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Yorae
2011-10-19, 01:50 PM
Reading over this power, it seemed a bit strange...


Energy Push
Psychokinesis
Level: Psion/Wilder 2
Display: Auditory and visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level)
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 3

Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You project a solid blast of energy of the chosen type at a target, dealing it 2d6 points of damage. In addition, if a subject of up to one size category larger than you fails a Strength check (DC equal to the save DC of this power), the driving force of the energy blast pushes it back 5 feet plus another 5 feet for every 5 points of damage it takes. If a wall or other solid object prevents the subject from being pushed back, the subject instead slams into the object and takes an extra 2d6 points of damage from the impact (no save). The movement caused by energy push does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Cold: A blast of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die (damage from impact remains at 2d6 points). The saving throw to reduce damage from a cold push is a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save.

Electricity: Manifesting a blast of this energy type provides a +2 bonus to the save DC and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance.

Fire: A blast of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die (damage from impact remains at 2d6 points).

Sonic: A blast of this energy type deals –1 point of damage per die (damage from impact remains at 2d6 points) and ignores an object’s hardness.

This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest.

Augment: For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d6) and its save DC increases by 1. The damage increase applies to both the initial blast and any damage from impact with an object.



And...


SRD:Ray
Ray (Su or Sp)Edit

This form of special attack works like a ranged attack. Hitting with a ray attack requires a successful ranged touch attack roll, ignoring armor, natural armor, and shield and using the creature’s ranged attack bonus. Ray attacks have no range increment. A ray’s attack roll never takes a range penalty. The creature’s descriptive text specifies the maximum range, effects, and any applicable saving throw. Rays never allow a Reflex saving throw, but if a character’s Dexterity bonus to AC is high, it might be hard to hit her with the ray in the first place.

The power description also never mentions needing to make an attack roll, whereas other ray spells seem to always mention this explicitly:



SRD:Scorching Ray
...
Effect: Ray
...
Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage.


SRD:Ray of Enfeeblement
...
Effect: Ray
...
You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target.
(Same wording used for Ray of Exhaustion)

SRD:Ray of Frost
...
Effect: Ray
...
You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target.
(Same wording used for Polar Ray)

Was this ever errata'd to be "Target: One Creature" or something?

Starbuck_II
2011-10-19, 02:06 PM
Hmm, technically, it isn't a ray as there is no attack roll.
But it says Ray. I think it is Ray for Split Ray mechanics (such as Psionic split ray metapsionic), but not a ray for whether there should be a saving throw.

I've never noticed that.

Keld Denar
2011-10-19, 02:26 PM
Hmmm, it wasn't even reprinted in Complete Psionic (like Energy Stun was). Thats wierd. I'd say that then it is not a Ray, and that the Target line is an error and should be ignored.

Psyren
2011-10-19, 02:29 PM
Hilariously, I think DSP missed this too, because it's printed the same way in Psionics Unleashed.

It's either not supposed to be a ray or not supposed to have a reflex save; I can't see how it could be both, as you say. Given that being a ray would internally unbalance it (the cold ray would have a save while the other elements would not) I'm inclined to think that it should be changed to be a targeted spell along the lines of magic missile or energy missile.

Cicciograna
2011-10-19, 02:33 PM
I don't know where the OP quoted the text of this power from, but the errata'd version available here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyPush.htm) lists its effect as Ray, as it should be. No trace of references to any roll to hit, though.
For what concerns the ST, it's only to avoid the secondary effect, not the ray altogether. My interpretation of the second quote made by OP is that "rays never allow a Reflex ST to nullify their effects, eg. to dodge them".

Yora
2011-10-19, 02:39 PM
That still doesn't make any sense.

Even with that errats, I am also of the oppinion that the spell is not a ray at all.

Yorae
2011-10-19, 02:45 PM
I don't know where the OP quoted the text of this power from, but the errata'd version available here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyPush.htm) lists its effect as Ray, as it should be. No trace of references to any roll to hit, though.
For what concerns the ST, it's only to avoid the secondary effect, not the ray altogether. My interpretation of the second quote made by OP is that "rays never allow a Reflex ST to nullify their effects, eg. to dodge them".

You are right - the source I quoted was incorrect - I can see it listed as "Effect: Ray" in the XPH as well. I'll edit. Still seems like it shouldn't be a ray, though. It doesn't look like a duck or quack like a duck.

Do you guys think it should require a ranged attack roll? The reflex half must be correct, since the rest of the text references it.
That doesn't really make sense, imo. If you hit with a ranged attack, you struck the target with it - they can't dodge it, they've already been hit with it. That would also make it potentially four rolls to resolve the spell - attack roll, spell penetration, reflex save, strength check.

Cicciograna
2011-10-19, 03:01 PM
That still doesn't make any sense.

Even with that errats, I am also of the oppinion that the spell is not a ray at all.

You're right, it does not make any sense. And BTW, regading my interpretation of rays and Reflex ST I was wrong, at least in this case, since it would seem that the Reflex ST halves the damage.

My interpretation would be this.

Manifester uses (unaugmented) power, rolls to hit and succeeds.
Target suffers 2d6 of damage, and has to make a ST.
The following scenarios ensue, depending of the energy type of the ray:

Cold: the target suffers an additional 2 damage and has to roll a Fort save to halve instead of Ref;
Electricity: the target must save at DC+2; ST is on Reflex;
Fire: the target suffers additional 2 damage; ST is on Reflex;
Sonic: damage dealt is reduced by 2; ST is on Reflex, and if the target was an object its hardness is ignored.

Independently from the damage type, target is pushed back by 5 feet, plus 5 feet for every 5 points of damage. If she hits a solid object she suffers an additional 2d6 (no save), unaltered by the energy type.

This way it could make sense, apart from the fact that rays shouldn't allow Ref STs.

Yora
2011-10-19, 03:01 PM
Touch attack for damage and a Reflex save against being pushed would make sense.

But then it says that cold energy makes the save a Fortitude save against damage, so this is ruled out.
Again, it could quite likely be, that this is just copy and paste without thinking, but there is no explicit mention of this possible solution as one would expect to see in such a case.

faceroll
2011-10-19, 03:02 PM
Well, specific trumps general, so it could definitely be a ray with a reflex save attached. However, its target is a ray, in the power table description, which means it only targets rays. I guess it'd have been a good power for Steve Irwin to have known (too soon?).

But then in the actual text, it mentions targeting a creature without an attack roll, which leads me to believe you just shoot stuff, and they get a save to halve damage.

tl;dr
Ignore Target:Ray line.

Flickerdart
2011-10-19, 03:04 PM
Stygian Ray (CPsi) also offers a Reflex save, IIRC.

Yorae
2011-10-19, 03:10 PM
Stygian Ray (CPsi) also offers a Reflex save, IIRC.

Just looked it up -- its Save:None and explicitly mentions a ranged touch attack.

Psyren
2011-10-19, 03:21 PM
It may have silly wording but the power still functions. By RAW, it's a "ray" that you don't aim/roll to hit with. Even though it lacks a target line, the text still lets you target it.

"You project a solid blast of energy of the chosen type at a target, dealing it 2d6 points of damage."

So I'm with faceroll - just ignore the "ray" line, or take it as a fluff description of what the power looks like when fired.

Yorae
2011-10-19, 03:25 PM
It may have silly wording but the power still functions. By RAW, it's a "ray" that you don't aim/roll to hit with. Even though it lacks a target line, the text still lets you target it.

"You project a solid blast of energy of the chosen type at a target, dealing it 2d6 points of damage."

So I'm with faceroll - just ignore the "ray" line, or take it as a fluff description of what the power looks like when fired.

Makes the most sense, I suppose. Thanks.