Demoralizing on a Mounted Charge

[Elric VIII]

Based on the Ride rules, guiding a mount with your knees does not take an action. As such, moving and attaking with a mount allows you to make a standard action attack, but leaves you with a move action.

The Fearsome armor enhancement allows you to demoralize as a move action.

So, it seems you can move on a mount, demoralize, and attack, all in one turn.



Is there a way to do this while making a charge?

Is there a way to make it work with Ride-by Attack?



Note: Dreadful Wrath is not what I'm looking for.

[Gwendol]

Unless I'm mistaken this will not work due to the charge being a full round action (even if it is actually the mount that is doing the charging).

Still, it is making good use of the move action!

[Elric VIII]

Unless I'm mistaken this will not work due to the charge being a full round action (even if it is actually the mount that is doing the charging).

Still, it is making good use of the move action!

You are correct, this is the default rule. I'm wondering if there's an item/feat that allows this.

[Gwendol]

The Cavalier or the mounted PrC's in OA allow for "mounted pounce" or full attack on a charge, which however isn't quite what you are looking for. I'd look at the various mounted PrC's if I were you to see if there might be a way around. Ask for DM lenience perhaps?

From memory:

Moonsea sky sentinel
Algalrondan griffon rider
Cavalier
Kishi charger
Battle Maiden
Halfling outrider
Ashworm dragoon

[Gwendol]

My memory failed me: the cavalier gets the full attack option if the mount moves up to its speed, and if it doesn't charge.

This doesn't impact anything of what you wanted to do, but it's good to state the correct class ability.

[Darrin]

So, it seems you can move on a mount, demoralize, and attack, all in one turn.

Is there a way to do this while making a charge?

Is there a way to make it work with Ride-by Attack?



The mounted combat rules are messed up to begin with. There's no clear indication by RAW of who actually charges and who has what actions available. The combat section says:

"If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge)."

This text is referring to the +2 attack bonus, but there's no clear indication it means you get other benefits from your mount's charge, such as damage multipliers, pounce, etc. But so far, by RAW, you can do the first item on your list:

1) Rider uses a free action to direct his mount to charge.
2) Mount uses a full round action to charge.
3) Rider still has his full complement of actions remaining, so he can use a move action to demoralize.
4) Mount arrives at target, resolves charge attack.
5) Rider can now use his standard action to make an attack.

Ride-By Attack is thoroughly eff'ed up in at least two ways, so before we can use it we have to resolve those issues. First, the feat assumes that the rider, not the mount, is using a full-round action to charge. I believe this is incorrect. In order for the rider to charge, he has to be able to move 10' on his own, and I feel being mounted precludes that (others may disagree). So if you reword the feat so that the mount is the one who's charging, then the rider still has his full complement of actions, and can demoralize/standard attack as normal. The other problem with Ride-By Attack is the charging rules require your mount to charge to the closest square to the target, which usually prevents the mount from moving in a straight line. You have to change the wording on Ride-By Attack so you charge through the nearest square that allows the rider to attack and still continue moving in a straight line. So... let me take a stab at this:

RIDE-BY ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and your mount uses the charge action, you may direct your mount to move to the nearest square that allows you to attack your opponent and continue moving in a straight line. You can make a single melee attack from that square, gaining the normal benefits of a charge attack, and your mount may continue to move in a straight line up to double your mount's normal speed. If there is no available square to make an attack or any unavoidable obstacles in your mount's path, it can't charge. Your mount may not attack unless it ends it's movement in a square that allows it to make a melee attack. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
Special: A fighter may select Ride-By Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Two more quirks to the charging/mounted combat rules that I just discovered... did you know you could make a charge attack when you're nauseated? If you can only take move actions, you can still charge. Also, it looks like Ride-By Attack doesn't allow your mount to attack while charging... so if it ends it's movement next to another opponent, can it attack that one? Hmm.

[Gwendol]

Yup, mounted combat is seriously messed up! You've laid it out nicely, but could you please explain why the mount can't attack when using RBA? Attacking the same target as the rider, obviously.

[Gwendol]

Looking at what Skip Williams has written about it doesn't make things any clearer (sadly). In Rules of the game: All about mounts part 5 he does discuss using the RBA and SC feats. He suggests dealing RBA is to allow for a change of direction after resolving the attack (and references the FAQ). From his description of how the spirited charge feat works (only the rider benefits) it is easy to assume that the mount can in fact attack during RBA.

He also says that charging while mounted is a full round action that simply takes advantage of the mount's speed and movement rather than that of the rider (so essentially, both do a full-round action).

Doesn't resolve the way mounted charge is described, nor the other associated feats. Fly-by-attack for example has to be taken by the mount... which puts into question if RBA is still valid on a flying mount?

[Darrin]

Yup, mounted combat is seriously messed up! You've laid it out nicely, but could you please explain why the mount can't attack when using RBA? Attacking the same target as the rider, obviously.

From the Charge rules:

"Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack."

When the rider makes his attack, his mount hasn't finished moving. The text of Ride-By Attack makes no mention of when the mount can attack, so I'm assuming the charge restrictions still apply.

I can't think of any realistic reason why I'd want to allow a horse at a full gallop to stop in the middle of it's charge, make a hoof or bite attack, and then continue it's forward momentum. If the horse ended it's charge with an opponent in kicking/biting range, I'd probably allow that, but then you get into some very murky interpretations of which opponent was the original target of the charge, can you switch to a new opponent end the end of a charge, etc...


He also says that charging while mounted is a full round action that simply takes advantage of the mount's speed and movement rather than that of the rider (so essentially, both do a full-round action).


I'll have to go over those Rules of the Game articles again... but I'm not sure Skip's got a firm handle on how the rules contradict themselves. I don't buy that your mount charging locks you into charging as well. First of all, the rules for declaring a charge prevent you from doing this from horseback (you can't move 10' without dismounting), and second of all, if you want to do something other than a melee attack, such as casting a spell or a ranged attack, you can do that by the rules even when your mount is charging. Why should melee attacks be treated any different?



Doesn't resolve the way mounted charge is described, nor the other associated feats. Fly-by-attack for example has to be taken by the mount... which puts into question if RBA is still valid on a flying mount?

A flying mount can use RBA (the feat doesn't mention which movement mode to use), but it can't use it with Fly-By Attack. Charge is a full-round action, and Fly-By Attack is a move action + standard action, so the actions are incompatable.

The best way to combine Fly-By Attack with a rider is to have the rider ready a standard action with the trigger: "When my mount gets close enough for me to attack" or something similar. But then the rider doesn't get the charge bonus.

[Gwendol]

I always figured RBA was done "on the fly" with the mount running by the target and giving it a good kick/bite/gore/swipe as it is passed by.
I fully agree with you regarding mounted charge in that it makes no sense for both mount and rider to declare a charge, and that the way the rules are written it creates more issues than it solves.

[Elric VIII]

Wow, I never really realized quite how convoluted the mouted combat rules are. Thank you for the input.

I'm thinking it would be safe to say that asking my DM is the best course of action.

[Slipperychicken]

You could also make you weapn merciful (or take -4 tohit to do nonlethal) and take the Enforcer regional feat from pathfinder. It allows you a free demoralize attempt on any hit you do nonlethal damage on, and the target is shaken for rounds equal to the nonlethal damage dealt. Gets better with a high check and imperious command. Hit enemy, he cowers and can't act, repeat until he's unconscious.

[Darrin]

I'm thinking it would be safe to say that asking my DM is the best course of action.

Ride-By Attack needs to be reworded just to function at all. Part of the problem is the rules for charging were changed from 3.0 to 3.5, but the rules for mounted combat (and overrun) weren't updated as well. Grab a battle map or a sheet of grid paper, mark out where your medium-sized target is standing, and then show your DM that if your mount charges the nearest square, you *can't* continue in a straight line. And there's another headache... let's say you're charging with a lance, which is a reach weapon. Even if your DM is willing to let you pick a different square so long as they are the same distance as the "nearest square", if that square is adjacent to your medium-sized opponent, you can't attack him with a lance because you're now inside the lance's reach. Therefore, you need to change Ride-By Attack so that you charge to the "nearest square where the rider can make a melee attack", i.e., when your mount is 5' away and thus within the reach of your lance.

Once you've cleared that up, point out the problem with who is actually using a full-round action to charge. If your DM tries to lock you into "both the mount and rider must spend a full-round action", then point out that a mounted archer or spellcaster on a charging mount wouldn't need to do that. Actually, to be pedantic the rules don't actually say if you can make ranged attacks or cast spells while your mount is charging... they only mention your mount moving up to it's speed, a double-move, or running. Yet another headache the designers never bothered to fix. Anyway, assuming you can convince your DM that you still get all your actions when your mount is charging, then ask him this little head-scratcher:

"The charge rules say I have to wait before my mount gets there before I can attack... so once I tell my mount to charge (a free action), can I delay my action until after my mount goes, and then take my full attack?"

He's likely to say "No", and you can show him how much of a stand-up gentleman you are by not asking him to explain why.

[Gwendol]

Yes, about the lances reach and the mount attacking: My take is that both are possible at least if it is the mount doing the charging:

Direct the mount to charge (free action)

Mount moves toward target

Rider attacks when target in range of lance

Mount makes charge attack when target in range (typically adjacent)

Mount continues on in a different vector (since RBA otherwise doesn't function) up to double speed distance total

If the rider does the charging somehow, the mount can never attack due to the reach of the lance, unless you claim that you can attack from "within" the space of the mount and therefore have the same reach as the mount (dodgy reasoning).

[Person_Man]

This is not RAW, but my group basically just eliminates the mount's ability to take separate actions, changes the rider's movement rate to that of their mount, and basically adds the mount's attacks to the riders (using the mount's To-Hit, damage, etc). We basically treat mount's like vehicles.

Also, you could peruse the Pounce and Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) thread. It's fairly simple to add extra movement or move actions via Hustle, Travel Devotion, Knight's Move, etc. So regardless of whether you're mounted or not, you could Charge or move, make a full attack, and then take a move action to Demoralize or activate Combat Panache or Winged Warrior or draw a weapon or whatever.