What would Truenamer be like if it had access to all utterances?

[TuggyNE]

So, I've become rather intrigued by the brokenness of the Truenamer due to threads like Zaq's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214115), and felt like proposing a thought experiment: what would be the ramifications of giving Truenamers access to all utterances automatically as they level? Now, obviously, this wouldn't fix their horrible problem with the Law of Sequence and the unpleasantness of meeting the ever-rising DCs, but it would at least give them a minor boost.

Fluff-wise, it seems like it might make more sense, too, to be capable of Truespeaking pretty much anything, rather than being limited to a particular set.

(BTW: I don't at present have any plans to play a Truenamer, since I very much doubt I'd be capable of making it work well; however, I am still interested in the class, in an armchair sort of way.)

[Tyndmyr]

It wouldn't be unreasonable. See, here's the thing...there's still a very limited selection of Utterances, so most Truenamers are going to have many of the same ones. I mean, healing/damage utterance? You need those. The one that gives you +5 to truespeaking? Hells yeah you want that one. Seek the Sky? Well, you want one of the two versions of it, anyway.

So, most truenamers already have all the good ones, basically. Adding them all just means that there's no tough choice about the first one of a new level to add, and you get a touch more flexibility due to knowing more versions of a given Utterance(can have them running simul, they don't affect each others dcs).

I don't actually consider them that horrible, btw, and would say their worst problem is a lack of support in other splatbooks. What's written for them isn't bad at all. The problem is what isn't written.

[Psyren]

It'll help at low levels, since utterances like Knight's Puissance that are useful early on but scale poorly can now be taken without sacrificing what little long-term power they possess.

Unfortunately, the problem here is that there are only a few worth taking at any given level anyway. As Zaq often points out, two truenamers are going to look and play very similarly because there's such a clear demarcation between useful utterances and useless ones. Letting them pick up the ones they wouldn't have wanted to pick up anyway therefore won't have a material effect on their power level going into mid- and high-levels. For example; will your truenamer really get that much of a bump now that he gets Morale Boost and Lore of the World for free?

Ninja'd by Tynd

[Draz74]

I actually think this would help a lot, and that it's a cool idea. Surprised I've never seen it before.

The Laws of Sequence and Resistance would be a lot less annoying if the Truenamer had a gazillion (sub-par, but better than nothing) Utterance options to fall back on at any moment.

[Dusk Eclipse]

It wouldn't be unreasonable. See, here's the thing...there's still a very limited selection of Utterances, so most Truenamers are going to have many of the same ones. I mean, healing/damage utterance? You need those. The one that gives you +5 to truespeaking? Hells yeah you want that one. Seek the Sky? Well, you want one of the two versions of it, anyway.

So, most truenamers already have all the good ones, basically. Adding them all just means that there's no tough choice about the first one of a new level to add, and you get a touch more flexibility due to knowing more versions of a given Utterance(can have them running simul, they don't affect each others dcs).

I don't actually consider them that horrible, btw, and would say their worst problem is a lack of support in other splatbooks. What's written for them isn't bad at all. The problem is what isn't written.

I think that is the crux of almost all subsystems in 3.5, some of them are extremely cool either crunchwise (Martial maneuvers), fluffwise (Truenamers) or both (Incarnum); but due the lack of support they fell even more behind the Vancian casters.

[Tyndmyr]

I think that is the crux of almost all subsystems in 3.5, some of them are extremely cool either crunchwise (Martial maneuvers), fluffwise (Truenamers) or both (Incarnum); but due the lack of support they fell even more behind the Vancian casters.

It's not a problem unique to Truenamers, but they get hit by it especially hard. With the single exception of the truenamer org, I'm not aware of ANY splatbok support for them. Martial maneuvers are limited too...but there's a whole book for them, and they all interact pretty well with each other. ToM is basically three mini-books, one for each of the classes within. It's rough on em.

But yeah, spells are printed everywhere. The sheer volume out there guarantees fun toys are available.

[ThiefInTheNight]

I don't actually consider them that horrible, btw, and would say their worst problem is a lack of support in other splatbooks. What's written for them isn't bad at all. The problem is what isn't written.
I am reasonably confident in the statement that "you are wrong, on an objective level; what is written for them is bad." See also Zaq's experience. Heavy optimization just to function, even then couldn't do much. Unless you're talking about "splatbook support that adds utterances dramatically more powerful than what's in Tome of Magic", I just couldn't disagree more.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think I have seen some homebrew utterance for Truenamers here; but I don't think that counts.

@ThiefiInTheNight: haven't read the Truenamers in depth and it has been a long time since I've read Zaq's experience with them; but from what I recall there were some quite good utterance that became horrible due the Law of sequence and the fact you can't have more than one utterance active (or something like that)

[Tyndmyr]

I am reasonably confident in the statement that "you are wrong, on an objective level; what is written for them is bad." See also Zaq's experience. Heavy optimization just to function, even then couldn't do much. Unless you're talking about "splatbook support that adds utterances dramatically more powerful than what's in Tome of Magic", I just couldn't disagree more.

Nah. I've built them. I've DMed for them. I've handed them to new chars(Big fan of ToM here) I kind of want to play one in one of the solo, online meat grinder dungeons just to demo the utility.

The only optimization you need is "more truenaming skill, please!". That's it. You're playing at a tier 3-4 level solidly then, without a doubt. If you bother to pick up quicken and the odd item to UMD, you can rock pretty hard. See, the things that bother everyone else just aren't a thing for you. Spell resistance? Ignore it. ACF? Don't have it. Attack rolls? Saves? What? Untyped damage for all! And there's no auto-fail on skill checks. Get the truenaming high, and you literally become unstoppable with all the things in your arsenal.

The truenamer is rarely played, and maligned much more than it deserves. It's a damned solid class in itself, it just doesn't have enough support to allow variety in it or a lot of viable archtypes for it.

Edit: There's no limit on how many utterances you can have active...you just can't have the same utterance active twice at once. This is not nearly as big a deal as you'd think, since you get a free class feature that turns single target utterances into multitarget ones, and you'll typically have multiple versions of specific utterances. Only one free gate at a time? Acceptable. At level six, I can only have fast healing 5 active on one player at a time, but can have lesser versions on others? Not really a big deal. You can still be healing three people at once and still be nuking a target.

[ThiefInTheNight]

The amount of book-diving you have to do to pump your Truenaming check is a massive strike against them, IMO. The inability to do "different things" because you can't manage to keep up with Truenaming is another.

I think you are massively understating the importance of the Law of Sequence. There just aren't enough Utterances worth using to keep switching to other ones.

[RedWarrior0]

What I see as the drawbacks to truenamers are, in no particular order:

Law of Sequence (Of course, if you consider a voluntarily heightened utterance to be different, this is mitigated)
Poor variety in utterances
Bad vs. Over-CR'd creatures
Lack of good feat/ PrC support
Very short durations
Bad DC scaling

So it would only slightly mitigate one problem.

[Tyndmyr]

The amount of book-diving you have to do to pump your Truenaming check is a massive strike against them, IMO. The inability to do "different things" because you can't manage to keep up with Truenaming is another.

Not really. Your #1 feat is skill focus, which is core. Your #1 magical item is amulet of the silver tongue, which is in Tome of Magic, in the Truenaming section. It's quite hard to imagine that not being available when the Truenaming class is. Your best int boosters are the normal enchantment ones available everywhere, including core. Masterwork items are core.

Yes, splatbook diving for a guidance of the Avatar wand is an alternative solution. It's not a necessary one. You do need boosts. You don't need to dive through a wild number of splatbooks for them.

Max ranks, max int(seriously, not boosting your casting stat is a poor choice for almost any caster), amulet of ST, skill focus alone will do you pretty well. Consider at level 8, if you have done exactly this...
Modifier:+11 from ranks+4 from starting int(more if you selected a +int race)+1 from additional int+3 skill focus+2 masterwork item+2 from a +4 int enchantment item+5 from utterance that boosts truenaming+10 from Amulet= +48

None of that was outside of core and ToM, and I didn't maximize the boosts available from there.

In comparison, the DC to hit for a CR 8 monster is 31. I feel like you'll make it.


I think you are massively understating the importance of the Law of Sequence. There just aren't enough Utterances worth using to keep switching to other ones.

You don't have to switch every time. The reversed words of nurturing, which are your bread and butter nukes? Look at the duration, it's only around for a single extra round, during which you can expend your action to get the nuke again. So...basically a re-use, if the target still lives. If the target doesn't still live, it's not a problem. Nuke the next target. And that re-use is strictly better than recasting, since it doesn't boost your DC like recasting would.

You only need to possibly swap your nukes around when you're abusing the action economy to nuke repeatedly in a single round. That's not a great problem. It's only a real hindrance if you try to be a primary healer AND a primary nuker at the same time.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Not really. Your #1 feat is skill focus, which is core. Your #1 magical item is amulet of the silver tongue, which is in Tome of Magic, in the Truenaming section. It's quite hard to imagine that not being available when the Truenaming class is. Your best int boosters are the normal enchantment ones available everywhere, including core.
Yes, but these aren't enough to make the class playable from 1-20.


Masterwork items are core.
Core, yes, available strictly by RAW at every at most at many tables? No. I'm not going to argue with you about the validity of Masterwork Tools, I'm only going to state that many tables are not going to have them available and that is not a houserule. There is no indication in Tome of Magic that there exists any mundane item that would improve Truenaming checks (and a reference guide isn't realistic for a Standard Action). I allow these things at my table, and have frequently used them in games — but only after clearing it with DMs, and I have had DMs who have objected and also DMs who have been quite angry at people for having assumed it was allowed.


Yes, splatbook diving for a guidance of the Avatar wand is an alternative solution. It's not a necessary one. You do need boosts. You don't need to dive through a wild number of splatbooks for them.
Your assertion clashes with what I've read, both from theorycrafting Tome of Magic and reading people's play experiences.


Max ranks, [...] amulet of ST, skill focus alone
I'll agree with these.


max int(seriously, not boosting your casting stat is a poor choice for almost any caster),
Define 'max'. If you mean "starting at 18 and putting all your boosts into it and getting the items as appropriate", I agree. If you mean starting at 20, though, I don't agree; any class that requires that you max your stats in a +2 race is terrible. Hell, requiring a maxed stat to begin with is pretty poor (in a low point-buy, an 18 is painful to have).


will do you pretty well.
Again, that's not how it looks to me, nor to several others whose play experience I have read. You are contradicting a lot of people here, whose experiences were thoroughly documented and the descriptions of which match what I get looking through Tome of Magic.


Consider at level 8, if you have done exactly this...
Modifier:+11 from ranks+4 from starting int(more if you selected a +int race)+1 from additional int+3 skill focus+2 masterwork item+2 from a +4 int enchantment item+5 from utterance that boosts truenaming+10 from Amulet= +48

None of that was outside of core and ToM, and I didn't maximize the boosts available from there.

In comparison, the DC to hit for a CR 8 monster is 31. I feel like you'll make it.
If I'm spending two-thirds of my WBL, a feat, eleven skill points, and a wasted Standard Action at the beginning of every combat, I want more than basic functionality. You don't consider the return on investment here to be ridiculously underwhelming?


You don't have to switch every time. The reversed words of nurturing, which are your bread and butter nukes? Look at the duration, it's only around for a single extra round, during which you can expend your action to get the nuke again. So...basically a re-use, if the target still lives. If the target doesn't still live, it's not a problem. Nuke the next target. And that re-use is strictly better than recasting, since it doesn't boost your DC like recasting would.
Reversed Word of Nurturing is a far cry from a "nuke"; it's really pretty meh damage. I know, it's the best you've got, but that's exactly the problem I was indicating.


You only need to possibly swap your nukes around when you're abusing the action economy to nuke repeatedly in a single round. That's not a great problem. It's only a real hindrance if you try to be a primary healer AND a primary nuker at the same time.
"Abusing the action economy," by which I assume you mean, using the one decent feat that Truenamers get?

[TuggyNE]

So, it looks like this change would have a fairly small but generally positive effect. That's good to know.

Changing directions a bit, are there any other similarly small house rules that would also improve 'namers? (I'm assuming a decent environment, with the association, amulet of the ST, and so on.) MW speaking tool (I've heard various suggestions for fluffing it, such as an amplifying cone, throat spray, etc) seems like the next thing on the list.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There are a huge amount of Truenamer fixes floating here on the boards, I remember that two were particularly notorious; but I can't remember who did them :smallredface:

[Tyndmyr]

Yes, but these aren't enough to make the class playable from 1-20.

You'll need to upgrade your int booster as you go, of course, but honestly, just dumping skill ranks into truenaming takes care of half the escalating dc problem. Improving your int enchantment item and level up stat boost going into int(and later getting inherent bonuses to int, like any int based caster should) will take care of most of the rest.

You'll likely want another feat or two or an item boosting it at some point, but you don't need to invest too heavily in this.


Core, yes, available strictly by RAW at every at most at many tables? No. I'm not going to argue with you about the validity of Masterwork Tools, I'm only going to state that many tables are not going to have them available and that is not a houserule.

It says in core that they exist for EVERY skill. So, the removal of them is a house rule. You may like it, and that's fine, but it is not RAW. Assumption of the availability of core items is not that unusual.


There is no indication in Tome of Magic that there exists any mundane item that would improve Truenaming checks (and a reference guide isn't realistic for a Standard Action). I allow these things at my table, and have frequently used them in games — but only after clearing it with DMs, and I have had DMs who have objected and also DMs who have been quite angry at people for having assumed it was allowed.

Why should there be? It doesn't have a list of items that boost truenaming. No skill has a master list of items that boost it.

You can fluff it as a reference guide or a loudspeaker, or throat lozenges or whatever you and your DM like, really, but that's mostly


Your assertion clashes with what I've read, both from theorycrafting Tome of Magic and reading people's play experiences.

You do need to boost truenaming. But in 3.5, skill checks are among the easiest things to boost. The amount of optimization needed is only moderate. Now, if you're the sort of person who plays orc blaster wizards with a 12 int...yeah, truenamer would suck pretty badly for you...but lets be honest, that wizard isn't doing that great either. Better, cause he's tier 1, but still pretty shoddy.


Define 'max'. If you mean "starting at 18 and putting all your boosts into it and getting the items as appropriate", I agree. If you mean starting at 20, though, I don't agree; any class that requires that you max your stats in a +2 race is terrible. Hell, requiring a maxed stat to begin with is pretty poor (in a low point-buy, an 18 is painful to have).

My math assumed a starting int of 18, and all boosts going into it. 20 is preferable, but not a requirement by any means. Truenamers are pretty SAD, so an 18 isn't that crazy, and you could get by with less, though it'd hurt a bit.


Again, that's not how it looks to me, nor to several others whose play experience I have read. You are contradicting a lot of people here, whose experiences were thoroughly documented and the descriptions of which match what I get looking through Tome of Magic.

Don't listen to just the conclusion...crunch the numbers. Play one. It ends up a lot better in play than the internet evaluation of them would indicate.


If I'm spending two-thirds of my WBL, a feat, eleven skill points, and a wasted Standard Action at the beginning of every combat, I want more than basic functionality. You don't consider the return on investment here to be ridiculously underwhelming?

Please. Most classes require a WBL investment to not suck, a skill point requirement is common for most builds(Wizards without spellcraft basically don't exist, for instance). You won't waste a standard action at the beginning of every combat, since you're auto-hitting DCs for quite some time.

Not until there's a risk of failure should bother blowing a standard action to get a boost to your truenaming checks.


Reversed Word of Nurturing is a far cry from a "nuke"; it's really pretty meh damage. I know, it's the best you've got, but that's exactly the problem I was indicating.

Oh, it's a nuke. Consider your blasting spells in general. Worse(and occasionally better) ones exist, but your normal blasting spell does d6 typed damage/level and has an attack roll or a save.

The Reversed Words of Nurturing will generally do a bit less damage, but in return, it's untyped, and has no attack roll or save. Not stellar, but reliable. Remember what makes the mailman build awesome? The fact that the only thing that can stop it is a really high touch ac.

That doesn't stop a truenamer either. If you can make the checks, you can blast it, regardless of how nasty it is or what horrible defenses it has.


"Abusing the action economy," by which I assume you mean, using the one decent feat that Truenamers get?

Yes. Quicken is just as awesome for truenamers as any other caster. Belt of Battle is awesome for pretty much anybody.


In answer to other house rules to help truenamers? I'd suggest additional good utterances as the #1 thing. There are some good ones, but the variety is pretty terrible. I'd also allow an interested person to theurge them with something else, though this has never come up in my games.

[Psyren]

Please. Most classes require a WBL investment to not suck

*steps on brake*

Actually, every class T3 and up can do just fine with low WBL, never mind needing 2/3 of standard WBL just to function.

I agree with you that it's more competent than the forums make it seem, but Zaq's point is true too - the comparative resources you need to make a truenamer just function could make most other classes stellar. That is the problem.

[Tyndmyr]

*steps on brake*

Actually, every class T3 and up can do just fine with low WBL, never mind needing 2/3 of standard WBL just to function.

I agree with you that it's more competent than the forums make it seem, but Zaq's point is true too - the comparative resources you need to make a truenamer just function could make most other classes stellar. That is the problem.

Counterpoint, magical weapons. Any melee class without one is generally...crippled at best. Many of them also assume magical armor to get up to standard functionality, and seriously, people are going to be buying stat boosters anyway. Plus, any class without a means of flight needs to fix that with WBL to stay relevant.

I mean, if you're a human warblade without WBL....you're tier 3...but you're going to fade from incompetence into irrelevance as you level. You NEED to invest in that.

Sure, the tier 1s mostly can get away with moderate WBL expenditure...but even a wizard routinely spends money on his spellbook and picks up the exact same int booster the truenamer does, for the exact same reason...it improves his casting.

[Psyren]

Counterpoint, magical weapons. Any melee class without one is generally...crippled at best.

"Crippled at best?" Nonsense. Any T3+ melee can get around that easily. Case in point - ToB, Totemist, Incarnate, Binders, Psychic Warriors.

All can bypass DR without gear.
All can deal with flying/swimming enemies without items.
All can deal with special enemies e.g. incorporeal/invisible, again without items.

Items give them more capability, but they don't need them for basic functionality, whereas Truenamers do. That's why Truenamers aren't allowed in the T3 treehouse. T3's hallmark is having options that don't rely on their wallet.

[deuxhero]

Duskblade is (low) tier 3. How does it do flying foes without item support?

I think they can do the other two, but not sure on flying/swiming

[Psyren]

Duskblade is (low) tier 3. How does it do flying foes without item support?

Swift Fly+full attack, stay on the ground and shoot, teleport above them etc.

[Tyndmyr]

Playing an artificer without WBL would be sad times. I mean, sure...he's full bab, I guess he could hit things with a stick, and still make use of some class abilities, but WBL is pretty darned important to them. They're arguably not at all tier 1 without it.

Edit: Also, non magical shooting can be pretty ineffective. DR tends to stop it pretty hard. Teleporting above them? Well, I guess if you like taking massive fall damage. Also, your access to teleportation is limited. A Dim Door above them and one attack as you fall past is pretty weak. You also don't have it for most of the game. Swift fly is second level, so much better...but it's really, really short duration and is your only class feature access to flight.

And by "really, really short duration" I mean one round. So, after you swift fly up and SINGLE ATTACK since you still need to spend at least a move action getting there, you then fall back down. Er...yay?

Oh, and if it's too high for you to fly to in a single round...good luck with that.

[Qwertystop]

Playing an artificer without WBL would be sad times. I mean, sure...he's full bab, I guess he could hit things with a stick, and still make use of some class abilities, but WBL is pretty darned important to them. They're arguably not at all tier 1 without it.

Well, yeah. The class which has most class features based entirely on getting the most stuff for your wealth would certainly be dropped without any wealth (unless you use the various cost-reducers to bring it to 0, which may or may not be possble). Exception to every rule, and all that.

[Psyren]

Edit: Also, non magical shooting can be pretty ineffective. DR tends to stop it pretty hard. Teleporting above them? Well, I guess if you like taking massive fall damage.

1) Swift Fly, a 2nd-level spell, can be cast in midair for a safe descent (120-420 ft. up.) If that is not enough to reach the ground safely, it can be recast.
2) By "shooting" I meant rays, enervation, acid arrow etc, not arrows.
3) I specifically didn't mention the Duskblade because I'm not familiar enough with them to judge their tier.

[Tyndmyr]

The majority of all classes are ranked where they are assuming normal WBL. MANY of them would be in a different tier of WBL were significantly different(or not there at all).

Hell, samurai is a better melee class in extremely low wealth situations just because of the nearly free magic weapon.

Edit: Long range is not an area the duskblade is particularly strong in with magic. Look over his spell list.

0 level? Nothing worth using at range.
1st level? Burning Hands is too short to matter, ditto color spray. That leaves Kelgore's Fire Bolt as your only ranged option for d6/lvl, cap of five dice, reflex half, single target. It is a pretty terrible spell, and it's still only medium range.
2nd level? Scorching Ray and Melf's Acid Arrow are your only options. As a partial caster, these are both pretty underwhelming...Scorching ray is close, and thus, is usually not a solution to a lack of flight, and Acid Arrow deals terrible, terrible damage.
3rd level? Only Ray of Exhaustion. That's it. Close only. Next!
4th level? Enervation...close. Phantasmal Killer. Medium, and a terrible spell.
5th level? Disintegrate and chain lightning. Finally some useful nukes...but this is extremely late in your career. You will face flying foes much earlier.

Until you get 5th level spells, Melf's Acid Arrow is the ONLY long ranged spell in your arsenal, and the damage off it is terrible. You are basically irrelevant. Medium range is no better, as Kelgore's is also terrible.

[deuxhero]

Swift Fly+full attack, stay on the ground and shoot, teleport above them etc.

Oh right, they got Swift Fly and DD on their list.

[Psyren]

The majority of all classes are ranked where they are assuming normal WBL. MANY of them would be in a different tier of WBL were significantly different(or not there at all).

"Many?" I fail to see how Binder, Psywar, Totemist, Incarnate, Factotum and Swordsage would change tiers with low WBL. Maybe Warblade and Crusader would, I'll let someone more experienced with ToB field that one, but I doubt that as well.

And no, Samurai would not change tiers in a low-wealth game; even having the only magic pointy stick in the entire land would not give them the ability to do anything other than poke people with it.

[Tyndmyr]

"Many?" I fail to see how Binder, Psywar, Totemist, Incarnate, Factotum and Swordsage would change tiers with low WBL. Maybe Warblade and Crusader would, I'll let someone more experienced with ToB field that one, but I doubt that as well.

And no, Samurai would not change tiers in a low-wealth game; even having the only magic pointy stick in the entire land would not give them the ability to do anything other than poke people with it.

Any melee class depends pretty strongly on magical weapons and flight, with magical armor/shield being handy as well.

Even a crusader will typically only have a couple powers readied that can negate DR, so a lack of a magical weapon will severely impact their performance.

Hell, Wizard and Archivist likely drop to tier 2 in an extremely low WBL scenario. The access to wild amounts of spells is what makes them tier 1, and without cash to scribe...it ain't a factor.

[ThiefInTheNight]

It says in core that they exist for EVERY skill.
Where does it say this thing? I have never seen this, and I've not only read the book a few hundred times, I've also seen numerous arguments on this topic where no such citation is made. The only description of a masterwork tools that I see is "This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack."

The logic of this sentence is if you have a well-made tool, and if it could help a given attempt at a skill check, then the bonus is a +2 circumstance bonus to that check. It doesn't say (at all, even by implication) that there exists one for every skill.

[Psyren]

Any melee class depends pretty strongly on magical weapons and flight, with magical armor/shield being handy as well.

As I pointed out, T3 all do have flight without items.
For magical weapons, they can either bypass that as well, or suck it up and deal with the DR/miss chances as appropriate.



Hell, Wizard and Archivist likely drop to tier 2 in an extremely low WBL scenario. The access to wild amounts of spells is what makes them tier 1, and without cash to scribe...it ain't a factor.

This scenario specifically applies to T1 -> T2 because the only thing separating them is number of options. Less money does = less options, but they both can still break the game.

However, T3 -> T4? Low wealth only impacts the barest few of the T3 classes. "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate." - go through the T3 classes, and for the vast majority you'll see that designation is not dependent on their bank account at all.

As JaronK will tell you, the line between T1 and T2 isn't nearly as thick as the one between T2 and T3, or T3 and everything else.

[Tyndmyr]

As I pointed out, T3 all do have flight without items.
For magical weapons, they can either bypass that as well, or suck it up and deal with the DR/miss chances as appropriate.

What if it's incorporeal? Like say, a shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm)? Non magical weapons are just flat out useless...

So, melee T3s are sitting on their hands now(mostly).


This scenario specifically applies to T1 -> T2 because the only thing separating them is number of options. Less money does = less options, but they both can still break the game.

However, T3 -> T4? Low wealth only impacts the barest few of the T3 classes. "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate." - go through the T3 classes, and for the vast majority you'll see that designation is not dependent on their bank account at all.

As JaronK will tell you, the line between T1 and T2 isn't nearly as thick as the one between T2 and T3, or T3 and everything else.

And he listed Truenamer as sub Tier 6. Which is wildly inaccurate. I'm not sure why you're stuck on the T3 -> T4 bit...Tier 3 is about accurate. It's a limited list caster, with a specialized skill(Gate) that can solve encounters by itself, but generally this isn't a problem. Has a few options outside of combat as well as in it. Fits it like a glove.

[The Glyphstone]

You can't judge a class's performance by what it can do only at level 20.

[Tyndmyr]

You can't judge a class's performance by what it can do only at level 20.

Right. It's a nifty trick, but not sufficient to move it above Tier 3. Slight access to game breakingness in specific situations or specific builds is something Tier 3s can do.

However, the Tier 3 can be relied on to perform it's role solidly in almost all situations, and to be flexible when oddball things arise. Independence from items is not a criteria of high tiered classes.

[Psyren]

What if it's incorporeal? Like say, a shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm)? Non magical weapons are just flat out useless...

So, melee T3s are sitting on their hands now(mostly).

All of the T3s I mentioned can either enchant their own weapons temporarily (making them magic, ghost touch etc.), blast the shadows with magical effects (force or otherwise, taking the miss chance for the latter), or negate incorporeality through other means. And they can do this without needing wealth.


And he listed Truenamer as sub Tier 6. Which is wildly inaccurate. I'm not sure why you're stuck on the T3 -> T4 bit...Tier 3 is about accurate. It's a limited list caster, with a specialized skill(Gate) that can solve encounters by itself, but generally this isn't a problem. Has a few options outside of combat as well as in it. Fits it like a glove.

I don't think it's sub-T6 either. But neither do I think its T3. Gate at-will does not make up for 18-19 levels of mediocrity, or Healers would be T1 too.

I focused on T3 because of your statement:



Please. Most classes require a WBL investment to not suck...

Which is false, as most classes are not T4 or below. There are more classes in the T1-3 range than fall below it, and even some T4s can get by with low WBL e.g. Warlock. And while yes, lack of wealth can cause some T1s to fall to T2, they still are a very, VERY long way from "sucking."

[The Glyphstone]

Right. It's a nifty trick, but not sufficient to move it above Tier 3. Slight access to game breakingness in specific situations or specific builds is something Tier 3s can do.

However, the Tier 3 can be relied on to perform it's role solidly in almost all situations, and to be flexible when oddball things arise. Independence from items is not a criteria of high tiered classes.

Which is why it's not viable at Tier 3, because it doesn't get that trick until level 20. Class tiers are not dependent on level, otherwise all classes would be T1 at level 1. The Truenamer sucks for 19 levels, gets a gamebreaking ability at level 20...that doesn't make it Tier 3.

[Chronos]

Class tiers are not dependent on level, otherwise all classes would be T1 at level 1.Actually, most classes suck at level 1 (and this is as it should be), but there are a few that don't (which is a problem). The world of level 1 optimization is dominated by the druid, the warlock, the incarnate, and maybe the crusader.

The problem with the truenamer, meanwhile, is not that there isn't enough support for it in other books-- It's that it requires too much support from other books. Yeah, you can reliably hit DCs with an Item Familiar and Illumian and an item that isn't actually in any book but which gives a competence bonus to Truespeak and so on, but without that, you can't.

To explain a bit more what I mean: I grade college classes. Even if a student absolutely bombs a test, we still give a couple of pity points for getting your name right. A level 20 human truenamer, using every optimization option available from Tome of Magic and core, still fails at that task 40% of the time.

Oh, and that utterance that gives you +5 to skills? You have to use that first, before you can gain any benefit from it. With that 40% failure chance. Which only gets worse every time you have to use it. And right around where it ceases to be available (in the later encounters in a day) is also where you need it most, to support all your other likewise-more-difficult utterances. And gods help you if you have to actually fight the final boss of the dungeon (who might have a CR a few levels above you) after all of his mooks, as is the case in the vast majority of adventures.

[Qwertystop]

Yeah. The Truenamer is such a low tier because the tier system assumes equal amounts of optimization for all classes. Unless the amount of optimization is enormous (doing everything at all possible to get Truenaming high), the Truenamer actually gets worse the more they level (due to encounter CR increases). And if you optimize everything else equally (best possible items with WBL, perfect feat choices, etc), the other classes can do a lot more.

[golem1972]

It'll make the truenamer a little more versatile. You'll get the two or three utterances you would have picked anyway plus the ones you will almost never use anyway.

Mostly, its a boost at the lowest levels when you would normally only have one or two known.

Our biggest change was letting the truenamer learn spell names. It cost as much to learn as it would have to buy it as a scroll. "Casting" time was increased: standard action to full round, etc. DC's were brutal: 20 + spell level squared. Plus 5 law of resistance. We allow custom.magic items, so a truespeak mod of +100 isn't impossible.

[Qwertystop]

It'll make the truenamer a little more versatile. You'll get the two or three utterances you would have picked anyway plus the ones you will almost never use anyway.

Mostly, its a boost at the lowest levels when you would normally only have one or two known.

Also, it'd be a boost for the utterances with varying degrees of power (Least, Lesser, Moderate, and Greater Words of Nurturing, for example). You can use them on multiple targets (1 on each) for Law of Sequence, and Law of Resistance don't matter as much because you can spread your uses between them..

[Lans]

All of the T3s I mentioned can either enchant their own weapons temporarily (making them magic, ghost touch etc.), blast the shadows with magical effects (force or otherwise, taking the miss chance for the latter), or negate incorporeality through other means. And they can do this without needing wealth.



What is a Warblade or Crusader using to get through incorporeality?

[Psyren]

What is a Warblade or Crusader using to get through incorporeality?

Martial Study for a Desert Wind move? 50% beats 0%.

[Lans]

Martial Study for a Desert Wind move? 50% beats 0%.

Not gonna lie, thats pretty weak.

By weak I mean compared to other options that are available to anybody.
Anywho

The problem with putting all the stat boosts to intelligence and starting with n 18 in it is that Intelligence is only half the 'casting stat' meaning your saves are going to be ~20% lower than it should be.

Though if the change also consolidated the stats it would go a long way.

[Psyren]

Not gonna lie, thats pretty weak.

Still doable without a single copper, which was the point. *shrug*

[Scorpions__]

I think I have seen some homebrew utterance for Truenamers here; but I don't think that counts.

Check my sig for a load of new utterances if it interests you.






DM[F]R

[Lans]

Still doable without a single copper, which was the point. *shrug*

I thought the point was that they had a way to get through incorporeal that was better than options available to a vop 1st level commoner?

[Psyren]

I thought the point was that they had a way to get through incorporeal that was better than options available to a vop 1st level commoner?

I mentioned neither VoP nor character level to my knowledge, so I'm having trouble understanding what you're getting at.

[Akal Saris]

I could have sworn there were more ways for Warblades/Crusaders to get through incorporality. Hrm...Would the positive energy healing from crusader maneuvers get through to incorporeal undead?

[ThiefInTheNight]

I could have sworn there were more ways for Warblades/Crusaders to get through incorporality. Hrm...Would the positive energy healing from crusader maneuvers get through to incorporeal undead?
The healing is not indicated to be positive energy. Actually, considering they're Ex, they're almost-certainly-not due to positive energy. And therefore would heal the undead as well as the living. Also, they specify that "you or an ally" is healed — probably couldn't use it on an enemy anyway.

[Lans]

I mentioned neither VoP nor character level to my knowledge, so I'm having trouble understanding what you're getting at.

That was a colorful language way of saying I thought the point was that the Warblade & Crusader class gave a way of dealing with this problem, which it apparently doesn't, which means the truenamer is actually the better class in this regard.

[Psyren]

That was a colorful language way of saying I thought the point was that the Warblade & Crusader class gave a way of dealing with this problem, which it apparently doesn't, which means the truenamer is actually the better class in this regard.

...provided you can make the skill checks, which is the problem.

[Grod_The_Giant]

There are a huge amount of Truenamer fixes floating here on the boards, I remember that two were particularly notorious; but I can't remember who did them :smallredface:

Kellus had a fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90961) that I've never really looked at, but I've heard that it alters the way the Truenaming system works.

Kyeudo's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120488) was based around lowering DCs and improving utterances. I ran a one-shot with it once; I wasn't amazingly strong, but I wasn't amazingly optimized, either. I had a few cool tricks, and I didn't have much trouble hitting DCs. He actually just posted an update (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217713)in the form of a PDF download. I believe the update has a second Truenaming class with a wizard-style "phrasebook."

[Tael]

What's written for them isn't bad at all. The problem is what isn't written.

Exactly! Like the DCs for Perfected Map utterances, or clarification for all of the utterances which simply don't have descriptions of what they are supposed to do! Or for that matter, a single decent Truenaming PrC!

[noparlpf]

Still pretty much poop.
There are so few utterances that at 20th level a Truenamer knows something like half of them or more anyway. To make it very slightly better, giving it access to all utterances of a given level by 20th level seems fine; just bump up the number learned each level or set points where they gain access to all utterances of a given level.
With heavy optimization, a Truenamer is playable in a low-op game. I think the one I built for a 16th-level one-shot was probably up to tier 5ish. With your idea, it might make low tier 4 with super-heavy optimization just because it would have a little bit more versatility.
Of course, that's my estimate based on very little familiarity with the tier system, but I think it should be fairly accurate because I usually play what are apparently tier 4-5 classes.

Edit:
Exactly! Like the DCs for Perfected Map utterances, or clarification for all of the utterances which simply don't have descriptions of what they are supposed to do! Or for that matter, a single decent Truenaming PrC!

They did give Perfected Map DCs in the errata or whatever. It's something like 15 + (2 per your level); I'm not going to go on a search for the errata at 2 AM with 60 pages of Nietzsche left to read and class at 9 AM.
But yeah. Using the Truenamer means working things out with the DM to make sure that half of its abilities even work.

I was very upset to read the Truenamer entry. When I first read it, I had just finished rereading the Earthsea books and was excited that WotC had brought the concept into 3.5. Then I read the entry and was sad that WotC had screwed up yet again.

I feel like this doesn't read like my writing. My English is weird at 2 AM after four pots of tea. Or maybe I just read weirdly at 2 AM after four pots of tea.

[Lans]

The perfected Map DCs are 25+5 per level of ability, and are not affected by character level or CR.

[Tyndmyr]

Which is why it's not viable at Tier 3, because it doesn't get that trick until level 20. Class tiers are not dependent on level, otherwise all classes would be T1 at level 1. The Truenamer sucks for 19 levels, gets a gamebreaking ability at level 20...that doesn't make it Tier 3.

He doesn't suck for 19 levels though. He's quite competent and flexible for them.

One notable flexibility I've observed in my current party is that, since he heals via fast healing, and the party is half living and half undead, he doesn't have to care about who is who, or who is lying about their race and why, he just hits the heal button, and they get healed. This isn't something that comes up in every party, but for my group, there's actually a lot of paranoia about borrowing potions and the like.

Another bennie? LA. Friendlies have a check based on HD, not CR. So...anyone who took a class with LA? Easy as hell to make checks for.

Lastly? You can use it to determine with a pretty fair accuracy the CR of an individual. This has actually come up once to realize that the listed CR of an "ally" was much, much higher than her purported race/class would indicate. I admit this is highly situational, and only of much use for fairly advanced players, but powers that make metagame information in game knowledge are rare, and correspondingly interesting.


Actually, most classes suck at level 1 (and this is as it should be), but there are a few that don't (which is a problem). The world of level 1 optimization is dominated by the druid, the warlock, the incarnate, and maybe the crusader.

The problem with the truenamer, meanwhile, is not that there isn't enough support for it in other books-- It's that it requires too much support from other books. Yeah, you can reliably hit DCs with an Item Familiar and Illumian and an item that isn't actually in any book but which gives a competence bonus to Truespeak and so on, but without that, you can't.

Not true. Already made a core + ToM only example earlier. Would not even need to roll for the checks for quite a few castings. It used none of those things, but instead, old standbys like Skill Focus: Truenaming.


To explain a bit more what I mean: I grade college classes. Even if a student absolutely bombs a test, we still give a couple of pity points for getting your name right. A level 20 human truenamer, using every optimization option available from Tome of Magic and core, still fails at that task 40% of the time.

CR 20 DC: 55

Nah.
Max ranks: 23
Starting int 18. +6 from enhancement, +5 inherent, +5 levels. Level 20 Int: 34, +2(or 3) from age for a +8 bonus. (+31)
+3 Skill Focus: Truenaming(+34)
+2 Masterwork item(+36)
+10 Amulet of the Silver Tongue(+46)
+5 1st level Utterance(+51)

This is not all of the tricks in core by a great deal, but we're already down to a 15% failure rate against equal CRed opponent with a very reasonable amount of investment. Consider that even a fairly high op char of most high tier stuff will typically have a 5% failure rate due to natural 1s on attack rolls and saves.

Oh, and you only have a 5% failure rate when targeting yourself. Not shabby at all.

Now, I point you to buffs. A LOT of buffs boost skills. Often, like with Prayer, they're spells that allies will frequently use anyway. If you're the only party caster, that's not as helpful, true...but as UMD is a class skill, popping off a helpful party buff from a wand is not the worst use of an early combat action, or better yet, a precombat action if possible.

Note that this is all fairly suboptimal, still. If you're level 20, you just cast Gate.


Oh, and that utterance that gives you +5 to skills? You have to use that first, before you can gain any benefit from it. With that 40% failure chance. Which only gets worse every time you have to use it. And right around where it ceases to be available (in the later encounters in a day) is also where you need it most, to support all your other likewise-more-difficult utterances. And gods help you if you have to actually fight the final boss of the dungeon (who might have a CR a few levels above you) after all of his mooks, as is the case in the vast majority of adventures.

Not true. Your own personal truename is always known as a truenamer. It's a class granted ability you can't avoid. That gives you a +2 on the checks for anything targeting yourself...which that buff is.

Nah, this is level 20. Boss fight? Gate in a Solar. Spend the rest of your rounds laughing. Free gates make all of these things not really a problem. As long as that button is available, you're pretty much good.

I would suggest focusing on pre-gate levels of Truenamer if you wish to point out perceived weakenesses.


Yeah. The Truenamer is such a low tier because the tier system assumes equal amounts of optimization for all classes. Unless the amount of optimization is enormous (doing everything at all possible to get Truenaming high), the Truenamer actually gets worse the more they level (due to encounter CR increases). And if you optimize everything else equally (best possible items with WBL, perfect feat choices, etc), the other classes can do a lot more.

Not necessarily. Friendly stuff targets HD, not CR. Perfected Map DCs don't work off either of these things. You have access to a greater variety of utterances as you level.

You'll note that the example above, while far from optimal, limited to core + ToM, uses only a single feat and leaves plenty of WBL unaccounted for(the inherent bonuses are expensive, but seriously, everyone wants those anyway).....but still, it's playable. And pretty good, even. You're always going to have a way to contribute to combat, even if certain combats might limit your options somewhat. This is not unlike many tier 3s.

With additional optimization, failure chance/hd worries entirely vanish, and you end up quickening things every round...which is again, like a high op tier 3. Both of those can, with extremely high op, be pretty awesome.


Martial Study for a Desert Wind move? 50% beats 0%.

Hell, if you're going to blow feats on martial study, etc....you don't have to be a ToB class to do that. This is a fairly weak option that doesn't even come from the class directly. It'd be much like my citing UMD as a truenamer class skill and pointing at magical items the truenamer can utilize.

And hell, at least that option(while only sort of class related) is potent.


That was a colorful language way of saying I thought the point was that the Warblade & Crusader class gave a way of dealing with this problem, which it apparently doesn't, which means the truenamer is actually the better class in this regard.

Incorporality is a pretty notable issue, too. It can be encountered relatively early and there's a decent sprinkling of foes with it. It's certainly not immensely common, but it's something that isn't at all weird or unusual to see in an actual game.

Note also that while Warblade and Crusader are certainly not bad classes at all(and I support their tier ranking), Maneuver's known are limited, esp for the crusader. Every one they take that gives them an ability like, say, flight tends to come at the expense of choosing more direct combat beatdown power. So, while they have a number of interesting tools available, they do have to make some tough decisions about which to have, not unlike the warlock.


Exactly! Like the DCs for Perfected Map utterances, or clarification for all of the utterances which simply don't have descriptions of what they are supposed to do! Or for that matter, a single decent Truenaming PrC!

Yeah...Fiendbinder is useable, but the logical entry is as straight wizard, not as Truenamer. If you want to actually, yknow, use Truenaming...you either take Truenamer 20 or Truenamer 19/dip of something else for whatever. I prefer the straight truenamer option....but this doesn't give you build versatility at all. Class-wise and utterance-wise, every effective truenamer looks more or less the same as the rest.

And while errata does exist, it's quite reasonable to criticize WoTC for leaving such an obvious thing off in the first place.

[Psyren]

Hell, if you're going to blow feats on martial study, etc....you don't have to be a ToB class to do that. This is a fairly weak option that doesn't even come from the class directly. It'd be much like my citing UMD as a truenamer class skill and pointing at magical items the truenamer can utilize.

The key difference is that items must be bought or found, whereas feats are free. Not to mention you're already dumping a sizeable chunk of your WBL on basic functionality, so the UMD example is moot anyway. You can't even craft your own items like a Warlock can to save cash; you're dependent on the DM to make your class work. This automatically invalidates any claim to T3 that the Truenamer possesses.

[Tyndmyr]

The key difference is that items must be bought or found, whereas feats are free. Not to mention you're already dumping a sizeable chunk of your WBL on basic functionality, so the UMD example is moot anyway. You can't even craft your own items like a Warlock can to save cash; you're dependent on the DM to make your class work. This automatically invalidates any claim to T3 that the Truenamer possesses.

The amulet is fairly important, as is the enhancement stat booster, yes. This is a fairly reasonable amount of wealth for a person to purchase to make their class function more or less as advertised. It's not unlike having a magic weapon, which is assumed at certain levels of class design.

Feats may be free, yes...but they are still significantly valuable. Unless it's a bonus feat provided by a class, expending feats is not a class feature, and using that to justify a tier is a bit dodgy. Sure, in practice, people will spend feats to generally boost their stuff, but it's no more a component of your class than WBL is.

[Psyren]

The amulet is fairly important, as is the enhancement stat booster, yes. This is a fairly reasonable amount of wealth for a person to purchase to make their class function more or less as advertised. It's not unlike having a magic weapon, which is assumed at certain levels of class design.

A class being assumed to have something helpful, and being required to have it to function, are two different situations though.


Feats may be free, yes...but they are still significantly valuable. Unless it's a bonus feat provided by a class, expending feats is not a class feature, and using that to justify a tier is a bit dodgy. Sure, in practice, people will spend feats to generally boost their stuff, but it's no more a component of your class than WBL is.

Martial Study is tied to IL, which both Warblades and Crusaders get full progression in. So the link between the class and the feat is significantly stronger than you make it out to be.

Secondly - because Warblades and Crusaders can handle more or less everything else with maneuvers alone, they have more feats to spend on niche cases than lower-tier classes. If a Warblade wants to blow a feat on a Desert Wind move to potentially roast a ghost, he won't be hurting for effectiveness in other areas, for the same reason that a Binder can spend a feat Craft: Basketweaving and still shine.

Finally, all a Warblade or Crusader needs is a common +1 weapon, or even a +1 ghost touch weapon, and he is set for life - even with such a low bonus, his maneuvers can workhorse the rest of it and no amount of incorporeality will ever be an issue for him again. Meanwhile as a Truenamer, you need to scrape up every bonus to Truespeak your DM throws your way in order to use your utterances reliably, never mind to be able to quicken them, because your ability to use your powers actually grows harder as you level.

This is what it means to be T3+ - You can be useful in any situation without the DM spoonfeeding you specific gear and/or access to Magic-Mart. Certainly WBL (and will help, but to reach that tier or higher you must to be able to pull your weight when it is scarce or absent.

[Tyndmyr]

A lower truenaming check means a greater effective miss chance. This is not unlike the greater miss chance and/or lower damage due to using a subpar magic weapon. It continues to fuction decently when there's a low-moderate chance of failure. Likewise, melee continues to function at a reduced capacity if they're using a +1 weapon at level 20.

Yes, if you dial either of these things(WBL for either class) all the way to zero, both classes suddenly have some pretty notable issues, but this is not really a standard way to play, and is not how classes should be ranked. Arguably, they're not, since I've shown that existing classes would not be ranked where they currently are without WBL.

Artificer is most certainly Tier 3+. It's pretty highly dependent on WBL.

[noparlpf]

The perfected Map DCs are 25+5 per level of ability, and are not affected by character level or CR.

Right, that's what it was. I couldn't remember whether it was based on class level or on utterance level.

[noparlpf]

Let's see...at 16th level I had a +84 Truespeak modifier. I did make use of an Item Familiar and I did make use of the custom-crafted +10 competence item.

[Psyren]

Artificer is most certainly Tier 3+. It's pretty highly dependent on WBL.

But not specific items (Silver Tongue et al.) If your DM decides the treasure you find is a +2 greatclub because that's what it would make sense for the ogre chief to be carrying, the Artificer can repurpose it into something helpful. The Truenamer... not so much. He has to either hope there's a magic mart in his vicinity or that the enemy the party just took down was practicing truespeech as a side job.

[Tyndmyr]

Let's see...at 16th level I had a +84 Truespeak modifier. I did make use of an Item Familiar and I did make use of the custom-crafted +10 competence item.

Right. That's a high-op Truenamer. You no doubt had quicken, etc, and actually having to roll for checks was something you pretty much never had to actually do. Such a Truenamer performs pretty fantastically. The level 6 one in my party had a +55ish to checks on creation...and it boosted some more over the last four levels(though I don't know exactly how much). Even though he didn't have an Item Familiar.

Such levels of optimization are pretty solid and the char is no doubt funto play, but they are well beyond what is needed to achieve a basic level of functionality.

The amulet is the specific item that's thorny. Int boosters are quite common, and not an issue. However, its really only a problem if you start at a quite low level(ie, not enough wbl to have one), don't get enough downtime to have a single item made, and don't have a crafter in the group. It's not an especially expensive, rare or difficult item to craft as magic items go.

[Lans]

The truenamer can craft the Amulet if he takes the CWI feat. Its about the only thing that he can craft granted, but that floats him for the first 12 levels or so



Nah.
Max ranks: 23
Starting int 18. +6 from enhancement, +5 inherent, +5 levels. Level 20 Int: 34, +2(or 3) from age for a +8 bonus. (+31)
+3 Skill Focus: Truenaming(+34)
+2 Masterwork item(+36)
+10 Amulet of the Silver Tongue(+46)
+5 1st level Utterance(+51)

Your math is off on the intelligence, you have 12 before age. So you should have 51 before the utterance, so you can use that on a 2.

Plus you can gate something that turns you into a creature that gets a racial boost to truenaming.

[Story Time]

...trying to turn the topic to something a little more friendly toward the original post...and simply because I don't know, how many of these amulets can a truenamer make and use at the same time? Are there other items that the truenamer can make and use to enhance their class ability? These questions are specifically intended to avoid any normal intelligence boosting items, item familiars, et cetera.

[Lans]

With out an artificer changing the bonus to luck or something, only 1.

[Person_Man]

I think it's a good idea. But why not go all of the way, and abolish all of their stupid laws, including the Skill check aspect of it, while keeping the core of what is a very cool and fluffy concept?

At first level, you gain access to all of the Lexicon of the Evolving Mind equal to your class level. At third level you gain access to all of the Lexicon of the Crafted Tool. At 8th level you gain access to all of the Perfected Map. With 10 minutes of meditation, you can prepare a number of Utterances from each category equal to the number learned on the Truenamer chart, with some additional reasonable chart to make sure you're not using 6th level Utterances too early.

To use an Utterance successfully, you must succeed on a level check: d20 + your Truenamer level + (1/2 of your levels and hit dice from all other sources) + your Charisma bonus + your Int bonus if you know the target's true name, with a DC of 10 + target's hit dice + the target's Wisdom bonus (if the target is unwilling) + (2*number of times you've tried to effect that target in the last 8 hours). You can Quicken an Utterance (make it a Swift Action) by adding +10 to the check. Using an Utterance is a Supernatural effect (Spell Resistance doesn't apply, though Anti-magic does). Utterance checks are uneffected by bonuses ad nerfs from all sources (unless they directly effect your level, hit die, attribute, etc), such as Marshal, magic items, Aid Another checks, etc.

I'm sure that someone with a better grasp on the math can come up with a better equation, but you get the idea.

[Psyren]

Honestly, the "skill check casting" part of the class is fine - Kyeudo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11971747#post11971747) and Kellus proved that. The DC and Laws simply needed tweaking.

If you want a fun Truenamer with minimal departure from the source material, I encourage you (and everyone) to use Kyeudo's fix.


...trying to turn the topic to something a little more friendly toward the original post...and simply because I don't know, how many of these amulets can a truenamer make and use at the same time? Are there other items that the truenamer can make and use to enhance their class ability? These questions are specifically intended to avoid any normal intelligence boosting items, item familiars, et cetera.

Well, you can physically wear as many amulets as you want, but in terms of benefiting from their magic your maximum is one.

[Story Time]

...seeing that so much...ado has been made about the two laws I decided to take a look at them. For fun! :smallbiggrin: This is the result. An off-the-top-of-my-head first draft of what I might pinch the laws into. They're probably really awful, but here they are anyway.


Law of Resistance:
All verbal utterances obey the Law of Resistance. The first time a character speaks an utterance, the Player will calculate the DC as described under Speaking a Truename on page ###. However, most truenamers have an inferior grasp of truespeech in comparison to the Universe. When a truenamer uses an incomplete, incorrect, or otherwise confusing noun in truespeech the Universe will begin to resist any subsequent uses of such improper grammar. Mechanically, this is reflected by an increase to the DC by 2 for each time a Truenamer uses an utterance. This increase only lasts until the end of each day. Only successful uses of truespeech will increase the resistance, the difficulty, imposed on a truenamer. The Universe does not often know what to do when exposed to incomprehensible gibberish.

If a truenamer knows, or uses, a subject's personal truename along with their utterance, the Universe will not resist such impeccable grammar. The difficulty will not rise for a character who uses a target's personal truename in conjunction with an utterance.

Law of Sequence:
All verbal utterances obey the Law of Sequence. When a truenamer uses their art the Universe listens. The Universe then attempts to bend reality to the will of the truenamer. This shifting of time and shape must settle within the Univese before another command is made. This is the essence of the Law of Sequence. Mechanically, what it means is that a character may not speak an exact collection of verbs and nouns again until the first attempt, the first sequence, is complete.

The Universe possesses perfect understanding of truenames and truespeech. When a truenamer uses correct grammar the Universe can easily discern between the verbs and nouns used for a normal utterance and its reverse. Therefore a truenamer may use a single utterance, and its reverse, at the same time. A truenamer may also apply a single utterance to separate opponents or allies. As per the Law of Sequence, however, a single version of an utterance may not be applied to the same subject again until the duration of that utterance has elapsed.

[golem1972]

We left the law of resistance as is (except for the higher resistance for spell naming).

Our version of the law of sequence is very similar. You may use an utterance on as many different targets as you want, but you cannot effect a target with multiple uses of the same utterance at the same time.

[The Random NPC]

...seeing that so much...ado has been made about the two laws I decided to take a look at them. For fun! :smallbiggrin: This is the result. An off-the-top-of-my-head first draft of what I might pinch the laws into. They're probably really awful, but here they are anyway.


Law of Resistance:
All verbal utterances obey the Law of Resistance. The first time a character speaks an utterance, the Player will calculate the DC as described under Speaking a Truename on page ###. However, most truenamers have an inferior grasp of truespeech in comparison to the Universe. When a truenamer uses an incomplete, incorrect, or otherwise confusing noun in truespeech the Universe will begin to resist any subsequent uses of such improper grammar. Mechanically, this is reflected by an increase to the DC by 2 for each time a Truenamer uses an utterance. This increase only lasts until the end of each day. Only successful uses of truespeech will increase the resistance, the difficulty, imposed on a truenamer. The Universe does not often know what to do when exposed to incomprehensible gibberish.

If a truenamer knows, or uses, a subject's personal truename along with their utterance, the Universe will not resist such impeccable grammar. The difficulty will not rise for a character who uses a target's personal truename in conjunction with an utterance.

Law of Sequence:
All verbal utterances obey the Law of Sequence. When a truenamer uses their art the Universe listens. The Universe then attempts to bend reality to the will of the truenamer. This shifting of time and shape must settle within the Univese before another command is made. This is the essence of the Law of Sequence. Mechanically, what it means is that a character may not speak an exact collection of verbs and nouns again until the first attempt, the first sequence, is complete.

The Universe possesses perfect understanding of truenames and truespeech. When a truenamer uses correct grammar the Universe can easily discern between the verbs and nouns used for a normal utterance and its reverse. Therefore a truenamer may use a single utterance, and its reverse, at the same time. A truenamer may also apply a single utterance to separate opponents or allies. As per the Law of Sequence, however, a single version of an utterance may not be applied to the same subject again until the duration of that utterance has elapsed.

I like your Law of Resistance, it gives you a reason to learn personal truenames.

[Story Time]

I like your Law of Resistance, it gives you a reason to learn personal truenames.

Thank you.

Yes, that was ( almost :smallbiggrin: ) the entire point of making it. Under the Personal Truename section of the manual it mentions that Personal Truenames are difficult to pronounce and increase the DC of using such a check by two. Which...is great thematically, but makes no sense from the mechanical perspective. Learning a secret name should give a benefit of some kind to the truenamer. And the Law of Resistance seemed like a good place to start.

Really, I think it's just a simple errata of one word to change increase to decrease. Sure, we can keep the part that it's harder to say, but the knowledge that the truenamer gains from his research of truenames should drive his or her power forward rather than cripple him or her with a circumstance restriction.

I...would also like to apologize. Typing this out is more for me than it is for the thread. It seems like I'm already developing an opinion about the material. It would be of great interest to me if someone who knew the material better, and the math, could do some generic calculations for the truenamer with this correction to the Law of Resistance. My questions would be, roughly, "How much benefit to the DC would a truenamer gain by learning his or her personal truename," and, "...personal truenames of allies," and, "...personal truenames of enemies?"

[The Random NPC]

Since you would be pumping Truespeak anyways, most 'namers can cast buffs all day anyways. With this change Truespeak checks would only increase by 2 x the number of mooks you fight at most. They would probably research the Truenames of any recurring or famous enemies they expect to face. That would guarantee that they could act in combat, but really, without better utterances there isn't much you can do to help them out.

[Story Time]

Well, yes...

What I was hoping for was more of a: ( DC X TS ) = ( ?? ).
Where DC would be the difficulty check increased by a successful truespeak; two, in other words. TS would be the number of times a truenamer would use an utterance in a level appropriate encounter. This would be the ordinary way of doing things suggested in the manual. With this number we could calculate how much savings a truenamer might experience with a change in the Law of Resistance like I out-lined.

But that can sit on the back-burner for the moment.

Like the title of this thread suggests it might not be an issue of better utterances so much as more utterances. The more utterances the less hindrance from the Law of Sequence. Hm. Maybe I should think about that a little bit.

[Doug Lampert]

And he listed Truenamer as sub Tier 6. Which is wildly inaccurate. I'm not sure why you're stuck on the T3 -> T4 bit...Tier 3 is about accurate. It's a limited list caster, with a specialized skill(Gate) that can solve encounters by itself, but generally this isn't a problem. Has a few options outside of combat as well as in it. Fits it like a glove.

Lies. Commoner is Tier 6, and Truenamer is clearly better. He lists Truenamer as the class without a tier because the basic scaling mechanism doesn't work.

Either loads of skill boosters are available (like the highly dubious masterwork truenaming item), and the class can hit far higher CR creatures with unavoidable effects, or such things aren't and the class is nearly useless.

No tier isn't "completely useless", it's "so dependent on optimization level and GM decisions that you can't rank it".

DougL

[Zaq]

I...would also like to apologize. Typing this out is more for me than it is for the thread. It seems like I'm already developing an opinion about the material. It would be of great interest to me if someone who knew the material better, and the math, could do some generic calculations for the truenamer with this correction to the Law of Resistance. My questions would be, roughly, "How much benefit to the DC would a truenamer gain by learning his or her personal truename," and, "...personal truenames of allies," and, "...personal truenames of enemies?"

Well, that depends on how easy you make it to learn personal truenames. The rules in ToM aren't quite unusable, but they're damned close. It takes way too long to research personal truenames . . . it's worse than crafting most magic items, really. The cost is also nontrivial, for the most part. The majority of Truenamers wouldn't even bother to learn the names of their partymates without some kind of major incentive tacked on to do so, and even with huge bonuses tacked on, I can only imagine spending the time and effort necessary to track down the personal truename of MAYBE one BBEG per campaign. Anything else is just too much work, as written.

I firmly believe that any changes to what personal truenames do should be accompanied by changes to how you learn them, because as it is, the amount of effort you have to put into learning them is prodigious.

Yes, it's possible to gloss over the vast periods of time necessary to research names, but I don't want to consider that to be a baseline assumption.

[MeeposFire]

Lies. Commoner is Tier 6, and Truenamer is clearly better. He lists Truenamer as the class without a tier because the basic scaling mechanism doesn't work.

Either loads of skill boosters are available (like the highly dubious masterwork truenaming item), and the class can hit far higher CR creatures with unavoidable effects, or such things aren't and the class is nearly useless.

No tier isn't "completely useless", it's "so dependent on optimization level and GM decisions that you can't rank it".

DougL

The biggest issue is that the tiers assume comparing roughly equal optimization for every class. The truenamer breaks this system since its power changes vastly depending on your optimization. A low OP druid has more tricks than a low OP fighter. The same is true at high OP. A truenamer is different. At low OP it is barely usable worse than a fighter. At higher OP (where the checks are gimmies for almost the entire day whether you quicken or not) it does much better and moves ahead of lower tier classes. No other class changes that much in its use and in fact no other class so needs optimization to even work at all.

[Story Time]

Well, that depends on how easy you make it to learn personal truenames.

Reading that section under Researching a Personal Truename certainly feels like it is full of typographical errors. If errata corrections were issued it would almost certainly say, "5 + ( creature’s CR), or 5 + ( HD)." This seems to me to be consistent with the requirement to produce a number of successes equal to half of the subjects' Hit Dice. Perhaps it was omitted that, "For every two points that a truenamer succeeds past the DC in researching a truename, they gain one extra success in the number of successes required to discover that creature's personal truename."

Also, one thousand gold in resources was almost certainly intended to be, "100 gp." This sentence, "Unless you’re using magical divinations to aid your research, you can’t even attempt the Knowledge checks," almost certainly came from the first draft of the class and would not survive through subsequent edits.

But...all of that is just from a first glance. I haven't had the time to poke through the chart yet. It's probably got similar typos in it.


By the way...Hi, Zaq! It's nice to meet you. :smallbiggrin:

[Tyndmyr]

Lies. Commoner is Tier 6, and Truenamer is clearly better. He lists Truenamer as the class without a tier because the basic scaling mechanism doesn't work.

Either loads of skill boosters are available (like the highly dubious masterwork truenaming item), and the class can hit far higher CR creatures with unavoidable effects, or such things aren't and the class is nearly useless.

No tier isn't "completely useless", it's "so dependent on optimization level and GM decisions that you can't rank it".

DougL

I've already demonstrated that you can make a functional truenamer using only core + ToM, and without using UMD. That is...fairly marginal optimization. Sure, if you dump int or don't actually train Truespeak, you will make life difficult for yourself.

This is no different than a wizard dumping int and failing to train spellcraft. He will be an incompetent if he does so.

It can be ranked. The inclusion of most sources do not notably affect it, and it does not absolutely require anything outside of the book it was printed in + core to be functional. That's a very reasonable minimal level, and one that MANY classes require.


I do agree that personal truenames in ToM are something that, in practice, players tend to just not bother with. The payoff is minimal at best. Patching that up or removing it entirely is advisable, as is expanding the total Utterance pool.

[Story Time]

In the spirit of the original post, and partly to respond to recent posts, I've started typing out some utterance concepts.

...what are the chances of my escaping this huge black pool of insanity before it's too late? :smalleek:

[The Random NPC]

Much like a black hole, once you are in, all avenues of escape lie in the past.

[Psyren]

In the spirit of the original post, and partly to respond to recent posts, I've started typing out some utterance concepts.

...what are the chances of my escaping this huge black pool of insanity before it's too late? :smalleek:

If by "black pool of insanity" you mean "homebrew" there's a whole board where you can explore these urges to your heart's content :smallwink:

I'd read the two primary Truenamer fixes first though - no sense reinventing the wheel. (Kyeudo's and Kellus'.)

[Story Time]

Much like a black hole, once you are in, all avenues of escape lie in the past.

Haha! Thanks...? I think? :smalltongue:



If by "black pool of insanity" you mean "homebrew" there's a whole board where you can explore these urges to your heart's content :smallwink:

I'd read the two primary Truenamer fixes first though - no sense reinventing the wheel. (Kyeudo's and Kellus'.)

Home-brew... I almost feel like asking, "Do I really have to?" I'll admit that my opinion, like others' opinions seem to be, is leaning toward, "Lexicons require more utterances," and, "Truenamers require greater ability to use utterances in general."

Also, didn't Psyren already tout both of those home-brews on this page? I hadn't looked at Kyeudo's home-brew before posting in this thread, but I did since. And...to be completely honest...it wasn't because of Psyren. ...no offense is meant of course.

Since Kyeudo's home-brew does not alter either of the Laws in a way that I find pleasant, I probably won't use it. Neither did I give the utterances an in-depth screening. I went and looked straight at the laws first. Neither do I mean any offense toward Kyeudo in general. I...simply think that personal truenames should mean both power and liberation for the truenamer rather than quasi-eternal constraints.

...I suppose what I really think the truenamer requires is errata correction. Not much more than correcting or adjusting what I think the truenamer was meant to do in the original manual. Zaq's opinions, and others, have been pretty helpful in that regard since those persons have actually played a truenamer while I have not. ...Maybe I should make a thread devoted to this topic... ??:smallconfused:??

[Tr011]

Now, obviously, this wouldn't fix their horrible problem with the Law of Sequence and the unpleasantness of meeting the ever-rising DCs, but it would at least give them a minor boost.


If you can cast the same spell 5-10 times (and more if not using defensive etc.) that's nothing to mock about. IMO Truenamers (RAW, no fixes) with a bit optimization can be played.

[Zaq]

If you can cast the same spell 5-10 times (and more if not using defensive etc.) that's nothing to mock about. IMO Truenamers (RAW, no fixes) with a bit optimization can be played.

For the record, I, for one, have never said otherwise.

I have said that they're frustrating and usually not worth the effort, depending on the group. I still can't in good conscience recommend playing one. But no, anyone who says they're flat-out unplayable has clearly never delved deeply into them—not that I blame them.

[Psyren]

Also, didn't Psyren already tout both of those home-brews on this page?

Why yes, Psyren did, because they bear repeating :smallsmile:

It's fine if you don't like them; just wanted to be sure you read them.



...I suppose what I really think the truenamer requires is errata correction.

You and everybody else :smalltongue:
But unfortunately, the class needs more than that. The mechanic itself was poorly executed; it takes a total rewrite (again, like the ones proposed) whereas "errata" is just a tidying up of inconsistencies and clarification of vague terms.

[Story Time]

The mechanic itself was poorly executed.

By the word mechanic I assume that you mean most all of the mechanical material related to the truenamer starting with both Laws, the Personal Truename Difficulty Rule, and the lack of items to augment truespeak difficulty for the truenamer. If that is what you meant, then I agree.

I haven't read Kellus's material yet. I'll likely have to make myself read it at some point. No offense to Kellus, either, of course.


Um, I'm not going to quote Zaq about this because it's more of a general question, but...how many players would actually recommend the truenamer without any kind of corrections? What does that say about the class in a general sense?