Spellthief

[Little Brother]

How are they good? How do they work? I've seen them generally referred to as tier 4, but they seem just like they are wizard killers, and bad ones at that. I understand the use of Master Spellthief, but I mean the class in and of itself.

If it actually is good, how does it work and what would a build look like?

Thanks.

EDIT: How does the Trickster work? It says it gains spells like a bard, so does that mean they get 6th level spells?

[darksolitaire]

Spellthieves are not necessarily bad in high magic campaign, where they have spellcasters to steal spells from, or in party with other casters where they can lend spells from others (consider taking revivify from Cleric before a tough fight to raise him, for example). They are also versatile, getting spells, skills and sneak attack. All this leaves them in position of jack of all trades, although highly situational one.

In games where you don't fight other casters and you don't have many casters in your party, they become watered-down rogues.

Trickster simply uses Bards' spell per day and spells known. As spells are better and less situation dependent that sneak attack, they are simply better.

[Little Brother]

Spellthieves are not necessarily bad in high magic campaign, where they have spellcasters to steal spells from, or in party with other casters where they can lend spells from others (consider taking revivify from Cleric before a tough fight to raise him, for example). They are also versatile, getting spells, skills and sneak attack. All this leaves them in position of jack of all trades, although highly situational one.

In games where you don't fight other casters and you don't have many casters in your party, they become watered-down rogues.

Trickster simply uses Bards' spell per day and spells known. As spells are better and less situation dependent that sneak attack, they are simply better.In a T3 game that is fairly low magic, is just the Trickster enough to make them T3, or do they need something else?

And does the Trickster give them 6th level slots? Are the bard casting and spellthief casting separate? And, with the trickster, do they also get first level Sorc/Wiz spells at the same time as bard spells? And would Master Spellthief double your caster level?

I dunno, the wording seems confusing to me.

[Corlindale]

Their ability to borrow spells from allies is quite useful - in a team with a spontaneous caster with infinity spells per day which he never fully expends, the Spellthief might as well borrow some so the party can get twice as many powerful spells off in the first rounds of combat. So even if you don't encounter enemy casters that often, his steal spell ability can still be utilized.

He also shines if teamed with a Warlock, as he can borrow the Warlock's useful 24-hour buffs so they both have perma-flight/invisibility and the like.

[Little Brother]

Follow up question: What's a good spell list for a Trickster Spellthief? Are save-or-sucks better? Are support spells better? Are killy stuff like Power Word Pain better?

[candycorn]

Rule of thumb: If your casting DC stat is high, save or suck is decent. If it's low, stick to no save and buff.

[darksolitaire]

In a T3 game that is fairly low magic, is just the Trickster enough to make them T3, or do they need something else?


I'd say yes, as the hallmark of tier 3 is versatility. But spellthieves have nowhere near the same splatbook support then the bards, so I can very well see why others might disagree.



And does the Trickster give them 6th level slots? Are the bard casting and spellthief casting separate? And, with the trickster, do they also get first level Sorc/Wiz spells at the same time as bard spells? And would Master Spellthief double your caster level?


Trickster has exactly the same slots as bards, so up to sixth. They lose their spellthief casting and benefit from better bard casting, and have full caster level. You select your spells known as bard, and you can select them from bard spell list, and spellthief list which contains sorcerer/wizard spells of Abjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Illusion and Transmutation. This means that they have better spell selection then bard.

Hope I explained this clearly.

[Little Brother]

Rule of thumb: If your casting DC stat is high, save or suck is decent. If it's low, stick to no save and buff.
I know, I was asking which is more practical.

I'd say yes, as the hallmark of tier 3 is versatility. But spellthieves have nowhere near the same splatbook support then the bards, so I can very well see why others might disagree.So it's good, just 'cause of the spell list of bards and sorcerers.


Trickster has exactly the same slots as bards, so up to sixth. They lose their spellthief casting and benefit from better bard casting, and have full caster level. You select your spells known as bard, and you can select them from bard spell list, and spellthief list which contains sorcerer/wizard spells of Abjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Illusion and Transmutation. This means that they have better spell selection then bard.

Hope I explained this clearly.Yeah, thanks, that helps. However, I want to know if Master Spellthief doubles one's caster level like it would without the Trickster ACF?

Also, what are good spells for a Spellthief? And are there other good ACFs for them?

Thanks for the input.

[Flickerdart]

What do you actually LOSE with that ACF?

[Little Brother]

What do you actually LOSE with that ACF?2 Skill points/level, all of the roguey skills, trapfinding, and you only ever get 1d6 of sneak attack.

[hex0]

2 Skill points/level, all of the roguey skills, trapfinding, and you only ever get 1d6 of sneak attack.

Worth it. Though Im surprised it doesnt give you perform as a class skill...

[Grendus]

Where's trickster from? I can't find it.

[Little Brother]

Where's trickster from? I can't find it.

Dragon 353

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Trickster is really awesome when combined with Ultimate Magus, as Spellthief actually gains spells and forces your prepared caster level to forever be below your Spellthief caster level when using Master Spellthief.

Spellthief by itself can be hard to gauge. If the game hits 9th level, you will want that feat to go to Master Spellthief, even if you stay straight Master Spellthief, as it allows you to nab other arcane caster's juice and use it against them in armor without risk of failure.

Other than that, I'd say ask your party to throw some spell slots at you for the adventuring day. If you have a cleric, asking him for self-buff X so that you can have it for a fight may seem selfish, but it can help. In my limited experience with spellthieves, I always made it a habit to have a "wish list" from the other casters (if any) and/or to provide spells to the spellthief that he could use to greater effect than I could as a squishy wizard.

[hex0]

Also, play a Neraph (planar handbook)

Is this Spellthief Week? :smallsmile:

[Little Brother]

Also, play a Neraph (planar handbook)

Is this Spellthief Week? :smallsmile:Why Neraph? They're an outsider with +3 Nat Armor, but what else is there?

And what do you mean? Spellthief Week?

[Flickerdart]

Why Neraph? They're an outsider with +3 Nat Armor, but what else is there?

And what do you mean? Spellthief Week?
Neraphim get to treat a target as flat-footed 1/encounter, meaning that you get a free Steal Spell off without needing to worry about flanking and such.

[hex0]

Why Neraph? They're an outsider with +3 Nat Armor, but what else is there?

And what do you mean? Spellthief Week?

There are 4 threads or so about Spellthief going on right now. :smallwink:

There is also a feat that emulates the Neraphim's ability. They are an overlooked race, in my opinion.

+2 Natural Armor
Total +9 skill bonuses
Darkvision
Camouflage ability (just begging to exploit for stealing spells)
Racial familiarity (though you probably aren't going to have martial prof. unless you dip for Abjurant Champion)

...And no LA? Gravy.