9th level psionics, 9th level arcane, 9th level divine [Archive]

big teej

2011-10-19, 11:44 AM

greetings playgrounders,

I recall awhile back seeing something about "triple 9s"

that is, a character that has full access to 9th level spells from the sorc/wiz, cleric, and psion lsit.

I am interested in trying to build such a monstrosity.

but I'm hardly strong in the op-fu department given my preference for low-op games (sword and board for the win!)

so I come here for help and to find out if such a thing is even possible with the sources I have available

here's my list (anything NOT explicitly listed is banned)
PHB
PHB II
DMG
DMG II
MM
MM II
MM III
UA
BOVD
BOED
A&EG
races of the wild
races of stone
complete adventurer
dieties and demigods
cityscape
expanded psionics handbook
psionics handbook
Magic of incarnum
Oriental adventures
masters of the wild
defenders of the faith
sword and fist
song and silence
enemies and allies
tome and blood

one last note, our group prefers to use 3.0 psionics, just fyi.

sooo tell me, can I make a "triple 9s" build with the sources at hand?
how so?

Tyndmyr

2011-10-19, 12:06 PM

Sooo, exactly how much cheese are we comfortable with, and how does your group feel about accelerated casting classes?

The 3.0 psionics bit is likely to be the limiting part. Ur-Priest accelerates divine casting effectively, and theurge classes exist...but you've got a lack of complete books available to pull some of my favorite tricks from, and UP is only in BoVD and CD.

And, dragonwrought kobold shenanigans are also inaccessible with that source list, so you're going to not have that option available either.

Honestly, unless gestalt is in play, I wouldn't bother with trying it.

big teej

2011-10-19, 12:12 PM

Sooo, exactly how much cheese are we comfortable with,

the bare minimum required to accomplish the build.

Flickerdart

2011-10-19, 12:26 PM

So...you're sourcing both the PsH and XPH? How does that even work?

tyckspoon

2011-10-19, 12:30 PM

Arcane + Divine is simple enough with Ur-Priest and theurging.. I wanna say you're looking at some unholy application of Ardent/Beholder Mage/Ur-Priest. You'll probably need Inspire Greatness/Psychic Reformation/Chaos Shuffle cheese to meet all the prereqs in a timely fashion, but.. mm.. Beholder Mage 1/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8 gets you arcane and divine 9s in 11 levels. Leaves 9 levels to try and get the Psionics in; Ardent with ML-boosting stuff can select 9th-level psionic powers (depending on exactly how you interpret 'must be able to manifest a power of that level'- if on-the-spot things like Overchannel and Wild Surge qualify then it's pretty easy), although their augment caps and PP supply will lag.

And almost none of that is available in your given sources, so I'm going to guess that it's not possible given your restrictions.

Tyndmyr

2011-10-19, 12:31 PM

I prefer Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/wiz prc whatever 4 for a straight up dual 9 setup. From that, you can trim a level of MT and still have ninth level divine spells, albeit less of them. You also can drop one level of wizard/wiz prc without losing 9th's there.

That gives you two levels of your desired psionic class to get you started. If you push the Ur Priest/MT till later in the built, you can replace the mindbender with other stuff for easier prereq times.

Can't recall the prereqs for cerebremancer, but assuming you can meet them after two levels in your psionic class, you could fold 5 levels in that build...that'll get you arcane and divine 9ths and psionic 4ths. Wait, it's second level powers. That requires more.

Hmmm, possible munchkinry with prereqs for cerebremancer might get you in there earlier. I believe the typical entry is wizard 3/psion 3/cereb x...but Sanctum Spell can certainly lower than to wizard 1.

We can re-use the Sanctum Spell trick for MT too...

So, Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 7/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 8.

That gets us 9ths with Ur-Priest, 8th level with wiz, and 5th as Psion.

We really need to squeeze in another level of Cerebremancer instead of Psion(two, with heavy skill point shenanigans, would be superior), to avoid killing our wizard casting, but I don't know an early entry trick for powers unless the DM rules than Sanctum Spell/etc works on powers. Which, let's be honest, they probably won't.

If we're just going for technical 9ths, it gets a lot easier, as all your spells count as 1 level higher in your sanctum...but that's not as impressive.

Chaos shuffle would be handy, but I don't see fiendish codex in the list.

So...not quite there yet, but we're not terribly far off.

Edit: Tyk, Beholder Mage would get me there, but Lords of Madness isn't on the approved list...

Flickerdart

2011-10-19, 12:37 PM

Early entry with the psionic class is reasonably simple, WBL permitting - buy a casting of Psychic Chirurgery, then get level drained. You didn't learn this power as part of your levels, so there's no reason to assume it goes away when you de-level, you just can't use it anymore. Then you Overchannel or Wild Surge to get your ML up and presto, 2nd level powers as a Psion or Wilder 2.

DonutBoy12321

2011-10-19, 12:41 PM

Hmm... Is there a 3.0 Erudite? If so, I have the solution. Quite simple, limited cheese, and everything you need.
First, the Spell to Power Erudite variant, with Magic Mantle if possible. You'll need limited wisdom, but not much. You'll solve the fact that Ur-Priest uses Wisdom later.
You take the Apprentice (criminal) feat at first level for access to Bluff.
You spend your time getting the skills for Ur-Priest, Geomancer, and Psychic Theurge, as well as keeping Spellcraft and Psycraft high. At sixth level, take your first two levels of Ur-Priest, then your first level of Geomancer. You can use your Geomancer to advance either Erudite or Ur-Priest. Now that you have Geomancer levels, you can use Intelligence for Ur-Priest casting.
Now is your first level of Psychic Theurge. Continue Theurge for seven or eight levels, until your Ur-Priest is fully advanced.
Yay! Now at level 20, you have level 9 casting in everything!

Edit: Crap, no Complete Psionic in source list.

Tyndmyr

2011-10-19, 12:44 PM

That works, and gets us to Wiz 1/Psion 2/Cereb 8/Ur Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 8.

Effective casting levels:
Wizard 17(9th)
Psion 10(5th)
Ur Priest 9(9th)

Is there a handy divine/psionic theurge class to give us more flexibility?

Bloodgruve

2011-10-19, 12:44 PM

I am not too familiar with Erudite but wouldn't the Spell to Power ACF give access to nearly all spells/powers in the game? This is 3.5 but I don't see why it can't be used with 3.0

Blood~

Tyndmyr

2011-10-19, 12:45 PM

I am not too familiar with Erudite but wouldn't the Spell to Power ACF give access to nearly all spells/powers in the game?

Blood~

Spell to Power Erudite would, yes...but it's kind of easy mode. Not unlike circumventing the arcane/divine limitation with Archivist. If he just wants access to all the toys, thats aright...but it doesn't actually give you arcane/divine casting.

Dusk Eclipse

2011-10-19, 12:50 PM

Umm well I think something like Savage Bard/Ardent/Ur-priest/Psionic Theurge/Sublime Chord/Cerebremancer (advancing Sublime Chord)...

Crap no Complete Arcane nor Complete Psionic... that does kills my build...

Edit:.. Still my build would be Mad as hell needing at least 19 in all three mental stats... well I've found a build that can actually use a belt of magnificence to it's full extent.

Renchard

2011-10-19, 01:08 PM

Maybe something along the lines of Ardent5/Ur-priest2/Psychic Theurge 2/Nar Demonbinder 1/Mystic Theurge 2/Cerebremancer 4/Psychic Theurge 3-6?

By my calculations, that would give you 15 Ardent levels (with the last 2 at least at ML 18+, to take 9th level powers), 10 levels of Ur-Priest casting, and 7 levels of Nar Demonbinder. Add in Versatile Spellcaster to cast 9th level spells from NarD slots.

I would have to check all the feat pre-reqs(AFB), but I think with flaws it will work.

Kaje

2011-10-19, 01:09 PM

Now that you have Geomancer levels, you can use Intelligence for Ur-Priest casting.

You need 10 levels of Geomancer to use Int for Ur-Priest ninths.

Psyren

2011-10-19, 01:30 PM

one last note, our group prefers to use 3.0 psionics, just fyi.

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m633/PsyrenY/Whyyyyyy.jpg

faceroll

2011-10-19, 01:44 PM

one last note, our group prefers to use 3.0 psionics, just fyi.

This kills the Psyren.

flabort

2011-10-19, 02:15 PM

Here's the easiest way (but it requires the entire group to bring super-over complicated builds, and the DM's approval): Run a game of Tristalt.

Since it's become less obsure recently, a lot of people know what I'm talking about, but if you don't, allow me to explain:

Gestalt takes the best of two classes each level, and is written in the format ClassA X/PrC Y//ClassB X+Y. It uses the best BaB, and saves, and gains all the features of both sides. It is a higher powered variant, and usually requires the entire party to use it.
Tristalt is a variant of Gestalt. "WTH?", you may ask. "A variant of a Variant?"
Well, yes. The difference between Gestalt and Tristalt is the number of classes you get access to each level. "Tri" is a word for "Three", so that is a clue: You get three classes.

So, at first level, you could be a psion//wizard//Archivist (available through the Web if you don't have the right book), and advance them all right up to level 20, getting 9ths in all of them, with no multiclassing or prestige classes. Or Urpriest/mystic theurge cheese. You can still use it If you want (replace Archivist with a non divine class), but Tristalt makes it unnecessary.

This requires a variant rule, which the entire party must use, though, so it's not recommended for what you're asking.
It's relatively simple, compared to the builds the above have been coming up with, but likely won't fly at all. If you're DM is willing to run a Tristalt, WhooHoo! this is a REALLY high powered variant, so a little more cheese won't hurt you anyways. You might even need it to survive, the DM will be throwing much higher level challenges at you for less XP.

But otherwise, listen to the experts. It's the smartest choice in most cases, and I'm not an expert :smalltongue:

Flickerdart

2011-10-19, 02:53 PM

Little Brother

2011-10-19, 03:15 PM

The only way I know how to do it is Ardent 1(Magic Mantle)/Disciplined(Magic) Spell to Power Edudite 3/Cerebromancer 7/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 3/Ur-Priest 4, but you don't have CompPsi, so I got nothing.

And why in the name of bacon would you use 3.0 Psionics?

big teej

2011-10-19, 06:35 PM

unless I missed something....

it seems I've accidentally posed an impossible challenge.

and for all of you getting caught on fire over the 3.0 psionics thing.

if it makes you feel any better, we use a mix of 3.0 and 3.5 (but heavier on 3.0) psionics.

if it doesn't, feel free to message me (or post here as a group again) and I'll explian further here, though that's more than a little bit afield of the original topic.

Psyren

2011-10-19, 06:42 PM

unless I missed something....

it seems I've accidentally posed an impossible challenge.

Impossible challenges are easy to craft if the available books are restricted. The less sources there are, the harder it is to realize certain concepts mechanically; that's just how the game works. (Not saying you are at fault, of course.)

Thrice Dead Cat

2011-10-19, 06:45 PM

To be fair, the challenge is doable if we extend the levels past 20. It's "the minimum required" with these sources, assuming you can hack the Epic Level Handbook back in via SRD wizardry.

gkathellar

2011-10-19, 06:46 PM

Draz74

2011-10-19, 06:50 PM

Are Phaerimm in the list of allowed sources? Should be pretty trivial with a Phaerimm Ardent / Ur-Priest / Psychic Theurge.

Little Brother

2011-10-19, 06:52 PM

If you have access to retraining from PHB2 it's not very complicated, but by some standards retraining may be the most intensive cheese possible.

Still, Psion 1/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Ur-Priest 1/Cerebremancer 8/Psychic Theurge 8 FTW.Pretty sure it doesn't work. You need two levels of BM for second level spells, and same with Ur-Priest. That'd get you 8th level powers.

gkathellar

2011-10-19, 07:03 PM

Little Brother

2011-10-19, 07:10 PM

gkathellar

2011-10-19, 07:20 PM

Uh, no. You cannot retrain class levels, and the rebuild rules say that if it "was not an option" at the time of taking, you cannot rebuild into it. So, no, it doesn't work.

I seem to remember it does, but I'm AFB. Again, if you don't buy it there's an incredible amount of cheese for faking higher-level spells than you actually have. Two-level increases take work, but a one-level increase only needs Sanctum Spell.

dspeyer

2011-10-19, 07:43 PM

Psion 10 / Thrallherd 10
Your two thralls are a 17th level wizard and a 17th level cleric.

Break the action economy while you're at it :-)

sreservoir

2011-10-19, 07:56 PM

arcane spells can be obtained up to 9th with enough feats (and if you have a divine CL, you don't even need practiced spellcaster), provided that you have at least two spells per day to start with of any level. get your fix of psionics with level drain and chirurgery shenanigans, and manifest using some combination overchannel and ML boosters; get your 9th divines from apostle of peace -- 8 and versatile spellcaster should work.

wizard 1/psion 17, get any applicable 9ths chirurged in, get drained to 12th, take 8 levels of apostle of peace. you have 11 levels of psions, so you have a need a total of 6 in +ML or -pp cost; +3 overchannel, torc of power preservation, and earth power get you to 5; you'll need just one more.

Tyndmyr

2011-10-19, 08:06 PM

Retraining lets you change out a level so long as you still meet the prerequisites for all your remaining PrCs. Since an Ur-Priest 1/Psychic Theurge 1 casts as a an Ur-Priest 2, it still qualifies once you switch out your 2nd Ur-Priest level. Yeah, lolwut — it's is basically an optional rule for cheating PrC prerequisites

But if you don't buy that particular cheese, there's always Sanctum Spell, or any one of a million ways to boost your spell's levels.

Yeah, no. It must have been something you could have selected at that time. This is useful for ditching Sanctum Spell after we no longer need it, but that's about it.

Sanctum Spell is the efficient way to handle early entry to the casting classes, but by RAW, it doesn't touch psionics. Also note that the theurge classes have skill requirements that require a minimum of three levels without dusk giant cheese.

Not to mention, the sourcebook for Sublime Chord isn't even in the approved list! This is not only using banned sources, it's not even questionably legal by RAW.

You CAN retrain in this fashion via level drain, but doing this means needing more exp in total, and I presume that this is on a 20 level exp budget, and thus, significant level drain is problematic.

big teej

2011-10-20, 01:24 AM

Impossible challenges are easy to craft if the available books are restricted. The less sources there are, the harder it is to realize certain concepts mechanically; that's just how the game works. (Not saying you are at fault, of course.)

yea I know, I just wanna state for the record I didn't do it on purpose :smalltongue:

I just knew if I was gonna pull it off I'd need the help of the playground.

oh, and before I forget, for those of you wondering how we're managing to use 3.0 and 3.5 psionics at the same time.

I'll summarize it for you as I'm waaaaay to tired and have waaaaaaaaaaay to much to do to go through the whole process.

you know how in 3.0 each discipline is based on a different stat?
we use that

you know how in 3.0 there are "psionic combat modes"?
we use that

you know how in 3.5 the "power points" is WAY higher
we use that.

you know augment powers, (3.5)
we use that.

that's..... basicallly it. :smallcool:

Zaq

2011-10-20, 02:03 AM

Tyndmyr

2011-10-20, 07:37 AM

Isn't there some way to double-dip casting advancement with bloodlines? I've never been really clear on how bloodlines work, but I know that they can be used to get you things way earlier than you have any right to have them.

In the long term, bloodlines generally suck, IMO.

I suppose we could always just rely on sanctum spell + another spell level booster and Extra Spell for divine, and swap some MT over to cerebremancer, provided that there's another spell level booster available in those sources...

Urpriest

2011-10-20, 08:58 AM

In the long term, bloodlines generally suck, IMO.

By general interpretation, sure. But if we're going for mondo-cheese here, we should be using the PlzBreakMyCampAn interpretation, no? Not sure if that helps, but I feel like it might.

LudiDrizzt

2011-10-20, 10:09 AM

Can I use this to ask a sub-question?

What's the easiest, least-cheesy way to do it with every book available?

Tyndmyr

2011-10-20, 10:16 AM

If gestalt is in play, it's remarkably easy.

Human Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard 2//Psion 20 is quite reasonable and effective.

LudiDrizzt

2011-10-20, 10:17 AM

If gestalt is in play, it's remarkably easy.

Human Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard 2//Psion 20 is quite reasonable and effective.

How about without gestalt?

Urpriest

2011-10-20, 10:20 AM

If gestalt is in play, it's remarkably easy.

Human Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard 2//Psion 20 is quite reasonable and effective.

If gestalt is in play and dual progression PrCs are allowed you mean. A houserule on top of a houserule is probably not what was being asked about.

Here's what I think Ludi's question boils down to: is getting into Beholder Mage without being a Beholder cheesier than getting early entry into prestige classes that require a specific level of spells? What about Phaerimm abuse? Triple nines sans gestalt will likely involve one of those three (or much cheesier tricks).

Flickerdart

2011-10-20, 10:22 AM

Can I use this to ask a sub-question?

What's the easiest, least-cheesy way to do it with every book available?
Ur-Priest for Divine, Ardent for Psionic (using ML boosters liberally), Sublime Chord or something for Arcane. Savage Bard 1/Ardent 4/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 4/Cerebremancer 5 gets you ML12 from Ardent normally, 16 with Practiced Manifester, 17 with an Orange Ioun Stone, plus level 9 Ur-Priest casting and level 10 Sublime Chord casting. Prerequisites might be a little dicey (you'd need to cheese having 3rd level arcane spells by 10th, and not sure about Ur-Priest save requirements, plus skills for Sublime Chord are tough) but it's mostly playable at every level - until 6, you're a regular Ardent, then you slack for two levels, make that gap up at 8th because of Practiced Manifester, and from then on you're awesome.

Little Brother

2011-10-20, 01:30 PM

Can I use this to ask a sub-question?

What's the easiest, least-cheesy way to do it with every book available?I don't know how this whole ardent thing works, but I know Ardent 1(Magic Mantle)/StP Disciplined(Magic) Erudite 3/Cerebromancer 7/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 3/Ur-Priest 4

The Magic Mantle makes Psychic=Magic, StP gives you spells as a discipline, Disciplined lets you take max level powers of the discipline, in this case spells, so you qualify for Cerebromancer on both sides, so you cast as a 17th level Erudite by level 11. The rest is self-explanatory.

Tyndmyr

2011-10-20, 01:31 PM

If gestalt is in play and dual progression PrCs are allowed you mean. A houserule on top of a houserule is probably not what was being asked about.

That's not a houserule. It's a variant rule. There's a notable difference.

Note also that while the variant rule reccomends against dual progression PrCs, it does not include an explicit ban of them. So, no house rules whatsoever.

faceroll

2011-10-20, 01:41 PM

I don't know how this whole ardent thing works, but I know Ardent 1(Magic Mantle)/StP Disciplined(Magic) Erudite 3/Cerebromancer 7/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 3/Ur-Priest 4

The Magic Mantle makes Psychic=Magic, StP gives you spells as a discipline, Disciplined lets you take max level powers of the discipline, in this case spells, so you qualify for Cerebromancer on both sides, so you cast as a 17th level Erudite by level 11. The rest is self-explanatory.

Got sources for Disciplined?

[edit]
Oh I see what you're saying. StP Erudite manifests spells, but he doesn't have arcane casting. Cerebremancer does nothing for you.

Little Brother

2011-10-20, 02:00 PM

Got sources for Disciplined?

[edit]
Oh I see what you're saying. StP Erudite manifests spells, but he doesn't have arcane casting. Cerebremancer does nothing for you.That's what the magic mantle is for.

faceroll

2011-10-20, 02:06 PM

That's what the magic mantle is for.

Whoa, that is a vaguely worded ability. Why bother With Ardent 1? Just go for Tap Mantle + Don Mantle.

Little Brother

2011-10-20, 02:18 PM

Whoa, that is a vaguely worded ability. Why bother With Ardent 1? Just go for Tap Mantle + Don Mantle.'Cause you need access to Mantles before you can take those feats. Erudites only have 2 bonus feats at first level, so you can't also get the mantle.

faceroll

2011-10-20, 02:21 PM

'Cause you need access to Mantles before you can take those feats. Erudites only have 2 bonus feats at first level, so you can't also get the mantle.

Ah; I missed that pre-req.

Psyren

2011-10-20, 02:44 PM

What's the source for Disciplined? (I missed that.)

faceroll

2011-10-20, 02:47 PM

Little Brother

2011-10-20, 02:58 PM

What's the source for Disciplined? (I missed that.)

I think he means discipline, as in a psionic power discipline- metacreativity and so on.

But StP doesn't actually do that; you treat learning spells as outside of your discipline.

Favored Discipline is what it's called, but I think Disciplined sounds nicer as an adjective. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)

Psyren

2011-10-20, 03:28 PM

Favored Discipline is what it's called, but I think Disciplined sounds nicer as an adjective. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)

You can't take both FD and StP, as they both give up the same thing (your first-level bonus feat.) Though I suppose you could make a case for the psicrystal being another "1st-level bonus feat" and thus trade them both in.

Little Brother

2011-10-20, 03:45 PM

You can't take both FD and StP, as they both give up the same thing (your first-level bonus feat.) Though I suppose you could make a case for the psicrystal being another "1st-level bonus feat" and thus trade them both in.Yup. In the Erudite entry it specifically states it "gains Psicrystal Affinity as a bonus feat" Emphasis mine.

It is a bonus feat. It is gained through the class at first level. Therefore, it is a class, in this case erudite, first level bonus feat.

faceroll

2011-10-20, 04:00 PM

Would magic mantle let you use metamagic feats on powers?

Psyren

2011-10-20, 04:08 PM

Yup. In the Erudite entry it specifically states it "gains Psicrystal Affinity as a bonus feat" Emphasis mine.

It is a bonus feat. It is gained through the class at first level. Therefore, it is a class, in this case erudite, first level bonus feat.

No need to convince me, I agree with you. I'm just pointing out that the intent is that both target the same bonus feat. Otherwise it would have said "you lose one of your first-level bonus feats."

But since we're already talking about using StP Erudites to begin with, I see no harm in adding a little more cheddar to their T0 salad.

Would magic mantle let you use metamagic feats on powers?

That really depends on your DM; The Magic mantle is funky like that.

Little Brother

2011-10-20, 04:51 PM

No need to convince me, I agree with you. I'm just pointing out that the intent is that both target the same bonus feat. Otherwise it would have said "you lose one of your first-level bonus feats."Oh, I see what you meant now. Sorry.

And this is Character Optimization, since when do we care about RAI for tier 1-?

But since we're already talking about using StP Erudites to begin with, I see no harm in adding a little more cheddar to their T0 salad.

Would magic mantle let you use metamagic feats on powers?

That really depends on your DM; The Magic mantle is funky like that.This. I, personally, think so. That seems to be the intent, anyways, but the Magic Mantle is so weird I don't think ANYBODY knows.

classy one

2011-10-20, 06:02 PM

Without access to, magic of Eberron, CPsi or online resources I would say this is not possible before you epic.

If they were allowed my idea would be a erudite or psionic artificer that manifests all spells as powers.

Erudite/thrallherd with psychic chiuregy, psychic reformation would be my first bet. Your thrall needs to be a psionic NPC with at least 17 levels. Your thrall takes all the XP cost.

Basically you use your thrall to hold the desired powers (or powers that once were spell). Implant them into your thrall and have him implant them in your head permenantly with psychiurgery. Use psyreform on your thrall to learn a new set of power and implant them to yourself again.

Rinse and repeat.

I think due to archavist, divine spells can be arcane as well? Need verification on this.

As psionic Artificer, you can emulate powers with a good enough UPD. You may still need an erudite though to convert spells to powers.

Urpriest

2011-10-20, 06:28 PM

That's not a houserule. It's a variant rule. There's a notable difference.

Note also that while the variant rule reccomends against dual progression PrCs, it does not include an explicit ban of them. So, no house rules whatsoever.

Merely an awkwardness of terminology. The choice whether to implement a variant rule is a houserule. Otherwise it couldn't vary from table to table, and every table would be stuck with the same variant rules in effect.

Psyren

2011-10-20, 06:53 PM

Merely an awkwardness of terminology. The choice whether to implement a variant rule is a houserule. Otherwise it couldn't vary from table to table, and every table would be stuck with the same variant rules in effect.

This logic doesn't fly. Just because something varies from table to table, doesn't make it a houserule. Not every table has Magic Item Compendium, or PHB2, or ToB/MoI, or even UA. Is it a houserule then to use these books?

The distinction is clear as day; RAW = Rules As Written. "Written" meaning "published in a first party source." Which variant rules are. Houserules are not.

I find it amusing that people never shout "houserule!" for the variants they like. The multitudes of posts that propose options like Unarmed Swordsage, Wildshape Ranger, Lion-Totem Barbarian, Abrupt Jaunt Wizards, and Dominant Ideal Ardents never mention "by the way, these are houserules."

Urpriest

2011-10-20, 07:08 PM

This logic doesn't fly. Just because something varies from table to table, doesn't make it a houserule. Not every table has Magic Item Compendium, or PHB2, or ToB/MoI, or even UA. Is it a houserule then to use these books?

The distinction is clear as day; RAW = Rules As Written. "Written" meaning "published in a first party source." Which variant rules are. Houserules are not.

I find it amusing that people never shout "houserule!" for the variants they like. The multitudes of posts that propose options like Unarmed Swordsage, Wildshape Ranger, Lion-Totem Barbarian, Abrupt Jaunt Wizards, and Dominant Ideal Ardents never mention "by the way, these are houserules."

The metaphysics are different though. Short of banning, variant classes exist at every table. Short of banning, all those books are valid at every table, whether or not anyone there owns them. By contrast, you don't need to explicitly ban gestalt characters for everyone to understand that they aren't intended to be allowed. Gestalt is something that gets explicitly decided on by a given table if it is in play.

Psyren

2011-10-20, 07:27 PM

The metaphysics are different though. Short of banning, variant classes exist at every table. Short of banning, all those books are valid at every table, whether or not anyone there owns them.

I agree that they are valid, and the reason for that ubiquity is simple; those books are official sources.

To invoke metaphysics is to ask the question "would I allow gestalt at my table or not?" which is not the same thing as asking "is gestalt an official rule or not?" (It is.)

By contrast, you don't need to explicitly ban gestalt characters for everyone to understand that they aren't intended to be allowed. Gestalt is something that gets explicitly decided on by a given table if it is in play.

Gestalt is not assumed because it alters the base rules of the game (rather than adding on to them as variant classes/ACFs do) - much in the same way that Spell Points, Recharge Magic, Complex Skill Checks and Armor Bonus alter the base rules of the game. That doesn't make it a houserule; it's right there in UA along with the other variants, pg. 72. Variant RAW is still RAW; it just happens to be optional. And there are optional rules in every sourcebook, even core.

classy one

2011-10-22, 01:47 PM

So did anyone end up "solving" this puzzle or are we debating the nature of variant and houserules instead?

I'd like to add that a psion can, in theory, research any new power and add it to his list of powers known. If the power being researched is a psionic version of an already existing spell, there is a higher chance it will be approved by the DM. Since this requires DM approval I'd doubt he'd let this work, plus it costs a bunch of XP to research powers.

Not an ideal solution but without CPsi and web enhancements this is the best I can think of.

Chronos

2011-10-22, 08:56 PM

I note that Races of Stone is on the OP's allowed list-- Are there any Killer Gnome tricks we can abuse?

And Archivists don't get arcane spells. They can get divine spells from any list, and a lot of normally-arcane spells can be found on some obscure divine list or other (especially with domains), but not all of them, and they're still divine.

Little Brother

2011-10-22, 09:29 PM

I was gonna suggest the 9th level spell fighter trick on a Psion/U-Priest/Psychic Theurge, but PGtF isn't on his list, among other things.

I don't think it can be done with that list. All the tricks I can think of require at least CPsi.

Urpriest

2011-10-22, 09:35 PM

I note that Races of Stone is on the OP's allowed list-- Are there any Killer Gnome tricks we can abuse?

Ooh hey good point. If any of those 3.0 sources gives something like Arcane Disciple, maybe we can get Shadow Miracles up? That only gives up to 8th divine though, and lower psionic.

Darthteej

2011-10-22, 10:02 PM

Playground, shame, how have we got this far in the thread without mention of

http://ll-media.essence.com/2011/06/08/herman-cane-for-president-400-400x295.jpg

The GiTP 999 plan is the NEXT STEP to reforming the Munchkin Code!

Too far into RL politics...?

Flickerdart

2011-10-22, 10:10 PM

Darthteej

2011-10-22, 10:14 PM

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Are you American?

Kaje

2011-10-22, 11:04 PM

I am, and I also have no idea what you're talking about. Is that the pizza guy?

Alleran

2011-10-22, 11:26 PM

So did anyone end up "solving" this puzzle or are we debating the nature of variant and houserules instead?
I think that if all resources are allowed, somebody mentioned the fairly easy route of being a Hatchling Phaerimm and then taking psionic and Ur-priest levels.

hex0

2011-10-23, 08:58 PM

I am, and I also have no idea what you're talking about. Is that the pizza guy?

If anyone cracks the 999 build, I demand that it be called "The Pizza Guy"

Dusk Eclipse

2011-10-23, 10:19 PM

Are you American?

Yes I am, as I live in the American continent; but I am not a citizen of the USA

:smallsigh: Sorry, I know American is usually used to refer as people citizens of the USA; but it really bothers me, as America is a continent not a single country...

Still if you could please explain the reference it would be greatly appreciated.

Darthteej

2011-10-23, 10:25 PM

Yes I am, as I live in the American continent; but I am not a citizen of the USA

Ahhh, sorry, I live in the stupid part of my country :smalltongue:

Anyway, Herman Cain is the name of "The Pizza Guy". He is very popular amoung the Republican(Right Wing) party right now because of his tax plan. It's called the 999 plan. Since I read the news alot, that was the first thing that came to mind upon seeing this thread. Sorry bout the derail.

ON TOPIC: Has rainbow servant been brought up yet? That's the classic way to hybridize without hybridizing, the problem is that it's divine spell acess is a class feature. However, it grants several domains that will advance with spellcasting class, and domains grant spells up to 9th level. So a build could look like Wizard/Rainbow Servant/Psion/Cerebemancer.

Dusk Eclipse

2011-10-23, 10:33 PM

Ahhh, sorry, I live in the stupid part of my country :smalltongue:

Anyway, Herman Cain is the name of "The Pizza Guy". He is very popular amoung the Republican(Right Wing) party right now because of his tax plan. It's called the 999 plan. Since I read the news alot, that was the first thing that came to mind upon seeing this thread. Sorry bout the derail.

ON TOPIC: Has rainbow servant been brought up yet? That's the classic way to hybridize without hybridizing, the problem is that it's divine spell acess is a class feature. However, it grants several domains that will advance with spellcasting class, and domains grant spells up to 9th level. So a build could look like Wizard/Rainbow Servant/Psion/Cerebemancer.

Don't worry it is just a pet pevee of mine.

Rainbow Servant best works with the focused casters as they know their full list of spells, the other problem is that even with the earliest entry into RS (at second level) you would at most get 10 levels of manifesting as there isn't a rapid advancement psionic Prg. class (Arcane has the Shadow Templar and Divine has both the Ur-Priest and the Apostole of Peace)

Darthteej

2011-10-23, 10:37 PM

Which is why I suggest just dipping for the domain, thereby gaining the spell on a technicality.

Dusk Eclipse

2011-10-23, 10:39 PM

True but generally this kinds of challenges imply full access to the 9th level spells, other-wise it would be too easy :smalltongue:

Flickerdart

2011-10-23, 11:13 PM

Gullintanni

2011-10-24, 09:05 AM

The issue with RS is that it takes up 10 levels of our build - meaning that, say, a Beguiler 5/Rainbow Servant 10 only has 5 levels left to get psionic nines. Even with Ardent and 5 Cerebremancer levels, you're looking at 19th level Beguiler and Cleric/~10th level Ardent. Even if you early-entry-cheese the Beguiler from level 1, that's still only 14 "levels" in Ardent.

Ardents are a bit unique though in that they can manifest any power that they have a high enough manifester level for. They aren't arbitrarily limited by their class level. An Ardent 1 could manifest level 9 powers if you trick out the manifester level enough.

Can this be abused?

Psyren

2011-10-24, 09:20 AM

Can this be abused?

It's not as powerful as it sounds, for several reasons.

1) "Jumping around" in this way guts your mid-level powers. So an Ardent can drop up to 7 ML from his build and still get 9ths just using Practiced Manifester, but he is unlikely to have many 5ths, 6ths or 7ths depending on where the levels were lost. You are essentially trading your mid-level progression to get the top-end.

2) It also guts your base PP progression. An Ardent 13 may be able to get 9ths for instance, but he has almost 200 less base PP than an Ardent 20. So while you do have 9ths, you'll run out of gas pretty fast. The more Ardent progression you lose, the exponentially worse this problem gets.

3) Frankly, psionic 9ths are worlds below magical 9ths in terms of power; a lot of psionics' truly powerful effects come from augmented lower level powers, rather than merely getting access to the top tier. (For instance, Time Stop is a 6th-level power for psions, and Energy Drain/Dominate Monster are both 4th.) This compounds the first problem because losing those mid-level powers can actually cost you big in the end-game.

Gullintanni

2011-10-24, 09:29 AM

I only have a cursory understanding of Psionics really, I just started reading about them, and so that all sounds like reasonable criticism...but as far as I'm aware the challenge is to gain triple 9ths, not full progression triple 9ths :smalltongue:

Not to mention, if you've got full progression Arcane, full progression Divine and bottom/top tier Psionics...are you gonna miss the psionic mids that badly?

Still...if the goal is to have psionic 9ths without losing power then that's all good critique with which I wholeheartedly agree.

Flickerdart

2011-10-24, 01:27 PM

Ardents are a bit unique though in that they can manifest any power that they have a high enough manifester level for. They aren't arbitrarily limited by their class level. An Ardent 1 could manifest level 9 powers if you trick out the manifester level enough.

Can this be abused?
That's what I'm referring to when saying 14 "levels". You only have nine real levels in Ardent, plus Practiced Manifester, plus an Orange Ioun Stone. There are no other easy ways of gaining constant ML boosts that immediately come to mind, but you need 3 more ML before you get 9ths.

sreservoir

2011-10-24, 02:06 PM

That's what I'm referring to when saying 14 "levels". You only have nine real levels in Ardent, plus Practiced Manifester, plus an Orange Ioun Stone. There are no other easy ways of gaining constant ML boosts that immediately come to mind, but you need 3 more ML before you get 9ths.

overchannel, then?

dextercorvia

2011-10-24, 03:11 PM

Necroticplague

2011-10-24, 05:34 PM

Psion 10 / Thrallherd 10
Your two thralls are a 17th level wizard and a 17th level cleric.

Break the action economy while you're at it :-)

Then use Fusion to get all that in one character.

sreservoir

2011-10-24, 05:49 PM

Then use Fusion to get all that in one character.

wouldn't break action economy enough!

Flickerdart

2011-10-24, 05:50 PM

Ignoring the book list -- the least cheesy (in my mind) way is:

(Talfirian) Human

SavageBard1/Ardent4/UrPriest1/PsychicTheurge4/SublimeChord1/MysticTheurge3/Cerebramancer5/PsychicTheurge+1

Feats include: Able Learner, Heighten Spell, Talfirian Song, Practiced Manifester, Iron Will (Otyugh Hole), Spell Focus Evil, and Overchannel

This casts/manifests as a 9th level Sublime Chord, 9th level Urpriest, and a 14th level Ardent (with ML up to 21)
Doesn't work - you don't have nearly enough Bardic Music to spoof 3rd level spells. You can't even use Heighten, because you only have 0th level slots.

overchannel, then?
Almost, but not quite - you can manifest at ML17, but you don't actually HAVE it, so you don't get the PP and can't learn the powers.

vampire2948

2011-10-24, 07:02 PM

The solution:

Psion 10 / Beholder Mage 1 / Cerebremancer 9.

Must be good-aligned. So natural beholders probably aren't the best for this route, unless exalted.

Learn the Sanctified spell 'Channel Greater Celestial', summon a Solar and bind it to yourself.

Bam. Channeling grants you the supernatural, spell-like abilities of the solar. Only issue is that the actual Cleric casting of the Solar isn't technically granted by this, as it doesn't say it is a (sp) or (su) ability. You do gain all it's spells as spells known...

So! The Alternative Source Spell feat of Dragon Issue #325 makes an appearance. Allowing you to prepare divine spells known in your arcane slots [At -1 Caster Level].

So - You're a beholder with 9th level arcane, divine and psionic spells - With the SLAs of a Solar which lives inside you. Extending or Persisting the Channel spell would be handy, though, as it only lasts for 10 mins/caster level.

Darthteej

2011-10-24, 08:19 PM

The problem is that you need to be good aligned to channel the Solar. Just pull off one of our other rapid advancement builds and presume it's a good aligned character.

sreservoir

2011-10-24, 08:20 PM

Almost, but not quite - you can manifest at ML17, but you don't actually HAVE it, so you don't get the PP and can't learn the powers.

ardent learning doesn't care whether you have the manifester level as long as you can manifest it. hell, even torc and earth power should work.

dextercorvia

2011-10-24, 09:52 PM

Doesn't work - you don't have nearly enough Bardic Music to spoof 3rd level spells. You can't even use Heighten, because you only have 0th level slots.

I forgot to put down Extra Music. With two flaws, I should be able to cram it in there. With an insanely high PB, you might be able to get by without Able Learner, but this requires a ridiculous amount of skills on a predominantly 2+Int chassis. Not to mention you have at least 3 stats prioritized over Int.

Flaw: Heighten Spell
Flaw: Talfirian Spell
Human: Able Learner
1: Spell Focus: Evil
3: Practiced Manifester
OH: Iron Will
6: Extra Music

Alleran

2011-10-24, 10:03 PM

The problem is that you need to be good aligned to channel the Solar. Just pull off one of our other rapid advancement builds and presume it's a good aligned character.
If you've polymorphed yourself into a beholder while being a good-aligned Psion character, then it should be fine. I think. You're wearing the shape of the beholder, after all, not a beholder yourself (though it isn't as if the RAW cares for purposes of getting into Beholder Mage). Alternately, using the Savage Species Wish transformation ritual to become the beholder (instead of polymorph) is another option.