Help with my Spellthief-to-IotSFV build!

[gallagher]

So i am preparing to start a new game soon and i was wondering what you guys thought of the build i am planning to pursue. Note that i do not know what level we are starting, so i am planning the whole thing out.

Human(or Gnome or Halfling) Bard 1/Spellthief 11/Sublime Chord 1/IotSFV 7

Levels Explained:
11 levels of spellthief gives me abilities up to arcane sight, and more importantly 3rd level spells for SC, plus the ability to steal 5th level spells

1 level of Bard gives me the bardic music ability that i need for SC

1 level of Sublime Chord, above all else, gives me 4th and 5th level spells.

7 levels of Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil give me... well... all of it. this is the part of the build i really cant wait to start. the veils are awesome, and i progress sublime chord spellcasting to get 8 level spells. its nice, doesnt get 9th level spells but thats not too bad.

i feel like this makes it a real heads-i-win-tails-you-lose build. if you want to attack me, good luck. if it hits and you want it to affect me, good luck. if you wanted to keep your spells, too bad. if you wanted to keep your protections, too bad. oh and dont try to run away from this guy, his bard levels give him a whip, so improved trip line may be explored, and the wards can cut off any retreat attempts.

Feats that i need: master spellthief, and the three feats for IotSFV. i do not know if i am allowed to take flaws, so it looks like i may need to play a human if i want any other feats before i go into initiate. even if i go with gnome or halfling, i have one feat to play with, any suggestions?

Abilities: CHA>DEX>INT=CON>WIS>STR
This is a very CHA friendly build, so i need lots of that for spells and many of my skills. DEX because i feel like sneak attacking with a whip, and if i go human i can fit Weapon Finesse and still have a feat to possibly throw at the bard flavoring of the build. INT because you have a lot of skills that you need for prestige classes and a lot of skills you need to be useful to the party as the rogue/scout type. CON is for hit points, as it is in my best interest to stay alive. WIS and STR arent necessary, but would be nice to put a 10 into.

some of my gear:
well the level of bard gives me a whip, so i want to use that to my advantage. can i sneak attack with a whip? i figure it would look cool too. i will probably use throwing knives or axes, so i can wield them and threaten the area around me at the same time and have some lethal damage options at range. i gotta figure out how much money i can allocate to weapons too

for armor, i am assuming i will get mithril something or other. in the mean time i have a good dex and will try to stay out of combat unless necessary.

Gloves of the balanced hand will be useful, need the cloak of charisma and boots of dex


i have not yet figured out the spells i wish to know, but i need at least 5 abjuration spells, two of which must be at least 4th level. i have 5th levels spells before hitting IotSFV, and get up to 8th level spells

so all i have left to decide, and would like advice on, is race, figure out my last one or two feats, equipment, and what spells i want. any advice is appreciated!

[gallagher]

i figure my feats will go
Human: Skill Focus (spellcraft)
1: Spell Focus (Abj)
3: Weapon Finesse
6: Snowflake Wardance
9: Master Spellthief
12: Greater Spell Focus (Abj)
15: ?
18: ?

i get 2 more if i get flaws, which i would spend on combat expertise and improve trip. I'd like to really utilize the whip, but will otherwise be attacking with a shortsword. is there anything i should look at while spending money on my whip?

[gallagher]

Spell list, for spells level 0 i take from the bard list, 1-3 from spell thief, then 4-8 either bard or sorc/wiz, and if it is on both i take it from bard. this is assuming that by level 20 i have 28 charisma (roll 18, 4 from levels, 6 from cloak of CHA)

0 level, know 4 spells with 2 spell slots: Mage Hand, Message, Open/Close, Stick
1-level, know 4 spells with 4 spell slots: Shield, Nerveskitter, Fist of Stone, Sniper's Shot
2-level, know 3 spells with 3 spell slots: Prot. from Arrows, Blur, Whirling Blade
3-level, know 2 spells with 2 spell slots: Blink, Bite of the Wererat,
4-level, know 4 spells with 6 spell slots: Stoneskin, Flight of the Dragon, Orb of Cold, Greater Invisibility
5-level, know 4 spells with 6 spell slots: Break Enchantment, Vitriolic Sphere, Teleport, Greater Invisibility
6-level, know 4 spells with 3 spell slots: Bight of the Weretiger, True Seeing, Greater Dispel Magic, Acid Storm
7-level, know 3 spells with 3 spell slots: Antimagic Ray, Body of War, Transfix
8-level, know 2 spells with 2 spell slots: Iron Body, Ghost Form


i will wait to add this and the feats to the original post after i get some feedback on how good a list this may be. the goal is primarily to protect me, followed by effects that either trap people into an area (like with the wardings from IotSFV) or harass them while in the area, followed by fun effects. i guess i could use advice on what to put in wands as well

[gallagher]

i feel like once i hit level 7 my WBL will be enough to have a cloack of CHA+2, a +1 Sweeping whip, a wand of grease and other early necessities.

i hope to get wands to harass characters trapped by my walls and other attack spells as i progress in level. ice knife will be a good one. i was thinking maybe some of the wall spells (Fire, ice, light, sand, smoke, and water are all 4th level and below) if i want to play with my food. what are some good cloud/mist spells or similar to place inbetween walls and other barriers?

[Pechvarry]

Dude, I wish i had some advice for you. I just wanted to say, thumbs up for a pretty original build. I was expecting to see Spellthief 1 when I clicked the link. I hope this works well for you.

It also makes me want to build a Suel Arcanamach/Iot7v.

[gallagher]

Dude, I wish i had some advice for you. I just wanted to say, thumbs up for a pretty original build. I was expecting to see Spellthief 1 when I clicked the link. I hope this works well for you.

It also makes me want to build a Suel Arcanamach/Iot7v.

well any advice would be great, because the extent of my arcane experience is in bard and i guess warlock. i wanted to come in at an odd direction, and really could use some gear and spell help. possibly also feats, but i can always just go with the flow, see where i need improvements as i play

[gallagher]

also, can i sneak attack with a whip?

[Treblain]

also, can i sneak attack with a whip?

3.5 SRD doesn't mention it, but Pathfinder SRD says yes. That probably means the RAW answer is no, but the RAMS answer is yes.

[gorfnab]

also, can i sneak attack with a whip?
You can sneak attack with any weapon as long as you meet the conditions for sneak attack.

Some ideas:

Spellthief 9 (Trickster Variant from Dragon #353)/ Spellsinger 1 (RoF)/ Sublime Chord 2/ IotSFV 7/ X 1 (something with full casting) - requires the feat Apprentice: Entertainer to work though.

Spellthief 9 (Trickster Variant from Dragon #353)/ Spellsinger 1 (RoF)/ Sublime Chord 1/ Unseen Seer 2/ IotSFV 7 - again requires Apprentice: Entertainer, you loose out on Song of Arcane Power but gain Advance Learning: Hunters Eye (spell, PHBII) for a huge boost to sneak attack especially with the Master Spellthief feat factored in.

[gallagher]

You can sneak attack with any weapon as long as you meet the conditions for sneak attack.

Some ideas:

Spellthief 9 (Trickster Variant from Dragon #353)/ Spellsinger 1 (RoF)/ Sublime Chord 2/ IotSFV 7/ X 1 (something with full casting) - requires the feat Apprentice: Entertainer to work though.

Spellthief 9 (Trickster Variant from Dragon #353)/ Spellsinger 1 (RoF)/ Sublime Chord 1/ Unseen Seer 2/ IotSFV 7 - again requires Apprentice: Entertainer, you loose out on Song of Arcane Power but gain Advance Learning: Hunters Eye (spell, PHBII) for a huge boost to sneak attack especially with the Master Spellthief feat factored in.
what is the trickster variant? and i will have to see if drag mag flies. i also dont own RoF

[gallagher]

can a prestige class progress a chameleon's spellcasting granted by arcane focus? if so, and as i assume either spellsinger or trickster varient gives bard song abilities, i could still keep absorb spell by going spellthief 7/chameleon2/spellsinger1/sublime chord 2/IotSFV7/fullcaster1

[Keld Denar]

No, you can'd advance Chameleon with anything other than Chameleon, Uncanny Trickster (2/3) or Legacy Champion (7/10?). No Chameleon into Iot7V, sorry.

I looked over your initial build on my phone last night, but wanted to get to a real computer to give you some feedback.

1) Sublime Chord is REDICULOUSLY skill intensive. I don't have the Spellthief skill list in front of me, but you might want to triple check that skill list vs Sublime Chord to make sure you meet the Perform, Listen, Spellcraft, Knowledge, and Profession reqs. You might need Able Learner at 1st if you don't have enough Int to get by, which locks you into Human.

2) You should REALLY try to take your 11th level as Sublime Chord. SC casting is 10 levels long, and the earliest you can get in is 11. Thus, every level you delay entry costs you 1 level of spellcasting. Every level you lose past the 1st costs you a whole spell level (so losing 1 level gives you 9s right at 20, losing 2 gives you 8s at 20, losing 3 gives you 7s at 20). Not only are you losing off the top end, but you are also losing in your progression.

I know you said you need 11 levels to get 3rd level spells for SC entry, but I'd highly encourage you to consider an early entry idea. Sanctum Spell is easiest (requires only 1 other MM feat), and you would have "3rd" level spells with only 8 levels on ST. I really think thats worth it over the minor extra bonuses those last 3 levels give you.

EDIT: If you do get into Sublime Chord early, take Dismissal as one of your 4th level spells and hop into Sacred Exorcist at some point. This'll pick up Turn Undead, and all of the fun things you can do with that. Divine/Devotion feats are often pretty awesome.

3) For feats, I really like Minor Shapeshift on anyone who can cast Polymorph (or any Polymorph-like spell, if Polymorph is banned. Trollshape in the Spell Compendium works just fine). Other than that, I'd consider taking Rapid Metamagic + Quicken Spell at some point. At late game, action economy is king, and Quicken Spell is the king of kings. Don't be a chump with only 1 spell/round.

4) For gear, other than the normal +Cha, +Con, +Resistance items, I'd look at getting some form of Death Ward. On a bardic chassis, you can wear light armor. Get a +1 Chainshirt with Soulfire (BoED). That'll save your bacon against many bad things. Also, I'd pick up a Scout's Headband (MIC) or 2, for on demand True Seeing, a Third Eye: Clarity for on demand Stun/Daze negation, and at least one or two forms of short range teleportation. Also, consider a +1 Sudden Stunning Bloodstone Spellstoring slashing weapon. You have Whirling Blade and Sneak Attack. Toss a pair of Vamp Touches in your weapon and start off combat in the surprise round with a Whirling Blade for mega damage and mega temp HP gain. Oh, and a Circlet of Rapid Casting is nice if you plan on casting Whirling Blade fairly often. 3/day spells up to 2nd level are Quickened for free, and at 15,000g, its less than 1/2 the price of a Least MM Rod of Quicken.

[hex0]

How I would do this:

Spellthief 5/Trapsmith 4/Prestige Bard 2/Sublime Chord 1/IotSFV 7/XXX. I believe that works...

Edit: But honestly, why not take a prc with easier entrance for IotSFV? Nar Demonbinder, for example.

[gallagher]

How I would do this:

Spellthief 5/Trapsmith 4/Prestige Bard 2/Sublime Chord 1/IotSFV 7/XXX. I believe that works...

Edit: But honestly, why not take a prc with easier entrance for IotSFV? Nar Demonbinder, for example.
i want at least 7 spellthief levels so i can use absorb spell.
What is Nar Demonbinder and how do i get into it?

[hex0]

i want at least 7 spellthief levels so i can use absorb spell.
What is Nar Demonbinder and how do i get into it?

It is online: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030502a&page=2 it is missing the 1 8th per day at 6th level.

The trickster variant of Spellthief (Dragon #353) would still get you absorb spell with this build: Human Paragon 1/Spellthief 7/Human Paragon 1/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Initiate 7/ etc.

[gallagher]

No, you can'd advance Chameleon with anything other than Chameleon, Uncanny Trickster (2/3) or Legacy Champion (7/10?). No Chameleon into Iot7V, sorry.

I looked over your initial build on my phone last night, but wanted to get to a real computer to give you some feedback.

1) Sublime Chord is REDICULOUSLY skill intensive. I don't have the Spellthief skill list in front of me, but you might want to triple check that skill list vs Sublime Chord to make sure you meet the Perform, Listen, Spellcraft, Knowledge, and Profession reqs. You might need Able Learner at 1st if you don't have enough Int to get by, which locks you into Human.

2) You should REALLY try to take your 11th level as Sublime Chord. SC casting is 10 levels long, and the earliest you can get in is 11. Thus, every level you delay entry costs you 1 level of spellcasting. Every level you lose past the 1st costs you a whole spell level (so losing 1 level gives you 9s right at 20, losing 2 gives you 8s at 20, losing 3 gives you 7s at 20). Not only are you losing off the top end, but you are also losing in your progression.

I know you said you need 11 levels to get 3rd level spells for SC entry, but I'd highly encourage you to consider an early entry idea. Sanctum Spell is easiest (requires only 1 other MM feat), and you would have "3rd" level spells with only 8 levels on ST. I really think thats worth it over the minor extra bonuses those last 3 levels give you.

EDIT: If you do get into Sublime Chord early, take Dismissal as one of your 4th level spells and hop into Sacred Exorcist at some point. This'll pick up Turn Undead, and all of the fun things you can do with that. Divine/Devotion feats are often pretty awesome.

3) For feats, I really like Minor Shapeshift on anyone who can cast Polymorph (or any Polymorph-like spell, if Polymorph is banned. Trollshape in the Spell Compendium works just fine). Other than that, I'd consider taking Rapid Metamagic + Quicken Spell at some point. At late game, action economy is king, and Quicken Spell is the king of kings. Don't be a chump with only 1 spell/round.

4) For gear, other than the normal +Cha, +Con, +Resistance items, I'd look at getting some form of Death Ward. On a bardic chassis, you can wear light armor. Get a +1 Chainshirt with Soulfire (BoED). That'll save your bacon against many bad things. Also, I'd pick up a Scout's Headband (MIC) or 2, for on demand True Seeing, a Third Eye: Clarity for on demand Stun/Daze negation, and at least one or two forms of short range teleportation. Also, consider a +1 Sudden Stunning Bloodstone Spellstoring slashing weapon. You have Whirling Blade and Sneak Attack. Toss a pair of Vamp Touches in your weapon and start off combat in the surprise round with a Whirling Blade for mega damage and mega temp HP gain. Oh, and a Circlet of Rapid Casting is nice if you plan on casting Whirling Blade fairly often. 3/day spells up to 2nd level are Quickened for free, and at 15,000g, its less than 1/2 the price of a Least MM Rod of Quicken.
1) yeah, it looks like i will have to take able learner at 1. im not really disappointed i guess, human is a good race and gives me an extra skillpoint per level.

2) if i can find a prestige class that i can progress quicker that would be great, but i am not sure how sanctum spell works because it says it takes up the same spell slot. are there any other feats that can help me out, and is it at all possible to make my sanctum a moveable area? and if not, is it really all that bad to not reach 9th level spells?

[hex0]

Sanctum spell trick doesn't work. It is ridiculous and any sensible DM will slap you for suggesting it. :smallannoyed:

[Keld Denar]

Sanctum Spell DOES work, but I won't absolve you of any slapping you might receive.

When you cast the spell within your sanctum, its is considered one level higher, regardless of what slot it took. So if you cast a Whirling Blade inside of your sanctum, its a 3rd level spell. Thusly, you have the ability to cast 3rd level spells, even though you technically don't have any 3rd level spell slots. You can leave your sanctum without losing any class abilities dependant on it by the same reasoning that you don't lose your class abilities for having cast all of your X level or higher spells (where X is the prereq needed by the class). Even though you might not be able to cast the spell at any specific moment, you still have the potential to do so.

It does work. Its been debated for years, and every time its brought up, its promptly proven valid. As with all early entry tec, you have to understand what your DM's comfort level is. Early entry into something like Shadowcraft Mage? I'd probably not allow it. Early entry into Sublime Chord on a mostly Spellthief chassis? Significantly less powerful.

[nedz]

Are you familier with Whips ?

From SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm)

Whip

A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped.

When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.

Best for a tripper obviously, Combat Expertise is nice also. Not sure if its the right schtick for this char ?

[hex0]

Here is a decent build

Trickster Spellthief 7/Abjurant Champion 3/Initiate 1/Demon Binder 1/Initiate 6 (advance Demon Binder first)

or just Trickster Spellthief 7/Abjurant Champion 3/Initiate 7/etc.

[Elric VIII]

How do you feel about Dragon Magazine?

There is a class called Heartfire Fanner that grants you Bardic Music without lost CLs. You can enter with 10 ranks in some skills, SF (perform), and Negotiator. If you have no previous Bardic Music abilities, you immediately gain the equivalent of a 5th level Bard. This would allow you earlier entry into Sublime Chord, since you're not losing a level of spellcasting to Bard 1.

[Fax Celestis]

1) Sublime Chord is REDICULOUSLY skill intensive. I don't have the Spellthief skill list in front of me, but you might want to triple check that skill list vs Sublime Chord to make sure you meet the Perform, Listen, Spellcraft, Knowledge, and Profession reqs. You might need Able Learner at 1st if you don't have enough Int to get by, which locks you into Human.

Perform, Listen, Spellcraft, and Profession are all features of the Uncanny Trickster, though, who gets 8+Int and 2/3 +1 level of existing class feature levels. You could go Bard 1/Spellthief 9/Uncanny Trickster 3/Sublime Chord 1/Iot7FV 6, but you lose out on Iot7FV 7.

Alternatively, you could go Spellthief 11/Bard 1 and drop all your points when you take your bard level into perform. Then go right into SC and then into Iot7FV.

[hex0]

Alternatively, you could go Spellthief 11/Bard 1 and drop all your points when you take your bard level into perform. Then go right into SC and then into Iot7FV.

Cross class skills don't work like that. You would need the Apprentice Feat, Human Paragon 1, etc.

Also, Spellthieves don't have profession as a class skill. They can't hold down a job, the bums.

[Keld Denar]

Crossclass skills definitely work like that. You can put as many points into the skill at any time, as long as you are mindful of point costs and skill maximums.

If you take Bard1 at ECL12, and you had a super high Int, you could immediately dump 15 points into 15 ranks of Perform (assuming you had 0 before then) if you wanted. Its a class skill for the level you are taking (so you pay 1:1), and its among the skills you've had as a class skill (as of now), so the cap is level +3 (rather than (level +3)/2).

That said, you'd need a REALLY high Int to backfill the number of skills you'd need to get into Sublime Chord. You're best bet is to take Bard1 at level 1 (tons of points), and use Able Learner to keep the skills you need topped off 1:1 via Able Learner even though they aren't Spellthief class skills.

[Fax Celestis]

Bard and Spellthief get the same points at level 1, but Able Learner probably would work. Alternatively, you could CC perform until you take your bard level, since it'll alleviate the number you need to drop in it to top it out.

[Icewraith]

I don't think whips work with sneak attack. Don't you need to be able to deal lethal damage?

[Keld Denar]

No. You can deal SA damage with a sap, and saps only deal non-lethal. The only stipulation is that a weapon has to be used "optimally", which means that you can't deal lethal SA with a weapon that normally deals non-lethal damage, and you can'd deal non-lethal SA with a weapon that normally does lethal. IE: If you tried to strike with a sap for real damage, you wouldn't get SA, and if you tried to strike with a shortsword for non-lethal damage, you wouldn't get SA damage.

That said, a whip is incapable of dealing damage (lethal or otherwise) to a person wearing armor, or a creature with +3 or higher natural armor. SA or not, your whip isn't going to hurt much. The solution for this was printed in a 3.0 book Sword and Fist, the whip-dagger. It wasn't reprinted in a 3.5 source, but should still be legal for play (since anything not updated can be ported with minimal changes as needed). DM discression is advised, but for something as small as this, it shouldn't be a factor. Also, if you are proficent with whips, you are proficient with whip-daggers, which is nice.

[gallagher]

ok, whip dagger, got it. and i will be going with able learner at level 1.

so if i get trickster spellthief accepted by the DM, as i believe i saw in another thread, i get bard progression and spells known for spells, all taken from the wiz/sorc abjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion and transmutation spell list. that would let me go Bard 1/Spellthief 9/SC2/IotSFV7/SC1.

if i cant get trickster spellthief, i dont think it is so bad to be missing out on 9th level spells when i fill the scout role more than the primary caster role. i am still at this point better than a rogue, which i think is a nice little accomplishment. my original build i think will still do fine.

for wands, what are good spells to wand that will be able to harass characters who are trapped? i plan on getting wands of wall of ice, so i am looking for spells similar to cloudkill, though hopefully different effects.

also, when i have the option to switch out spells known. because i do not have conjuration early on, i can not get ice knife, which i am planning on wanding anyway. but can i avoid that expense by switching spells later on when i have conjuration on my list (from Sublime Chord)?

[hex0]

Can you take Prestige Bard? You might as well instead of taking Bard 1

Trickster Spellthief 7/Prestige Bard 3/SC 1/Iot7fv 7/Abjurant Champion 2

Or whatever.

[gallagher]

Can you take Prestige Bard? You might as well instead of taking Bard 1

Trickster Spellthief 7/Prestige Bard 3/SC 1/Iot7fv 7/Abjurant Champion 2

Or whatever.
would ab champ be better than more SC? because if i am taking snowflake wardance, i want to get as many uses as possible

[Keld Denar]

SC2 is nice. Song of Arcane Might (or Power? Or whatever) is pretty sexy. +4 CL makes your buffs last longer, harder to dispel, helps you overcome SR, and sometimes even deal more damage (if you aren't already CL capped). What else are you gonna use your bard songs for at that point?

I still hold to my Sacred Exorcist suggestion. Turn Undead is really awesome, and Dismissal is a 4th level Abjuration that helps you qualify for Iot7V anyway. Whether you'd take it before starting Iot7V, or after, though...hmmmm...

[gallagher]

SC2 is nice. Song of Arcane Might (or Power? Or whatever) is pretty sexy. +4 CL makes your buffs last longer, harder to dispel, helps you overcome SR, and sometimes even deal more damage (if you aren't already CL capped). What else are you gonna use your bard songs for at that point?

I still hold to my Sacred Exorcist suggestion. Turn Undead is really awesome, and Dismissal is a 4th level Abjuration that helps you qualify for Iot7V anyway. Whether you'd take it before starting Iot7V, or after, though...hmmmm...
oh DMM is a good option, especially on a spontaneous caster build. i just dont know where to properly fit it in. if i can get trickster spellthief 9 bard 1 (or trickster 7/prestige bard 3, or whatever), and i want to make the most of SC and Initiate, i have to focus more on them. what use is getting turn undeads when i dont have a feat at that point to spend on it?

[Keld Denar]

DMM won't work. There is errata that states that it only works with Divine spells. Unless you can find some way to get your SC spells to count as Divine (good luck), it won't work. If you were Illumian, you could use NaenHoon just fine, since it works on Arcane OR Divine spells, or you could simply use a different [Divine] or Devotion feat, like Trickery Devotion or such. I don't remember if Divine Spellpower has that clause...

[hex0]

DMM won't work. There is errata that states that it only works with Divine spells. Unless you can find some way to get your SC spells to count as Divine (good luck), it won't work. If you were Illumian, you could use NaenHoon just fine, since it works on Arcane OR Divine spells, or you could simply use a different [Divine] or Devotion feat, like Trickery Devotion or such. I don't remember if Divine Spellpower has that clause...

You could get into Rainbow Servant to get divine spells but you wouldn't get the capstone till level 21. :/

You could go for Trickster Spellthief 7/Prestige Bard 2/Sacred Exorcist 1/SC 1/Ini 7/etc. But you wouldn't get much out of Sacred Exorcist in the build.

Trickster Spellthief 7/Prestige Bard 1/Abjurant Champion 2/SC 1/Initiate 7/etc. would be my best suggestion.

Abjurant Champion would help make up for your poor BAB and it would mess well with Initiate since they are both Abjuration focused. :smallwink:

[hex0]

If you were somehow allowed to use a variant of a variant, you could use the Divine Bard instead of the regular Bard for spellcasting in regards to the Trickster Spellthief. Kind of pushing it to get divine magic, but if you want it, go for it.

[Fax Celestis]

DMM won't work. There is errata that states that it only works with Divine spells. Unless you can find some way to get your SC spells to count as Divine (good luck), it won't work. If you were Illumian, you could use NaenHoon just fine, since it works on Arcane OR Divine spells, or you could simply use a different [Divine] or Devotion feat, like Trickery Devotion or such. I don't remember if Divine Spellpower has that clause...

...couldn't he use some sort of shenaniganery with Alternative Source Spell (Dr. 325)?


Prerequisite: Ability to cast both divine and arcane spells.
Benefit: You can choose to prepare any of your divine spells as arcane spells or any of your arcane spells as divine spells. An alternative-sourced spell uses up a spell slot from the class that normally grants the spell. Such a spell is prepared normally. An alternative-sourced spell is cast as if your caster level were 1 level lower. For example, a 1st-level cleric/6th-level wizard casts a divine fireball as a 5th-level wizard.

[Keld Denar]

That would work, assuming you had access to divine spells. If you could indeed piggyback the Trickster and Divine Bard ACFs, that would give you the answer right there.

[hex0]

That would work, assuming you had access to divine spells. If you could indeed piggyback the Trickster and Divine Bard ACFs, that would give you the answer right there.

I suggested it, but I think it is a stretch, for sure. :smallconfused:

It would be MAD as you would need decent WIS and a high CHA instead of just a high CHA...