Wand Fighting

[Little Brother]

Assuming no MagicMart, little downtime, and no crafting tricks, is it feasible to do something like this at low levels? Is is sustainable? Is there any way to avoid burning charges? The only way I know is unfettered Heroism, but that's a 5th level bard spell. I'm talking about doing it by level 4 or so.

Also, newb question: Can you sneak attack with a wand/spell?

Thanks.

[Kol Korran]

not quite sure what you mean by "wand fighting". like two casters with scorching rays wands shooting at each other?

there are "economic" wands called Eternal wands, that can hold up to a 3rdlevel spell, and cast it twice a day. that might be a cheap solution on the long run (described in Eberron Campaign setting, perhaps even the magic item compendium... not sure)

as to the sneak attack question- as far as i know, you can sneak attack with anything that makes an attack roll (like crits) so scorching rays, shocking grasp, orb spells and disintegrate you can sneak attack with. magic missile, fireball and glitterdust- no.

but the more rules-savvy might know better.

[MesiDoomstalker]

not quite sure what you mean by "wand fighting". like two casters with scorching rays wands shooting at each other?

there are "economic" wands called Eternal wands, that can hold up to a 3rdlevel spell, and cast it twice a day. that might be a cheap solution on the long run (described in Eberron Campaign setting, perhaps even the magic item compendium... not sure)

as to the sneak attack question- as far as i know, you can sneak attack with anything that makes an attack roll (like crits) so scorching rays, shocking grasp, orb spells and disintegrate you can sneak attack with. magic missile, fireball and glitterdust- no.

but the more rules-savvy might know better.

You are correct about SA. Anything with an attack roll can deliver SA as long as the other conditions are met. Something of note, the SA does the same kind of damage as the spell delivering it except things that deal Ability Damage or deal out Negative levels. Those spells deliver Negative Energy-typed SA. Otherwise, it be incredibly broken.

"Yes, my Unseen Seer build can deal 1d4+6d6 Negative Levels with a 4th level spell, what of it? Just wait till I start adding Metamagics.

[Little Brother]

not quite sure what you mean by "wand fighting". like two casters with scorching rays wands shooting at each other?Wand fighting as in fighting with wands as your weapon of choice.


there are "economic" wands called Eternal wands, that can hold up to a 3rdlevel spell, and cast it twice a day. that might be a cheap solution on the long run (described in Eberron Campaign setting, perhaps even the magic item compendium... not sure)But they are expensive, and two shots a day isn't very effective.


as to the sneak attack question- as far as i know, you can sneak attack with anything that makes an attack roll (like crits) so scorching rays, shocking grasp, orb spells and disintegrate you can sneak attack with. magic missile, fireball and glitterdust- no.Oh, okay. Thanks.

[Keld Denar]

Well, actually, there are 2 conditions. A spell has to have an attack roll (as specified above), and also has to deal damage (or inflict negative levels). You can SA with Scorching Ray, but you can't SA with Ray of Enfeeblement or Ray of Exhaustion.

About the most economic wand I've ever seen is one of PHBII's Seeking Ray. Seeking Ray does 4d6 electrical damage (for a CL3 spell) just like Scorching Ray, but electricity is often time less resisted than fire, AND Seeking Ray sets up a relationship between you and the target that allow rays shot from you at the target within the next 3 rounds (at CL3) to have a +4 to hit. Get a cheap Metamagic Wand Grip of Split Ray for 8d6 damage per charge 3/day.

If you REALLY want to get efficient with wandage, take the feat Residual Magic, and make sure you know the spell you have in your wand. Now hard cast the spell (make sure its one that scales well, like Scorching Ray), and on your next turn use the wand. Residual Magic will make wand match your CL and save DC that round. On the next round, recast the spell, and then reuse the wand. Keep alternating until your target is dead, or you run out of charges/spells. Gets you more dice from your wanded spell. Combine with a Metamagic Wand Grip of your choice effect for extra oomph.

[Anderlith]

It's pretty easy. Poke them in the eye. You don't even use a charge!

(Serious face:smallannoyed:)Your best bet is to go with a handful of eternal wands from Eberron/MIC.

[Keld Denar]

A game has to go on for a LONG time to get value out of an eternal wand. They cost slightly more than a regular wand IIRC, and can only be used 2/day. Thats not even 2/every day, thats 2/combat day. If your campaign stretches years, and yet you only have like, a dozen days where your party is involved in combat, you've used the equivalent of 24 charges, which is only half the wand. Thats not even counting the times when you'll need the wand more than twice a day. I suppose you could keep like, 20 eternal wands on a bandoleer and just change them out, but the initial investment cost will be dramatic.

Eternal Wands are a cool concept, but when you look at the economics, most games don't last that long unless its something you can really use in downtime, like an Eternal Wand of Improvisation you use every day to boost your crafting skill to earn money during downtime.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Yeah, one of the better "wand fighting" options I could think of would be a rogue with a magic user dip. IF 3.5, cloistered cleric, if Pathfinder (my preference) just wizard. you can always UMD the other side of the arcane/divine divide.

don't forget wand bracers (dungeonscape). it allows you to access up to 5 wands with a swift action to draw the one of your choice.

Wand chambers from the same book allows a wand to be stored in a weapon or shield, and counts it as readied for use. So, if you use a buckler, some other weapon, and a wand bracer, you can "wield" 3 wands at once.

Pretty sexy rogue, no?:smallwink:

[Curious]

The best 'wand fight' I can think of would be a Magus with that Magus Arcana that lets you wield a wand in your other hand rather than a spell.

[Little Brother]

Yeah, those are all good ideas. The big question is how do I make it sustainable? At low level, each wand is a big chunk of your WBL, so is there a way to get free uses, beyond the Wand Surge/Unfettered Heroism trick?

[Keld Denar]

Other than being an Artificer and crafting them out of your craft reserve and using the Artisan feats that cut the cost by X%, not really free, but cheaper.

Be a 'forged. Craft while your allies sleep.

Build a homonculus, have it craft while YOU sleep.

Barring that, be a Wizard1, cast Disguise Self, Mount, and Magic Aura (on the Mount spell). Sell the Mount, leave, and dismiss the Disguise. You now have ~50g. Repeat a few times for disposable income, and craft with that.

Alternatively, get a benefactor. Find a rich dude to buy you a couple of starter wands in return for doing some service for him and/or repayment of the debt.

Alternatively, see if you can craft partially charged wands. Say you are buying an exhausted wand (should be cheap), and recharging it. Granted, you can't take Craft Wand till 5th level anyway, so you might have trouble making your concept work from level 1 up.

Other than the Unfettered Heroism + Wand Surge combo you mentioned above, there aren't really any other ways to get around paying costs. There just aren't.

[Addi]

I suggest th "moonblade" spell from FRCS in a wand for some lightsaber action (wand fighting).
Your alternative to this are flameblade and flamedagger. But they are not as awesome as Moonblade. All three need touch attacks and are pretty useful in the hands of a sneak-attacking character.

[Zeta Kai]

Yeah, wands are cheap. I recommend playing a Monk, pumping your UMD, & buying up a bunch of partially-charged wands (they're even cheaper). Then you can take on a wizard! :smallwink:
For those of you who don't get the joke, I'm being facetious & referring to an epic flamewar about the monk & their supposed anti-wizard combat abilities. Long story, look it up.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I am a big fan of the wand feat that lets you pop charges for damage.
Going at least warlock 4 then rogue or spell thief.

Now I believe hideous blow works with it so you can use the wand attack (as you can only make 1 attack with it) then add hideous blow damge and sneak attack it is pritty decent.

[Lateral]

Yeah, wands are cheap. I recommend playing a Monk, pumping your UMD, & buying up a bunch of partially-charged wands (they're even cheaper). Then you can take on a wizard! :smallwink:
For those of you who don't get the joke, I'm being facetious & referring to an epic flamewar about the monk & their supposed anti-wizard combat abilities. Long story, look it up.

We do not talk about this. We do not speak His name. Seriously. Saying "Giacomo" summons the mods. (We're talking about him, right?) They will totally get all Candle Jack on yo

[Flickerdart]

Downtime isn't an issue - a Dedicated Wright costs a pittance to create, and after an hour of instructing it, you can put it in a bag of holding and let it craft away while you blow dudes up with things. At 9th level, take the feat Residual Magic to save on wands even more: if you alternate between wand and your own slots, your wand CLs and DCs are boosted to match your usual ones, meaning you can craft minimum CL wands.

[Curious]

We do not talk about this. We do not speak His name. Seriously. Saying "Giacomo" summons the mods. (We're talking about him, right?) They will totally get all Candle Jack on yo

I googled his name, and after I realized the first four posters had all been banned, I began to understand just how terrible it must have been. :smalleek:

[Lateral]

I googled his name, and after I realized the first four posters had all been banned, I began to understand just how terrible it must have been. :smalleek:

It was hell. (I'm glad I wasn't involved; the most I ever did was accidentally start a Monk thread back when I was learning D&D from the SRD.)

[Zaq]

It's also one of the funniest goddamn threads I've ever seen on this site. It had me in stitches.

Anyway, the only time I really like Eternal Wands instead of normal wands is when I'm making a new character who has been regularly using this wand for his or her entire life (or at least for a long indeterminate period of time prior to starting the game). If my character makes a habit of casting Undetectable Alignment every single day, or refuses to sleep without popping his typical Alarm spell, or whatever, it's more believable to me that the character would have an Eternal Wand than that they would have a nice fresh 50-charge wand. That said, that's pure thematics, and you're still probably better off with a normal wand.

And yeah, unless you're burning multiple charges at once (say, with Artificer shenanigans perfectly normal out-of-the-box class features), wands are effectively infinite for most campaigns. If you genuinely run out of charges, well, you got your money's worth, and you can probably get a second wand from the same source as the first one. (Exceptions exist, but I'd find them unusual.) That doesn't help much when you're level 3, but honestly, have you gone through 50 combat rounds in this campaign? Did you do the same thing in every single one of them? Do you want to? You'll be fine.

[GoatBoy]

Complete Arcane has detailed rules for sneak attacking with spells. I was ready to start drooling for the spells like ice darts (Frostburn) or stars of Avandar (BoED) which feature multiple attack rolls, but the rules specify that even if the spell provides multiple attacks, you can only gain sneak attack once per spell. Though, you could combine one with a quickened ray of frost (swift action) and a shot from cloud of knives (free action).

When you said "wand fighting" I pictured someone actually fighting... with a wand, as their weapon. In which case, you'd go with the Wandstrike feat, from Complete Arcane. Unfortunately, it's a touch attack, so no bonus from strength. Too bad... a wand increased in size twice would be two-handed, PLUS whatever you get from the spell...

I think there might be a build here.

[Gotterdammerung]

Monte Cook's Book

"The Complete Book of Eldritch Might"
from Malhavoc Press

is a D20 system book compatible with 3.5 core.


Find a copy of it. Turn to the spells page. Look for

Extend Charge and Coax Forth Power


Extend Charge
transmutation
Sor/wiz 3
V,S,M
Standard
Touch
Target:1 magic item
Duration: 1round/2lvls (d)
Save:no
SR:no

When cast on a wand, this spell lets the item be used throughout the duration without expending charges (no more than once per round).

Material component: liquid mixture of water and silver worth 50 GP




Coax Forth Power
Transmutation
sor/wiz 4
V
Standard
touch
target:1 magic item
duration: 10 min/lvl
save:no
SR:no

This spell allows you to enhance the amount of damage a spell-completion or command-word magic item inflicts. For the duration, the item inflicts 50% more damage than normal with each use.


As an artificer
Make an eternal wand of extend charge
use it to cast extend charge onto a wand of extend charge
use that wand to cast a persistant extend charge on all your wands without using any charges.
Use all your wands for the day without expending any charges. (1 use per round/per wand)

Next you cry because your GM won't ever let you use any extra source material ever again no matter who wrote it or how balanced it was originally.

[Thurbane]

I might be mis-remembering, but isn't there a feat or spell somewhere that lets you burn up your own spell slots to activate a wand without using up charges?

[Seharvepernfan]

Honestly, if you have access to NPCs in the world you are playing in who craft items that you want and sell them to you, I don't see any reason why a spellcaster can't make brand new wands with less than 50 charges if you both agree to how many charges and how much it will cost you.

As a DM, I allow this, as well as magic ammunition in bundles of less than 50.

[Tyndmyr]

not quite sure what you mean by "wand fighting". like two casters with scorching rays wands shooting at each other?

there are "economic" wands called Eternal wands, that can hold up to a 3rdlevel spell, and cast it twice a day. that might be a cheap solution on the long run (described in Eberron Campaign setting, perhaps even the magic item compendium... not sure)

as to the sneak attack question- as far as i know, you can sneak attack with anything that makes an attack roll (like crits) so scorching rays, shocking grasp, orb spells and disintegrate you can sneak attack with. magic missile, fireball and glitterdust- no.

but the more rules-savvy might know better.

They are in MiC, yes. Note that they are best for spells you use literally every day. Greater Mage Armor? Fantastic. Stuff it in an eternal wand, cast it twice per day on you and your bud. High five each other. CLW? Hell yes.

Undead killing spell? Hell no. You're gonna use that rarely, and when you get a chance to use it, you'll want to dump charges like candy. Use a normal wand.

[clevername_no]

This sounds cool

[Zeta Kai]

I googled his name, and after I realized the first four posters had all been banned, I began to understand just how terrible it must have been. :smalleek:

This forum is well-defended against flame wars, but they are not impossible, even here. That one was epic, to be sure. It makes for an entertaining read, as well as educational one for anyone who wants to understand the limitations of the monk class, the D20 combat system, & the tolerance of forum moderation.

For the record, the first FIVE posters were banned. Here's a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704) for the curious (beware). I'll stop derailing this thread now. :smallredface:

[Tyndmyr]

Ah. I think my response to Gio was pointing out that my Wizard's invariably take Heart of Air. So, from level 5 onward, my response is to leave the grapple as a free action, roll away as a move action, and rape the monk as a standard.

This is assuming that the monk somehow DID surprise me and grappled me, a situation which bears little resemblance to a fair fight.

Definitely avoid any thread involving the Giomonk. It is generally a troll.

[kjones]

This forum is well-defended against flame wars, but they are not impossible, even here. That one was epic, to be sure. It makes for an entertaining read, as well as educational one for anyone who wants to understand the limitations of the monk class, the D20 combat system, & the tolerance of forum moderation.

For the record, the first FIVE posters were banned. Here's a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704) for the curious (beware). I'll stop derailing this thread now. :smallredface:

Ah, for the good old days... The Great Giamonk Flamewar of '08 rivaled even some of the fighter threads from back in the day. We were younger then, more innocent... :smalltongue:

[Stegyre]

For the record, the first FIVE posters were banned. Here's a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704) for the curious (beware). I'll stop derailing this thread now. :smallredface:
Posters were banned, but it's not clear that the banning had anything to do with the thread.

And I went to the end of the thread (I did not read it, although I enjoyed some skimming) and noted that it was locked merely due to length, with the comment that the OP was free to open up a new thread.

From all appearances, management was fine with the discussion. :smallconfused: