Players who are stuck on the same tier of classes.

[NOhara24]

I'll say this now, this hasn't bloomed into a tangible issue yet. I just want to see if it has for anyone else.

I've got a Druid in my current party. Wonderful. He's doing what he does best. Overshadowing the rest of the party, simply due to the fact that he choose the "easy button" of all the classes in D&D. OoC, he's a good dude, so he and I hang out from time-to-time. Last time I was at his place, he had the Wizard's handbook open.

My first thought was "Really? You're going to play a Druid in one game, and in the next game, you're just gonna go wizard? Are you that afraid of someone else being the 'star' of the party?"

I think there's a sort of "unspoken code" among (good) D&D players, in that you always play a different class/race from game-to-game, unless you're playing an old character for nostalgic purposes. This of course, means "different" enough so that your own experience, along with everyone else's, actually changes from campaign-to-campaign. Instead of "Oh...Player A is playing a T1 class...again...no spotlight for anyone else."

Does anyone know where I'm coming from? Or am I just insane?

[Tyndmyr]

Playing Wizard is notably different than playing a druid...or at least, it can be. My guess would be that he likes the complexity of playing full casters, and most people tend to look at core classes first, and other classes later, if at all.

I'm currently running a campaign in which all core classes and races are banned, to force people to branch out, and it's pretty fantastic. It's really, really easy for people to get set in a niche otherwise.

[Basket Burner]

So he likes full casters. For him to be the "star" as you put it everyone else would have to be playing much weaker classes. So why is that?

[NikitaDarkstar]

Talk to him about it. No seriously, find out why he likes those classes. Is it the power of them? (If so, that's hard to change.) Does he likes the complexity of the full casters? Maybe it just hasn't struck him to look outside of core?

Also talk to the rest of the group. Find out why they play what they're playing and also find out if they have an issue with player A's style. If they don't I honestly don't see a reason with messing with anything. If they do, see if you can help them to step things up and get him to tone it down.

As for playing the same class/race. Come on, you're playing more than a bunch of stats and just because your current wizard/fighter/whatever acts one way doesn't mean the next character will be a carbon copy. What if he's playing something he enjoys and no one else wants to touch with a stick?

[flumphy]

It's possible to build two wizards that play very differently, and that's before you get into prestige classes or character personality. And yes, unless one of those builds was devoted to polymorph shenanigans, a druid would be different from either.

I'm not really a fan of the way tier 1s play (because I hate resource management, not because OMGTHEPOWER.) I do, however, give credit where credit is due. The tier 1s have a lot of variety.

And what makes a good player is a subjective thing. Honestly, on my list of things that make a good player, the ability to make a powerful character within the limits set by your DM rates higher than arbitrarily gimping oneself for variety.

[Tengu_temp]

Why isn't this in the DND 3e subforum?

I second talking to that guy. Maybe he's not aware how overpowered full casters are, and only plays them because most classes have very few options and are mechanically boring? Maybe he could play a lower tier full caster, or a ToB class?

Also:

I think there's a sort of "unspoken code" among (good) D&D players, in that you always play a different class/race from game-to-game, unless you're playing an old character for nostalgic purposes.
You think wrong.

[pluizig]

I like the unspoken rule, but some people really get attached to a class.

For example: my current group's characters over the years:
Me: Cleric, Fighter, Monk, Warlock, Swashbuckler
E: Rogue, Cleric, Rogue, Paladin
S: Fighter, Beguiler, Barbarian, Ranger
D: Wizard, Wizard, Wizard, Wizard. All Evokers, too.

[Yora]

Problem is, it doesn't exist.

I know lots of people who always play the same one or two classes, and I've never heard anyone complain about that.

[Tiki Snakes]

The problem with the above situation is, that the classes that have the most options, the most stuff to work with just happen to be the T1 classes. If it's genuinely causing a problem, for example if the rest of the group loves monks and fighters, then it might be worth asking him if he could tier it down a bit, but it's a slightly rude request if he's not actually doing anything wrong.
Alternatively, what kind of characters are the rest of the party usually playing? Perhaps if you guys were playing slightly higher tier characters, not only would he be over-shadowing less, but you'd have more options yourself which could lead to a richer experience all-round?

[navar100]

How dare the player play what he likes to play.

[Tyndmyr]

Problem is, it doesn't exist.

I know lots of people who always play the same one or two classes, and I've never heard anyone complain about that.

This is also pretty true, yeah. I know a LOT of people that do this. Most, probably.

I like to encourage diversity, but you can only do that so much before you risk pushing players far enough outside their comfort zone that they're confused/uninterested.

[darksolitaire]

I've got a Druid in my current party. Wonderful. He's doing what he does best. Overshadowing the rest of the party, simply due to the fact that he choose the "easy button" of all the classes in D&D.

Druids have many options available to them. Playing warrior class might be considered as the easy button.


OoC, he's a good dude, so he and I hang out from time-to-time. Last time I was at his place, he had the Wizard's handbook open.

So, he is a problem ingame?



My first thought was "Really? You're going to play a Druid in one game, and in the next game, you're just gonna go wizard? Are you that afraid of someone else being the 'star' of the party?"

This is the reason you came up with. There are more reasons behind character selection besides that. You didn't ask him?



I think there's a sort of "unspoken code" among (good) D&D players, in that you always play a different class/race from game-to-game, unless you're playing an old character for nostalgic purposes. This of course, means "different" enough so that your own experience, along with everyone else's, actually changes from campaign-to-campaign. Instead of "Oh...Player A is playing a T1 class...again...no spotlight for anyone else."


First time I've heard of that code, and I consider myself a decent player. I like wizards, so I play them. It's the wizard-ness, really. Can't be bothered with Sorcerers. I don't do it to shine rest of the party. I do it because I like wizards.

I think that either player is a spotlight hog or not, and that doesn't have anything to do which class/race he plays.

[NOhara24]

To clarify, the only reason I alluded to an "unspoken rule" was because of the fact that problem players all tend to share the same characteristics. One of those characteristics being always playing the same sort of character campaign to campaign. Maybe the personality, motivations or backstory is recycled. Or maybe it's the fact that they ALWAYS play X class. I remember specifically one DM somewhere on this forum had a player who always tried to play a "mysterious" sort of hexblade. Another guy ALWAYS played a Lawful Evil diplomancer sort.

It hasn't become a problem, at all. I was just wondering if anyone else has had the same sort of player in their experiences. I'd mark it up to "powergaming", but it's too early for me to conclude that he's doing that. As playing an Elf Druid isn't exactly hard, or atypical.

What it can be marked up to, is a penchant for full casters. That much is clear. And hey, if he doesn't want to branch out, good for him.

[NOhara24]

I think that either player is a spotlight hog or not, and that doesn't have anything to do which class/race he plays.

It's probably me jumping to conclusions, but just seeing how he plays now, and seeing what he plans to play later, does make me think he may not be someone who is willing to let others shine.

But again. This hasn't become a problem. I'll see what his character sheet looks like come next campaign.

[Tiki Snakes]

Eh, it's hard to go from "He played a Druid and a Wizard" to definate proof of powergaming, because they are two of the more iconic classes, straight out of the PHB.

Now, if he starts stacking metamagic, or third character is a DMM Cleric, then you might have some kind of trend going, but right now you just have 'Likes Casters'.

[NOhara24]

Eh, it's hard to go from "He played a Druid and a Wizard" to definate proof of powergaming, because they are two of the more iconic classes, straight out of the PHB.

Now, if he starts stacking metamagic, or third character is a DMM Cleric, then you might have some kind of trend going, but right now you just have 'Likes Casters'.

That's true. And to answer your questions from earlier, our party consists of a Paladin/Crusader/RKV, Cleric/Sovereign Speaker, Rogue/Invisible Blade, Monk/I-Monk and of course the Druid/Planar Shepard I was talking about.

There is a SMALL disconnect there as far as power levels go, but everyone in the party has realized that there's no point in competing. Not because we can't keep up, but because we're all on the same team.

But for now, you're right. Currently he just likes casters.

[Emmerask]

The first thing you should of course do is talk to the player, its always the best option.

Or you could play a one shot with a different systems where full casters are not the best classes that can do everything better then everyone else...

See what he picks there, if its still a caster then you just have a player on your hand who really likes casters if he picks the most powerful class there too, well then you might have a player you maybe don´t want on your hands.

I think Rolemaster, Shadowrun (maybe? didn´t play it all that much) and Dark eye would qualify for that.

The other options would be to
1) help the other players to create similarly powerful characters
2) ban all tier 1 and 2 classes and all tier -x prcs
3) nerf all full casters/prcs to 1/2 spell progression

[Tyndmyr]

Or play a game in which everyone is a caster. I find these are vastly, vastly better than the reverse.

[Emmerask]

I think that would fall under the
1) help the other players to create similarly powerful characters

Because no matter how hard you try in d&d if you want to be similarly powerful to a caster, you have to be a caster of some kind ^^

[Zaakar]

I'd consider playing another game. There are many much better balanced games where problems like this are smaller.

Just a thought.

[navar100]

Would you be complaining if he only played paladins and fighters and other Tier 5 classes? What if he only played warblades, binders, beguilers and other Tier 3 only classes?

[marcielle]

I really don't see why Tier 1 HAVE to be a problem even if the rest of the team are lower tier. Druids dont have to beat, they just need to be swarmed by mini mooks till someone can put metal shackels on them. A tactic anything with an Int of 6 would have figured out considering how big a threat Druids are. You don't have to do it all the time, just until he learns to stand back. Is it acceptable to throw a counter to a specific class? Have you ever sent a flying enemy against a fighter? Half their tricks gone down the drain. As for wizards, sneaks might help. Say, a scout flanking the party. Any organization large enough to be part of the storyline probably has magekillers. Rouge/Ninja, human, flaws, mageslayer line. It's exactly the same as having a good antivirus on your computer, not everyone has one but anyone rich/smart enough will.

[big teej]

this is a little off topic but I fully expected to have to launch into a defense of my favorite class (the knight) and other low tier mundane classes I enjoy.

cause of the name you know.


anywho, as big a fan as I am of stopping problems before they develop, I believe you've jumped the gun a wee bit.

talk to the player about WHY they're "stuck" inside full casters.

then, when/if he replies "omgteehpowaaaa"

then come here and talk to the collected brilliance of the playground about how to fix it.

[JaronK]

If you started out with full casters, and got good with them, it can be tough to adjust to weaker characters. Or maybe his game style is that he likes "winning" and defeating the challenges, so he's picking classes that let him do that.

But it doesn't sound like he's really creating much of a problem here. If is, then talk to him, and maybe get him to play weaker casty types that still might give him what he's looking for without overshadowing everyone (Factotum, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Warmage, Healer, Warlock).

JaronK

[Calanon]

To clarify, the only reason I alluded to an "unspoken rule" was because of the fact that problem players all tend to share the same characteristics. One of those characteristics being always playing the same sort of character campaign to campaign. Maybe the personality, motivations or backstory is recycled. Or maybe it's the fact that they ALWAYS play X class.

Would you complain if he wanted to be a Commoner (BASKET WEAVING!) every game?


I remember specifically one DM somewhere on this forum had a player who always tried to play a "mysterious" sort of hexblade. Another guy ALWAYS played a Lawful Evil diplomancer sort.

Yes, and I like playing an Evil Necromancer in my guys...

Ur-priest, Necromancer, Dread Necromancer, Cleric of Vecna*, and if I'm really tired of being a caster I add in levels of Rogue to my Ur-priest build... (I like the idea of being an Evil character... so sue me :smallredface:)


It hasn't become a problem, at all. I was just wondering if anyone else has had the same sort of player in their experiences. I'd mark it up to "powergaming", but it's too early for me to conclude that he's doing that. As playing an Elf Druid isn't exactly hard, or atypical.

>Implying that Druids like any other caster can't be killed
>Implying that powergamers can't be slaughtered like a level 1 commoner with a high will save

Anti-magic field (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html):It was MADE for killing casters :smallwink:


What it can be marked up to, is a penchant for full casters. That much is clear. And hey, if he doesn't want to branch out, good for him.

Tell him to play a Psion :smallbiggrin: (its a full MANIFESTER!) Of course you could tell him to play a Rogue (WHAT? i like Rogues :smallredface:) Hell if it comes down to it than you can just limit players to certain tiers and just label it off as "I wanna see how you can adapt at classes you rarely play"

[MeeposFire]

don't worry about him playing a wizard. Wizards are not an easy button unless you know what you are doing. Druids require far less thinking to make it work. Let him play the wizard and only prevent him from using things that ruin the game for everybody. For instance don't allow insane planar binding tricks but allow him to blast away with magic missile.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

So I'm curious do other players in your group have a favorite role? I find in a lot of groups there is a sneaky player, a tankey player, a blastey player etc etc and since these roles are covered it leaves a responsible last player to fill in the gap playing the utility caster or the healer.

I know this happened to me in sveral groups in one group I became known as "the cleric guy" because in several games I came in when everyone was halfway done or done making characters and when I heard everyones plans my immeadiate response was "sounds like we need a cleric" then to compound it in two roll down the line games I rolled above average strengh, low dex, high con, average intellegence, high wisdom, above average charisma and someone would say "looks like Pat get's to play his favorite class again".

Then in another group we only had four players so what else can you do if your character dies but build another to fill the same role. Sure you can do it a little differently and sometimes you can even throw a curveball like say replacing your crazy unstoppable huge size barbarian with a summoner point is I'm still the guy filling a bunch of hexes on the map between the bad guys and the party and the group wouln't function if I didn't.

He may feel that full caster is his role in your group.

Oh and I don't know about the OP but I complain all the time about players that only play tier 5.

[chaos_redefined]

Show him Beguiler, Dread Necro, psionics, etc... Classes with versatility/complexity similar to the full casters of tier 1, but at a lower tier.

[Basket Burner]

He's an Elf Druid, so being a powergamer can be ruled right out.

Anti Magic Field is just an elaborate way for a high level caster to commit ritual suicide.

[graeylin]

Wow, i never realized until now that I was such a jerk player.

I have a gnome wizard I love to play (transmuter specialist). Then, the beguiler seemed interesting, so I played one of those in a game. And, a buddy needed some arcane help in another game, so i offered a sorcerer to patch that hole. And, I really really want to play a summoner/malconvoker (conjurer specialist) in another game. And, i have a high level non-shapeshifting druid in a game too.

I guess I was just blind to my bias, liking to play complex, multi-dimensional characters who can cast spells. Before this was pointed out to me, I would have sworn that all four of these PC's were very different in power, focus, characteristics and abilities. But now.. wow.

[Daftendirekt]

Wow, i never realized until now that I was such a jerk player.

I have a gnome wizard I love to play (transmuter specialist). Then, the beguiler seemed interesting, so I played one of those in a game. And, a buddy needed some arcane help in another game, so i offered a sorcerer to patch that hole. And, I really really want to play a summoner/malconvoker (conjurer specialist) in another game. And, i have a high level non-shapeshifting druid in a game too.

I guess I was just blind to my bias, liking to play complex, multi-dimensional characters who can cast spells. Before this was pointed out to me, I would have sworn that all four of these PC's were very different in power, focus, characteristics and abilities. But now.. wow.
Not sure if sarcastic or not. :smallconfused:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Show him Beguiler, Dread Necro, psionics, etc... Classes with versatility/complexity similar to the full casters of tier 1, but at a lower tier.

I think you mean complexity, flavor and at times raw power of wizard, they don't have nearly the versatility that's why their tier 3.

Also just wanted to say I don't think of tier 1 or 2 or 3 casters as "easy button" they'll be powerful and versatile sure but you have to think about your actions. Simple "I hit it again" mellee bulds would be easy mode if they weren't so gimped. They are easy mode in neverwinter nights because so many caster abilities are non existent in the gameworld. A friend and I both recently played neverwinter nights him as a Barbarian/fighter/frenzied berserker/weaponmaster me as clericzilla we both stomped every fight but I had to go through a three minute buff routine every time I rested so he beat the game about 20% faster.

[PirateLizard]

I CAST FIREBALL CENTERED ON MYSELF!

Sorry if you don't read AGC (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=1).