Resistaince or Protection?

[Qwertystop]

If I remember right, Resist Energy: (energy type here) means you reduce all damage taken from that energy type by a specified amount each time damage is taken, while Protection from (energy type here) negates a specified amount of the damage you take between all the times you take damage from that energy type. Which is better?

[Basket Burner]

Resistance.

[Lapak]

Resistance.
The sole exception being when you know for a fact that you're going to encounter something with a large, one-shot energy attack.

[Qwertystop]

That's what I was thinking, but I saw that Protection was higher level, so I wasn't sure.

[Basket Burner]

The sole exception being when you know for a fact that you're going to encounter something with a large, one-shot energy attack.

Nope.

If you have a level appropriate resistance then you will greatly reduce or outright negate the damage from any level appropriate blasting spell that isn't being optimized.

For example, level 7: 7d6 averages 24.5. That means you take 4.5 if you fail the save, which is nothing. Even if it got max damage, you take 22 or 1, which is still nothing.

If it is being optimized, they're going to:

1: Not use elemental spells.
2: Use some means of bypassing protections.
3: Do so much damage it doesn't even matter.

So Protection is really not that helpful. Either you use Resist and stop them outright, or neither would really help.

[Lapak]

Nope.
*snip*My exception was
when you know for a fact that you're going to encounter something with a large, one-shot energy attack.You're describing cases that aren't that (non-large energy attacks on the one hand; large non-energy attacks on the other.)

So you didn't actually address the single, extremely specific exception that I was pointing out. You're quite right that it won't come up often, but that doesn't make it untrue.

[dextercorvia]

Level 7 is kind of cherry picked, however. At level 10 you have the same resistance, but the damage is up to 10d6 (unoptimized). At level 20, 30 points of resistance vs. expected damage of 70, isn't even cutting it by half. I still think Resistance is the better bet overall -- mainly because of the level cap on Protection.

[Yora]

It really depends on what you expect to be facing. Lots of minor and medium attacks over a long time or really heavy damage in a single encounter.

[Basket Burner]

My exception was You're describing cases that aren't that (non-large energy attacks on the one hand; large non-energy attacks on the other.)

So you didn't actually address the single, extremely specific exception that I was pointing out. You're quite right that it won't come up often, but that doesn't make it untrue.

My point was that anyone that was going to optimize blasting was going to do so in a way that bypasses any hypothetical Protection spell either by being non elemental damage (Force, for example), bypassing that protection (Searing Spell), or just brute forcing it by doing so much damage that you will die anyways. It's a catch 22. Anyone smart enough to boost up blasting heavily before using it will move to counteract protections as a matter of course.


Level 7 is kind of cherry picked, however. At level 10 you have the same resistance, but the damage is up to 10d6 (unoptimized). At level 20, 30 points of resistance vs. expected damage of 70, isn't even cutting it by half. I still think Resistance is the better bet overall -- mainly because of the level cap on Protection.

At which point you take 15 or 0, which is still nothing. At 11 you take 8.5 or 0. At 20 you take 40 or 5. Still nothing in any and all cases. I picked 7 because it was the first level after Fireball that Energy Resistance improves at but even if you pick one of the worst examples it's still not doing anything to you.

[Lapak]

My point was that anyone that was going to optimize blasting was going to do so in a way that bypasses any hypothetical Protection spell either by being non elemental damage (Force, for example), bypassing that protection (Searing Spell), or just brute forcing it by doing so much damage that you will die anyways. It's a catch 22. Anyone smart enough to boost up blasting heavily before using it will move to counteract protections as a matter of course.... It's not always about optimized casters, particularly in ordinary play. I was thinking of monstrous opponents in a non-max-optimization setting. To take some specific examples, take the Balor's 1/day Firestorm SLA; a caster might not want to take the 30 average damage that would punch through a Resist Fire spell. Take a Frost Worm, with its 1/hour 15d6 cold breath weapon and another 12d6 damage in its Death Throes; those would be substantially reduced by Resist Energy but both would punch through, and considering there's another 8d6 coming your way in piercing damage from the Death Throes I'd rather be taking no cold damage along the way.

EDIT: I'm not saying that Resist Energy isn't superior in almost all circumstances - it is - I'm just saying that there are specific corner cases where Protection can be more helpful if you know what you're up against in advance.

[Douglas]

For example, consider a red dragon with Maximize Breath. That's a very simple small investment for something PCs can reasonably be expected to fight, and it will easily overpower Resist Energy by a sizable margin on a failed save.

Let's say the dragon is of CR equal to party level. At level 7, that's a Young dragon dishing out 60 fire damage (save for half) vs 20 fire resist. 40 or 10 damage. Level 10 has a Juvenile sending 80 damage at you, for 60 or 20 after resistance. The next step up is a Young Adult breathing at a level 13 party for 100 damage vs 30 fire resist. That's 70 or 20 after resist, and it only goes up from there.

Now if you have the dragon as a boss encounter, as dragons quite often feature, it will typically be a dragon with a CR 2 to 4 higher than party level. That boosts all the damage numbers above by 10 or 20 depending on the save. That's pretty substantial damage, and more than enough to justify Protection From Energy if you have advance warning.

[Basket Burner]

... It's not always about optimized casters, particularly in ordinary play. I was thinking of monstrous opponents in a non-max-optimization setting. To take some specific examples, take the Balor's 1/day Firestorm SLA; a caster might not want to take the 30 average damage that would punch through a Resist Fire spell. Take a Frost Worm, with its 1/hour 15d6 cold breath weapon and another 12d6 damage in its Death Throes; those would be substantially reduced by Resist Energy but both would punch through, and considering there's another 8d6 coming your way in piercing damage from the Death Throes I'd rather be taking no cold damage along the way.

At level 20, 30 damage is both nothing, and markedly favorable to the alternatives.


At will— blasphemy (DC 25), dominate monster (DC 27), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), insanity (DC 25), power word stun, telekinesis (DC 23), unholy aura (DC 26); 1/day—fire storm (DC 26), implosion (DC 27). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

If he casts any of the bolded spells, he will be better off. And since that is every single other spell he has except for his always on buff and his escape spell...

Against the Frost Worm, first of all the flying caster has no business getting near a groundbound enemy, but if he somehow does 12d6 damage at level 12 is exactly what a blasting spell would do. Take 30 off it and it's 12 or 0. That leaves just 28 or 14 piercing, which is nothing. Worst case you take 42, which you just walk off with 4 wand charges.


EDIT: I'm not saying that Resist Energy isn't superior in almost all circumstances - it is - I'm just saying that there are specific corner cases where Protection can be more helpful if you know what you're up against in advance.

In that case you are flying. The Frost Worm never touches you. You do whatever you want to it until it dies or runs away.

As for dragons with Maximize Breath, they do that once, don't kill anyone, and then can't breathe again until long after the fight is over. Which means that it hardly matters. That, and since dragons are color coded for your convenience any of them that do go for a Maximize breath are going to go for an atypical element or make themselves seem to be a different type of dragon than they actually are. In both cases, they're using something that you didn't prepare for. In both cases, your ability to win that fight will depend on your ability to one round it before it one rounds you.

[Douglas]

As for dragons with Maximize Breath, they do that once, don't kill anyone, and then can't breathe again until long after the fight is over. Which means that it hardly matters.
Sure, it's not going to kill anyone (probably) and it's only once per typical battle, but it's a big enough single burst that the difference between Resist and Protection does matter significantly and in Protection's favor. The fact that it only happens once just tips it even further in favor of Protection From Energy.


That, and since dragons are color coded for your convenience any of them that do go for a Maximize breath are going to go for an atypical element or make themselves seem to be a different type of dragon than they actually are. In both cases, they're using something that you didn't prepare for. In both cases, your ability to win that fight will depend on your ability to one round it before it one rounds you.
You are assuming a much higher level of optimization than is typical.

[Basket Burner]

Sure, it's not going to kill anyone (probably) and it's only once per typical battle, but it's a big enough single burst that the difference between Resist and Protection does matter significantly and in Protection's favor. The fact that it only happens once just tips it even further in favor of Protection From Energy.


You are assuming a much higher level of optimization than is typical.

I am assuming that any dragon smart enough to increase its breath damage so that the one breath it does get counts for more will not make its attack of the obvious element. At that point neither matter. And Energy Substitution and 1st level spells are both more common and accessible than Maximize Breath. And that means that it can potentially one shot people.

[Lapak]

At level 20, 30 damage is both nothing, and markedly favorable to the alternatives.

If he casts any of the bolded spells, he will be better off. And since that is every single other spell he has except for his always on buff and his escape spell...

*Against the Frost Worm*Both of your arguments have problems if the monster lasts more than one round. To take an example from each: if the Balor chooses Firestorm and you take 30, no, it's not going to kill a level-appropriate foe. It might drop him into territory where the followup Power Word Stun is a lot more of an issue, though.

With the Frost Worm, unless it died on round 1, there's a good chance it hit you with its 15d6 breath weapon before dying. That's turned your worst case with Resistance into about 64 points of damage, which is not something that a level-appropriate d4 caster can ignore unless they made a significant investment in hit points. Unless they have temp HP or a +3 CON modifier, in fact, it will kill them outright if they have even slightly sub-average HP, where Protection would have kept them alive.

In that case you are flying. The Frost Worm never touches you. You do whatever you want to it until it dies or runs away.Unless the burrowing creature is encountered in a setting with a ceiling. Which seems pretty possible to me.


As for dragons with Maximize Breath, they do that once, don't kill anyone, and then can't breathe again until long after the fight is over. Which means that it hardly matters. That, and since dragons are color coded for your convenience any of them that do go for a Maximize breath are going to go for an atypical element or make themselves seem to be a different type of dragon than they actually are. In both cases, they're using something that you didn't prepare for. In both cases, your ability to win that fight will depend on your ability to one round it before it one rounds you.Actually, a young adult red hitting a level 13 d4-caster who has Resistance up has a pretty good shot at killing him; the caster has to make a Reflex DC 24 or take 70 - and again, that's enough to one-shot the caster unless he's got extra hit points or a decent CON.

He might! He probably would! But even if he does that puts him down into seriously dangerous territory.

[Basket Burner]

Both of your arguments have problems if the monster lasts more than one round. To take an example from each: if the Balor chooses Firestorm and you take 30, no, it's not going to kill a level-appropriate foe. It might drop him into territory where the followup Power Word Stun is a lot more of an issue, though.

It's level 20. So let's see... Wizard's HP is slightly higher than 150, but he is also immune to Stun. Taking the Rogue out won't really hinder them, and the others have more than 180.

That and if it did want to do some damage to set up a PW: Stun, here is what it does:

Summons another Balor.
While the other Balor is chain dazing the party, use Telekinesis to do far more damage.
Skip the PW: Stun, since you are chain dazing them.


With the Frost Worm, unless it died on round 1, there's a good chance it hit you with its 15d6 breath weapon before dying. That's turned your worst case with Resistance into about 64 points of damage, which is not something that a level-appropriate d4 caster can ignore unless they made a significant investment in hit points. Unless they have temp HP or a +3 CON modifier, in fact, it will kill them outright if they have even slightly sub-average HP, where Protection would have kept them alive.
Unless the burrowing creature is encountered in a setting with a ceiling. Which seems pretty possible to me.

At level 12? 79 HP, so still standing and 6 charges later it is as if it never happened. So the hypothetical Wizard who is getting within 30 feet of this thing despite having absolutely no reason to do so still survives easily. To be taken out by this, the Wizard would have to be level 8, and getting far too close to the thing. At which point you have proved that being stupid in a level + 4 fight can be fatal. But it is a boss fight, so what do you expect? I do find it interesting though you think that the Wizard, or anyone at this level would have less than a +3 CON modifier. Yes, poorly made characters die easily, but that doesn't mean anything either.


Actually, a young adult red hitting a level 13 d4-caster who has Resistance up has a pretty good shot at killing him; the caster has to make a Reflex DC 24 or take 70 - and again, that's enough to one-shot the caster unless he's got extra hit points or a decent CON.

He might! He probably would! But even if he does that puts him down into seriously dangerous territory.

70 (or 20) damage vs 86 HP. Guaranteed survival. Not to mention that the save DC itself is at or close to the point where any non 1 is a success.

[Lapak]

70 (or 20) damage vs 86 HP. Guaranteed survival. Not to mention that the save DC itself is at or close to the point where any non 1 is a success. 4 + (2.5*12) = 34 hit points from class levels, leaving 52 from CON. You're assuming an 18 CON for a 13th level caster.

Is that entirely possible? Yes. Is it always the case, at all tables? No. If the wizard is an elf, or invested in another ability (either at class creation or when choosing items/buffs,) or simply failed to optimize that aspect of their character, they're dead or very badly wounded. You're also assuming that this wizard, with his base Ref save of +4, has optimized well enough to put almost a +20 bonus into their saves.

That's quite frankly not going to be the case at a lot of actual tables. I fully accept that it might be absolutely par for the course at yours, but other people's mileage can and does vary.

EDIT: I missed the 'poorly made characters' bit. Even if we accepted your claim at face value (that non-CON-optimized characters are by definition poorly made) it creates an entirely different argument for "when is Protection better than Resistance:" when your character, through bad choices or exceptionally unlucky rolls, is stuck with below-average hit points and cannot afford to let elemental damage through.

[Basket Burner]

4 + (2.5*12) = 34 hit points from class levels, leaving 52 from CON. You're assuming an 18 CON for a 13th level caster.

Sure.


Is that entirely possible? Yes. Is it always the case, at all tables? No. If the wizard is an elf, or invested in another ability (either at class creation or when choosing items/buffs,) or simply failed to optimize that aspect of their character, they're dead or very badly wounded. You're also assuming that this wizard, with his base Ref save of +4, has optimized well enough to put almost a +20 bonus into their saves.

14 base + 4 item, which costs a mere 8k out of his 110k total and is easily affordable along with his 18k Headband +6 and other standard items, which leave plenty left for individual desires. Being an elf, or not keeping your con item up to date, or otherwise ignoring that Con is everyone's second most important stat are all examples of poorly made characters. But all that proves is that poorly made characters die easily. I already knew that.

Forgot to mention: His saves at this level are minimum +20 Reflex. So that's 85% success?


That's quite frankly not going to be the case at a lot of actual tables. I fully accept that it might be absolutely par for the course at yours, but other people's mileage can and does vary.

Then other tables have more poorly made characters. Presumably they also have far more frequent character death.


EDIT: I missed the 'poorly made characters' bit. Even if we accepted your claim at face value (that non-CON-optimized characters are by definition poorly made) it creates an entirely different argument for "when is Protection better than Resistance:" when your character, through bad choices or exceptionally unlucky rolls, is stuck with below-average hit points and cannot afford to let elemental damage through.

14 base Con is hardly optimized. 16 is generally affordable on a Wizard without compromising Int. Likewise, +6 secondary stat items are possible at this level, just usually the Wizard waits a level or two longer. That means that the optimized number would be 22, not 18. But that aside... any character so weak that being hit by energy attacks is actually a serious concern goes beyond the Protection/Resistance thing for a different reason. They have far worse problems. It is also worth mentioning that Energy Immunity is available at this level to the Wizard and 2 levels ago to divine casters. It also lasts all day instead of 10 minutes per level. So if that were really a concern, the answer is still neither.

[Drelua]

Then other tables have more poorly made characters. Presumably they also have far more frequent character death.

:smallconfused:...what!?! I play in an extremely unoptimized group. I have very much enjoyed TWF Fighters and Monks when I played 3.5 and had hardly heard of optimization. In my group, monks never have trouble contributing. In 4 years of play, 1 PC and 1 DMPC have died. The DMPC got some dramatic death and the PC died of sheer stupidity.

Something you should realize; this may come as a shock to you, but some people have a very different play style from yourself. Less optimization does not mean more death, because some people like to focus on role-playing and find that character death gets in the way of that.

[Gwendol]

Basket Burner also assumes that all characters collect loot up to their WBL. My experience is that WBL is only relevant at character creation, and that accrued treasures typically taper off.

Protection for energy has its uses, also if the character must brave some difficult environmental hazard safely. Other than that and the occasional single shot high energy damage situation Resistance to energy will be good enough.

[Basket Burner]

These boards are filled with recounts of unoptimized parties getting slaughtered. One in particular stands out. The casters are blasting (and running out of spells, I wonder why), and one of the melees is sword and board and it took them a while to figure out Mass Resist Energy among other problems. They averaged about 2 deaths a session throughout the campaign. And that was for RHoD, which is an easy module without heavy buffing. Now I don't know how many of those were from bad Con, but given that the main enemy tactics were to either attack or blast it probably was. Whatever the case, it does soundly demonstrate that weaker characters die more, and also that you are unable to roleplay if you are dead.

If the game is going to be lower than standard WBL then the Wizard still gets at least standard via any number of means, and all that accomplishes is that there is far less reason to play any of the more equipment dependent classes. Environmental hazards are entirely ignorable with Resist Energy, whereas Protection would quickly be expended.

[ericgrau]

Protection, easily. You usually don't get hit by more than ~100 energy damage even after multiple blasts, but you usually get hit by more than ~20 at once. Another way to look at it is by the time you get hit 4 times (rare) for resist to merely break even with protection, the fight is already over. The uncommon exception is if you expect energy auras, going into a volcano and expect heat damage, etc., etc. Even then if I expected related elemental themed monsters I'd get both if possible, even with the weird way they stack/don't stack.

This is D&D, where a round lasts 5-10 minutes of real time and things die in 2-3 rounds. What is all this talk as if single strong blasts were the exception rather than the norm?

[Basket Burner]

This is D&D, where a round lasts 5-10 minutes of real time and things die in 2-3 rounds. What is all this talk as if single strong blasts were the exception rather than the norm?

Because evocation is really weak, and anyone smart enough to make it not weak is also smart enough to cast better spells/bypass protections. Which means that single strong blasts are the exception.

[dextercorvia]

Because evocation is really weak, and anyone smart enough to make it not weak is also smart enough to cast better spells/bypass protections. Which means that single strong blasts are the exception.

But his point is that Protection from Energy will 1. Protect from an entire combat's worth of energy attacks -- not just most of it. and 2. Force 1/2 damage from a Searing spell type effect, not be completely bypassed by it.

Suppose that you are 10th level going up against something with a 10d6 fire attack that they use (unimaginatively) every round of combat. For the sake of this, we will say combat lasts 4 rounds (and you fail a Reflex save half the time). If you prepare for this by casting Energy Resistance, you will take 44 points of damage on average. If you prepare for this by casting Pro from Energy, you will take 0 points of damage on average.

[Basket Burner]

In such an instance, the resist user would take 0, and the protection user would take 0. However Protection is a 3rd level spell, and MASS resist is a 3rd level spell. So even if you stand there and let them hit you four times, you're still better off with resist.