[3.5] Getting into Unseen Seer without lost CL?

[deuxhero]

The skill requirements are tricky

Hide 8, Search 8, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 4, Spot 4

Spellcraft is in class anyways, the diviner variant in UA replaces your familar with Sense Motives as a class skill (and smexy spell focus that stacks with spell focus) and spot is only 4 ranks (easily able to be taken cross class). Hide and Search are the bigger issues, as at 8 ranks you don't qualify until late in the game.

Any feats or PRCs that can get them as class skills without a casting hit?

[Tokuhara]

The skill requirements are tricky

Hide 8, Search 8, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 4, Spot 4

Spellcraft is in class anyways, the diviner variant in UA replaces your familar with Sense Motives as a class skill (and smexy spell focus that stacks with spell focus) and spot is only 4 ranks (easily able to be taken cross class). Hide and Search are the bigger issues, as at 8 ranks you don't qualify until late in the game.

Any feats or PRCs that can get them as class skills without a casting hit?

If I remember correctly, a spellthief/sorcerer can get in nearly scot-free.

Otherwise, Thug could do what you need.

In a pinch, Adaptive Learning will cover your butt.

[deuxhero]

Thug and Spell thief lose a level of Wizard.

Details and book on Adaptive Learning?

[Tokuhara]

Thug and Spell thief lose a level of Wizard.

Details and book on Adaptive Learning?

Races of Destiny:

The feat requires you to have the Human Subtype (Human, Illumian, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Deep Imaskari, Anything Human-Born), but lets you buy cross-class skills for 1 to 1, not 2 for 1

[sreservoir]

martial study (any shadow hand), dragontouched, and a draconic heritage should work. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0)

aereni focus if you're an elf, or skill knowledge if allowed, and they you can just take a shadow hand maneuver. search is kind of hard to get.

alternatively, early entry (you can enter by 2nd not too difficult, and by 4th almost trivially; you're doing something wrong if you can't enter by 6th/7th, but that's not early) ruathar, which covers you perfectly. plus, good ref save.

[Psyren]

Ruathar

We have a winner. RotW pg. 122, has all the skills you want without losing CL.

[Lateral]

alternatively, early entry (you can enter by 2nd not too difficult, and by 4th almost trivially; you're doing something wrong if you can't enter by 6th/7th, but that's not early) ruathar, which covers you perfectly. plus, good ref save.

How the hell are you entering before 5th level? You have to be at least 5th level to get 8 skill ranks in anything.

Oh, wait, you meant early into Ruathar.

[deuxhero]

Races of Destiny:

The feat requires you to have the Human Subtype (Human, Illumian, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Deep Imaskari, Anything Human-Born), but lets you buy cross-class skills for 1 to 1, not 2 for 1

Oh that feat. Doesn't it only let you buy 1/1, not raise max ranks?

What's Ruathar requirements?

[dextercorvia]

martial study (any shadow hand), dragontouched, and a draconic heritage should work. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0)

aereni focus if you're an elf, or skill knowledge if allowed, and they you can just take a shadow hand maneuver. search is kind of hard to get.

alternatively, early entry (you can enter by 2nd not too difficult, and by 4th almost trivially; you're doing something wrong if you can't enter by 6th/7th, but that's not early) ruathar, which covers you perfectly. plus, good ref save.

Trading your 5th level bonus feat for the Kobold domain granted ability is more efficient than dragontouched+draconic heritage, and it nets you Trapfinding. Alternatively, you can grab it with the Planar Touchstone feat.


Oh that feat. Doesn't it only let you buy 1/1, not raise max ranks?

What's Ruathar requirements?

9 ranks in any skill, or able to cast 3rd level spells, or BAB+6

[Eldariel]

You could also just take a feat/ACF or two to max out the necessary skills. What's your base chassis? Beguiler obviously has them all by default but Wizard would have to work a bit harder. Peruse this page (http://web.archive.org/web/20080416123221/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=749560) for various ways to gain new skills (though yeah, Ruathar solves your problems too).

[Randomguy]

Have you considered Beguiler?

[gallagher]

spellthief dip with master spellthief, IIRC, lets your caster level equal your total spell granting levels

[Amphetryon]

Oh that feat. Doesn't it only let you buy 1/1, not raise max ranks?

What's Ruathar requirements?
You're correct on max ranks.

Ruathar requires EITHER 9 ranks in a skill, OR a BAB easily obtainable by 6th level, OR a casting requirement easily obtainable by 6th level, in addition to a hilariously vague fluff requirement. Failing to qualify for Ruathar by level 8 or sooner requires either deliberate intent, or something going horribly wrong with your build.

EDIT: swordsages, everywhere!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

spellthief dip with master spellthief, IIRC, lets your caster level equal your total spell granting levels

That's only for caster level, not your effective level for spellcasting ability. He'd still lose a level of spellcasting for determining spells per day and level of spells available. He may as well multiclass into anything and take Practiced Spellcaster, it wouldn't be any different.


I'll agree that Ruathar in Races of the Wild is the best solution.

[deuxhero]

Have you considered Beguiler?

Mostly a theoretical build over something to actually use.

[gorfnab]

Spellthief (Trickster Variant Dragon #353) 6/ Ruathar 3/ Unseen Seer 1/ Spellsinger 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Unseen Seer 9
Requires the feat Apprentice: Entertainer (DMGII). Take the Master Spellthief feat for some interesting CL options.

[deuxhero]

Note by CL lost I mean "thou shalt not lose caster levels" CL, not the kind that practiced spellcaster/master spell thief fix.

[Andion Isurand]

Search is a class skill for the elven wizard substitution levels.

UA's variant combat wizard can net you Martial Study instead of Scribe Scroll

Guerrilla Scout feat (HoB) can let you buy cross class Spot (and Listen) ranks 1 for 1. (while also netting you a +1 to initiative)

[Elric VIII]

The Sky domain from RotW adds spot to your class skills, Wizard 5 can trade his 5th level feat for this.

[dextercorvia]

Note by CL lost I mean "thou shalt not lose caster levels" CL, not the kind that practiced spellcaster/master spell thief fix.

I usually like to refer to those as casting levels to reduce confusion. One of these days I'm going to finish that CL terminology miniguide.

[Cog]

Note that if you come into Unseen Seer without any lost spellcaster levels, you're probably coming in without precision damage that the class's bonus can stack onto (the exception being gofnab's variant Spellthief).

[dextercorvia]

Note that if you come into Unseen Seer without any lost spellcaster levels, you're probably coming in without precision damage that the class's bonus can stack onto (the exception being gofnab's variant Spellthief).

The other exception I can think of is if you ignore the IL requirement for Assassin's Stance.

[Amphetryon]

The other exception I can think of is if you ignore the IL requirement for Assassin's Stance.

I thought about that, too. Assassin's Stance isn't a "class's bonus," though, so is slightly shakier ground for Unseen Seer's stacking ability.

[dextercorvia]

I thought about that, too. Assassin's Stance isn't a "class's bonus," though, so is slightly shakier ground for Unseen Seer's stacking ability.


At 1st level, the extra damage you deal with your sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike ability increases by ld6.

I don't see 'class bonus' mentioned anywhere.

[Darrin]

I thought about that, too. Assassin's Stance isn't a "class's bonus," though, so is slightly shakier ground for Unseen Seer's stacking ability.

Assassin's Stance can get you into Arcane Trickster (which does not mention where the sneak attack has to come from), take two levels of that before you go into Unseen Seer, and then Unseen Seer can advance Arcane Trickster's sneak attack.

[Elric VIII]

Note that if you come into Unseen Seer without any lost spellcaster levels, you're probably coming in without precision damage that the class's bonus can stack onto (the exception being gofnab's variant Spellthief).

It says it increases your bonus damage. Would you be able to argue that it increases your current damage from 0d6?

Also, Forestlord Elf always has Hide as a class skill and the Elf Wizard sub levels grant you Search for levels 1, 3, and 5.

[Amphetryon]

It says it increases your bonus damage. Would you be able to argue that it increases your current damage from 0d6?

If you're reasonably adept at dodging flying dice and books, you could argue that. :smalltongue:

[Claudius Maximus]

By RAW it's wasted unless you actually have dice of your own for them to stack with.

I played a character like this recently, and the DM allowed me to stack the bonus dice with those granted by Hunter's Eye, Assassin's Stance and other such sources. They weren't around otherwise. I think that's a reasonable approach.

[Big Fau]

Wizard 5/Master Specialist 4/Keeper of the Cerulean Seal 3/Unseen Seer 8

Variants used: Martial Wizard (replacing Scribe Scroll and your 5th level bonus feat for Martial Study and Martial Stance for any Shadow Hand maneuver and Assassin's Stance, respectively). You need to stagger Wizard, Master Specialist, and Keeper until you hit Wizard 5 at 10th level (giving you an IL of 5, enough for Assassin's Stance).

You even get the Sneak Attack benefits of Unseen Seer.

[sreservoir]

there's a halfling rogue sub which explicitly gives SA +0d6; I think it's also RotW. there is, thus, implicit evidence that no SA isn't the same as SA +0d6.