Thought Experiment: Spells as Written

[NeoSeraphi]

So I've been thinking a lot about casters lately, and I wonder, what would change at the table if your DM just straight up banned metamagic feats? All metamagic feats, and sudden metamagic feats?

No Maximize, no Reach, no Empower, no Extend, no Sculpt, no Persist, no Ocular, no Born of Three Thunders, no Searing Spell, no Energy Substitution, no Fell Drain, none of them. All classes and feats that deal with metamagic reducers are banned (Incantatrix, Practical Metamagic, etc) except Arcane Thesis, which grants a +2 CL with one spell, and nothing else, but can be taken at level 6 instead of level 9.

Edit: Wizard bonus feats are reserve feats, item creation feats, and Spell Focus only.

How do you think spellcasters would be affected if they had to play with their spells as written?

[ILM]

Blasting is even less of an option. Action economy might be improved slightly by the removal of Quicken spell, but probably not all that much. Persistent Spell silliness disappears. LCB doesn't work anymore (if it ever did). Casters can still order reality around.

In short, it gets a resounding 'meh' from me. It's not actually bad, I could even go with it, it just changes so little in the grand scheme of things that I wonder why bother.

[Kaje]

Well, you killed the gish. A sorcadin's saves may be great, but I dunno how long they'll last in melee without those extended/persisted buffs. The only effective arcane gishes left are channelers like the duskblade and spellsword.

Come to think of it, there's a world of difference between "spells as written" and "ban all metamagic". There are base and prestige classes whose entire shtick is changing the way spells work (duskblade, spellwarp sniper, enlightened fist) without using metamagic.

[Steward]

Aren't there other ways to 'break' spells without metamagic feats? Sure, you can't Quicken or Maximize any more, but you can still (hypothetically) "chain-gate Solars"; you can still Wildshape into the biggest, baddest creature you can think of and hold onto your spellcasting, etc. Getting rid of metamagic would just get rid of some of the forms of 'breaking the game' but it won't get rid of all of them. Spellcasters would be just slightly less versatile (well, Wizards, mostly -- Clerics don't really need Divine Metamagic and Druids don't need Metamagic at all to be versatile) but they'd still kick the stuffing out of every other class in the game.

[NeoSeraphi]

In short, it gets a resounding 'meh' from me. It's not actually bad, I could even go with it, it just changes so little in the grand scheme of things that I wonder why bother.

I see. Thank you for your opinions. You've given me some stuff to think about.


Getting rid of metamagic would just get rid of some of the forms of 'breaking the game' but it won't get rid of all of them.

I wasn't really thinking about an across-the-board nerf, per se, just thinking about how often Metamagic is used and suggested and talked about on the boards, and how powerful it is compared to normal feats.


Well, you killed the gish.

An interesting side effect, but I don't think so. Rather, it would probably force a gish to devote his spell slots to only buffs, so he could have them up all the time, instead of preparing a few Persisted Buffs and then wading into melee and casting.



Come to think of it, there's a world of difference between "spells as written" and "ban all metamagic".

Huh. I guess you're right. I didn't really think of that. Still, there are tons of prestige classes that alter how melee works too, so I think I won't ask about this, just the metamagic (after all, metamagic is for any caster, as opposed to devoting levels and prerequisite skill points/feats)

[Prime32]

Metamagic feats aren't that big an issue - they're used mainly by blasters. Sure, clerics can make their buffs last all day, but that's because of a poorly-written Divine feat rather than Metamagic.

[NeoSeraphi]

Metamagic feats aren't that big an issue - they're used mainly by blasters. Sure, clerics can make their buffs last all day, but that's because of a poorly-written Divine feat rather than Metamagic.

I have been unfortunate enough to witness a spellcaster (Unearthed Arcana)/incantatrix who used the Item Familiar feat to up his Spellcraft check high enough that he could freely Persist with the incantatrix class features. He had all the Heart spells persisted, along with divine power, bite of the werebear, greater mirror image, and a +5 splitting composite longbow that he got a strange version of sizing approved for, allowing its Str adjustment to automatically adjust to his current Strength score. That, along with the Wings of Flying item he got allowed him to just sit in the air and rain hell down upon other people.

The funny thing is, the only other person in the group was a cleric, and he had never even heard of the Divine Metamagic feat. It was kind of surreal.

Then of course there is the famous epitome of a blaster, the Mailman, stacking all his metamagic along with that powerful Ocular spell feat to shoot deadly orbs of force from his eyes.

Then there is the Arcane Thesis enervation specialist who can drop outsiders and magical beasts with ease (and with the right choice of double-magic stacking, dragons as well)

I dunno, maybe I've just seen too many casters using metamagic to agree with you.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Maybe just ban metamagic stacking? It's a lot harder to build up to truly terrifying cheese if you can only use one metamagic feat per spell.

Plus, you know, ban divine metamagic and natural spell.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Breaking the action economy is still easy, you just use Time Stop, Craft Contingency, and Imbue Familiar and the like...

Really, this does not in any way hinder the T1 and T2 classes from continuing to be able to break the game multiple ways simultaneously.

[nedz]

What about banning Metamagic Reducers (Inc DMM and Incantrix) AND Action Economy effects AND ... (this list is longer but I'll get back to those) ?

[tyckspoon]

metamagic reduction use

Common thread: those builds find ways to not actually pay for metamagic. (Also the Heart of (Element) spells last hr/level already, not sure why you'd bother persisting those.. Elemental Body, maybe.) If you're looking to make metamagic reasonable again, target the actual problem- make Arcane Thesis not take anything lower than 0. DMM can't be used to cast a spell of higher level than what you would normally be able to cast. Incantatrix.. is just messed up and either should be banned outright or only used under direct acknowledgement that everybody wants to and is capable of playing at that power level. The class really needs to be gutted and rewritten from base if you're trying to make a balanced metamagic-mage PrC (probably wind up with something that looks a lot more like the Recaster or the Dragonlance War Mage.)

[nightwyrm]

Without metamagics casters would just be pretty broken instead of stupidly broken. Metamagics aren't the problem. The problems are with the spells themselves.

[Curious]

Without metamagics casters would just be pretty broken instead of stupidly broken. Metamagics aren't the problem. The problems are with the spells themselves.

It's not even entirely that (although many spells are quite ridiculous). It's the ability to access every spell in the game that really clinches it. If the wizard had to choose a single school of magic to learn spells from, they would immediately drop to tier 3 to 2ish.

[faceroll]

It has a huge effect on the action economy and spell slot economy of anything that uses DMM as a crutch (clerics).

[NeoSeraphi]

I'm not trying to drop the wizard a tier or anything stupid like that, I just wanted to hear what everyone thought about casters who couldn't use metamagic.

Here's a different question: If you were playing a wizard (any kind of wizard, pick your favorite) and metamagic feats/classes didn't exist, what would your build look like? What would you spend your feats on?

[Provengreil]

It's not even entirely that (although many spells are quite ridiculous). It's the ability to access every spell in the game that really clinches it. If the wizard had to choose a single school of magic to learn spells from, they would immediately drop to tier 3 to 2ish.

lower than that, i think, depending on their chosen school(s). imagine a transmutation only wizard as compared to an enchanter. sometimes it feels like half the game is immune to enchantment, but most everything disintegrates.

[Bakkan]

I'm not trying to drop the wizard a tier or anything stupid like that, I just wanted to hear what everyone thought about casters who couldn't use metamagic.

Here's a different question: If you were playing a wizard (any kind of wizard, pick your favorite) and metamagic feats/classes didn't exist, what would your build look like? What would you spend your feats on?

Only a few of my favorite Wizard builds are built using metamagic at all. The others would remain essentially unchanged. the ones that would stay the same are things like Wizard 3/Master Conjurer 4/Malconvoker 9/Archmage 4, Iot7FV builds, artificer builds like Wizard 3/Cleric 1/MT 10/X 6 with item creation feats, and so forth. The builds that I simply wouldn't use anymore would be Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 or Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 5, i.e. those builds that are metamagic specialists.

In short, I find that for most of my builds, metamagic is just gravy, and eliminating them would reduce the power only slightly but the fun a little more than slightly. I like playing the resource management game of higher-level spells vs customized lower-level spells. Wizards are my favorite class, and I would still play a Wizard in a game like this, but I would be a lot more likely to try something else.

[NeoSeraphi]

Only a few of my favorite Wizard builds are built using metamagic at all. The others would remain essentially unchanged. the ones that would stay the same are things like Wizard 3/Master Conjurer 4/Malconvoker 9/Archmage 4, Iot7FV builds, artificer builds like Wizard 3/Cleric 1/MT 10/X 6 with item creation feats, and so forth. The builds that I simply wouldn't use anymore would be Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 or Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 5, i.e. those builds that are metamagic specialists.

Okay, so for the Conjurer build I assume you use Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summon, then you get Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), and Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) for free, so what else do you spend your feat slots on?

[Treblain]

It's not even entirely that (although many spells are quite ridiculous). It's the ability to access every spell in the game that really clinches it. If the wizard had to choose a single school of magic to learn spells from, they would immediately drop to tier 3 to 2ish.

This is an interesting point, but unfortunately, limiting schools is not a good method of balance, either, because the power level from school to school is unbalanced, too. If one were to rewrite the spell lists to even out the versatility of each school, then you might be able to do something with this.

[Bakkan]

Okay, so for the Conjurer build I assume you use Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summon, then you get Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), and Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) for free, so what else do you spend your feat slots on?

Cloudy Conjuration and Craft Wondrous Item are easy choices, I tend to like Improved Initiative, Craft Magic Arms and Armor could be useful, and for this build in particular there's a feat from Frostburn (afb atm) that adds cold damage to summoned monsters' attacks. Martial Study(shadow stride) for some additional mobility, Martial Study (Iron Heart Surge) + prereq for excellence, Shape Soulmeld for many different uses, etc. A dip into Mindbender + Mindsight is something I would consider on any non-good build.

[Endarire]

In large part, metamagic and metapsionics aren't the problem, it's the spells and powers.

No amount of metamagic can reproduce simulacrum, time stop, and other very powerful spells.

[Eldan]

Hmm. What feats to take on a Wiz 20 when there's no metamagic around...

Certainly Craft Wondrous Item, it's one of the best around. A reserve feat or two, at the earliest possible level, when its still useful. Augment Summoning, yes. Fly-by attack might actually be nice once you get Overland flight. Able learner might be worth a consideration, if it was a human. Oh, and extraordinary concentration.

Perhaps a few strange ones, even, like Bind Vestige or Martial Study. An Iron Heart Surging wizard would least be funny. If you had feats to spare, you could perhaps get Mind over Body, to improve your probably worst save.

[faceroll]

Hmm. What feats to take on a Wiz 20 when there's no metamagic around...

Certainly Craft Wondrous Item, it's one of the best around. A reserve feat or two, at the earliest possible level, when its still useful. Augment Summoning, yes. Fly-by attack might actually be nice once you get Overland flight. Able learner might be worth a consideration, if it was a human. Oh, and extraordinary concentration.

Perhaps a few strange ones, even, like Bind Vestige or Martial Study. An Iron Heart Surging wizard would least be funny. If you had feats to spare, you could perhaps get Mind over Body, to improve your probably worst save.

The casters that use the most metamagic are clerics. Most metamagic, without crap like incantatrix or arcane thesis, is pretty terrible. There are really only 4, maybe 5, metamagic feats worth having if you aren't going to be able to lower their cost: split ray, sculpt spell, invisible spell, quicken spell, and maybe extend spell.

If you're a spontaneous caster with limits on how many spells you can learn, heighten is great for stuff like glitterdust or grease.

So what I'm trying to say is- as a wizard, most of my feats are getting spent on "weird stuff" anyway. Or on crafting.

[Wings of Peace]

Wizard's wouldn't be running around with persistent buffs but not much would change really imo. As others have said blasting is less of an option because of the poor yields. Most of the ridiculous spells aren't rediculous because of metamagic though, they're ridiculous first and then metamagic multiplies that.

[NeoSeraphi]

Oh, and extraordinary concentration.


I've never heard of that feat before. What book is it in?

[Godskook]

1.Where metamagic is concerned, tyckspoon has it right, its reducers, not the metamagic, that's the problem. Without reducers, almost all metamagic becomes far more reasonable. My personal solution is to disallow reduction unless you're capable of casting the spell without it. For odd-balls like the Artificer, I treat them as if they were wizards of that class level for this purpose.

2.Concerning spells in general, metamagic doesn't set the standard, its taking the non-standard stuff and trying to catch up. Sure, I could mailman single-target insta-death, but that costs quite a few spell slots and practically my entire build, -or- I could just summon a hoard of angels with a single slot.

(No bonus points for catching the reference, its too common these days)

[Ernir]

Killing Persistent Spell and Quicken Spell does make my generic fullcaster builds different. Clericzillas are going to actually need some time setting up, and Wizards are less likely to have cool buffs up if someone tries to jump them?

But most everything from the really good combat spells (Black Tentacles) to the just trolololo-broken spells (Simulacrum) don't rely on metamagic at all. And a whole lot of innocent stuff gets caught in the crossfire, like semi-competent blasters.

Once again. The spells themselves are the problem.

I've never heard of that feat before. What book is it in?
Complete Adventurer.

[Tyndmyr]

Blasting is even less of an option. Action economy might be improved slightly by the removal of Quicken spell, but probably not all that much. Persistent Spell silliness disappears. LCB doesn't work anymore (if it ever did). Casters can still order reality around.

In short, it gets a resounding 'meh' from me. It's not actually bad, I could even go with it, it just changes so little in the grand scheme of things that I wonder why bother.

Same, same.

Very few metamagics are worth using without reducers. Some are not worth taking even with reducers.

I've made many a wizard without a single metamagic feat.