'%$@#ING GRIFFONS;' a retrospective strategy (Pathfinder advice)

[Nexaduro]

So, the situation is this:

An intrepid young summoner:
Kasiewirj (Kazi)
Male Young Human Summoner 5 | [Chaotic Good]
Description
Age ???
Looks White hair, Blue eyes
Height/Weight 4'6" tall, 70lbs. (Small)
Homeland ???
Deity ???
Campaign Ocean of a Problem
Representing Nexaduro
Strength
7 (-2)
Dexterity
12 (+1)
Constitution
12 (+1)
Intelligence
14 (+2)
Wisdom
8 (-1)
Charisma
20 (+5)

Initiative +1 = 1 [Dex]
Action Points (Lifetime) 9

SKILL Total + Ability Mod. + Ranks + Misc.
Acrobatics* +1 = DEX 1+0+0
Appraise +2 = INT 2+0+0
Bluff +9 = CHA 5+4+0
Climb* -2 = STR -2+0+0
Diplomacy +9 = CHA 5+1+3
Disable Device*† +1 = DEX 1+0+0
Disguise +5 = CHA 5+0+0
Escape Artist* +1 = DEX 1+0+0
Fly* +1 = DEX 1+0+0
Handle Animal† +5 = CHA 5+0+0
Heal -1 = WIS -1+0+0
Intimidate +5 = CHA 5+0+0
K (Arcana)† +6 = INT 2+1+3
K (Dungeoneering)† +6 = INT 2+1+3
K (Engineering)† +2 = INT 2+0+0
K (Geography)† +2 = INT 2+0+0
K (History)† +6 = INT 2+1+3
K (Local)† +2 = INT 2+0+0
K (Nature)† +6 = INT 2+1+3
K (Nobility)† +2 = INT 2+0+0
K (Planes)† +6 = INT 2+1+3
K (Religion)† +6 = INT 2+1+3
Linguistics† +2 = INT 2+0+0
Perception -1 = WIS -1+0+0
Ride +1 = DEX 1+0+0
Sense Motive -1 = WIS -1+0+0
Sleight of Hand*† +1 = DEX 1+0+0
Spellcraft† +11 = INT 2+6+3
Stealth* +14 = DEX 1+6+3+4 [Small]
Survival -1 = WIS -1+0+0
Swim* -2 = STR -2+0+0
Use Magic Device† +14 = CHA 5+6+3

* Armor Check Penalty -1
† Trained Only

Equipment
Explorer's Outfit
Adventurer's Sash
Masterwork Backpack
Waterproof Bag
Spell Component Pouch
Money Pouch [23g, 5sp]

Notes

Base Speed [ 20 (4 sq.) ]

AC [15] = 10 + 3 [Studded Leather] +1 [Dex] +1 [Small Size]
Touch AC [12] Flat-Footed [14]

Base Attack Bonus +3
Basic Melee Attack +2
Basic Ranged Attack +5

Darkwood Light Crossbow +7 19-20/x2
Piercing 80 ft. 10 1d6

Fortitude Save +2 = 1 [base] +1 [Con]
Reflex Save +2 = 1 [base] +1 [Dex]
Will Save +3 = 4 [base] -1 [Wis]

CMB +0 = 3 [BAB] -2 [Str] -1 [size]
CMD +11 = 3 [BAB] -2 [Str] +1 [Dex] -1 [size] + 10
Feats
Extra Evolution
Extra Evolution
Resilient Eidolon
Craft Wondrous Item

Traits
World Traveler (Human)
Badland Highlander

Carrying Capacity
Light Load: 26lbs.
Medium Load: 46lbs.
Heavy Load: 70lbs.

Languages
Aklo
Common
Sylvan

2 Bonus Languages (Int)
Summoner Spells Per Day
Level 1 4 + 2 [Cha]
Level 2 2 + 1 [Cha]
Summoner Spells Known
Level 0 6
Level 1 4
Level 2 3

Summoner
Shield Ally
Bond Senses
Cantrips
Eidolon
Life Link
Summon Monster 3

Hit Points 45
8 [first lvl] +1 [Con]
+6 [Summoner lvl 2] +1 [Con]
+4 [Summoner lvl 3] +1 [Con]
+5 [Summoner lvl 4] +1 [Con]
+8 [Summoner lvl 5] +1 [Con]
+8 [Summoner lvl 6] +1 [Con]
+0 [Favored Class]

Spells:

Level 0:
Detect Magic
Guidance
Mage Hand
Mending
Open/Close
Read Magic
Level 1:
Enlarge Person
Grease
Mage Armour
Protection from Evil
Level 2:
Barkskin
Evolution Surge, Lesser
Glitterdust
Haste
And his faithful Eidolon:
--------------------
Zaladine
--------------------
CG Medium outsider
Init +2; Senses: darkvision 60 ft.
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 22, touch 12, flat-footed 20 (+2 Dex, +10 natural)
hp 61 (5d10+26)
Fort +8, Ref +3, Will +4
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee slam +9 (2d6+6 plus 1d6 cold)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +5; CMB +9; CMD 21
Feats Improved Natural Attack, Combat Reflexes
Skills Acrobatics +9, Perception +7, Stealth +10, Swim +8
Languages Common, Sylvan, Aklo
SQ link, share spells, evasion
--------------------
EVOLUTIONS
--------------------
1-Point: Improved Natural Armor (+4), Unnatural Aura
2-Point: Ability Increase (Con +4), Energy Attacks (Cold), Fly
Have both sustained injuries (Summoner is at approx. half health, Eidolon is about 5/6ths) in combat with three Griffons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/griffon) (one dead, one down about six HP, one completely fine), are in a bit of a pinch. The Griffons flying overhead can easily flank them if they try to escape, and would chase the Summoner to the ends of Golarion to avenge their fallen comrade. The environment is open plains with sparse trees and bushes, there is no hope for assistance, and we'll assume that both sides make every shot with no crits and maximum damage rolls on the Griffon's side.

How would YOU deal with the given situation? When this happened in my campaign last week, it took three of my Hero Points to survive and even then I was left stranded in the middle of nowhere with severe injuries. I'd rather not repeat that Pyrrhic victory, and barring the success of my Griffon-genocide plans it may very well happen again.

If this thread is improperly placed, please let me know. I'm still a bit new to this forum.:smalltongue:

[Gavinfoxx]

Plead for forgiveness? Bargain with them? Trick them? They're sentient, but kinda dumb... go all brer fox on them! ;)

[Nexaduro]

Plead for forgiveness? Bargain with them? Trick them? They're sentient, but kinda dumb... go all brer fox on them! ;)
My GM said, after I killed the first one, they would pretty much go to any length to END ME. Diplomacy of the conventional sort was kinda... Ruled out by that point. Plus, I don't think he would appreciate me trying to bargain with the Random Encounters.

[Gavinfoxx]

Not DIPLOMACY. TRICKERY. Bluffs, stuff that you can use to manipulate an Int 5 creature to do what you want by using your larger intelligence and ability to likely predict what it will do to fool it.

And why would he have them fight to the death? Most creatures will only fight to the death to protect their children...

[Larpus]

Indeed, Bluff the hell out of their bird brains, convince them their fallen comrade was under the effects of a curse or something and had to be put down. Promise to raise it from the dead if you have to.

Worse comes to worse, use your Eidolon as cover and bail out (since the Eidolon doesn't truly die, I don't think he'll mind).

Other possibilities, Evolution Surge the Eidolon to sprout wings, fly up to one of the griffons and grapple it, causing it (and the Eidolon) to fall flat on the ground.

[Anderlith]

They are still animals, tell them that you have taken out the pack leader & now assume command.

[awa]

trying to convince you that your friend was under a magical compulsions sound like a pretty heft penalty not to mention bluffing takes a minimum of 1rd more for complex deceit could you survive doing nothing for 1 +rounds and letting them full attack you? not to mention they may have low int but they have above average wisdom so they are not that vulnerable to bluffing.
edit they arnt animals they have an int of 5 smarter then some humans. and even if they were animals it still wouldn't do any good becuase they wouldn't be able to understand you

[Keld Denar]

Freakin Griffons! How do they work?
sorry, it had to be said...

[hangedman1984]

Freakin Griffons! How do they work?
sorry, it had to be said...

with magnets

[deuxhero]

Tanglefoot bag them to remove their flight (Even if they save, they can only move half speed, which with average mobility means straight ahead with no detours) and reduce them to 15 feet walking speed for 2d4 rounds. Hit one of the Grifons with one to start out.

If you didn't have tanglefoot bags, it is your own fault. They are cheep and stop flight under good with no save.

edit: I notice you have glitterdust. If the remaing Griffons were ever close enough to hit both you should use it. Even with PF's nerf to it, their will save is poor. Blind flyers are pretty screwed

[Nexaduro]

trying to convince you that your friend was under a magical compulsions sound like a pretty heft penalty not to mention bluffing takes a minimum of 1rd more for complex deceit could you survive doing nothing for 1 +rounds and letting them full attack you? not to mention they may have low int but they have above average wisdom so they are not that vulnerable to bluffing.
edit they arnt animals they have an int of 5 smarter then some humans. and even if they were animals it still wouldn't do any good becuase they wouldn't be able to understand you
This is pretty much it. Though they do understand Common.

My GM had them go straight for me and completely ignore the Eidolon after I killed the first Griffon, even the time I used a Hero Point on the Glitterdust DC they made their saves, and I regrettably spent all my money on a cloak (that shoots lightning and predicts weather in a generally seafaring campaign) and the Nacreous Grey Orb Ioun Stone in my backstory.

Also, I'm certain that if those were magnetic Griffons I wouldn't have had nearly enough Hero Points to survive.

[Larpus]

with magnets
Nope! Chuck Testa.

But seriously, wow, wow, wow, wow, hold yer horses!

The griffons seriously completely ignored a 18 Str 18 Con aberration to attack a 7 Str weakling? Are they retarded?

I mean, they're smart, but not that smart, certainly not human smart (in Pathfinder your average joe will have 10 Int, so they're considerably dumber), so they have absolutely no way of telling that you're a bigger threat than a hulking flexing freak of nature that, as far as they can tell, wants to eat their faces.

And griffons have 13 Wis, that's not high by any standards. Better than normal, sure, but not high at all, so that's just a +1 on their Sense Motive and then they have a -2 from their bird-brained Int to actually rationalize and think that what you just said doesn't make that much sense, so you have a much bigger leeway of what you can tell them to get on their good terms.

[Leon]

If the PC was the one that killed the Griffon then they are quite legit in attacking it over the pet, the Griffons after all are not aware that the PC is a Str 7 weakling.

If the Pet starts to hit and hurt them they may change to attack it, and while they do the PC should make like a tree and leaf.

[grarrrg]

This is off topic, but still helpul.
I apologize if it sound rude or snide, text without emotion will do that. I intend only to be helpful.

To Nexaduro: Bonus points for posting your Char/Eidolon stats. But in the future try to stick to what's relevant to the post, it will save you time typing, and other posters time reading (wall of text typically leads to "Too long, did not read").

In this case, your thread is "Me vs. Griffons", so you only need post combat relevant stats.
Your posted HP is a good example. You have it broken down by how much you gained each level. We only need to know Current HP and Max HP.

Thank you for reading and welcome to the boards.

[Larpus]

If the PC was the one that killed the Griffon then they are quite legit in attacking it over the pet, the Griffons after all are not aware that the PC is a Str 7 weakling.

If the Pet starts to hit and hurt them they may change to attack it, and while they do the PC should make like a tree and leaf.
Someone with 7 Str looks considerably weaker than someone with 18, no two ways about it, so unless the Summoner wrestled with the griffon by shklerself, there is no reason for the griffons to think of shklee as the biggest threat. Sure, they might swear vengeance upon the Summoner for dealing the last blow, but they'll still pay more attention to the Eidolon, who is much more menacing and dangerous overall (also, I don't think they have enough Int to understand magic at all).

[awa]

in regards to understanding you i meant if they were animals they would not speak common. also int has nothing to do with detecting lies in dnd. and the penalty for convincing an enemy his allies are mindcontroled and thus you should be allowed to kill them is in the -20 region.
edit
they could be a caster with that int just not a wizard. and besides vengence isnt logical

[Larpus]

in regards to understanding you i meant if they were animals they would not speak common. also int has nothing to do with detecting lies in dnd. and the penalty for convincing an enemy his allies are mindcontroled and thus you should be allowed to kill them is in the -20 region.
edit
they could be a caster with that int just not a wizard. and besides vengence isnt logical
Well, since Int also means speed of thought and all that, in the tables I frequent it's not unheard of a "house-rule" where the Int of the victim is used to calculate how believable the lie is (it's not really a house-rule per se, it's just applying the RAW despite it not being specifically written anywhere).

Putting it into more palatable terms, if you're trying to convince a guard that his superior called him elsewhere so you can pass, against someone with little Int it would be a pretty easy lie, probably flat DC. However, someone with a higher Int (13+) would be more likely to remember his captain mentioning not to leave his post by any means, now suddenly the liar has a -5 or even -10 on his lie.

That's what I meant by they being dumb and easy to fool. In the mammalian birds' case, a simple "he was cursed, didn't you notice him acting strange lately?" would have a -5 or -10 at best (if at all), the birds would "think" about it and come to the conclusion that, indeed, Bob "has" been acting strange lately, a pretty easy trick to pull actually.

But yes, I do grant that they could be Wis-based casters, but then the question remains as to if they would have what it takes to fully grasp the dangers and implications of magic to the point of putting a frowny little thing over a hulking monster they never saw on their "should kill asap" chart; let alone the fact that divine and arcane magic are different enough so a Wizard who has done nothing but study magic his whole life still has no idea what to do with a CLW wand.

[Talentless]

This is pretty much it. Though they do understand Common.

My GM had them go straight for me and completely ignore the Eidolon after I killed the first Griffon, even the time I used a Hero Point on the Glitterdust DC they made their saves, and I regrettably spent all my money on a cloak (that shoots lightning and predicts weather in a generally seafaring campaign) and the Nacreous Grey Orb Ioun Stone in my backstory.

Also, I'm certain that if those were magnetic Griffons I wouldn't have had nearly enough Hero Points to survive.

Honestly it sounds to me like you're DM wanted you dead by any means.

Did he roll the griffon's saves where you could see them? Because unless he Nat 20'd every save, I don't see how he could possibly get a griffon to make will saves that consistantly, especially considering how Will saves are the lowest save on a griffon and you hero point beefed out the DC...

So, DM is a cheating bastard? :smallfrown:

[Leon]

Someone with 7 Str looks considerably weaker than someone with 18, no two ways about it, so unless the Summoner wrestled with the griffon by shklerself, there is no reason for the griffons to think of shklee as the biggest threat. Sure, they might swear vengeance upon the Summoner for dealing the last blow, but they'll still pay more attention to the Eidolon, who is much more menacing and dangerous overall (also, I don't think they have enough Int to understand magic at all).

What a Str 7 vs a Str 18 looks like is a moot point if the STr 7 PC still was the source of the killing attack.
Looking menacing is as about as useful as a chocolate teapot in D&D.

If something is causing damage to a creature (be it highly intelligent or not so much) its more likely going to try and go for the source of its distress than the meaning looking but not harmful creature to the side - if that creature then starts to cause damage its likely that it could attract the attention.

[Nexaduro]

Honestly it sounds to me like you're DM wanted you dead by any means.

Did he roll the griffon's saves where you could see them? Because unless he Nat 20'd every save, I don't see how he could possibly get a griffon to make will saves that consistantly, especially considering how Will saves are the lowest save on a griffon and you hero point beefed out the DC...

So, DM is a cheating bastard? :smallfrown:
The Griffons pretty much just seemed to get incredibly lucky for the entire battle. I also forgot to point out that the DM thought +4 was the bonus for Hero Points, and the Griffon in question rolled a nineteen I believe. My fellow player and I pointed out his error, rerolled, and the second time the darn thing failed the save.

However, it still hit me with a full attack despite the 50% miss and K.O.'d me. By that point it was a ground battle because the first Griffon I killed grappled me before it died and ended up pulling my Eidolon and myself out of the sky.
--------------------------------------------
Since I don't yet know how to multiquote:
@Leon: They didn't know I was Strength 7, perhaps, but as a side note Kasiewirj is biologically twelve soooo... yeah. Also, technically a lightning bolt from the clouds killed the Griffon, they just figured it was me since it was the third during that fight.

@grarrrg: Thanks for the advice, it was late and I just copy/pasted what I sent my GM at the last level. Next time I'll remember to prune, and may I just say that you're awesome for that Summoner guide of yours. It's the best guideline I could ever want, even if I don't play as wisely as I might. :smalltongue:

@Larpus: The whole situation was played as Griffons turning into raging, hellbent-on-slaughter-of-the-culprit berserkers if another Griffon is killed. The Powers That Roll obviously consider them bright enough to know whose fault it was. One could even argue that they might've known that a normal Summoner would lose his Eidolon if taken out, though with the Resilient Eidolon feat I wasn't personally in danger of such a thing.

To be entirely fair, by killing that one Griffon out of annoyance at being mauled half-to-death, I was directly disregarding the second warning from my GM to JUST RUN and causing the (online) session to run past where the other players were gone or just spectating. He would've been justified to pull out the 'Rocks Fall' clause.

[Larpus]

What a Str 7 vs a Str 18 looks like is a moot point if the STr 7 PC still was the source of the killing attack.
Looking menacing is as about as useful as a chocolate teapot in D&D.

If something is causing damage to a creature (be it highly intelligent or not so much) its more likely going to try and go for the source of its distress than the meaning looking but not harmful creature to the side - if that creature then starts to cause damage its likely that it could attract the attention.
I have to agree, it varies from DM to DM.

I did make the mistake of running my argument based on the assumption that the Eidolon delivered most of the pain while the Summoner shklerself only delivered the final blow.

Under that assumption, it's unlikely that the griffons would consider the Summoner to be the biggest threat. They would still swear vengeance against shklee, but I believe that revenge would also fall on the Eidolon, since it contributed as much (if not more) to the fall of the winged beast as the Summoner shklerself.

[grarrrg]

@grarrrg: Thanks for the advice, it was late and I just copy/pasted what I sent my GM at the last level. Next time I'll remember to prune, and may I just say that you're awesome for that Summoner guide of yours. It's the best guideline I could ever want, even if I don't play as wisely as I might. :smalltongue:


Thank you, but not my guide. I did chip in a little, but you really need to thank Saph.

If you'll note it's in my signature under "Things I like"