View Full Version : [Pathfinder] (Another) Fighter & Monk fix

2011-10-19, 08:34 PM
Heh, didn't realize there was a homebrew over here, so anyway, repost...

Probably won't get a whole lot of feedback if people are sick of these, but I thought I'd give my own shot at ramping these two often maligned classes up to 11. Though still probably won't hit tier 2, but should be enough added raw power (basically, more of what they have) to make them solid classes Naturally the classes to compare them against for playablity and survivability are Warblade and unarmed variant Swordsage, but I have not run through any number crunching in that regards.

So, the fighter Fix

Fighter Fix, Pathfinder

Take everything that the fighter can do, and give it More in a way that is useful. Then add a dash of Martial study and/or psionics in a way that DM denial of those sources just means using the bonus feats on 'normal' feats

I was going to keep this fix PF only, and no new mechanics, but adding those options via bonus feats seems the best way to add in reasonable options, but let the DM easily chop them out if wanted. Or player, if they do not want to deal with those mechanics.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Abilities
1st|+1|+2|+0|+0| Armor Training 1, Bonus Feat
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0| Bonus Feat, Bravery
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1| Weapon Training 1
4th|+4|+4|+1|+1| Armor Training 2, Bonus Feat
5th|+5|+4|+1|+1| Efficient Mastery
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2| Weapon Training 2, Bonus Feat
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2| Armor Training 3, Save Boost
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2| Bonus Feat, Armor Mastery 1
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3| Weapon Training 3
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3| Armor Training 4, Bonus Feat
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3| Mettle
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4| Weapon Training 4
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4| Save Boost, Armor Training 5
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4| Bonus Feat, Armor Mastery 2
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5| Weapon Training 5
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5| Armor Training 6, Bonus Feat
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5| Hardy
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6| Weapon Training 6, Bonus Feat
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6| Armor Training 7,
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6| Armor Mastery 3, Weapon Mastery

Bonus Feat: As per the core rulebook, plus a Fighter can take Martial Study and Martial Stance, Multiple times, with no limit on the number of times they can be taken. Fighters have an initiator level of +1, like a ToB class does.

Fighters can also take Hidden Talent as a bonus feat, but limited to Psychic Warrior powers, and can take it multiple times. Manifester Level is equal to the number of times the feat is taken.

Armor Training: As per the Core rule book, but it is gained at Level 1, and increases every three levels after (4, 7, 10, etc).

Bravery: As per the core rulebook

Weapon Training As per the core rulebook, but it is gained at Level 3, and increases every three levels there after (6, 9, 12, etc)

At Level 5, the Fighter gains this ability:
Efficient Mastery (ex): With each of the following Feat Chains, the fighter only needs to take the first feat, and automatically gains all following feats when he qualifies for them.
*Two-Weapon Fighter, Improved TWF, Greater TWF
*Vital strike, Improved Vital Strike, Greater Vital Strike
*Blind Fight, Improved Blind Fight, Greater Blindfight
*Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave
*Combat Expertise, Second Chance, Improved Second Chance
*Improved [Combat Maneuver], Greater [Combat Maneuver]
*Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
*Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Pin Point Targeting
*Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam, Shield Mastery
*Step Up, Following Step, Step up & Strike
*Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
*Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization
*Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, Superior Unarmed Strike
*Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge
*Shield Focus, Shield Specialization, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Shield Specialization

Save Boost: At Level 7, Fighters gain either Iron will & Improved Iron Will, or Lightning Reflexes & improved Lightning Reflexes as bonus feats. At Level 13, Fighters gain whichever feat pair they did not select at Level 7

Armor Mastery: At 8th Level, Fighters gain Damage Reduction 3/- when using Armor or a Shield. This increases to 6/- at 14th level, and 9/- at 20th Level

At Level 11, Fighters gain the class ability Mettle. A successful Fort or Will save vs a partial effect on save spell means that that the spell has no effect at all.

Hardy: At Level 17, Fighters gain Great Fortitude, and Improved Great Fortitude

And the Monk fix

Monk Fix

Concept: Start with the monk as is, remove nothing that isn’t redundant, enhance what it has to make it better and stronger. The monk still does what a monk does, only it does it to a useful level now.

{table=head] Level | BAB | Flurry | Ref | Will | Fort | AC | Unarmed Damage |Feet of Movement |Special

1 | +1| -1/-1 | +2 | +2 | +2 | +1| 1d6 | 0’ | Bonus feat, flurry of blows, stunning fist, unarmed strike, focused attacks, potent strikes
2 | +2 | 0/0 | +3 | +3 | +3 | +2 | 1d6 | 0’ | Bonus Feat, Evasion
3 | +3 | +1/+1 | +3 | +3 | +3 | +3 | 1d6 | 10’ | Fast Movement, Still Mind
4 | +4 | +2/+2 | +4 | +4 | +4 | +4 | 1d8 | 10’ | Ki Pool, Soft Landing 20’
5 | +5 | +3/+3 | +4 | +4 | +4 | +5 | 1d8 | 10’ | Skilled Acrobat, Purity of Body
6 | +6/+1 | +4/+4/-1/-1 | +5 | +5 | +5 | +6 | 1d8 | 20’ | Mettle, Bonus Feat, Soft Landing 30’
7 | +7/+2 | +5/+5/0/0 | +5 | +5 | +5 | +7 | 1d10 | 20’ | Wholeness of Body
8 | +8/+3 | +6/+6/+1/+1 | +6 | +6 | +6 | +8 | 1d10 | 20’ | Soft Landing 40’, Ki Charge
9 | +9/+4 | +7/+7/+2/+2 | +6 | +6 | +6 | +9 | 1d10 | 30’ | Improved Evasion
10 | +10/+5 | +8/+8/+3/+3 | +7 | +7 | +7 | +10 | 2d6 | 30’ | Bonus Feat, Soft Landing 50’, Ki Pool (lawful)
11 | +11/+6/+1 | +9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1 | +7 | +7 | +7 | +11 | 2d6 | 30’ | Diamond Body
12 | +12/+7/+2 | +10/+10/+5/+5/0/0 | +8 | +8 | +8 | +12 | 2d6 | 40’ | Abundant Step, Soft Landing 60’
13 | +13/+8/+3 | +11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1 | +8 | +8 | +8 | +13 | 2d8 | 40’ | Diamond Soul
14 | +14/+9/+4 | +12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2 | +9 | +9 | +9 | +14 | 2d8 | 40’ | Bonus Feat, Soft Landing 70’
15 | +15/+10/+5 | +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 | +9 | +9 | +9 | +15 | 2d8 | 50’ | Quivering Palm
16 | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1 | +10 | +10 | +10 | +16 | 3d6 | 50’ | Ki Pool (adamantine), Soft Landing 80’
17 | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5/0/0 | +10 | +10 | +10 | +17 | 3d6 | 50’ | Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon
18 | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1 | +11 | +11 | +11 | +18 | 3d6 | 60’ | Bonus Feat, Soft Landing 90’
19 | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2 | +11 | +11 | +11 | +19 | 3d8 | 60’ | Empty Body
20 | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 | +12 | +12 | +12 | +20 | 3d8 | 60’ | Perfect Self, Soft Landing any Distance

Skill Points Per Level: 6 + Int, class skills unchanged

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Unchanged, except to specifically add ‘Unarmed Strike’

Mental Focus: Select any one mental attribute at first level (Int, Wis, Cha). This becomes the mental attribute for all Monk class abilities, and for all unarmed related feats that are normally affected by wisdom (stunning fist, Scorpion Strike, etc)

AC Bonus: Monks receive an Armor Class bonus equal to their class level plus the modifier from their chosen mental ability score

Focused Attacks: Add monk’s chosen ability score as a modifier to all attack rolls, including flurry

Potent Strikes: Add monk’s class level to all damage rolls with unarmed strikes and/or monk weapons.

Flurry of Blows: As described in the Core Rulebook, but with one additional attack at BaB +16

Bonus Feat: As described in the Core Rulebook

Stunning Fist: As described in the Core Rulebook, except that Wisdom is replaced with the chosen Mental Focus ability score.

Evasion: As described in the Core Rulebook
Fast Movement: As described in the Core Rulebook

Still Mind: As described in the Core Rulebook

Ki Pool: As described in the Core Rulebook, except that the pool is equal to his class level + the bonus from his chosen ability score

Skilled Acrobat: As High Jump, but to all Acrobatics checks.

Soft Landing: which reduces falling damage (or damage from being thrown by any effect) by 1d6 for every 10’ the Slow Fall ability would grant, with no requirement for being near a wall.

At 6th level, gain Mettle class feature (Fort or Will partial effects have no effects on a successful save)

Wholeness of Body: As per the Core Rulebook, but make it 2x (monk level + Mental Focus modifier)

Ki Charge: for 1 Ki Point, make a charge action but instead of a single attack, you may make a full flurry

Diamond Body: As per the Core Rulebook

Abundant Step: Add: Unlike Dimension Door, you can act on your turn after using this ability. You can spend 3 Ki points instead to make this a swift action
At 14th level, the Monk gains Blindsense to a range equal to His chosen mental score modifier x5, plus 5’ for every 5 monk levels (So plus 10’ at 14th level, +15’ at 15th level)

Diamond Soul: As per the Core Rulebook, but add: “The monk can drop or resume his Spell Resistance as a Swift or Immediate Action”

Quivering Palm: As per the Core rulebook, but specified that it can activate and cause death immediately upon inflicting it as a non-action, and remove the restriction of only having 1 set up at a time.

Timeless Body: As per the Core Rulebook, but also increases maximum age by 50%

Tongue of the Sun and Moon: As Per the Core Rulebook, but also grants Telepathy to 100’, and awareness of other’s emotional states through passive telepathy grants a +8 to Sense Motive vs anyone who isn’t immune to mind-affecting effects.

Empty Body: As per the Core rulebook, Plus for 5 Ki points, the monk can instead shift to the Shadow Plane. Shifting back to the Material Plane requires another 5 Ki points.

Perfect Self: Change to Gains the Outsider (Native) Type and subtype, and Damage Reduction 10/Chaotic & Magic

Well, what do you think? Obviously much more powerful than the original versions, especially the monk, but on the other hand, I can not imagine either of these breaking the game. Though I am giving the monk the ability to play rocket tag at higher levels, sort of (swift action D-Door + flurry = pain)

2011-10-20, 11:02 PM
OK, I did a Full character class table for the monk Fix, and added even more stuff. Will do the Fighter too, probably sometime next week.

2011-10-22, 05:05 AM
And this gets bumped one more time because I think I have finished with all Fighter and Monk chart updating and adding of abilities. And gave in to the fact that current combat feats do not cut it for the fighter, so included a method to add ToB and psionic abilities, in a limited way.

2011-10-23, 02:24 PM
Cool, some great ideas here, though it feels like underwhelming overkill. I can't say why it seems so, and so maybe if we discuss your intentions a bit I can make sense of it.

I suppose my first question would be what exactly is wrong with the Fighter as a fighter? Seems that the way he is built, his survivability via AC and Health are superior to other martial classes, and his DPR defines 'good' when built around being a striker. I know that he has been classified as a T5 class, though not because he isn't capable in his roll as tank or striker, but because he can't effectively contribute in other meaningful ways, i.e. poor skills, no extraordinary spell-like abilities, etc. I'm not sure that you've done anything for him with this revamp, as it still looks like a T5 build. HOWEVER :) I do like some of your changes, such as Efficiency; I really like what you've done there.

As for the Monk, I see that you've tried to solve his fundamental issues, which are his unacceptably poor AC (he's an unarmored fighter ffs :P Paizo dropped the ball on giving him a better AC mechanic), and his poor Attack bonus while doing a Flurry of Blows. These changes help for sure, especially by improving his DPR. Good job here.

AC Bonus: Monks receive an Armor Class bonus equal to their class level plus the modifier from their chosen mental ability score

Focused Attacks: Add monk’s chosen ability score as a modifier to all attack rolls, including flurry

Though I'm concerned that you've given him too much flexibility with Mental Focus, which can/will lead to multi-class and gestalt abuse--though this might only be an issue at my table :)

Mettle is an awesome ability, and should probably be a general Feat, as its not too powerful, even as it is very useful.
Mettle class feature (Fort or Will partial effects have no effects on a successful save)

Even with the other changes, he's still a T5- class, and so this feels more like an Archetype than a fix. Either way, I'm happy to further discuss this with you if you'd like :)


2011-10-23, 10:40 PM
Well, let's discuss then :smallsmile:

as is, I've upgraded the fighter to be able to walk around in full plate armor with a Max dex modifer of +7, and no armor check penalty, though admittedly not that extreme until level 18 or so, and can use his chosen weapon extremely well. This seems like a good start to how a Fighter should move towards becoming a devastating killing machine. Admittedly, that's the barbarian's role too, but berserk rage vs incredible skill.

I've also given him a small arsenal of extra options. 1st set of extra options is the free feat chains. Grab the first feat int he chain, and you are automatically increasing in the basic line of improvements from that first feat. This allows the fighter to spend his feats on selecting specializations, but having the specializations improve for him from there.

At this point, the power upgrade is admittedly small, but might offer just enough for some people to want to use it. And I put the free feats chain down far enough to make a less likely dip just for that ability. A high level fighter should have a good wide variety of fighting styles he's good at.

Opening up Hidden Talent and far more Martial Study (rather than the 3 times limit) as fighter bonus feats is where the fighter can shine more. Psychic Warrior 1 powers could add versatility to a fighter, and lots of maneuvers/stances certainly do. I may not hit tier 3, but should be a good, solid tier 4.

In a way, this is my biggest problem with upgrading the fighter. It's hard to see how to do it with out just breaking down and adding new mechanics. The ones I did are at least optional (don't select those feats if you do not want that flavor) A serious revamp would probably end up looking like the warblade or something. Or psychic warrior with a +1 BaB

So, over all, I feel I've done the best I can to buff the fighter and still keep it the fighter. Which is probably a sad commentary on the original build of the fighter. Hidden Talent and Martial Study are probably the only things that bring even this build up to T4, maybe.



I'm glad you like it. Gestalt is such a side/house rule (though a very fun one), that I do not feel it should be taken into account for a class's build. Multiclassing cheese is most abusable by wizards and sorcerers, but that still costs a caster level. I'm not sure I want to try fixing the monk to both be fully upgraded and not dippable for cheese.

The more any class gives, the more dippable it is, depending on what you want. And I know most of my players don't think that way. The one who does wants fun characters more than superstar status. He'll only abuse what fits his idea of the character.