Monks and They Deal: a Discourse on the Monk and its Fluff

[KnejaTurch]

Hello playgrounders!
Monks. I've always thought of monks as being oddly specific, much like the Paladin and the Druid, however one of my players loves playing the monk, with all his cool monk-ish abilities. My question is this:

How could I re-fluff the monk from a kind of eastern kung-fu flavor to have a more involved role in my a high-magic magocratic society?

The way i see it, the monk is great if all you plan on doing is punching some dudes (And becoming immune to diseases for no discernable reason), but i was thinking they could be given an active role in society.

I'm open to all kinds of ideas, alternate class features, alternate rules, wonky rules, anything.

All Replies appreciated!

[Flickerdart]

Monks make excellent corpses, which any necromancer needs in great quantities.

[Lateral]

Monks make excellent corpses, which any necromancer needs in great quantities.

This.

Although, if you have your average "monk" actually be Sacred Fists, they'd make pretty good Middle Ages-style Christian monks. The kind that are all enlightened. Also, they could be an insular order who dress in brown robes with concealing hoods and have an overarching plan for the world and work behind the scenes, manipulating to get it done. Like the Illuminati.

[gkathellar]

Wizards have implemented carefully designed labyrinths designed to slowly raise orphans into level 17 monks via a mix of incentive-based conditioning, hallucinogens and horrible torture. Once this training program is complete, the new monks are made aware of their situation, and informed that they will from then on use their Tongue of the Sun and Moon ability to become the finest minimum wage civic gardeners in the universe.

Those that refuse are killed immediately, liquefied, and used to feed the next batch.

[Keld Denar]

Also, they should brew beer.

[Saint GoH]

Inherent flaws in Monks aside, it would seem that in a high-magic magocracy monks would lean more towards the aesthetic value of the world. As in, where wizards draw on Arcane power for their spells, and Clerics rule the religious aspect, Monks would be a considerably smaller order of individuals who pride themselves not on an otherworldly power but the perfection of themselves.

The train their minds and bodies to become resistant to these otherworldly powers (their SR they eventually get) as well as a depth of fortitude rarely achieved by others (yay disease free!). They learn the pressure points of humanoids and can incapacitate them easily, but they tend to avoid magical enhancement (perhaps every single one getting a Vow of Poverty?). All in all, monks are those who have forsaken magic and try to perfect their souls.

Of course, the blatant downside to this is the while this fluff seems to work out okay, its fairly obvious monks don't do this stuff as well as... well... pretty much anyone else.

[T.G. Oskar]

Oriental Adventures gives a good fluff for the monk, which seems oddly fitting. Being ascetic individuals, they are the way to go when one wishes to abandon the world instead of engaging in it. This relates in a way with how Buddhism is practiced; you can be a devout Buddhist, but becoming an actual monk and taking the vows implies leaving everything behind. If someone isn't trained to become a mage from a small age or engage in another role (mage guard, merchant, etc.), the only two ways to survive is to become a mere peasant or reach a monastery and become a monk.

From there, you can use all other Monk deviations. Most NPCs might use the Monk class from the PHB as an NPC class, and you might allow some PCs to enter earlier levels to access other PrCs and whatnot. Your "warrior monks" could be either one of the many homebrewed Monks or the unarmed Swordsage (as much as I loathe the idea, it IS a valid one nonetheless). Those who practice the psionic arts awaken their talent and become either Ardents or Psions, both engaging in Tashalatora (which may be refluffed to be a martial arts style that combines martial training with ki, which can be refluffed into psionics). Former mages that practice the martial arts could become Enlightened Fists, while the traditional western Monk could be achieved with Cloistered Cleric, Monk and Sacred Fist.

In the magocracy system, monks are not treated as a challenge nor treated as a slave, since they will usually accept death serenely (knowing they might not vanquish the arcane arts) or become a massive headache (such as by optimizing the builds) so as to leave them alone. Thus, they become the role to follow when you wish to "cheat" the system.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Buy ToB, use Unarmed Swordsage, ignore Sublime Way fluff.

[Basket Burner]

Mages need experience points for crafting and research purposes. If you know a better way of getting them, I'm listening.

Edit: When you're done, you have some solid material for the necromancers. Waste not, want not.

[KnejaTurch]

Mages need experience points for crafting and research purposes. If you know a better way of getting them, I'm listening.

Wait, what?

[Psyren]

Wait, what?

He means using the monks as a resource. Whether this refers to the straightforward method of slaughtering them for crafting XP, or more nuanced approaches like torture, soul binding, or even joy extraction I think you would have to ask him.

Anyway, seconding Unarmed Swordsage as WotC's "no really, we replaced monk because it's unsalvageable" move.

[Diefje]

Why would there NOT be some obscure monastery in some remote area training monks in their traditional fighting style? Unless you specifically take them out, I see no reason for them not to be in the game. The monks training is pretty similar to the wizards (and cleric). It takes full dedication and years of long study and practise, but their study subject is their body rather than arcane magic (or divine).If any base class was gonna get the boot in the setting you're describing, it would be the barbarian for being the "no study whatsoever" class.

[Lateral]

Wait, what?

He means they're good for being slaughtered like cattle, only for XP instead of meat.

Monks aren't very good. [/understatement]

Although, if you go with an Illuminati-type monk order, the Invisible Fist ACF from Exemplars of Evil fits mechanically and thematically.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Why would there NOT be some obscure monastery in some remote area training monks in their traditional fighting style? Unless you specifically take them out, I see no reason for them not to be in the game. The monks training is pretty similar to the wizards (and cleric). It takes full dedication and years of long study and practise, but their study subject is their body rather than arcane magic (or divine).If any base class was gonna get the boot in the setting you're describing, it would be the barbarian for being the "no study whatsoever" class.

The place where people go so they can beat the feared housecats!

Sadly, they suck past level 4, so at that point they just hunt goblins in level 1 adventures.

[KnejaTurch]

Monks aren't very good. [/understatement]



Obviously I'm missing something. Could someone explain to me why monks arent very good?

[Basket Burner]

Wait, what?

What part of that were you confused by?

Edit: Wizarded.

[The Glyphstone]

Hooboy.


It might be quicker for you to do a Search of the 3.5 subforum for every thread with "Monk" in its title. Look for the ones that have been locked (most of them), and you'll see the rather vehement...debates...on this topic.

[Curious]

Obviously I'm missing something. Could someone explain to me why monks arent very good?

Hoo boy.

Class features do not synergize (speed bonuses vs flurry).
Class features are horrible (slow fall isn't even as good as a first level spell, Tongue of the Sun and Moon is just Tongues, etc.).
Some class features actually harm you (SR).
No real combat power or utility.

EDIT: Ninja'd down to the starting words!

[Lateral]

Obviously I'm missing something. Could someone explain to me why monks arent very good?

We are NOT turning this into the weekly Monk thread. There are hundreds of threads about it; Google is your friend.

[Basket Burner]

He means they're good for being slaughtered like cattle, only for XP instead of meat.

Yes. Their role is akin to that of a renewable resource.

[kardar233]

While they seem to have a lot of abilities, all of them are either extremely niche or easily replaced by a spell or two. Their only other contribution is hitting things, which due to 3/4 BAB, the penalty on Flurry attacks, the inability to make Flurries and charge, the difficulty in getting your fists enchanted, and the lack of self-buffing and self-sufficiency doesn't work well. I might have missed a few reasons, but that's the gish of it.


~EDIT~ Whoa. Never has being Unarmed Swordsage'd been so appropriate.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Obviously I'm missing something. Could someone explain to me why monks arent very good?

Here come the debates.

Monks are bad because the fluff lies and you can't judge a book by its cover.

1. Fluff for their AC bonus says they're incredibly hard to hit, but crunch says "you gain a bonus to AC that's less than the BAB of a commoner of your level, plus your wisdom modifier which is going to be low after investing points in str, dex, and con".

2. Synergy. They get Fast Movement and Flurry of Blows, but they cant use both.

3. Their unarmed damage looks high, but the static bonuses a fighter's greatsword gets from the extra 1/2 to strength score, Power Attack, and magic makes it only average. And "average" isn't good when you're paying x2 (x3 if you don't have MIC) for magic item bonuses and have 3/4 BAB.

[gkathellar]

Why would there NOT be some obscure monastery in some remote area training monks in their traditional fighting style? Unless you specifically take them out, I see no reason for them not to be in the game. The monks training is pretty similar to the wizards (and cleric). It takes full dedication and years of long study and practise, but their study subject is their body rather than arcane magic (or divine).If any base class was gonna get the boot in the setting you're describing, it would be the barbarian for being the "no study whatsoever" class.

Because they're the dull rock to a wizard's howitzer?

OP, as others have mentioned and explained, monks suck, but this doesn't really clarify how much monks suck. A monk is tangentially better than an Aristocrat, and can be beaten by a reasonably optimized Expert.

That said, there are like seven dozen excellent monk fixes on the Homebrew Forum, so all joking aside their incredible sucktitude should not necessarily discourage you.

You can really take two approaches to monks in any setting: either they're martial artists, or actual monks who happen to do martial arts. The former approach just indicates deeply physical people who are students of their own bodies in the same way wizards are students of reality's fundamental shape. The second approach is a more Buddhist/Taoist one, and typically implies that their physical studies are a means to an end, an aid to their understanding of reality's fundamental shape.

In either case, there is a focus on physicality and the mysteries hidden behind it which could make them a weird and generally disliked sect in a magocratic setting.

[Steward]

Wizards have implemented carefully designed labyrinths designed to slowly raise orphans into level 17 monks via a mix of incentive-based conditioning, hallucinogens and horrible torture. Once this training program is complete, the new monks are made aware of their situation, and informed that they will from then on use their Tongue of the Sun and Moon ability to become the finest minimum wage civic gardeners in the universe.

Those that refuse are killed immediately, liquefied, and used to feed the next batch.

Would that really be necessary? Tongue of the Sun and Moon is barely better than a 3rd level Wizard spell + one that Druids get at level 1? Just get a Wands of 'Speak with Animals' and '...Plants' and be done with it.

[NNescio]

Would that really be necessary? Tongue of the Sun and Moon is barely better than a 3rd level Wizard spell + one that Druids get at level 1? Just get a Wands of 'Speak with Animals' and '...Plants' and be done with it.

Maybe it's a jelly garden?

[gkathellar]

Would that really be necessary? Tongue of the Sun and Moon is barely better than a 3rd level Wizard spell + one that Druids get at level 1? Just get a Wands of 'Speak with Animals' and '...Plants' and be done with it.

It's not necessary, and frankly it's incredibly wasteful, but so are underwater restaurants, and shooting your ashes up into space, and cutting down the oldest trees in the world in one by one to use for your fireplace despite having a perfectly functional internal heating system, and caviar.

This is a question of pride, and principles, and hilarious excess.

I mean, what's the point of running a magocracy if you don't get to basically act like Willy Wonka all the time?

[Quietus]

High-magic society? Well. I'd imagine that you'd end up with a world so utterly infused with magic that almost everyone would WANT to be magical. Cantrips wouldn't be hugely uncommon among the peasants. And magic.. well, magic does some wonky things.

You see, some people are born with magic in their blood. Some are born capable of performing feats of logic and twisting magic to their will with their brains. And then you have those whose very bodies are infused with magic. These last are the Monks. They learn to be faster, more resilient against diseases, and in the right situations, to defy gravity as they fall. None of their tricks are quite as strong as what you'd expect from a Wizard, because for the most part they can't access the Real Magic (enlightened fists and the like notwithstanding), but they perform feats that most would find to be impossible.

That's the good sell. The other side of this is that Monks are your world's version of Rock Lee - they can't do magic at all, so they learn how to punch things a lot. And when they fight a real wizard, they lose.

[Provengreil]

Hoo boy.

Class features do not synergize (speed bonuses vs flurry).
Class features are horrible (slow fall isn't even as good as a first level spell, Tongue of the Sun and Moon is just Tongues, etc.).
Some class features actually harm you (SR).
No real combat power or utility.

EDIT: Ninja'd down to the starting words!

wait, I know monks are bad and the capstone just makes you more vulnerable to certain spells and so on, but how can Spell Resistance be harmful? I would think it would, at worst, do nothing, and maybe even stop a few spells.

[Curious]

wait, I know monks are bad and the capstone just makes you more vulnerable to certain spells and so on, but how can Spell Resistance be harmful? I would think it would, at worst, do nothing, and maybe even stop a few spells.

Because it applies to friendly spells as well.

[Yuki Akuma]

Because it applies to friendly spells as well. And you can't lower it.

...Yes you can. You can take a standard action to lower your SR.

See? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance)

[Curious]

...Yes you can. You can take a standard action to lower your SR.

Oop, sorry, you're right. Still bad though, as wasting a standard action in combat is quite terrible (and not possible if you are unconscious, which is when you'll really need it most).

[Yuki Akuma]

There are plenty of friendly spells that don't allow spell resistance, and plenty of buffs that last long enough for you to get your buff on before any enemies are close enough for your standard action to be worth anything.

And by the time you have any SR at all, you move further in a move action than most people do on a double move, so you're not losing any ground either.

Not that Monk SR is good, or anything. But still.

[Randomguy]

To point out something that's just fluff and not game mechanics: A monastary would actually be a good place to improve mental discipline, and a quiet place to study magic, away from all the explosions of a mage academy. It would also be worth a visit for people who want to increase their ranks in Knowledge (religion).

Although the monk concept is great, it really needs a fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122).

With the fix, monks can be much more useful to mages as protectors and sneaks, since they tend to be better company than your typical big dumb fighter (to a caster, anyways.) and more trustworthy than the average rogue. They're also better at taking out enemy casters, when the need arises. (All good saves, evasion, better spell resistance, sense the void makes invisibility weaker if you take the ACF, and other goodies.)

Also, tongue of the sun and the moon is not just Tongues. It's also speak with animals. (And speak with plants, depending on how your DM interprets "living creatures.")

[ericgrau]

Obviously I'm missing something. Could someone explain to me why monks arent very good?

Because you picked the wrong forums to ask about monks. Try another or you'll only get a lot of monk hate.

Anyway I don't see why you necessarily have to fluff monks as eastern. Do the same thing you do with fighters or barbarians. As long as they're lawful, disciplined fighters you can do almost anything (and as the DM you can change even the lawful part). While the mageocrats study books with discipline, they study the arts of the body and self. Perhaps libraries even have ascetic texts to this effect, or masters who shun books and rely on oral tradition.

With evasion, saves, SR and high grapple damage in a mageocratic society, they're most likely fulfilling some kind of support role, tackling the mages that shunned exercise and damaging them while simultaneously preventing casting. Which is quite viable before level 15, btw. Really idc if 2% are immune or if the rest avoid it 2% of the time with incredibly specific preparation and lucky rolls. I mean I might as well make a futile effort to cut off corner case arguments now b/c I'm not coming back to this thread when it blows up in short order. Yeah, OP, try other forums. You'll at least find help from a few without getting ostracized and your question ignored.

There are also a lot of good buffs for monks on the wizard spell list. They could work well together. Whether that's a shared disciplined force or a mental/physical reluctant alliance fluff is your call.

[Curious]

Because you picked the wrong forums to ask about monks. Try another or you'll only get a lot of monk hate.

Anyway I don't see why you necessarily have to fluff monks as eastern. Do the same thing you do with fighters or barbarians. As long as they're lawful, disciplined fighters you can do almost anything (and as the DM you can change even the lawful part). While the mageocrats study books with discipline, they study the arts of the body and self. Perhaps libraries even have ascetic texts to this effect, or masters who shun books and rely on oral tradition.

With evasion, saves, SR and high grapple damage in a mageocratic society, they're most likely fulfilling some kind of support role, tackling the mages that shunned exercise and damaging them while simultaneously preventing casting. Which is quite viable before level 15, btw. Really idc if 2% are immune or if the rest avoid it 2% of the time with incredibly specific preparation and lucky rolls. I mean I might as well make a futile effort to cut off corner case arguments now b/c I'm not coming back to this thread when it blows up in short order. Yeah, OP, try other forums.

Here we go. . .

[Lateral]

Although the monk concept is great, it really needs a fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122).

I'd just like to mention this again. There are plenty of great homebrew fixes on these boards; my personal favorites are Jiriku's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122) and T.G. Oskar's fix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126346) Pick your favorite and use that instead.


Here we go. . .
Pretty much, yeah. I'm going to make the following sentence impossible to miss, just so everyone sees it:

Guys, we've hashed this out a bajillion times; can we just let sleeping dogs lie? Just this once? Please?

[TroubleBrewing]

I'd just like to mention this again. There are plenty of great homebrew fixes on these boards; my personal favorites are Jiriku's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122) and T.G. Oskar's fix. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126346) Pick your favorite and use that instead.

My personal favorite fixes are the ones that WotC provided in the form of the Psychic Warrior and the Unarmed Swordsage, and if you want to get exotic and nature-y, the Totemist.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Because you picked the wrong forums to ask about monks. Try another or you'll only get a lot of monk hate.

Alright. Go ask about it on the WotC forums. Or the BG forums. Or any forums where builds that are more effective than the cookie cuter healbot, blaster, or sword n' boarder aren't vehemently hated (so basically anything other than the Paizo forums).

[Lateral]

My personal favorite fixes are the ones that WotC provided in the form of the Psychic Warrior and the Unarmed Swordsage, and if you want to get exotic and nature-y, the Totemist.
Well, the Totemist is more like a shamanistic form of Barbarian/Druid thing and less like a Monk. You're right; however, it's nice to have a base class that does what a Monk does, in the form of a Monk with similar (but better) mechanics to what an ordinary monk has, only not sucking.

Alright. Go ask about it on the WotC forums. Or the BG forums. Or any forums where builds that are more effective than the cookie cuter healbot, blaster, or sword n' boarder aren't vehemently hated (so basically anything other than the Paizo forums).

Please, please don't start an argument. Can't we just friggin' advise the OP and leave debating out of this?

[TroubleBrewing]

Well, the Totemist is more like a shamanistic form of Barbarian/Druid thing and less like a Monk. You're right; however, it's nice to have a base class that does what a Monk does, in the form of a Monk with similar (but better) mechanics to what an ordinary monk has, only not sucking.


I actually built a pretty decent Ranger/Totemist/FoF/Totem Rager for a game once. It was really fun, and all my friends thought I was playing some kind of ungodly Monk/Barbarian hybrid with a freaky-pseudo-magic template.

It isn't that unarmed fighters are bad, it's just that the typical chassis inexperienced players go to for their martial artist fix is.

[Steward]

Also, tongue of the sun and the moon is not just Tongues. It's also speak with animals. (And speak with plants, depending on how your DM interprets "living creatures.")

I did said that. It's the 3rd-level spell Tongues + the 1st level spell Speak with Animals. You could interpret 'creatures' to mean 'plants' but that's a stretch!

This is why that ability wouldn't make monks too useful in any kind of magic-using society. If you're pushing level 20 and only now getting things that are slightly better than what the majority of the population got at their 1st and 3rd caster level, you're not going to contribute much.

The main advantage that a monk has over a Wizard is their physical ability, not their array of mediocre tricks. A monk contributing to a wizard-dominated society would probably specialize not in 'Tongue of the Sun and Moon' but as a sort of magical police force for an occupied area. If the wizard government has some kind of imperialist ambitions, they probably have to contend with the fact that they're in a high-magic world and even a weak vassal state can probably produce a bunch of sorcerers of its own. To deal with that, they can give a group of loyal, well-trained monk KGB types specialized gear (Wands of Silence?) or even create a customized anti-magic field over occupied areas. The monks can pacify the region safely and the wizards don't have to get their hands dirty.

In fact, for added intrigue, the wizards might end up relying on monks to do the boring melee stuff so much that the monks end up becoming a powerful force (politically) on their own.

[gkathellar]

It isn't that unarmed fighters are bad, it's just that the typical chassis inexperienced players go to for their martial artist fix is.

Well, partially that, and partially that unarmed fighters are unfairly penalized by magic item costs and such. It is explicitly harder to make a functional unarmed fighter than an armed one, unless you're running something like Totemist or Psychic Warrior, and there's no reason for this.

Honestly, even without Talashtora, PW seems to capture the whole spirit of being a meditative supernatural warrior far better than the original monk.


Alright. Go ask about it on the WotC forums. Or the BG forums. Or any forums where builds that are more effective than the cookie cuter healbot, blaster, or sword n' boarder aren't vehemently hated (so basically anything other than the Paizo forums).

DNFT.

[Curious]

-Snip-

Nah, ToB classes would take care of that in a much more efficient manner.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Just use Unarmed Swordsages from Tome of Battle. Or Psychic Warriors in XPH and on the SRD and use the "psionics is different" rule. Then make them the guards of Azkaban the wizard prison, with the entire area being covered in either permanent anti-magic fields or just be a magic dead zone.

Monk works too, I guess.

[Steward]

Nah, ToB classes would take care of that in a much more efficient manner.

I agree completely, but if you think about it, there really isn't anything that a monk can do that some class somewhere can't do 10x better with 1/10th of the level of optimization work. I wasn't trying to go for crunch value, just coming up with ways to re-'flavor' a monk to suit a magic-dominated game.

[NNescio]

The main advantage that a monk has over a Wizard is their physical ability, not their array of mediocre tricks. A monk contributing to a wizard-dominated society would probably specialize not in 'Tongue of the Sun and Moon' but as a sort of magical police force for an occupied area. If the wizard government has some kind of imperialist ambitions, they probably have to contend with the fact that they're in a high-magic world and even a weak vassal state can probably produce a bunch of sorcerers of its own. To deal with that, they can give a group of loyal, well-trained monk KGB types specialized gear (Wands of Silence?) or even create a customized anti-magic field over occupied areas. The monks can pacify the region safely and the wizards don't have to get their hands dirty.

Or, I don't know, just field generic Warriors and Experts. Assuming summoned creatures, constructs, and undead are off the table.


I did said that. It's the 3rd-level spell Tongues + the 1st level spell Speak with Animals. You could interpret 'creatures' to mean 'plants' but that's a stretch!

Plant creatures (half of the Speak with Plants function) and Oozes are explicitly living creatures.

[TroubleBrewing]

I agree completely, but if you think about it, there really isn't anything that a monk can do that some class somewhere can't do 10x better with 1/10th of the level of optimization work.

Therein lies the problem.

[Steward]

Or, I don't know, just field generic Warriors and Experts. Assuming summoned creatures, constructs, and undead are off the table.

Again, yeah, there are better ways (Constructs and undead especially -- I don't think summoned creatures work too well in anti-magic fields), but that's really the problem with monks, isn't it? They're not invaluable; there is nothing that they can do that another class or even a monster couldn't do better. I don't dispute that at all. I'm just saying, if you insist on including monks in a high magic game, this is one example of something that you could do with them.



Plant creatures (half of the Speak with Plants function) and Oozes are explicitly living creatures.

Sorry, I thought when the original poster of that comment said 'plants' they meant 'plants' and not 'plant creatures'. They still gain this ability far, far later than any other class that has it does.


Therein lies the problem.

Yep. That's why the OP probably also wants variant rules and new class features to go with the new fluff.

[Chambers]

In a high magic wizard run society, Monks makes a good NPC class. As a PC class it doesn't work, but for a certain social class (mystics, scholars, um...page boys for real wizards) their powers fit into a high magic world. With Diplomacy, two useful Knowledges and Sense Motive, they have decent skills for being low ranking servants of important people.

Just treat it like an NPC class and give it to people involved in the running of the magocracy but aren't wizards themselves.

[ericgrau]

Alright. Go ask about it on the WotC forums. Or the BG forums. Or any forums where builds that are more effective than the cookie cuter healbot, blaster, or sword n' boarder aren't vehemently hated (so basically anything other than the Paizo forums).

The OP will find help without getting instantly ostracized and his question ignored. Very first google results for two major sites:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/312791-monk-imp-unarmed-strike.html
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869110/monk_minmax_creation_guide

Like I said KnejaTurch, pick any forum in the world except here, bring your question, get answers. Enworld's good, wizards.com used to be good but they had a bit of a 3.5 slump during the edition wars / forum failures. So I dunno where they're at now. What's BG?

[Curious]

The OP will find help without getting instantly ostracized and his question ignored. Very first google results for two major sites:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/312791-monk-imp-unarmed-strike.html
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869110/monk_minmax_creation_guide

Actually, there was never any kind of ostracism or ignoring of the question. The monk is well known to be a terrible class, and informing the OP of this, and recommending a better class for him is completely within the spirit of any such thread.

[Lateral]

The OP will find help without getting instantly ostracized and his question ignored. Very first google results for two major sites:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/312791-monk-imp-unarmed-strike.html
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869110/monk_minmax_creation_guide

...Dude, you do realize that we gave, like, a million suggestions about his character concept anyway, right? Also, later, he asked why we thought Monks were bad, and we told him. In a way that didn't involve starting a thread war.

Speaking of not starting thread wars, let's not start a thread war, here. Eric's entitled to his opinion. Just don't start whining about Monks and stuff and how everyone else here has a different opinion from you, because... well, everyone else here has a different opinion from you. I'm not trying to insult you, by the way, so don't interpret it like that; just trying to prevent this from degenerating into that. :smallsmile:

Actually, there was never any kind of ostracization (dunno if this is actually a word) or ignoring of the question. The monk is well known to be a terrible class, and informing the OP of this, and recommending a better class for him is completely within the spirit of any such thread.

Ostracism.

[ericgrau]

There are about 1.5 posts directly addressing his question. Contrast to first responses in links. I'm not kidding when I suggest to him to go register at one of those sites.

[Curious]

Ostracism.

Ah, that was it! Thank you. :smallsmile:

[Lateral]

There are about 1.5 posts directly addressing his question. Contrast to first responses in links. I'm not kidding when I suggest to him to go register at one of those sites.

Really.


Because they're the dull rock to a wizard's howitzer?

OP, as others have mentioned and explained, monks suck, but this doesn't really clarify how much monks suck. A monk is tangentially better than an Aristocrat, and can be beaten by a reasonably optimized Expert.

That said, there are like seven dozen excellent monk fixes on the Homebrew Forum, so all joking aside their incredible sucktitude should not necessarily discourage you.

You can really take two approaches to monks in any setting: either they're martial artists, or actual monks who happen to do martial arts. The former approach just indicates deeply physical people who are students of their own bodies in the same way wizards are students of reality's fundamental shape. The second approach is a more Buddhist/Taoist one, and typically implies that their physical studies are a means to an end, an aid to their understanding of reality's fundamental shape.

In either case, there is a focus on physicality and the mysteries hidden behind it which could make them a weird and generally disliked sect in a magocratic setting.


High-magic society? Well. I'd imagine that you'd end up with a world so utterly infused with magic that almost everyone would WANT to be magical. Cantrips wouldn't be hugely uncommon among the peasants. And magic.. well, magic does some wonky things.

You see, some people are born with magic in their blood. Some are born capable of performing feats of logic and twisting magic to their will with their brains. And then you have those whose very bodies are infused with magic. These last are the Monks. They learn to be faster, more resilient against diseases, and in the right situations, to defy gravity as they fall. None of their tricks are quite as strong as what you'd expect from a Wizard, because for the most part they can't access the Real Magic (enlightened fists and the like notwithstanding), but they perform feats that most would find to be impossible.

That's the good sell. The other side of this is that Monks are your world's version of Rock Lee - they can't do magic at all, so they learn how to punch things a lot. And when they fight a real wizard, they lose.


To point out something that's just fluff and not game mechanics: A monastary would actually be a good place to improve mental discipline, and a quiet place to study magic, away from all the explosions of a mage academy. It would also be worth a visit for people who want to increase their ranks in Knowledge (religion).

Although the monk concept is great, it really needs a fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122).

With the fix, monks can be much more useful to mages as protectors and sneaks, since they tend to be better company than your typical big dumb fighter (to a caster, anyways.) and more trustworthy than the average rogue. They're also better at taking out enemy casters, when the need arises. (All good saves, evasion, better spell resistance, sense the void makes invisibility weaker if you take the ACF, and other goodies.)

Also, tongue of the sun and the moon is not just Tongues. It's also speak with animals. (And speak with plants, depending on how your DM interprets "living creatures.")


I did said that. It's the 3rd-level spell Tongues + the 1st level spell Speak with Animals. You could interpret 'creatures' to mean 'plants' but that's a stretch!

This is why that ability wouldn't make monks too useful in any kind of magic-using society. If you're pushing level 20 and only now getting things that are slightly better than what the majority of the population got at their 1st and 3rd caster level, you're not going to contribute much.

The main advantage that a monk has over a Wizard is their physical ability, not their array of mediocre tricks. A monk contributing to a wizard-dominated society would probably specialize not in 'Tongue of the Sun and Moon' but as a sort of magical police force for an occupied area. If the wizard government has some kind of imperialist ambitions, they probably have to contend with the fact that they're in a high-magic world and even a weak vassal state can probably produce a bunch of sorcerers of its own. To deal with that, they can give a group of loyal, well-trained monk KGB types specialized gear (Wands of Silence?) or even create a customized anti-magic field over occupied areas. The monks can pacify the region safely and the wizards don't have to get their hands dirty.

In fact, for added intrigue, the wizards might end up relying on monks to do the boring melee stuff so much that the monks end up becoming a powerful force (politically) on their own.


In a high magic wizard run society, Monks makes a good NPC class. As a PC class it doesn't work, but for a certain social class (mystics, scholars, um...page boys for real wizards) their powers fit into a high magic world. With Diplomacy, two useful Knowledges and Sense Motive, they have decent skills for being low ranking servants of important people.

Just treat it like an NPC class and give it to people involved in the running of the magocracy but aren't wizards themselves.


This.

Although, if you have your average "monk" actually be Sacred Fists, they'd make pretty good Middle Ages-style Christian monks. The kind that are all enlightened. Also, they could be an insular order who dress in brown robes with concealing hoods and have an overarching plan for the world and work behind the scenes, manipulating to get it done. Like the Illuminati.


Inherent flaws in Monks aside, it would seem that in a high-magic magocracy monks would lean more towards the aesthetic value of the world. As in, where wizards draw on Arcane power for their spells, and Clerics rule the religious aspect, Monks would be a considerably smaller order of individuals who pride themselves not on an otherworldly power but the perfection of themselves.

The train their minds and bodies to become resistant to these otherworldly powers (their SR they eventually get) as well as a depth of fortitude rarely achieved by others (yay disease free!). They learn the pressure points of humanoids and can incapacitate them easily, but they tend to avoid magical enhancement (perhaps every single one getting a Vow of Poverty?). All in all, monks are those who have forsaken magic and try to perfect their souls.

Of course, the blatant downside to this is the while this fluff seems to work out okay, its fairly obvious monks don't do this stuff as well as... well... pretty much anyone else.


Why would there NOT be some obscure monastery in some remote area training monks in their traditional fighting style? Unless you specifically take them out, I see no reason for them not to be in the game. The monks training is pretty similar to the wizards (and cleric). It takes full dedication and years of long study and practise, but their study subject is their body rather than arcane magic (or divine).If any base class was gonna get the boot in the setting you're describing, it would be the barbarian for being the "no study whatsoever" class.

Yes, those aren't all only related to the OP's original question, but all of them have input on it. 1.5? Closer to 15. :small amused:

...You know what? I'm not gonna bother telling you guys to avoid an argument anymore. I've said it enough, you obviously know my opinion on this pointless rehashing of an endless argument; what you do now is up to you guys. Mostly you, Eric.

[NNescio]

The OP will find help without getting instantly ostracized and his question ignored. Very first google results for two major sites:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/312791-monk-imp-unarmed-strike.html
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869110/monk_minmax_creation_guide

First link has somebody deriding the monk on the first reply, 'though the poster did provide three feat suggestions. Rest of the posts consist of people correcting the OP's poor grasp of the rules, with him stubbornly refusing to listen.

Sounds similar to our forum.

Second link is... is... *twitch* GAH! It predates the release of 3.5e! The posters on the first page are speculating!

...

[Grendus]

Question - how high level are the mages in question? If we're talking 6th level, a moderately optimized monk will fit in well enough. He'll be starting to feel superfluous, but he'll still have his moments. If we're talking level 20... well, by level 20 the only melee that matters is the CoDzilla, and even then they're mostly sipping champagne in the wizard's private demiplane and reminiscing about the good times they had back when they were low level and the monk was actually worth noticing.

A lot is going to depend on optimization though. In a low level, low op campaign, monks would make good body guards. All you need to do is make sure your enemies don't sneak weapons into the palace and you're good, if they decide to start a fight the monks hold a serious advantage in both AC and offensive power. In high level, high op settings, muggles are basically unnecessary period, even the ToB classes are underwhelming. Body guarding will have been replaced by Planar Allies and Planar Bound thugs who are actual outsiders and worthy of their CR. Presuming your party is average op though, the monk should do ok. Maybe let him flurry as an attack action (instead of a full round action) and he'll be ok until level 8 or so.



Or, you know, you could just make an Unarmed Swordsage. They're really fun, and fit the fluff perfectly.

[Starbuck_II]

Also, tongue of the sun and the moon is not just Tongues. It's also speak with animals. (And speak with plants, depending on how your DM interprets "living creatures.")

Plants are objects not creatures in D&D; unless you mean plant type like shambering mounds.

There is sadly no way to speak to a rose in D&D. :smallfrown:

[NNescio]

Plants are objects not creatures in D&D; unless you mean plant type like shambering mounds.

There is sadly no way to speak to a rose in D&D. :smallfrown:

Speak with Plants can do so, since it's not limited to creatures, unlike Tongue of the Sun and Moon.


You can comprehend and communicate with plants, including both normal plants and plant creatures.

[ThatLovin'Elan]

Didn't see anyone say: The PF Monk is marginally better than the 3.5 monk; the Pathfinder Monk with a few good archetypes and style feats from Ultimate Combat comes in at about tier 4 - good alongside a Barbarian, Rogue, PF Paladin, Ranger, etc.

As far as the OP is concerned, I'm all for Monks and Psions being lumped into one group. Arcane magic and Divine magic come from without; psionics and true physical strength come from within. While a Wizard exploits the power reserves of the universe and the Cleric runs to their god for help, the Monk and the Psion master themselves mind and body to unleash their fullest potential.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Didn't see anyone say: The PF Monk is marginally better than the 3.5 monk; the Pathfinder Monk with a few good archetypes and style feats from Ultimate Combat comes in at about tier 4 - good alongside a Barbarian, Rogue, PF Paladin, Ranger, etc.

It's because PF monk is still worse than Psychic Warrior with Superior Unarmed Strike or Tashalatora, or just Unarmed Swordsage. Or any of the monk gish PrCs.

[Starbuck_II]

Didn't see anyone say: The PF Monk is marginally better than the 3.5 monk; the Pathfinder Monk with a few good archetypes and style feats from Ultimate Combat comes in at about tier 4 - good alongside a Barbarian, Rogue, PF Paladin, Ranger, etc.

As far as the OP is concerned, I'm all for Monks and Psions being lumped into one group. Arcane magic and Divine magic come from without; psionics and true physical strength come from within. While a Wizard exploits the power reserves of the universe and the Cleric runs to their god for help, the Monk and the Psion master themselves mind and body to unleash their fullest potential.

The PF Monk can get magic thr Quigong, so yes, they are better.

[Basket Burner]

...Yes you can. You can take a standard action to lower your SR.

See? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance)

"You spend your turn doing nothing but removing the thing that is interfering with your ability to get buffed and healed."


There are plenty of friendly spells that don't allow spell resistance, and plenty of buffs that last long enough for you to get your buff on before any enemies are close enough for your standard action to be worth anything.

And by the time you have any SR at all, you move further in a move action than most people do on a double move, so you're not losing any ground either.

Not that Monk SR is good, or anything. But still.

Land speed. Everyone is flying at that point, which means they are at least as fast as you, and your speed boost does not help anymore.

I maintain that they make for an excellent renewable resource and training grounds material.

[Calthropstu]

So much hate for monks.


If you don't like em, don't play em. The OP was asking a legitimate question, not for retarded "I hate monk" posts.
[/rant]

Here are some good fluff choices to the monk if you don't want standard eastern style:
The way of enlightened warrior: In a land filled with powerful magic, it is easy to lose focus on self. These monks eschew worldly passions and use the martial arts as a focus to train their minds and bodies. They offer sanctuary to any, former criminals, orphans, the homeless, escaped slaves... all are welcomed at their door. Any who come must work and train. Most turn away before gaining the ability of a monk, but all leave with at least some enlightenment. A monk of this type would go around preaching the virtues of charity, oneness with the self, and the necessity for work.

The way of the solo warrior: Using the jedi style of master/apprentice, these monks pass on their knowledge from generation to generation. Few in number, they go around performing deeds based on the nature of their alignment. They don't form schools, but take on singular apprentices and train them until they are strong enough to go their own path. Wanderers, these monks would be most likely to join an adventuring group.

The militant monk: These monks are trained for one purpose: war. They serve in military fashion owing allegiance to someone of high rank and have strict codes of conduct. Serving as bodyguards, enforcers and, if called upon, soldiers, these monks train for the sole purpose of battle. These monks are efficient killers. only using their abilities at the behest of their master. If you go this route, the PC would either have to be working for a lord, or marked for death.

There are some other ways you could fluff them, all would be usable.

[Chambers]

Mod of the Broken Pattern: Necromancy is not a Monk ability.