bit more subtle than 'I charge it with my sword'.

What is it that she wants, anyway? She has nothing to do besides swinging a sword, but doesn't want any sort of magic or maneuvers. That kind of takes out like 90% of combat options, really. Is there any chance she might have a problem with the game going beyond a fighter's lack of versatility?

Axier

2011-10-18, 09:08 AM

Use some Combat Focus (Complete Warrior) feats if she has some wisdom, or build a more technical fighter. Fighting styles, (Complete Warrior and Dungeonscape) add plenty of techniques to a fighter, allowing adaptation to the situation.

Personally, I enjoy playing a spiked-chain fighter, because of the ammount of options available to spiked-chain. Tripping, Disarming, and Reach, combined with large amounts of attack of opportunity based feats (Stand Still, Hold-The-Line, Close-Quarters-Combat, and later on Defensive Sweep), allow you to basically hold anything within 10 feet of your reach right where you want it.

As for something more fun based, crit based fighters are still do-able even if you can't stack Keen and Improved Critical, just find a good crit range weapon and just smack everything, but do it with two-weapon fighting/defence and feats like dodge. Instead of relying on armor, you can rely on feats that you have to alter for your protection.

There is also an alternate class level in Complet Mage, Armored Mage. It replaces first level fighter, and allows more spellcasting multi-class options. It limits your armor to light, but that can be made up with Mage Armor in no-time. In Unearthed Arcana, you can also replace your wizard bonus feats for fighter bonus feats with alternate wiz class, or get a sorcerer that can wear light armor with a higher hit die, in exchange for less spells and

Yora

2011-10-18, 09:25 AM

What does Dungeoncrasher actually do?

Gwendol

2011-10-18, 09:33 AM

You replace your fighter bonus feats at levels 2 and 6 with other powers, namely the ability to do substantial damage to foes that are bullrushed into solid objects, and to smash things a lot better (like traps, doors, walls, etc).

Mutazoia

2011-10-18, 09:40 AM

Yeah...the Sorcerer is kind-of dropping Empowered Maximized Combusts and what while in Crucian form...he doesn't really need protecting.

Well IMHO your problem is less "player X is getting bored" and more of a DM doesn't balance his game properly. One bone I've had with 3.X is the over abundance of extra material, namely in the form of new PC's and abilities. More correctly it's not their availability, more it's the fact that they are balanced to the other optional advanced PC's and abilities that came out in the same source book. These can quickly screw up the balance of a game in the presence of a base character class. If your DM isn't keeping every player in mind when allowing access to this stuff, he's not doing his job very well.

If a Sorcerer can hold his own in a melee slugfest with a horde of enemies of the proper CR for his level then your Sorcerer is over powered. A 4HD character should not last longer in melee than a 10 HD character of the same level. Even when most DM's ignore the casting times on spells, making every spell a standard action to cast. Use casting times, and you'll find your god-sorcerer isn't as uber as he once was. Unless he's some how able to make sever successful concentration checks per round to get off that one round casting time spell.

If your DM is going to allow material out of an expansion book, make sure ALL players are ok with it and are aiming to eventually take a PC and abilities out of that book. If not, your going to have a situation like your in now, where one person is getting board with the game because the lowly 4HD sorcerer is better in hand to hand combat than the trained fighter. At this point your DM might as well change his name to Monty Haul...

IMHO naturally ;)

Gnaeus

2011-10-18, 10:05 AM

Well IMHO your problem is less "player X is getting bored" and more of a DM doesn't balance his game properly. One bone I've had with 3.X is the over abundance of extra material, namely in the form of new PC's and abilities. More correctly it's not their availability, more it's the fact that they are balanced to the other optional advanced PC's and abilities that came out in the same source book. These can quickly screw up the balance of a game in the presence of a base character class. If your DM isn't keeping every player in mind when allowing access to this stuff, he's not doing his job very well.

If your DM is going to allow material out of an expansion book, make sure ALL players are ok with it and are aiming to eventually take a PC and abilities out of that book. If not, your going to have a situation like your in now, where one person is getting board with the game because the lowly 4HD sorcerer is better in hand to hand combat than the trained fighter. At this point your DM might as well change his name to Monty Haul...

IMHO naturally ;)

Sigh. Using only the players handbook, a sorcerer can take Alter Self + Mage Armor and have an AC of 20+ dex + any deflection or enhancement bonuses he may have for most of the adventuring day + Shield if he feels like it at level 4. Casters are more powerful than fighters with the PHB. Splats do not really alter that fundamental equation, but to the degree that they do they give more of an advantage to the muggles. This is especially true for the fighter, who does not have enough core feats to be good at his job, and whose PRC options in core are awful.

tyckspoon

2011-10-18, 10:12 AM

If a Sorcerer can hold his own in a melee slugfest with a horde of enemies of the proper CR for his level then your Sorcerer is over powered. A 4HD character should not last longer in melee than a 10 HD character of the same level. Even when most DM's ignore the casting times on spells, making every spell a standard action to cast. Use casting times, and you'll find your god-sorcerer isn't as uber as he once was. Unless he's some how able to make sever successful concentration checks per round to get off that one round casting time spell.

:smallconfused: The vast majority of spells already are standard action casting time; there's no ignoring going on there. Even a Sorcerer's spontaneous metamagic use only makes his spells into a full-round action, which is the same kind of action used by melee characters to get their iterative attacks. It's not the same thing as a 1 round cast time as used by Sleep and the Summon Monster/Nature's Ally spells.

Basket Burner

2011-10-18, 10:26 AM

Our campaign is enjoyable enough, but the Fighter complains that she has nothing to do in combat besides "swinging a sword." I explained to her, many times, how magic dominates, and in a group with a Sorcerer, a Druid, and a Psion she'd be pressed for options. The Paladin has recently decided to switch to a Crusader, and we offered her the option of Warblade.

For some reason, though, she's adamantly against the idea of it. She's also against magic in any incarnation.

So...is there anything else she can do to make her time more interesting? I'm pretty sure there isn't but...I figure maybe someone knows something.

In all honesty, she is screwed. Now sure if she were a Goliath (which I doubt) she could go Dungeoncrashing and that would be a decent contribution, or revamp all her feats to go for a charge or trip based build, but that player does not want to be helped. If she did, she wouldn't refuse Warblade, and she'd likely refuse other things that help too.

That kind of player is really just looking for attention. In having their character be weak and ineffectual, they get it. Why else would someone play a Fighter in a group of Druid/Psion/Sorcerer, not be happy with their performance, and yet be unwilling to improve? That type of player also attempts to drag the rest of the group down. And not to mention, even if her one trick is effective she is still going to be just spamming that move repeatedly so she is still going to be bored as well. But that means there is nothing you can do, both because of the mindset of that type of player and because Fighters are going to be move spammers no matter what.

The best way to proceed would be to simply keep doing as you are doing. The Fighter will fall hopelessly behind of course, but since the player is unwilling to improve what can you do? Everyone else is fine. Since she is just doing it for attention, by simply proceeding one of the following will happen:

1: She will see her attention getting ploy has failed, and bring her character up to par with the encounters.
2: Her character will die, most likely not be raised, and then she will have to make something else that presumably is not so weak.
3: She will leave, everyone else will continue since they're all fine, and the game will continue without further problems.

Mutazoia

2011-10-18, 10:26 AM

Sigh. Using only the players handbook, a sorcerer can take Alter Self + Mage Armor and have an AC of 20+ dex + any deflection or enhancement bonuses he may have for most of the adventuring day + Shield if he feels like it at level 4. Casters are more powerful than fighters with the PHB. Splats do not really alter that fundamental equation, but to the degree that they do they give more of an advantage to the muggles. This is especially true for the fighter, who does not have enough core feats to be good at his job, and whose PRC options in core are awful.

{{scrubbed}}

Sure Alter self plus mage armor plus shield can give you great AC, but that doesn't help in the HP department. Plus that takes 3 rounds to set up. That's 3 rounds your doing nothing in the fight but self buff. You think a group of orc's can't kill a 4th lvl sorcerer in 3 rounds with out a fighter keeping them at bay? You can whittle through 4HD worth of HP a lot faster than you can 10HD. At lvl 4 your sorcerer has a max of 16 hp, the fighter 40 (not counting stat bonuses) One round of hits from a mob can easily top 16 hp.

Now granted, 3.x definitely did throw a lot of balance mechanics out the window so fighters are still pretty lacking even going by base PHB standards. My point was that if you throw a bunch of stuff out of splat books into the mix with some one who obviously wants to play a straight fighter, your asking for trouble eventually. Either everybody needs to be on board with the extra material or nobody gets it. Simple balance.

SAR101

2011-10-18, 10:30 AM

Sigh. Using only the players handbook, a sorcerer can take Alter Self + Mage Armor and have an AC of 20+ dex + any deflection or enhancement bonuses he may have for most of the adventuring day + Shield if he feels like it at level 4. Casters are more powerful than fighters with the PHB. Splats do not really alter that fundamental equation, but to the degree that they do they give more of an advantage to the muggles. This is especially true for the fighter, who does not have enough core feats to be good at his job, and whose PRC options in core are awful.
When using just the core books, Fighters are a necessity for a low to mid level party. While they don't have the hitting power of the Barbarian or the magic of any of the base magic-users (i.e wizard, sorcerer, cleric, and druid) they can stand toe to toe with majority of the combatants up until the higher levels. With just the PHB feat selection one can make a fighter who is viable until the higher levels.

Back to the main point, have you asked the player if they wanted to switch out there character completely to something else? Perhaps you should suggest to the DM to introduce some antimagic areas, like a section of a dungeon to be under the effects of antimagic that can't be suppressed.

nedz

2011-10-18, 10:35 AM

TurtleKing

2011-10-18, 10:35 AM

Since several are presenting feats and ACFs for the Fighter I'll leave that to them other than mentioning thr Zhentarium Fighter.

Some of said about classes I will go a bit more in depth. We have the Rogue, Scout, Marshal, Barbarian, Knight, Swashbuckler, Monk, and Ninja. Granted I only included some of those for completion's sake.

Edit: Oh one more thing what is race is the fighter? The race could help as in getting into certain PrCs. For example Whenever I play a Raptoran Fighter I always go into Stormtalon. Combine with Dungeoncrasher for some dive bombing.

Username_too_lo

2011-10-18, 10:47 AM

try some roleplaying ?
...
No, No, and god no. I wish on that last one.

[Points Under Hood]

Well, THERE'S your problem.

The old saw goes Fighter: In Combat=Fight, Out of combat=Er..

What this means, of course, is that anyone playing a fighter who wants to keep themselves amused has to come up with enough of a fun concept beyond "I have a sword!" (Thank you 8 bit theatre).

Suggest that you work with the player to 'flesh out' her backstory a bit, give her things to react to, wants, desires.

Chances are that she doesn't roleplay because she's afraid of looking foolish, of not being as good as the others - if you give her leads and things which might actually have plot bonuses; the old hackeneyed cliches will do in a pinch, see OOTS strips for details. I joke, of course, see -> :wink:

Gnaeus

2011-10-18, 10:49 AM

sigh? pretentious much? lol

No, just bored at having to debunk this misconception again.

Sure Alter self plus mage armor plus shield can give you great AC, but that doesn't help in the HP department. Plus that takes 3 rounds to set up. That's 3 rounds your doing nothing in the fight but self buff.

1 round.
Mage armor lasts 4 hours, and is cast at beginning of adventuring day.
Alter self lasts 40 minutes, and is cast upon entering the creepy house/sewer/dungeon. The shield is only cast if whatever he is fighting is immune to color spray.

You think a group of orc's can't kill a 4th lvl sorcerer in 3 rounds with out a fighter keeping them at bay? You can whittle through 4HD worth of HP a lot faster than you can 10HD. At lvl 4 your sorcerer has a max of 16 hp, the fighter 40 (not counting stat bonuses) One round of hits from a mob can easily top 16 hp.

Both the fighter and the sorc are probably packing con bonuses. Buy you are right, at level 4, the fighter does have a hp advantage. (of course, by level 5 the sorc can make this disappear if he wants to, but anyway).

Now granted, 3.x definitely did throw a lot of balance mechanics out the window so fighters are still pretty lacking even going by base PHB standards. My point was that if you throw a bunch of stuff out of splat books into the mix with some one who obviously wants to play a straight fighter, your asking for trouble eventually. Either everybody needs to be on board with the extra material or nobody gets it. Simple balance.

Simple balance. The sorcerer can break the game in half with the PHB. So can the Cleric, Wizard, and Druid. The splats add more options for him to use in breaking the game in half, but do not really expand his top power level much.

For the muggle, you go from being very, very, very difficult to be useful at all in any real way (core), to having a good chance of being meaningful when the guy next to you can rewrite reality at will. A good charge build or battlefield controller is nothing to be sneered at, even in an optimized group, although they will still never equal the tier ones.

Simple balance dictates that if your choices are (Casters win everything and muggles are useless(as in core)), or (Casters win everything and muggles can do something with meaningful effectiveness (Core + splats)), you should take the second.

When using just the core books, Fighters are a necessity for a low to mid level party.

Not in the slightest. A cleric can tank as well as a fighter, and brings a lot more to table. A druid + his pet can tank better than a core fighter.

Thrice Dead Cat

2011-10-18, 10:51 AM

Sure Alter self plus mage armor plus shield can give you great AC, but that doesn't help in the HP department. Plus that takes 3 rounds to set up. That's 3 rounds your doing nothing in the fight but self buff. You think a group of orc's can't kill a 4th lvl sorcerer in 3 rounds with out a fighter keeping them at bay? You can whittle through 4HD worth of HP a lot faster than you can 10HD. At lvl 4 your sorcerer has a max of 16 hp, the fighter 40 (not counting stat bonuses) One round of hits from a mob can easily top 16 hp.

Most solid buff spells last 10 minutes to an hour per level... which means that they'll be up for multiple combats. The fact that magic offers things that straight up say "No, you can't attack me." doesn't really help your case. And considering that there is no difference between having 1 HP and 1000 HP as far as combat effectiveness goes...

Now granted, 3.x definitely did throw a lot of balance mechanics out the window so fighters are still pretty lacking even going by base PHB standards. My point was that if you throw a bunch of stuff out of splat books into the mix with some one who obviously wants to play a straight fighter, your asking for trouble eventually. Either everybody needs to be on board with the extra material or nobody gets it. Simple balance.

The single most imbalanced book in the whole of 3.5 is the PHB. The druid sits across from the monk. Your argument is invalid.

LudiDrizzt

2011-10-18, 11:15 AM

Ok, I have no idea what Muta is talking about. They both have the same HD, where did 4 and 10 come from?

Alter Self into Crucian + Mage Armor + Dex = 24 AC right now, more if he bothered to Shield.

And he has the PHBII feature to let him metamagic as a standard action spell Int mod+3 times per day, I believe it is. So even IF FRA meant an entire round, which it doesn't, he'd be fine. How many times a day do you need to Maximize and Empower an Arcane Thesis Combust, really?

As for the Fighter, she's said before she thinks roleplaying is stupid. She likes killing things in game, and getting items. She'd probably like a tactical approach, but despite being a Chemistry major she's not the brightest bulb in the shed when it comes to application stuff.

If she fleshed out her character, coming up with a theme would be a lot easier. As it stands, she's a Human Fighter with good Str, Con, above average Int and Dex, and poor Wis and Cha.

Kensai, maybe?

Anarchy_Kanya

2011-10-18, 11:24 AM

As for the Fighter, she's said before she thinks roleplaying is stupid.
Then why is she even playing a roleplaying game? :smallconfused:

Keld Denar

2011-10-18, 11:24 AM

At lvl 4 your sorcerer has a max of 16 hp, the fighter 40 (not counting stat bonuses) One round of hits from a mob can easily top 16 hp.

You are forgetting 2 things. First, Con bonuses, and second, average HP.

Anyone who tells you they rolled 3 10s for HP on a 4th level toon is probably lying. Most games I've played in or ran use some variant of average HP. You take 1/2 the die, or 1/2 the die +1. For a sorcerer, that means he has 2 HP or 3 HP. For a fighter, that means he has 5 HP or 6 HP. Thats a difference of 3 HP. Now compare the numbers with Con scores included.

A Sorc4 has 4+3+3+3=13 HP before Con
A Ftr4 has 10+6+6+6=28 HP before Con

Thats a difference of almost 2.2x

With a 12 Con

The Sorc has 13+4=17 HP
The Ftr has 28+4=32 HP

That is a difference of about 1.8x

With a 14 Con

The Sorc has 17+4=21 HP
The Ftr has 32+4=36 HP

That is a difference of about 1.7x

With an 18 Con

The Sorc has 21+8=29 HP
The Ftr has 36+8=44 HP

That is a difference of 1.5x

As you can see, as Con goes up, while the delta of their HP remains the same, the relative difference goes down.

And that's assuming that they are the same difficulty to hit. If the Sorc decides to tank it out like the one above with Mage Armor + Shield + Alter Self, he could have an AC well over 20. If the same 4th level fighter sank his entire wealth into his AC, he might be able to match that, but his offense would suffer. So if he fighter gets hit one more time, the 15 HP difference goes away REALLY quick.

Both COULD reach the same pinnacle of power, but the fighter is gonna take a LOT more effort to get there. Thats the very definition of the tier system.

Basket Burner

2011-10-18, 12:51 PM

Did anyone ever say this was at level 4? Because I'm not seeing anything to that effect. It would generally be safe to assume that if he is throwing out Empowered, Maximized second level spells that the game is higher than level 4.

When using just the core books, Fighters are a necessity for a low to mid level party. While they don't have the hitting power of the Barbarian or the magic of any of the base magic-users (i.e wizard, sorcerer, cleric, and druid) they can stand toe to toe with majority of the combatants up until the higher levels. With just the PHB feat selection one can make a fighter who is viable until the higher levels.

A core only Fighter is going to be smacked silly by just about anything level 7 or higher.

Back to the main point, have you asked the player if they wanted to switch out there character completely to something else? Perhaps you should suggest to the DM to introduce some antimagic areas, like a section of a dungeon to be under the effects of antimagic that can't be suppressed.

That would not help anything, even if such a thing were possible. Which it is not.

But whatever the level, and regardless of if it is core only or anything goes or somewhere in between the Sorcerer is going to have all manner of defenses between him and his only slightly lower HP total, whereas the Fighter doesn't have anything, as his AC will be hit 95% of the time by anything you fight at a level in which you could throw out Empowered Maximized Combusts. Same for Psions, and Clerics, and Druids. So even if there were such a thing as tanking, it is certainly not needed.

I have a Sorcerer build that at level 8 has an AC near 40 and saves near 20 across the board, for example. By the sounds of it, his Sorcerer is not trying nearly so hard as this.

Tvtyrant

2011-10-18, 12:53 PM

What does Dungeoncrasher actually do?

It lets you smash people into things and do 2 to 3 times your strength mod in damage. Its pretty cool, since it works with a charging bullrush and can be combined with Pounce (with trips!).

Mutazoia

2011-10-18, 12:56 PM

You are forgetting 2 things. First, Con bonuses, and second, average HP.

Anyone who tells you they rolled 3 10s for HP on a 4th level toon is probably lying. Most games I've played in or ran use some variant of average HP. You take 1/2 the die, or 1/2 the die +1. For a sorcerer, that means he has 2 HP or 3 HP. For a fighter, that means he has 5 HP or 6 HP. Thats a difference of 3 HP. Now compare the numbers with Con scores included.

A Sorc4 has 4+3+3+3=13 HP before Con
A Ftr4 has 10+6+6+6=28 HP before Con

Thats a difference of almost 2.2x

With a 12 Con

The Sorc has 13+4=17 HP
The Ftr has 28+4=32 HP

That is a difference of about 1.8x

With a 14 Con

The Sorc has 17+4=21 HP
The Ftr has 32+4=36 HP

That is a difference of about 1.7x

With an 18 Con

The Sorc has 21+8=29 HP
The Ftr has 36+8=44 HP

That is a difference of 1.5x

As you can see, as Con goes up, while the delta of their HP remains the same, the relative difference goes down.

And that's assuming that they are the same difficulty to hit. If the Sorc decides to tank it out like the one above with Mage Armor + Shield + Alter Self, he could have an AC well over 20. If the same 4th level fighter sank his entire wealth into his AC, he might be able to match that, but his offense would suffer. So if he fighter gets hit one more time, the 15 HP difference goes away REALLY quick.

Both COULD reach the same pinnacle of power, but the fighter is gonna take a LOT more effort to get there. Thats the very definition of the tier system.

First I did say the hp's I listed were with out con bonus. Second I intentionally gave both parties max HP. At his best a 4th lvl Sorcerer will have 16 hp (with out con bonuses) with a 14 con for 4 levels that puts him at 24 hp. A Fighter with the same luck in getting max HP with con will have 48..if he has a 14 con, still twice the Sorcerer...more than likely though his con will be higher...say 16 for sake of argument, so he has 52 hp. The fighters ability to take a hit still far outstrips the sorcerer.

Show me a Sorcerer with 18 con and I'll show you some one who fudged a few dice rolls. If a Sorcerer has 18 in anything it's going to be CHR. A 14 con would be about average for a Sorcerer.

Fighters can (and usually do) sink most of their wealth into their armor, and that doesn't hinder their offensive abilities one whit. Wealth, especially at low to mid levels, does not equate into combat prowess. I fail to see the logic behind that argument. Unless your using a shotgun and packing the shells with coins... ("Best dollar eighty I ever spent")

Keeping your buffs up all day? Not likely..sure they may last 10 minutes per level.but last time I checked there's more than 40 minutes in a day, and unless you are going straight from one battle to the next your going to spend more than 40 minutes between fights. That's barely more than a half hour. Mage Armor lasts an hour per level, so you have 4 hours out of the day you are using that buff, but your other wonder buffs will be gone in the time its going to take you to read and respond to this post. How many combats are you thinking you can squeeze into 40 minutes? Are you telling me your going to burn all of your spells per day just to keep your buff's up?

But this is digressing from the original post. My point still is that the DM needs to keep party balance in mind when allowing stuff from the splat books. Too often players will want something out of a splat and the DM will simply say "ok" with out taking all other factors into account.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-10-18, 01:10 PM

As for the Fighter, she's said before she thinks roleplaying is stupid. She likes killing things in game, and getting items. She'd probably like a tactical approach, but despite being a Chemistry major she's not the brightest bulb in the shed when it comes to application stuff.

Buy a video game and put it in whatever house you play at. One where she can fight on different stages with different characters over and over. I recommend one of the Super Smash Bros games. When she comes over, she can play the video game where she can beat up people while the rest of you play D&D.

Because since she doesn't want anything where she has to think (magic, maneuvers) and doesn't want anything beyond "NPC tells you to go there and kill those monsters for this reward" it sounds like she's just playing because she's bored.

Basket Burner

2011-10-18, 01:19 PM

First I did say the hp's I listed were with out con bonus. Second I intentionally gave both parties max HP. At his best a 4th lvl Sorcerer will have 16 hp (with out con bonuses) with a 14 con for 4 levels that puts him at 24 hp. A Fighter with the same luck in getting max HP with con will have 48..if he has a 14 con, still twice the Sorcerer...more than likely though his con will be higher...say 16 for sake of argument, so he has 52 hp. The fighters ability to take a hit still far outstrips the sorcerer.

1: Max HP makes higher HD more valuable, yes. Most games don't use it though, so in most games the difference is far less.
2: Odds a 4th level Sorcerer has max HP without houserules and using rolled stats: 1:64. Chance the Fighter does, same conditions: 1:1,000.
3: Fighters need far more stats than Sorcerers. If anything it would be the Sorcerer starting with 16, while the Fighter has 14.

Show me a Sorcerer with 18 con and I'll show you some one who fudged a few dice rolls. If a Sorcerer has 18 in anything it's going to be CHR. A 14 con would be about average for a Sorcerer.

And stats other than Con and Cha are at best tertiary.

Fighters can (and usually do) sink most of their wealth into their armor, and that doesn't hinder their offensive abilities one whit. Wealth, especially at low to mid levels, does not equate into combat prowess. I fail to see the logic behind that argument. Unless your using a shotgun and packing the shells with coins... ("Best dollar eighty I ever spent")

It is money not spent on offense. At level 4, it doesn't make much of a difference, but then neither does the defense.

Keeping your buffs up all day? Not likely..sure they may last 10 minutes per level.but last time I checked there's more than 40 minutes in a day, and unless you are going straight from one battle to the next your going to spend more than 40 minutes between fights. That's barely more than a half hour. Mage Armor lasts an hour per level, so you have 4 hours out of the day you are using that buff, but your other wonder buffs will be gone in the time its going to take you to read and respond to this post. How many combats are you thinking you can squeeze into 40 minutes? Are you telling me your going to burn all of your spells per day just to keep your buff's up?

40 minutes is enough time to sweep the dungeon that you are currently in front of though, which is what he said. 4 hours with 1 or perhaps 2 castings will cover the day. In fact traveling more than 8 hours imposes penalties, so that means that the day is 8 hours long for this purpose. Now given that it is a dungeon, and you have 40 minutes, the answer to the question of "how many combats can you squeeze into that" is "at least four, if not all of them".

But this is digressing from the original post. My point still is that the DM needs to keep party balance in mind when allowing stuff from the splat books. Too often players will want something out of a splat and the DM will simply say "ok" with out taking all other factors into account.

The things mentioned that the Sorcerer is using:

Crucian form: +8 NA if I recall correctly. The CORE troglodyte does the same thing.
Combust: A blasting spell, and a weak one at that.

Sorcerer is holding back.

The Sorcerer being fine, and the Fighter being terrible has nothing to do with splatbooks. If a book is to be blamed for it, it would be the Player's Handbook.

Mockingbird

2011-10-18, 01:22 PM

I would suggest Warshaper, but you need to be a shapeshifter to qualify.

Mutazoia

2011-10-18, 01:29 PM

40 minutes is enough time to sweep the dungeon that you are currently in front of though, which is what he said. 4 hours with 1 or perhaps 2 castings will cover the day. In fact traveling more than 8 hours imposes penalties, so that means that the day is 8 hours long for this purpose. Now given that it is a dungeon, and you have 40 minutes, the answer to the question of "how many combats can you squeeze into that" is "at least four, if not all of them".
.

You do realize that its not 40 minutes REAL TIME but 40 minutes GAME TIME. As in 1 round = Roughly 1 minute.

It takes more than 10 minutes to loot the corpses and heal up after a fight. Honestly if it was 1 minute real time per level then at higher levels a caster would only have to cast a spell once in his life time.

Yes other stats are not as important as CON and CHR...but if you want to add that DEX bonus to your AC, and you want to have the slightest chance to pass a WILL save, and want to be able to carry more than the clothes on your back... or want more than 2 skill points per level...I think you get the point.

And as I said the 3.X rule set does throw balance out the window and fighters do get a raw deal even with the basic PHB rules. But saying "well that's broken but oh well I guess I'll just ignore it." and saying "hey..as a DM I should make an effort here to ensure that ALL my players enjoy the game." are two different animals. One has the DM doing a good job at his role, the other doesn't... care to guess which is which?

Waker

2011-10-18, 01:36 PM

You do realize that its not 40 minutes REAL TIME but 40 minutes GAME TIME. As in 1 round = Roughly 1 minute

One round in combat is equal to 6 seconds. Thus a 40 minute duration buff would equate to 400 rounds of combat. Of course it wouldn't be likely that you could string together such an insanely long battle.

Mutazoia

2011-10-18, 01:40 PM

One round in combat is equal to 6 seconds. Thus a 40 minute duration buff would equate to 400 rounds of combat. Of course it wouldn't be likely that you could string together such an insanely long battle.

That's actually the 4e time keeping standard. Usually one round was pretty close to a minute a turn was equal to about 6 seconds.

Still, either way, your not going to make one 40 minute buff last an entire dungeon. As I said it takes about half that to loot corpses and heal up.

Doing the math:

At 4th level you get 6 first level and 3 second level spells. If you adventure for 12 hours a day, you will be casting Mage Armor 3 times a day and alter self and shield roughly twice an hour or 24 times a day...Impossible. At some point your either going to be buffing in combat, in which case your going to need the meat shield to protect you for at least a couple of rounds, or your going to run out of spells fast.

Granted things get better the higher level you get.

Keld Denar

2011-10-18, 01:45 PM

Wait...what?

You time your spells in real life?

I've been in combats before that take a total of about 6-7 rounds to resolve, but took 2-3 hours to resolve. Game time != Real time. If you play this way, thats fine. Its your house rule. But I've never actually EVER heard of someone playing this way before you. Its interesting, but...not very practical. Time is abstract. Sometimes things in the game take hours to resolve, and sometimes you simply say "ahem! later that day"

Also, Con is a sorcerer's secondary stat. Cha > Con > Dex > all else. This is simple. Fighters are much more attribute dependant. They need Str for attacking, Dex if they are an AoO build, Int if they want Combat Reflexes (for Imp Trip), Wisdom for Combat Focus, and Cha for Optimized Fear Stacking (15+ for Imperious Command). When you compare like for like point-buy, the sorc is gonna have more points available to asign to his primary stats than the fighter, depending on how he builds. In equal amount PBs, I'd wager that most sorcerers will have a higher starting Con than most fighters. I won't touch die-rolled stats, as rolling for stats is already inherantly imbalanced unless all players use the same set of die rolls.

As far as core vs splat books and balance...Core is the most broken set in the whole game. If you play a game with just ToB and XPH and MoI, you are WAY more balanced than just the PHB. As others have put it "anyone who publishes the monk on the opposite page from the druid is either crazy, or failed to playtest anything".

Gnaeus

2011-10-18, 01:47 PM

100% agree with basket burner, but I will add...

It is money not spent on offense. At level 4, it doesn't make much of a difference, but then neither does the defense.

Sorc with mage armor + crucian form= ac 22 +dex.
Mr. Fighter is using Full Plate +1, Shield +1 to get there. Thats about 2000 (Enhancement bonus x2) + 300 (Masterwork cost x2) + 1507 (Full plate + large shield = 3807 gp

Mr. Sorcerer, for about the same amount, can go buy a ring of protection +1 and an amulet of natural armor +1, giving him a better AC than the fighter.

Or, for less than 700 more, he can buy a fully charged wand of (Invisibility or Mirror Image or Blur) cranking up his defense to a level far beyond the fighter for several levels to come. Those are actually better options than anything the fighter has defensively, because they are more generically useful. (all 3 of those defensive spells will defend against grapples and other touch attacks for example. Invisibility has non combat utility in sneaking, and a wand of blur can protect not just himself, but also other party members in need). Or he can buy a fully charged wand of False Life to slash the fighters hp advantage while allowing the sorc to effectively heal himself 1d10+3 hp as a standard action.

This is core, of course. Magic Item Compendium gives lots more options, to the fighter or the sorcerer.

Mutazoia

2011-10-18, 01:49 PM

Wait...what?

You time your spells in real life?

No I time them by game time i.e. rounds...some one else apparently times them in real life times...so a 40 minute buff for them will last half a dungeon....

Gnaeus

2011-10-18, 01:53 PM

Grendus

2011-10-18, 01:58 PM

If the fighter doesn't want to go ToB, how about a Barbarian? Lion and Wolf Totems (Pounce and Improved Trip) give her some real utility combined with rage. Now go Goliath, grab EWP (Spiked Chain) and the ACF that increases your size when you rage. Now you're a massive stone woman swinging a chain with a HUMONGOUS reach and an ungodly strength. No creature short of huge will be able to make the opposed trip check, and every time they fail you get a free attack with your hefty strength.

Of course, if you really want to be effective, take a level of PsyWar. Now you can expand then rage to be a HUGE stone woman swinging a chain the size of a large tree with a ridiculous strength. It does require a positive wisdom modifier, but once that's done grab a Djore of Expansion and you're golden. Of course, she'll reject the pseudo-spellcasting, but that's what I'd do.

LudiDrizzt

2011-10-18, 01:58 PM

I'm kind of convinced Muta has never played D&D before. They're 8th level now and the Sorcerer spends most actions bluffing opponents to get the Fighter CA and draw fire away from the "tanks" ironically.

Mutazoia

2011-10-18, 01:59 PM

100% agree with basket burner, but I will add...

Sorc with mage armor + crucian form= ac 22 +dex.
Mr. Fighter is using Full Plate +1, Shield +1 to get there. Thats about 2000 (Enhancement bonus x2) + 300 (Masterwork cost x2) + 1507 (Full plate + large shield = 3807 gp

Mr. Sorcerer, for about the same amount, can go buy a ring of protection +1 and an amulet of natural armor +1, giving him a better AC than the fighter.

Or, for less than 700 more, he can buy a fully charged wand of (Invisibility or Mirror Image or Blur) cranking up his defense to a level far beyond the fighter for several levels to come. Those are actually better options than anything the fighter has defensively, because they are more generically useful. (all 3 of those defensive spells will defend against grapples and other touch attacks for example. Invisibility has non combat utility in sneaking, and a wand of blur can protect not just himself, but also other party members in need). Or he can buy a fully charged wand of False Life to slash the fighters hp advantage while allowing the sorc to effectively heal himself 1d10+3 hp as a standard action.

This is core, of course. Magic Item Compendium gives lots more options, to the fighter or the sorcerer.

Ok...lets take your last point first. Sure..heal your self 1d10+3 as a standard action...your not attacking or doing any damage so your effectively taking your self out of the fight for that round.

Last time I checked like bonuses didn't stack so a natural AC bonus from the alter self and an natural AC bonus from an item wouldn't work and would be a waste of money.

Eh...tired of this now. My point remains that the DM needs to watch party balance and ensure that nobody gets left behind.

Mutazoia

2011-10-18, 02:03 PM

A cure spell takes 6 seconds. If it takes you 10 minutes after a fight to loot bodies and heal, your team is terribly inefficient. 40 minutes should easily be enough time to clear 8 rooms of combat, by which time everyone in the party has already run out of expendibles (spells, hp, etc).

ok..one more then I'm off to a new thread

it takes an average of 3.5 minutes to throughly loot a body (try searching dead insurgents for intel some time). if you only loot 3 bodies your 10 minutes are up easy. A cure spells are time neg. but actually physically resting after the exertion takes time...unless you just say that people can exert themselves all day non stop. And clearing 8 rooms of combat in little more than a half hour? Fine...your game, your altered time flow...what ever makes you happy.

Mutazoia

2011-10-18, 02:04 PM

Teron

2011-10-18, 02:04 PM

That's actually the 4e time keeping standard. Usually one round was pretty close to a minute a turn was equal to about 6 seconds.
You think a duel consists of two people taking six seconds' worth of actions each over the course of a minute?

A round is six seconds. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm)

Siosilvar

2011-10-18, 02:05 PM

That's actually the 4e time keeping standard. Usually one round was pretty close to a minute a turn was equal to about 6 seconds.

You're mixing up 3.5 with AD&D. OD&D (well, B/X and BECMI, at least) had 10 second rounds most of the time, 1e and 2e had 1-minute rounds (with turns equal to 6 minutes IIRC), 3e and on have 6 second rounds.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-10-18, 02:06 PM

That's actually the 4e time keeping standard. Usually one round was pretty close to a minute a turn was equal to about 6 seconds.

Epic Facepalm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm)

Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world. A round presents an opportunity for each character involved in a combat situation to take an action.

Thrice Dead Cat

2011-10-18, 02:06 PM

That's actually the 4e time keeping standard. Usually one round was pretty close to a minute a turn was equal to about 6 seconds.

You are flat out wrong. Check your sources next time. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm)

Fax Celestis

2011-10-18, 02:06 PM

How opposed to homebrew are you? Honestly if she want's to be a Fighter let her, and make some Fighter only feats to make things more interesting.

...or swap her to a homebrew class like my Dreadnaught (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70), Fencer (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=115), or Warlord (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=116) classes: all are very non-magical but do a bit more than "I full-attack again".

Waker

2011-10-18, 02:22 PM

That's actually the 4e time keeping standard. Usually one round was pretty close to a minute a turn was equal to about 6 seconds.

Still, either way, your not going to make one 40 minute buff last an entire dungeon. As I said it takes about half that to loot corpses and heal up.

Doing the math:

At 4th level you get 6 first level and 3 second level spells. If you adventure for 12 hours a day, you will be casting Mage Armor 3 times a day and alter self and shield roughly twice an hour or 24 times a day...Impossible. At some point your either going to be buffing in combat, in which case your going to need the meat shield to protect you for at least a couple of rounds, or your going to run out of spells fast.

Granted things get better the higher level you get.

6 seconds is the length of a round in 3.5, you can check the SRD for confirmation.
Searching a single corpse requires a full round action, thus 6 seconds. Unless one person is doing all the searching, it doesn't take more than a handful of rounds to loot.
A DM is recommended to have the party face 4 encounters on average in a day which can mean combat or traps. The most difficult traps require an average of 5 rounds to deal with (1 round Searching + 2d4 rounds Disabling (avg 4)). Combat rarely goes beyond 10 rounds and I'm being generous with that length of time. So the average workday for a party is likely to last for at most 4 minutes of total combat.
The majority of curative magic is a standard action, assuming the party has one person able to heal the average party of five (and assuming everyone took damage) we'll say the party takes 10 rounds total to heal (2 spells spent on each member) for a total of 1 minute per combat, for a total of 4 minutes in the day. Once again, I'm being generous with the time spent, as it's likely some people would have taken no damage. Not to mention it's likely that there would be another player capable of healing.
In D&D one can cover 1 mile in 17 and a half minute with a land speed of 30ft and in 26 and a half minutes with 20ft (assuming a move action is spent every round).
So with two castings of Alter Self (1hr 20 min) and one casting of Mage Armor (4hrs) the party could conceivably cover a distance of up to 3 miles or 2 miles with 4 encounters including the time spent on searching, healing and the like. Dungeons don't tend to be all that enormous (barring examples like the World's Largest Dungeon) so its unlikely that the party will be pillaging for more than a few hours.

As to the OPs problem though, if the player doesn't want to RP in a roleplaying game nor fix her character so that it can do something, I would suggest she play Diablo.

Keegan__D

2011-10-18, 02:29 PM

Hates roleplaying, can't do tactics, and doesn't want to play something interesting. Why is she playing D&D?
Hand her a bat and point her in the direction of a mob boss. She'll have plenty of beating people and probably fun while she's doing it.

Basket Burner

2011-10-18, 02:34 PM

You do realize that its not 40 minutes REAL TIME but 40 minutes GAME TIME. As in 1 round = Roughly 1 minute.

It takes more than 10 minutes to loot the corpses and heal up after a fight. Honestly if it was 1 minute real time per level then at higher levels a caster would only have to cast a spell once in his life time.

Healing up after a fight = maybe 1 minute, and that can happen while looting is taking place, which also takes maybe a minute to loot any and all non armor items. If it is taking you over 10 minutes to do so then that sounds like a PBGTAC.

Yes other stats are not as important as CON and CHR...but if you want to add that DEX bonus to your AC, and you want to have the slightest chance to pass a WILL save, and want to be able to carry more than the clothes on your back... or want more than 2 skill points per level...I think you get the point.

AC quickly reaches the 95% to be hit point. It takes a bit longer for Sorcerers than the glass cannon classes like the Fighter, but either way the route to solid defense lies elsewhere. Sorcerers, being casters have no trouble with Will saves. The one I mentioned before has an 8 Wis and a Will save near 20. Carrying capacity is solved by pack animals or extradimensional storage. Skills are essentially pointless, particularly for a caster.

And as I said the 3.X rule set does throw balance out the window and fighters do get a raw deal even with the basic PHB rules. But saying "well that's broken but oh well I guess I'll just ignore it." and saying "hey..as a DM I should make an effort here to ensure that ALL my players enjoy the game." are two different animals. One has the DM doing a good job at his role, the other doesn't... care to guess which is which?

So there's this guy. And his town is flooding. He didn't evacuate, so he's stuck at home. A police car comes by, and the officer offers to save him. He insists that he is fine and that God will provide for him. The water continues to rise, and he gets on the roof of his house. A rowboat comes by, and the guy in it offers to save him. He insists that he is fine and that God will provide for him. The water continues to rise, and is up to the bottom of the roof. A helicopter comes by, and the copilot offers to save him. He insists that he is fine and that God will provide for him.

...After he drowns, he angrily demands to know why God did not provide for him.

"I sent a car, a boat, and a chopper. What more do you want?"

In this story, the Fighter player is the stubborn fellow, the attempts to save him are things that have already been done only to be refused, and the next step...

100% agree with basket burner, but I will add...

Sorc with mage armor + crucian form= ac 22 +dex.
Mr. Fighter is using Full Plate +1, Shield +1 to get there. Thats about 2000 (Enhancement bonus x2) + 300 (Masterwork cost x2) + 1507 (Full plate + large shield = 3807 gp

Ah, so it is +8. Well if the Fighter is holding a shield, he has essentially nullified his offensive potential. So seems it is possible after all. Though you added an extra 7 to the cost.

Mr. Sorcerer, for about the same amount, can go buy a ring of protection +1 and an amulet of natural armor +1, giving him a better AC than the fighter.

Or just cast Mirror Image. :D

Keld Denar

2011-10-18, 03:07 PM

Last time I checked like bonuses didn't stack so a natural AC bonus from the alter self and an natural AC bonus from an item wouldn't work and would be a waste of money.

An Amulet of Natural Armor gives an enchancement bonus to natural armor, which DOES stack with existing natural armor in the same way that the +1 enhancement bonus on armor stacks with the actual armor bonus itself. A person who doesn't have natural armor is considered to have a natural armor bonus of +0.

My point remains that the DM needs to watch party balance and ensure that nobody gets left behind.

In this situation, one player is trying to lower the bar by not wanting to play something at the competance level the others are at, and then complaining about it. Its ok to want to play at lower optimization levels. Its not ok to pressure everyone else to play at those levels if they don't want to, and complain about it when you don't get your way. It has nothing to do with the DM. The DM fully supports helping the player step up by inviting her to play a Warblade instead of a Fighter, because it fits the rest of the group better. She's the one who doesn't want to.

My suggestion to the OP is that it actually doesn't want to play with you guys. She's not having fun, but she doesn't want to take the steps to have fun. Shes not a roleplayer, and shes not much into character development and she doesn't want to take the solutions presented. Its like a person who says they want to watch football with their buddies, but complains that they don't know the rules or want to learn the rules. Eventually, you stop inviting that person over to watch the game with you and your buddies. I'd sit down and talk to her and figure out WHY she plays. If she plays because she genuinely likes playing D&D, then...I dunno what to tell you. If she really doesn't like D&D, and only tolerates it to "hang out with the bros", then talk to her about having some other event where she can take part, like a boardgame night or dinner party, and leave her out of the D&D.

Otherwise, there's that one saying about horses and water...

Gnaeus

2011-10-18, 05:22 PM

ok..one more then I'm off to a new thread

it takes an average of 3.5 minutes to throughly loot a body (try searching dead insurgents for intel some time). if you only loot 3 bodies your 10 minutes are up easy. A cure spells are time neg. but actually physically resting after the exertion takes time...unless you just say that people can exert themselves all day non stop. And clearing 8 rooms of combat in little more than a half hour? Fine...your game, your altered time flow...what ever makes you happy.

Searching a body takes six seconds. I know, because the rules tell me so.

Action

It takes a full-round action to search a 5-foot-by-5-foot area or a volume of goods 5 feet on a side.

(I could take 20 in 2 minutes)

Also, one could easily have multiple party members searching. You don't have to do it one at a time. The cleric can be healing while everyone else searches. So....
1 minute combat, + 3.5 minute search= 4.5 minutes per encounter, using your non rules based timing. Give a minute to move to next door and search it (and remember, You don't have to be fully buffed for searching the bodies in the last room) and yep, thats about 8 encounters in 40 minutes.

A cure spells are time neg. but actually physically resting after the exertion takes time...unless you just say that people can exert themselves all day non stop. And clearing 8 rooms of combat in little more than a half hour? Fine...your game, your altered time flow...what ever makes you happy.

8 combats, none lasting more than 1 minute, some probably under 30 seconds, with a few minutes between each one? I'm pretty sure I could have done that when I was 20 and in shape. I mean, I could spar or practice fencing for more than a couple of minutes at a time, without a break in the middle, and certainly it was tiring, but I was nowhere near a trained adventurer with a 14 con, either.

tyckspoon

2011-10-18, 05:29 PM

1 minute combat, + 3.5 minute search= 4.5 minutes per encounter, using your non rules based timing. Give a minute to move to next door and search it (and remember, You don't have to be fully buffed for searching the bodies in the last room) and yep, thats about 8 encounters in 40 minutes.

Or you can recognize that those shorter-term buffs make you much, much more powerful, and so you should get as many fights out of the way as you can while they're up.. so you skip looting the bodies until later. Buffs run out, you bar/spike the nearest door to create a fortified bottleneck and then go back and see if there's anything interesting on your victims. Nothing says you have to loot the poorly-locked chest immediately upon killing the orc in the ten-by-ten room.

Arbane

2011-10-18, 06:04 PM

You are forgetting 2 things. First, Con bonuses, and second, average HP.

Anyone who tells you they rolled 3 10s for HP on a 4th level toon is probably lying.

*Raises hand* I did. Right in front of the whole group, so they could laugh in astonishment at my pathetic luck.

3d12, actually, as it was a Barbarian. We were allowed to reroll on a 1, so of course I rolled 2s. :smallfurious: Thank Gygax for the con bonus, or I'd have had the wimpiest Barbarian ever...

Safety Sword

2011-10-18, 06:16 PM

Otherwise, there's that one saying about horses and water...

I've never tried to water board a horse before... :smalleek:

What? :smallredface:

Some people don't want to be helped. Honestly, pushing them harder just makes them resist your help more. :smallfrown:

Arundel

2011-10-18, 06:16 PM

Wow, a sorcerer versus fighter debate. Really? In this day and age really?

While I always enjoy it when people argue the realism of actions taken in a game with talking dragons, unicorns, and damn owlbears. Step back and see what you're saying. Of course things in the game (note the word game) aren't realistic, that is why we play Dungeons and Dragons and not Real Life. Also, someone please point out where the rules on searching dead insurgents are. Seriously, please do. I can't find it in my DMG or PHB.

As for the comparison of sorcerer to fighter, if you are hellbent on ignoring the above paragraph, it is similar to comparing Bruce Lee to Rocky. I would be willing to bet if you hit both of them with a sledgehammer while they were sleeping Rocky would end up better off. Does that actually matter for their combat abilities?

Not in the slightest.

Safety Sword

2011-10-18, 06:20 PM

As for the comparison of sorcerer to fighter, if you are hellbent on ignoring the above paragraph, it is similar to comparing Bruce Lee to Rocky. I would be willing to bet if you hit both of them with a sledgehammer while they were sleeping Rocky would end up better off. Does that actually matter for their combat abilities?

Not in the slightest.

To be fair, Rocky was very good at having a low guard and getting punched in the face really hard until the other guy got too tired to hit him any more. It's not that way I'd fight, but the script meant he was going to win anyway.... :smallfurious:

Did I just spoil the magic? I damned well hope so. :smallamused:

Big Fau

2011-10-18, 06:38 PM

A cure spell takes 6 seconds. If it takes you 10 minutes after a fight to loot bodies and heal, your team is terribly inefficient. 40 minutes should easily be enough time to clear 8 rooms of combat, by which time everyone in the party has already run out of expendibles (spells, hp, etc).

And, to top it all off, you can choose to save the looting until after you've cleared those 8 encounters, thus conserving some more time.

@Mutazoia: You are arguing with expert optimizers. We have mathematical proof that the Sorcerer is capable of soloing entire campaigns (after around 7th level) if the DM doesn't go out of his way to screw the Sorcerer over. With Core-Only, if need be.

The same applies for Clerics, Druids, and Wizards.

gomipile

2011-10-18, 07:06 PM

Anarchy_Kanya

2011-10-18, 07:14 PM

I thought that "When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities."

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#whirlwindAttack
Maybe he meant Whirlwind Attack or Great Cleave? Because they both can be good, in the right circumstances.

Coidzor

2011-10-18, 07:26 PM

It really does sound like you need to figure out why she's playing, and if there's anything that can be done to work with her on getting her more engaged in the game or parting ways as amicably as possible.

hex0

2011-10-18, 07:29 PM

Let her play a gestalt Fighter/Monk instead. Full BAB flurry is decent.

The Dark Fiddler

2011-10-18, 07:49 PM

Metahuman1

2011-10-18, 07:54 PM

Get her to do feat and a bit of level retraining. Maybe skill retraining as needed. I'd also take a hard look at adding low impact flaws.

Now, get her to take a level of Spirit Lion totem Barbarian and two levels of feat rogue for some useful skill ranks. Take a couple of hits of the extra rage feat. From there, your gonna do two things. Get her set up with a Mount that progresses at level with her, perhaps a cohort that someone else roleplays for her. Make it an interesting creature that talks to her regularly. Makes her have in character conversation and get's her doing mounted combat, which can be cool.

From there, get her to take improved unarmed strike and maybe improved grapple. (IF she will take dungeoncrasher, consider Improved/Rampaging Bulls rush, Knockback and the throw enemy/ally feats. Maybe combat reflexes and robilars Gambit if she's got the feats to spare and the dex to make it worth while.).

Now get her into Kensai and fist of the Forest. From there, between lance and fist she should have a few options if you can squeeze it all in.

Something else. Consider a rebirth quest, as suggested in PHBII, and add a strong base race/template onto the character.