help with a Skullcrusher build

[leegi0n]

Hey guys,

I would just like a bit of advice for a Skullcrusher Ogre (MM3) build setup. I'm running a homebrew campaign right now and want to integrate a reoccuring tribe of SkullCrusher Ogres (including a few Ogre Mages) that would pop up now and again as part of the bigger story.

I'm thinking that a Barbarian/Frenzied Berzerker setup would be good. Maybe some Monk Levels? I want them to be decent challenge...at least a couple challenge ratings higher. I essentially want to create a "stock" sheet that I can modify as the characters get stronger. Starting level would be around 7.

Any progression advice? Feat advice, etc.? spiked armor?

please advise and thanks in advance.

[nyarlathotep]

Skullcrusher Ogre Rager(Spirit Lion totem Barbarian 1/Frenzied Berserker 3)
Large Giant
Hit Dice: 8d8+4d12+36 (98 hp) (122 with rage)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. in spiked half-plate (6 squares); base 40 ft.
Armor Class: 20 (–1 size, +2 natural, +7 spiked half-plate, +2 spiked heavy shield), touch 9, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+26
Attack: Greatsword +18 (2d6+12) or while raging, frenzying, and power attacking Greatsword +18 (2d6+27)
Full Attack: Greatsword +18/+13/+8 (2d6+12) or while raging, frenzying, and power attacking Greatsword +18/+18/+13/+8 (2d6+27) or if charging Greatsword +20+20/+15/+10 (2d6+32)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Rock throwing, pounce, rage 1/day, frenzy 2/day, supreme cleave
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +14(+16 with rage), Ref +3, Will +3
Abilities: Str 26 (36 with rage and frenzy), Dex 11, Con 17(21 with rage), Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 9
Skills: Really don't matter for mooks
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Intimidating Rage, Destructive Rage, Leap Attack, Diehard*
Environment: Warm hills
Organization: Gang (2-3 + 1 tactician and 1 shaman)
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral evil

Greatswords can easily be swapped with any other two handed weapon for flavor and variety.

Skullcrusher Ogre Tactician(Wolf totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 2)
Large Giant
Hit Dice: 8d8+2d12+2d10+36 (96 hp) (110 with rage)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. in spiked half-plate (6 squares); base 40 ft.
Armor Class: 20 (–1 size, +2 natural, +7 spiked half-plate, +2 spiked heavy shield), touch 9, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+26
Attack: Guisarme +18 (2d6+12) or while raging and power attacking Guisarme +18 (2d6+18)
Full Attack: Guisarme +18/+13/+8 (2d6+12) or while raging and power attacking Cuisarme +18/+13/+8 (2d6+18)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (15ft reach with guisarme)
Special Attacks: Rock throwing, rage 1/day, frenzy 2/day
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +15(+17 while raging), Ref +2, Will +2
Abilities: Str 26 (30 with rage), Dex 11, Con 17(21 with rage), Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 9
Skills: Really don't matter for mooks
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Trip*, Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Knock-Down, Endurance
Environment: Warm hills
Organization: Gang (1 + 2-3 ragers and 1 shaman)
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral evil

Tacticians strike enemies that are moving to engaging even charging ones (thanks to hold the line) by threatening a huge area with their reach weapon. If they deal more than 10 damage (they will) get a free trip attempt (+16(+18 while raging) strength check versus the PC's strength or dex check) thanks to knock-down. This makes the prone enemies easy targets for the tactician's rager allies who can power attack further (-5 more to hit for +10 more damage or +15 if charging).

For advancement Rager just get more levels of Frenzied Berserker and the Tacticians take levels in horizon walker.

[leegi0n]

Thanks. Where do I find the totem setups (lion, wolf, etc)?

[The Underlord]

Spirit totems are in complete champion and normal totems are in unearthed arcana and here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarianVariantTotemB arbarian)

[leegi0n]

Would this be as functional with Orcs, for example?

[Dusk Eclipse]

You would need to add more base class levels to Orcs as their HD rely on their classes; but yeah they can work too.

I also would swap endurance in the Ogre Tactician build for something else to be honest, perhaps EXP Spiked chain? Or maybe quick recovery (LoM) so they aren't hosed down the first time they fail a save.

[nyarlathotep]

You would need to add more base class levels to Orcs as their HD rely on their classes; but yeah they can work too.

I also would swap endurance in the Ogre Tactician build for something else to be honest, perhaps EXP Spiked chain? Or maybe quick recovery (LoM) so they aren't hosed down the first time they fail a save.

I put in endurance so they could transition directly into horizon walker to be honest.

Orcs would be significantly less effect trippers thanks to their lack of reach and smaller size category, practically necessitating a spiked chain which I personally dislike because of how silly it seems. Also the comment about needing far more levels applies.

[leegi0n]

nyarlathotep - how do they get away with so many attacks at level 4? How did you calculate HP?

[nyarlathotep]

Their giant hitdice give them higher base attack bonus and BAB is what determines number of attacks not level. HP is calculated by taking half of each hit die and adding .5 to it so d4s give 2.5 hp, d8s give 4.5 etc, and adding con mod at each level of course.

[leegi0n]

Their giant hitdice give them higher base attack bonus and BAB is what determines number of attacks not level. HP is calculated by taking half of each hit die and adding .5 to it so d4s give 2.5 hp, d8s give 4.5 etc, and adding con mod at each level of course.

So, when progressing the BAB with these characters, I follow which guide? Ogre? PrC?

[leegi0n]

what is their BAB per level? I can't find the chart....

[nyarlathotep]

They'd just gain BAB as any normal character would from class level (fighter types getting 1 per level rogues getting 3/4 per level etc). The giant hit dice gives 3/4 BAB but they already have all of the giatn hit dice they will ever get

[leegi0n]

They'd just gain BAB as any normal character would from class level (fighter types getting 1 per level rogues getting 3/4 per level etc). The giant hit dice gives 3/4 BAB but they already have all of the giatn hit dice they will ever get

Nyarlathotep - Just wanted to say thank you for your advice. I used it to create some good builds. I've been DM'ing for about 15 years and gaming for almost 20. More often than not, I focus on the story MUCH more than the technicalities of the game and thusly, I am unfamiliar with so much of the undercurrent "build" system. Your help is much appreciated.

My next build question is this: I need someone to lead this army of skullcrushers. I want to integrate a necromancer or three to travel with these troops. Obviously, the necros would be raising the ogres as they fall, in addition to whatever else they have up their sleeve. What's a formula for a frightening undead controlling necro? Dread? Palemaster? build ideas?

Also, what do you suggest for a General (or leader of sorts) for these Ogres?

[nyarlathotep]

You'd want dread necro 8 I think to change control cap to (2+cha mod)*level instead of 4*level. Then you'd have to find some way to get animate dead as a spell-like ability to avoid material components either by as the DM altering the ogre mage's basic spell-like abilities (because they'd be mostly useless as is) or entering a prestige class like archmage or lord of the dead (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x).

You use animate dead to make some really high hitdice skeleton or zombie bodyguard (usually dragons as they can exceed the hitdice cap or zombie hydras). Command undead and rebuke is used to control undead that can animate or create their own undead (like Atropals) or create spawn (like wights and wraiths) to build up the bulk of your army.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

what is their BAB per level? I can't find the chart....

They have Giant Hit Dice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#giantType), so their current stats without any class levels would use that progression for BAB, base saves, skill points, and HP. Any class levels they gain later would be like multiclassing into that class, just like a character multiclassing between two regular classes.

[leegi0n]

You'd want dread necro 8 I think to change control cap to (2+cha mod)*level instead of 4*level. Then you'd have to find some way to get animate dead as a spell-like ability to avoid material components either by as the DM altering the ogre mage's basic spell-like abilities (because they'd be mostly useless as is) or entering a prestige class like archmage or lord of the dead (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x).

You use animate dead to make some really high hitdice skeleton or zombie bodyguard (usually dragons as they can exceed the hitdice cap or zombie hydras). Command undead and rebuke is used to control undead that can animate or create their own undead (like Atropals) or create spawn (like wights and wraiths) to build up the bulk of your army.

Would you be so kind as to show me an example build for this, like you did with the ogres?

[nyarlathotep]

Few things to this: I don't know what level you want for this so I'm just going to place this as level 13 assuming his army will mostly be CR 8 skullcrushers if not you can use this as a lieutenant and just scale up the big fell. Second ogre-mages are laughably bad for their hitdice so I took the liberty of reCRing it and changing its spell-like abilities. Third just assume that spell-like ability animate cap and spell animate cap are the same thing and stack to avoid extra bookkeeping. Fourth this dude is given an elite array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Fifth maxed out hp are included if he is to serve as a big boss. Sixth equipment is not included as I have no idea how much loot you like to give your players


Ogre Necromancer King
Size/Type: Large Giant (10 dread necromancer)
Hit Dice: 5d8 +10d6+75 (132 hp) (max 175 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +5 natural, +4 chain shirt -1 flaw), touch 8, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+21
Attack: Greatsword +16 melee (3d6+6/19-20) or longbow +13 ranged (2d6/×3)
Full Attack: Greatsword +16/+7 melee (3d6+6/19-20) or longbow +13 ranged (2d6/×3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, Spells (8/8/7/6/4 CL 14), Charnel Touch (1d8+2), Negative energy burst (10d4) 2/day, Fear Aura (DC 21), Scabrous Touch 1/day
Special Qualities: Change shape, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, regeneration 5, spell resistance 29, DR 4/bludgeoning and magic, Mental Bastion, Undead Mastery, Light Fortification
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +5, Will +12
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 22
Skills: Concentration +23, Listen +22, Spellcraft +20, Spot +22, Knowledge (the planes) +10, Ride +13
Feats: Tomb-tainted soul, Spell-focus Necromancy*, Fell-drain, Rapid Metamagice, Versatile Spellcaster, Practiced Spellcaster, Mastery of the Dead
Environment: Cold hills
Organization: Army (1 + Zombie Dragon Mount + familiar + 8-48 Ogre Ragers + 4-24 ogre tacticians + 4-24 shamans + as many wights as there are victims to animate)
Challenge Rating: 13
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil

*from flaw Vulnerable seemed like an arrogant necromancer guy would be bad at personal defense

Spell-Like Abilities
At will—darkness, invisibility, scorching ray; 3/day— dominate person (DC 21), animate dead, gaseous form, Deep Slumber(DC 19). Caster level 15th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Flight (Su)

An ogre mage can cease or resume flight as a free action. While using gaseous form it can fly at its normal speed and has perfect maneuverability.

Change Shape (Su)
An ogre mage can assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid or giant.

Regeneration (Ex)
Fire and acid deal normal damage to an ogre mage.

Advance Learning
Add the following spells to Necromancer's spell-list: Kelgor's Grave Mist, Animate Dread Warrior

Familiar
A slaymate (not techincally a valid familiar option but badguys can bend the rules a bit)


Here are the basic tactics. The Ogre King should open up all combats by casts 2 Fell Drain Kelgor's Grave Mist (1 in a surprise round if possible), this will drop everyone not immune to fatigue all the way to exhausted and make them exceedingly easy targets(due to how fatigue stacks and don't forget the 2d6 COLD DAMAGE). Round 3 he should cast Evard's Black Tentacles and all rounds after that either look for someone with low saves to hit with a death effect spell (slay living) or be shooting enervations.

Also if he is ever swarmed by low hitdice mooks he should sacrifice 2 of his 5th level spells to cast circle of death to instantly kill them. Now the reason for circle of death and slay living is that thanks to Mastery of the Dead the Ogre king can as a free action turn anyone he kills with a death effect into a ghost for a number of rounds each to his caster level (14) thus he is able to turn a zerg rush into free minions.

Also as long as his slaymate familiar is nearby he should cast most necromancy spell that deal damage as the fell drained version because the slaymate reduces its metamagic cost to one.

The King's control cap for animated skeletons and zombie is 150 30 of which is taken up by his mount and his command cap is 112 used to control spawn creating wights in a pyramid type deal (either that of just negotiating with them). Animate Dread warrior is only there to bring back a particularly useful underling and is found in Unapproachable East (he would cast it sparingly due to its xp cost).

also here are the dragons stats tactics for it are stupidly simple as it just breaths when people crowd it and otherwise fullattacks whenever it can.

Edit: One last thing if the king is advanced at all his animate cap increases enough that the mount should be a Great Wyrm Zombie dragon

Huge Undead
Hit Dice: 30d12+120 (315 hp) (max 480 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 60 ft, fly 200 ft (clumsy), swim 60 ft, burrow 30 ft
AC: 37 (-2 size, +14 natural)
Attacks: Bite +41 melee, 2 claws +36 melee, 2 wings +36 melee, tail slap +36 melee
Damage: Bite 2d8+13, claw 2d6+7, wing 1d8+7, tail slap 2d6+18
Face/Reach: 20 ft / 10 ft
Special Attacks: Breath weapon
Special Qualities: Icewalking, cold immunity, DR 15/magic or DR 5/slashing (whichever results in less damage to the dragon), blindsight, undead traits
Saves: Fort +17, Ref +17, Will +19
Abilities: Str 37, Dex 12, Con -, Int -, Wis 15, Cha 8
Skills: -
Feats: Improved Toughness (Tough is a stupid feat)
Challenge Rating: 9
Alignment: Always chaotic evil

Breath Weapon (Su): Cone of cold, 50 feet long, every 1d4 rounds; damage 5d6, Reflex half DC 28.
Icewalking (Ex): This ability works like the spider climb spell, but the surfaces must be icy. It is always in effect.
Immunities (Ex): Immune to sleep, paralysis.
Blindsight (Ex): Dragons can ascertain creatures by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibrations and other environmental clues); this dragon's range is 300 feet.

[leegi0n]

nice. very nice. Thank you.

[leegi0n]

next question: if you were to take the concept of Jarlaxle make him a challenge rating of oh....say, 20. Would you use a Rogue/Fighter build? Example? Duelist? Exotic Weapon Master? Dervish?


here's a unique challenge for you too: can you put together a svirfneblin build of a character who's personality is that of Rain Man's. He uses black powder weapons mixed with cleric style spells and lots of cool little goggles/devices, etc. I'm thinking (cleric, mystic wanderer, hexer, sage)? CR 20. Quirky. Funny, dry humor. you would never know he's a bada$$.

[leegi0n]

also, I have a bard who has stayed straight class up until 8th level. What would I need to do to make him a bada$$ by level 13? I'm not hardly familiar with this class at all, but want to integrate him.

[nyarlathotep]

As much as I would love to be stating stuff up for you all the time doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of giving you rather general builds so you can learn how they work and build your own?

Also there seems to be a mighty dangerous number of CR 20 NPCs for a campaign where the players are level 8, especially if the primary intent is to make them super cool.

[leegi0n]

As much as I would love to be stating stuff up for you all the time doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of giving you rather general builds so you can learn how they work and build your own?

Also there seems to be a mighty dangerous number of CR 20 NPCs for a campaign where the players are level 8, especially if the primary intent is to make them super cool.


These last characters I mentioned are already built. I was just curious what your take on a build would be. I don't need anyone to roll my baddies, I just like seeing other peoples ideas. These 20lvl baddies aren't all in the game, if at all. Just old/new ideas I've toyed with.

input is great, but after two decades of doing this stuff, I'm trying to break some old habits.

thanks.

[nyarlathotep]

Jarlaxle is a factotum, maybe going into Chameleon if you ignore the race requirement and the blackpowder guy I'd run as the bombwizard or gunmage archtypes from pathfinder going into abjurant champion.

Bard advice is entirely based on what you want him to do. Super cool is not a character concept that can be built for. Building and optimization is all about the verb what is being done, roleplaying is all about the adverb how it is being done; the Fonz cannot be built only played.

[leegi0n]

Jarlaxle is a factotum, maybe going into Chameleon if you ignore the race requirement and the blackpowder guy I'd run as the bombwizard or gunmage archtypes from pathfinder going into abjurant champion.

Bard advice is entirely based on what you want him to do. Super cool is not a character concept that can be built for. Building and optimization is all about the verb what is being done, roleplaying is all about the adverb how it is being done; the Fonz cannot be built only played.


cool is a figurative, overly used, underly interpreted term to represent many other words like "good" or "strong" or "nice"....it's a 90's language stigma I suppose. You never outgrow some things of your childhood.

[nyarlathotep]

I was using cool as a substitute for badass as using the $ symbol to get around the censor both makes me feel like a tool and violates the site's terms of service.

Basically though the question remains, do you want the bard to shoot lightning, cast spells better, be a mini-druid bard mix, melee fight good, what?

[leegi0n]

I was using cool as a substitute for badass as using the $ symbol to get around the censor both makes me feel like a tool and violates the site's terms of service.

Basically though the question remains, do you want the bard to shoot lightning, cast spells better, be a mini-druid bard mix, melee fight good, what?

my bad. I use the word cool a lot and assumed I had let slip with it when the the quasi-cu$$ I used was actually worse. LOL! ...not into violating forums.

Nah, I decided to go with a Bard/Sublime Chord build. Possibly slip into Dervish or Abjurant Champion. Maybe throw some dragonborn in there. Not sure yet. I guess the ultimate goal is an uber-buffer who is decent at combat too. I'm just not that familiar with the bard class because I've never played one (or run a game with a bard in the group) and since I've decided to take on the task of building myself a PC as a bard, because it is unknown to me, I'm looking for that perfect...."note".

[leegi0n]

Thanks again for your input and advice.