group hostility

[Draig]

Another DM dilemma for the playground, I'm currently DMing a 4 group party with 2 new players. First off before anyone asks they have grasped the game beautifully and love it. The problem now lies with one of the Veteran players. For some reason this player is acting out with his character. When the party did introductions he mad his character seem drunk so as not to have to talk much, when the party was devising a plan to deal with defense of a bridge he would roll his dice and shout "I predict the weather for today" I would humor him, then 2 minutes later he would roll and shout "I predict the weather for the next week!" Then as if that wasn't bad enough he would bury his nose in a DND book during combat and slow his turn to a crawl, and finally he argued with me on a ruling even though he know's that a DM overrides the book. The worst part is the 2 new players approached me about him asking if we could do something because they felt like he wasn't taking the game seriously and when I approached him he told me he hated it because the others didn't respect him like the other vet player! If you were the DM in this what would YOU do?

[NNescio]

Another DM dilemma for the playground, I'm currently DMing a 4 group party with 2 new players. First off before anyone asks they have grasped the game beautifully and love it. The problem now lies with one of the Veteran players. For some reason this player is acting out with his character. When the party did introductions he mad his character seem drunk so as not to have to talk much, when the party was devising a plan to deal with defense of a bridge he would roll his dice and shout "I predict the weather for today" I would humor him, then 2 minutes later he would roll and shout "I predict the weather for the next week!" Then as if that wasn't bad enough he would bury his nose in a DND book during combat and slow his turn to a crawl, and finally he argued with me on a ruling even though he know's that a DM overrides the book. The worst part is the 2 new players approached me about him asking if we could do something because they felt like he wasn't taking the game seriously and when I approached him he told me he hated it because the others didn't respect him like the other vet player! If you were the DM in this what would YOU do?

Sounds like passive-aggressive temper tantrums. Ask him straight up what's wrong with him. and tell him to vocalize his complaints (if any) instead of disrupting the game at random and hoping for people to find out.

[Anderlith]

Tell him that if he acts like a child how can he except them to respect him?

[big teej]

wierd.... I had a guy with almost the EXACT same problem in an on-off group. minus the tantrums


he'd just occaisinally be a bit of a prick in character (not disruptively, but to a point that it was noticiable for me)


he voiced the same concern.

I told him (basically) "man up and say it to THEM. not ME. I am /not/ going to go out of my way to make you look awesome."

followed by the caveat I always give "you are free to chew out the party over things that are bugging you. but. I do not want to know about it"

[Grod_The_Giant]

Talk to him out of game. Tell him that you understand his frustrations, but that the way he's acting isn't helping anything. Mention that the entire group is getting frustrated with his behavior. Tell him that respect has to be earned, etc. Tell him all this in a calm, reasonable manner, then warn him that if he keeps screwing around you won't invite him back to the game.

If he keeps screwing around, kick him out. A player like that is more trouble than their worth to keep in the game.

[Saviour]

I don't see why they should respect him. Having played many times before doesn't mean you are a "better" player than someone who is new. He may know the rules better, but what should really matter is the roleplaying, and he's proven himself their inferior in that.

As others have said, tell him that he has to change his behavior. If he doesn't, the party can do without him.

[Yahzi]

he told me he hated it because the others didn't respect him like the other vet player!
You could tell him that respect is earned, and he has to earn it from those new players.

You could also tell him that his acting out shows that he doesn't think he should be respected, since he obviously fears competition. Real veterans don't need to brag or be noticed; eventually, when the HPs are down and the dice are against you, their coolness will show itself.

You could tell him those things, but it won't help. He has an inferiority complex, and there's not much a DM can do about it.

[NOhara24]

Tell him to pull the stick out of his ass, or kick him. He's clearly holding back what would be a very good group.

"I predict the weather for X!" says the player.

"You see nothing. Play the game." replies the DM.

He uses his turn to drag the game to a halt? He holds his initiative until the next player goes. He still hasn't decided after that? He holds his initiative again. He'll get the hint eventually.

[OrchestraHc]

Did he act like this before the two new guys showed up?

[Draig]

Never really like this. Before it would rear its head every now and then but by next session he'd b e fine. Now its been 2 sessions in a row like this and he's demanding that I, as dm, intervene. I'm unsure as to whether I should sit the group down and have them all talk it out or just kick him

[Darth_Versity]

Never really like this. Before it would rear its head every now and then but by next session he'd b e fine. Now its been 2 sessions in a row like this and he's demanding that I, as dm, intervene. I'm unsure as to whether I should sit the group down and have them all talk it out or just kick him

Then point out to him that the 'intervention' he is counting on would be to remove the problem, namely, him. Explain that if he really wants the others to respect him he should prove he is worthy of it by being an example of perfect roleplaying and rollplaying to the others.

[Tyndmyr]

Another DM dilemma for the playground, I'm currently DMing a 4 group party with 2 new players. First off before anyone asks they have grasped the game beautifully and love it. The problem now lies with one of the Veteran players. For some reason this player is acting out with his character. When the party did introductions he mad his character seem drunk so as not to have to talk much, when the party was devising a plan to deal with defense of a bridge he would roll his dice and shout "I predict the weather for today" I would humor him, then 2 minutes later he would roll and shout "I predict the weather for the next week!" Then as if that wasn't bad enough he would bury his nose in a DND book during combat and slow his turn to a crawl, and finally he argued with me on a ruling even though he know's that a DM overrides the book. The worst part is the 2 new players approached me about him asking if we could do something because they felt like he wasn't taking the game seriously and when I approached him he told me he hated it because the others didn't respect him like the other vet player! If you were the DM in this what would YOU do?

None of that is the reason. I'm not sure what the root reason is, but all of that is basically a reaction over something. When did this start? Where does the conflict typically begin? Is there a common thread?

Also, note that the "DM overrides the book" is a poor approach to take. If you're wrong on a rule call, admit it and continue. Know the rules well beforehand, and make house rules clear up front, before the game, to avoid dealing with rule confusion mid-combat.

[Tonal Architect]

I don't see why they should respect him. Having played many times before doesn't mean you are a "better" player than someone who is new. He may know the rules better, but what should really matter is the roleplaying, and he's proven himself their inferior in that.

As others have said, tell him that he has to change his behavior. If he doesn't, the party can do without him.

QFT.

I don't really get why some old (veteran my left inferior cheek) players seem to expect others to treat them like some sort of hero. Playing a game for a long time doesn't get one to be worshipped by others, or to visualise oneself as better than others. What next, "They don't treat as their better?"

I'd say this player is trouble. How gentle you'll be when stating this is up to you, but I'd honestly go along the lines of "Behave or get out". There's not much else to do.

[Tarmikos]

Also, note that the "DM overrides the book" is a poor approach to take. If you're wrong on a rule call, admit it and continue. Know the rules well beforehand, and make house rules clear up front, before the game, to avoid dealing with rule confusion mid-combat.

I'm remaining silent on this thread for the most part, as the other veteran player in the group. However, since my DM is working for a while still, I'll reply to this bit. There are two specifics to this arguing against the rules that came up.

The first is that one of the new players, a cleric, wanted to cast consecrate. For ease in bringing them in, we were waiting on specific items for spells, food, and the like, saying it was covered for now by an NPC travelling with the group. And actually, the DM has a house rule, where components for small spells aren't really necessary, you're assumed to carry what you need. The other vet, who has played a caster taking advantage of the house rule before, proceeded to argue why the cleric couldn't do this, to deny him the same benefit he himself has used, and I had to call him on it, to end that.

The second specific instance, is the vet player wanted to take a 20 on a strength check, by virtue of the fact a 20 meant he automatically succeeded. (It was opening something, not an opposed check) The DM said no to this, saying that even a perfect attempt doesn't guarantee success. The example he gave was even with a perfect attempt, one man is not physically able to just lift a car. There are things that are just outside a person's range of ability, regardless.

So neither instance of arguing against the rules was really on the DM. The rule with spells has been a house rule for at least a couple years now, for any campaign he DM's, and as for the second, it wasn't the idea of taking a 20 that was a problem, so much as the belief a 20 meant automatic success.

EDIT: And regarding the terms veteran and new, I realize others probably have been playing longer, it's just a way to distinguish the players with experience in our group, from the first timers.

[missmvicious]

I get this from time to time. We just had to resolve an issue like this last week. I tried talking (respectfully) to the PC who was being so difficult, and he agreed fix it and be back on track next week to be a team player. He didn't, and said he couldn't find a good enough reason in game to like another PC in the game. This wasn't 100% true. He was irritated with the player out of game, and projected that on to his character... besides, he built a real bastard of a character. So we adjourned that week's session, and I let the two players work it out in front of the group. I mediated, and wouldn't allow one person to interrupt the other, but let them take notes on what the other person was saying.

In the end, they both worked out their issues, made compromises, and he agreed to "play nice" from now on. However, he knows about my ultimate conflict resolution House Rule, and knows that I'm not afraid to use it. I only use it on trolls who refuse to let the rest of the group have fun, or players who won't back off and let me DM when I'm trying my best. Needless to say, as patient as I am, I've only ever had to read the house rule, and have never once had to use it. Here it is to use, tweak, or reject altogether [Warning, there is a PG-13 level of foul language in it]:


The Golden Buttplug of Bitchiness:

Dear PCs,
In a world as complex and elaborate as Dungeon's & Dragons, it's not easy to remember every rule in the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide. In some cases, in order to keep the flow of the game, I may have to improvise a rule on the fly, but I'm really doing my best to create a fun, fair, and reasonably realistic experience for you. Please realize that you may not agree with every call I make.

However, if you strongly disagree with my methods, my rules, or my challenges, and believe it is ruining the experience of the game, feel free to talk to me about it before or after a campaign... not during unless it is a truly game-changing bad call. After all, this is supposed to be a fun, fast-paced, and action packed experience that I don't want getting bogged down with criticisms about whether I should've had someone roll a spot check or a search check. Just try to enjoy the game, basically.

But, if you feel that I'm being unfair, and feel compelled to remind me and everyone else of this every 5 freaking minutes, be prepared to see what unfairness really is.

Meet The Golden Buttplug of Bitchiness.

Those who can't stop bitching about the world I've created long enough to enjoy it will suffer a mighty blight of the Gods.

The Golden Buttplug of Bitchiness is a stunning, jewel encrusted golden buttplug that tenaciously hunts and attacks the bitchiest creature in all the lands. It hurls itself at blinding speed through any obstable until it finds its prey. It then pierces any armor, or clothing, drilling its way to, and into the sphincter of its intended target, where it stays until the wretched creature dies or goes on a purgatory quest to seek, and win over, the God's forgiveness.

Those cursed can not run until the curse is lifted. They take a -5 penalty to base land speed, and -1 to Dexterity, and suffer 1 HP of damage upon entry because your butthole is now a shredded mess, but you get a +1 to Charisma for being SO DAMN FABULOUS!

Don't worry about mundane matters like taking a ****... the Gods figure enough **** is coming out of your mouth already.

The curse can only be lifted by going on a purgatory side-quest:
The quest starts with a Prayer, in your most fa-abulous voice:

"Oh mighty Gods of the Realm! Forgive me for being such a loathsome whiny bitch. I super duper pinky swear that I will never do it again! Please remove the Golden Buttplug of Bitchiness from my shredded and bleeding anus so that I may move freely once again. Hugs and kisses, your pal,____."

If the God's believe you are sincere, then you will be spirited away to another dimension, where you will experience an endless barrage of unfair obsurdities so that you can see just how effed up these realms could be. If you complain one time... just one time... during your quest, you are cursed with the buttplug until death. Otherwise you return to the material world with a hardy handshake, a healthy plug-free butthole and a new perspective on life.

During this purgatory side-quest, your character is removed from the primary campaign, and gains no experience for any actions taken during your side-quest. The rest of the players, aware that you have been whisked away to prove your contrition to the gods, will continue on with their campaign and gain experience, gold, and all the other trappings of adventure without you. Once you return to the material plane, you lose all penalties and buffs that come with the curse and can start role-playing and gaining XP the way you always have. The side quest takes as long as the DM decides it will take, but shouldn't be long enough for the PC to fall more than 1 level behind. No spell, artifact, or other effect can remove this curse. All attack rolls by The Golden Buttplug are considered Nat 20, Confirm 20 and cannot be dodged or shielded by any means. Any attempt to do so, only doubles the HP damage dealt since the Buttplug sheared it's way in slightly crooked.

DM Notes: I would blink them into a world where they become a naked Level 1 (bad mix) Class/Race (like a Halfling Barbarian, or a Half-Orc Wizard) combo with a rubber chicken for a weapon, and no other gear (not even a spell book and components pouch. Instead of attack rolls, I'd make them roll to see whether 1 bad thing happens to them or a different bad thing happens to them. If done properly, this can make for a hilarious fail-quest that will lighten the mood for the team and teach a well-deserved harmless lesson about not being a jerk when everyone is just trying to have fun. Keep it silly, and don't try to kill the PC. If you really didn't want him/her to play anymore, you would've just kicked him/her out of the game, right?

[Draig]

Oh....my... Gods.... With your permission I would like to adapt that Golden Buttplug rule into my DMing.

[missmvicious]

By all means, Draig, and anyone else who thinks they could benefit from it. It's my gift to the Playground.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm remaining silent on this thread for the most part, as the other veteran player in the group. However, since my DM is working for a while still, I'll reply to this bit. There are two specifics to this arguing against the rules that came up.

The first is that one of the new players, a cleric, wanted to cast consecrate. For ease in bringing them in, we were waiting on specific items for spells, food, and the like, saying it was covered for now by an NPC travelling with the group. And actually, the DM has a house rule, where components for small spells aren't really necessary, you're assumed to carry what you need. The other vet, who has played a caster taking advantage of the house rule before, proceeded to argue why the cleric couldn't do this, to deny him the same benefit he himself has used, and I had to call him on it, to end that.

If he's aware of the house rule, then there's no worry...and you shouldn't need to resort to DM presidence over rules to justify it. It's just "we play this way, hell, you've done it yourself." Basic fairness should be sufficient.


The second specific instance, is the vet player wanted to take a 20 on a strength check, by virtue of the fact a 20 meant he automatically succeeded. (It was opening something, not an opposed check) The DM said no to this, saying that even a perfect attempt doesn't guarantee success. The example he gave was even with a perfect attempt, one man is not physically able to just lift a car. There are things that are just outside a person's range of ability, regardless.

So neither instance of arguing against the rules was really on the DM. The rule with spells has been a house rule for at least a couple years now, for any campaign he DM's, and as for the second, it wasn't the idea of taking a 20 that was a problem, so much as the belief a 20 meant automatic success.

EDIT: And regarding the terms veteran and new, I realize others probably have been playing longer, it's just a way to distinguish the players with experience in our group, from the first timers.

That's not DM overriding rules either. That's just him being wrong about the rules. Nat 20/1s only apply to certain things. Thinking they apply to everything is just incorrect.

If someone wants to look up a rule...fantastic. But in a situation where he's taking 20, it shouldn't be in combat or anything, and his doing so shouldn't force others to wait/stop playing.

I realize this may seem nitpicky, but neither of those examples given should have the effect of "slowing his turn to a crawl", seeing that one is clearly out of init order, and the other isn't even on his turn, and shouldn't impact his actions in the slightest.

[Draig]

The D20 strength incident (taking 20) was prior to battle starting. He delayed the others preparedness by argying this with me. Then on HIS turn in combat we had to wait 10 minutes while he read up combat actions n refused to tell me, the DM, what he was looking up

[Darth_Versity]

The D20 strength incident (taking 20) was prior to battle starting. He delayed the others preparedness by argying this with me. Then on HIS turn in combat we had to wait 10 minutes while he read up combat actions n refused to tell me, the DM, what he was looking up

We have a simple houserule you might want to employ. You have 1 minute from when your turn starts. If you still dont know what you want to do, you lose your turn. You may want to incorporate it.

[Anderlith]

We have a simple houserule you might want to employ. You have 1 minute from when your turn starts. If you still dont know what you want to do, you lose your turn. You may want to incorporate it.

This is generous. In my games we have an unwritten rule that, if we think you are taking too long to do something we will count to six, if you can't tell us what you're doing then you get skipped. A round of D&D lasts 6 rounds, & you can usually talk faster than perform. Also you had everyone else's turn to wait through to plan your's. This does not mean that everyone only has 6 seconds to say what they are doing. This is just what we do when someone has started to waste time, like asking what everyone else just got done doing.

[missmvicious]

We use the 60 second rule as well, because we often play with inexperienced players or people who have to PHBs.

We have standardized house rules to streamline gameplay:

Before game (the 5 minute rules):
You have five minutes to get situated. That means, smoke your cigarette, get your snacks and drinks, get out your character sheet and dice, sit down, settle in, and get off the phone.

DM reads the recap...

You now have five more minutes to prepare spells (if any) discuss battle strategy and in game agendas, and set up a default marching order to present to the DM.

Game starts.

In Game - 60 and 6:
During initiative, you have 60 seconds to make an action/move, or hold action or ready action, or your character has hesitated (shocked by the horrors of bloody combat) and has lost their turn.

If you have something to say to another PC during initiative, it is considered in-game and you have 6 seconds to say it. Once those 6 seconds are used up, you can't talk to another PC until it's your turn in the initiative.

These can sound a bit militaristic at first, but it really amps up the tension during combat when you don't have time to say exactly what you wanted to say, and the 5 minute rules keep people from milling about, knocking over miniatures and shouting to the rest of us, "Anyone else want a beer?" while we're trying to stay in character. Plus the communication in the 5 minute rule really congeals the team. Because they know each other's plans for that session, they are much more cooperative with each other in game.