DM too strict?

[person29]

Alright so our D&D group is running tomb of horrors 3.5 and this happened in our session tonight...just looking for some responses on if someone was in the right/wrong and if there are stated rules for an issue such as this


The player playing the knight is standing next to a pit trap (he knows there is a pit trap located in the square next to him, the rogue found it). The knight states he wants to set off the trap, the DM informs him that he doesnt have any ranks in disable device so the trap will be set off. Knight says yes this is what he wants, he wants to hit the trap with his weapon (flail) in order to set it off.

DM says ok

trap is set off...knight and rogue (adjacent to knight and trap) must make reflex saves to avoid falling into trap


an hour long debate/argument ensues about whether knight/rogue should have fallen in or not etc etc


thanks!

[Greymane]

I'm AFB at the moment, so I can only offer an opinion, and nothing concrete.

It always seemed sensical that only the people inside the area of the pit trap would be affected. Unless the trap has some method of dragging in people around it (and the Tomb of Horror traps, as built, do not). Setting off traps on purpose as a form of circumvention seems normal enough to me.

Nearly this exact scenario cropped up when we did Tomb of Horrors. The rogue went ahead and would mark pit traps, and then we would say that we would want to set them off on purpose (because 'disabling' them locked them closed, per the DM). However, whenever we would say we'd set one off on purpose, the DM would count it as triggering it, and had people role for reflex saves if they were in the area of the trap. We called foul many times but the DM would not hear us, even though we thought it properly retarded that the rogue who found the trap, knew the dimension of the trap, could not set it off on purpose without falling victim to it.

We eventually just sovereign glued a rope to his back, while we held onto the other end, and that made the DM shut up about falling into pits.

[faceroll]

Isn't that what a ten foot pool is for? Stand 5 feet away, push floor.

[Drelua]

This sounds completely ridiculous to me, but if your DM insists on doing that, have the strongest guy in the party throw rocks where the rogue tells him to as hard as he can. Rocks can either be brought in found if the dungeon is in a state of disrepair or a cave. Then, if your DM calls for a reflex save to avoid the trap, throw rocks at him.:belkar:

[NNescio]

This sounds completely ridiculous to me, but if your DM insists on doing that, have the strongest guy in the party throw rocks where the rogue tells him to as hard as he can. Rocks can either be brought in found if the dungeon is in a state of disrepair or a cave. Then, if your DM calls for a reflex save to avoid the trap, throw rocks at him.:belkar:

If rocks cannot be found in meatspace, then caltrops d4s would work as well.

[Greymane]

Isn't that what a ten foot pool is for? Stand 5 feet away, push floor.

YMMV. My DM ruled that using 10-ft. poles was not strong enough to trigger the traps.

Great guy, but man did he have the worst Players vs. DM mentality I'd ever seen.

[faceroll]

YMMV. My DM ruled that using 10-ft. poles was not strong enough to trigger the traps.

Great guy, but man did he have the worst Players vs. DM mentality I'd ever seen.

I would get a ten foot pole, ask him to lie on the floor, then demonstrate just how strong a pole was. :smallfurious:

Pit traps are so freakin' mundane, too. It's not like you were using a bit of string and glue to break into CIA headquarters.

[ClothedInVelvet]

Buy pigs. For 3 gp apiece, I'd say they're heavy enough to set off pit traps. Let them run one at a time down the hall, and I'd say you trigger all the pit traps without suffering any casualties.

Plus, everyone gets bacon for dinner!

(Sheep are 2gp apiece, but mutton is not nearly as delicious as bacon.)

[Greymane]

I would get a ten foot pole, ask him to lie on the floor, then demonstrate just how strong a pole was. :smallfurious:

I would've been playing right into his game then. :smallsigh:

Before we found Soverign Glue, we managed to circumvent the problem with my bound demons as well, as I was playing a Wizard/Fiend Binder. The Succubus would waltz onto the trap with a ready action, let the pit open up beneathe her, give the men an upskirt, then flutter to the side.


Pit traps are so freakin' mundane, too. It's not like you were using a bit of string and glue to break into CIA headquarters.

I completely agree. We spent the rest of that session being livid. Which inspired the above demon thing. Kinda robbed the rogue of his job, though.

[some guy]

Hm, I could imagine pit traps not only having a trapdoor, but also some kind of way of letting the floor crumble away around, this is, after all, the Tomb of Horrors.

*Looks up the 3.5 version of Tomb of Horrors.*
I reckon this is the first hallway? Yeah, the DM was too strict on that. But still, this is the tomb of horrors, prepare yourself for a lot of gruesome traps. EDIT: a lot of gruesome traps that won't seem fair, that is.

[ClothedInVelvet]

Hm, I could imagine pit traps not only having a trapdoor, but also some kind of way of letting the floor crumble away around, this is, after all, the Tomb of Horrors.

Very true. I'm still waiting on a judgment for what happens if you stick your arm into a portal. When do you actually get transported to the next room (or simply be reduced to nothingness)?

But if the whole floor crumbles around it, then it's no longer a 10' pit trap. Suddenly, it's a 15' pit trap. And the rogue should probably be able to figure that out too.

[Chained Birds]

If a 10ft pole don't work, get a Ladder, they're multi-purpose use will be helpful even when not using it as a cheaper/heavier version of a 10ft pole.
Side-note: If ladder don't work, buy a barrel with a rope around it, and yo-yo it down a trap-filled hallway. Be sure to have a form of protection against AoE traps, but if you're doing ToH you'd probably be prepared before hand.

Also, your succubus wears a skirt? That's an awfully conservative succubus in my book. :smallamused:

[noparlpf]

Personally when I put traps in my games I often make them up and estimate the CR. I've used traps where one square is a pitfall and the square next to it becomes a sort of slide, so there are two squares they can step on to fall in.
If the traps in the adventure module don't say they do that though, then the DM is altering them to make them tougher and you should probably get more XP from them.

As for the succubus, it could be one of those silly tiny frilly miniskirts that doesn't actually do anything skirtish.

[DogbertLinc]

Isn't that what a ten foot pool is for? Stand 5 feet away, push floor.

Not guaranteed to work. I did this once, 10ft away from the hole and still fell into it. At the time, I was too confused to argue.

[Curmudgeon]

The 3.5 Tomb of Horrors is repurposed from original AD&D. Some things don't translate very well, such as the location-based traps (i.e., being in a room sets off the trap). Because it's got these edition translation problems, there are many places where the DM is forced to make some assumptions about how the various traps work. And since the module is 90+% traps, there are going to be a lot of these issues.

But generally speaking, if you're not using a reach weapon, a 10' pole, or something similar, triggering a trap that you don't understand the mechanism for is really asking to get caught in that trap's effect. Just because somebody told you there's a trap doesn't in any way tell you how to trigger it without endangering yourself. There's a skill specific to accomplishing things like that, and attempting a skilled operation when you're inept is a really bad idea.

[Tyndmyr]

YMMV. My DM ruled that using 10-ft. poles was not strong enough to trigger the traps.

Great guy, but man did he have the worst Players vs. DM mentality I'd ever seen.

Then, stop, look at him very seriously, and announce that you're breaking out the really, really high tech.

A ROCK and a pole. Push rocks onto the trap.

[panaikhan]

Also, your succubus wears a skirt? That's an awfully conservative succubus in my book. :smallamused:

How could she possibly tempt all those red-blooded males with upskirt peeks if she didn't? :smallconfused:
After all, waltzing around naked isn't temptation. Making them crane their necks for a glimpse is...

[person29]

So consensus seems to be (if im reading this right)

DM may have been too strict/dickish on the call but the knight was an idiot for attacking the trap to set it off while standing next to it rather than having it done from a distance or having the rogue disable the device?

[Grendus]

Summon Monster 1 is your friend. Grab a wand of it for 750gp, summon a Celestial Monkey or Fiendish Monstrous Centipede on top of the trap. You can do this from 25 feet away. A bag of tricks (any color) works as well, though you get fewer charges per day. The ultimate, of course, is the Summon Elemental reserve feat, just call up an earth elemental and wave goodbye. Have one wander down the hallway in front of you, you don't even need the rogue to find traps.

Though I do like the barrel with rope trick. I'll have to remember that.

[The Succubus]

How could she possibly tempt all those red-blooded males with upskirt peeks if she didn't? :smallconfused:
After all, waltzing around naked isn't temptation. Making them crane their necks for a glimpse is...

Remind me to refine my avatar at some point.

As for the trap debate, if I were a DM, if the knight was poking it with a short weapon (i.e. anything which wasn't a longspear or similar) I'd probably go with the trap affecting him. Prosecution cities precident in the case of Roadrunner vs Coyote.

[Tyndmyr]

So consensus seems to be (if im reading this right)

DM may have been too strict/dickish on the call but the knight was an idiot for attacking the trap to set it off while standing next to it rather than having it done from a distance or having the rogue disable the device?

More or less. Exact amount of strict/dickish depends on exact nature of the trap and situation. Many in ToH are not small traps, and you might be poking it while being, say, partially on it. I would personally ajudicate that by your spot roll...if you know the exact square the trigger is, great. If you're just stabbing ahead of you as you walk? Sad times for you.

[missmvicious]

YMMV. My DM ruled that using 10-ft. poles was not strong enough to trigger the traps.

Great guy, but man did he have the worst Players vs. DM mentality I'd ever seen.

10' pole wasn't strong enough? Does the DM not realize that a Quarterstaff is typically a 6' pole? Does he really think that a great big quarterstaff wouldn't be able to hit hard enough to set off a pressure plate? What was that pressure plate made of? I mean... sheesh. If that's the case just walk right over it, because it was clearly made to trap Large size creatures or heavier.

Even so, attacking a plate from 5' out or more shouldn't cause you to fall into the pit unless it was a tricky trap with a 5' plate over a 10' hole. At which point, he got you. I'd certainly would raise an eyebrow about such a trap, but I wouldn't make a huge deal about it unless he was doing that with every pit trap.

However, if the DM has an unhealthy mindset, then you may need to patiently (not passive aggressively) remind him of the chapter 1 guidelines for DM'ing... particularly pertaining to following the rules and earning the trust of the players:
1. pg 6: "Good DMs know not to change or overturn a published rule without a good, logical justification so that the players don't rebel..."
2. pg 13: "[DMs can gain the trust of their players] over time by consistent use of the rules... and by making it clear that you're not vindictive toward the players or the PCs."

... 2 references is enough, I think.

But the DMG preaches fairness and respect for the group throughout the game. From a holistic sense, the DMG believes (as I believe) that D&D is not the DM vs. the PC like so many other board games out there. D&D is unique because it is a shared story-telling experience. Sure the DM is the adjudicator, but the PCs don't have to play his/her campaign. Ultimately, if the DM wants to be an unfair jerk, he will quickly learn just how hard it is to play D&D by himself.

Ultimately, if (after you try to reason with him) he still insists on being pigheaded and changing the rules on the fly to try to vindictively stab you with cheesy Pit Trap damage, then simply take a break from the campaign and invite the group to play one where you are a DM. It's at your discretion if you want to invite the now dejected DM, but doing so could give him the opportunity to see what it's like to play for a fair-minded DM with a healthy mindset regarding good game-play with an emphasis on having fun.

[Curmudgeon]

So consensus seems to be (if im reading this right)

DM may have been too strict/dickish on the call but the knight was an idiot for attacking the trap to set it off while standing next to it rather than having it done from a distance or having the rogue disable the device?
Yep, I think you got it.

[Basket Burner]

While I am inclined to be sympathetic here, it's the Tomb of Horrors. Anyone playing that and not wanting a DM vs Player competition is in for a disappointment.

[legomaster00156]

While I am inclined to be sympathetic here, it's the Tomb of Horrors. Anyone playing that and not wanting a DM vs Player competition is in for a disappointment.

Gary Gygax INVENTED the Tomb of Horrors for PvDM.

[huttj509]

There CAN be different types of pit traps.

Thin branches with leaves over a hole in the forest? Yeah, easy to trip with a stick if you notice it.

Good stone floor, with attached counterweights so that not only does it close after someone fell in, but, say, requires something above 50 pounds to trip it in the first place? Not popping that open easily from a distance with a pole, not without risking losing your balance when it opens.

[faceroll]

Good stone floor, with attached counterweights so that not only does it close after someone fell in, but, say, requires something above 50 pounds to trip it in the first place? Not popping that open easily from a distance with a pole, not without risking losing your balance when it opens.

I've got maybe 11 strength in real life. Exerting 50lbs of pressure at the end of a long, rigid stick isn't hard. At all. It's entirely trivial if you have a second person to act as a fulcrum.

For a 250lb knight in full plate with the literal strength of a horse? Easy peasy.

[Yuki Akuma]

Gary Gygax INVENTED the Tomb of Horrors for PvDM.

Gary Gygax INVENTED the Tomb of Horrors for tournament play, not regular sessions.

[DogbertLinc]

There CAN be different types of pit traps.

Thin branches with leaves over a hole in the forest? Yeah, easy to trip with a stick if you notice it.

Good stone floor, with attached counterweights so that not only does it close after someone fell in, but, say, requires something above 50 pounds to trip it in the first place? Not popping that open easily from a distance with a pole, not without risking losing your balance when it opens.

Also, the part that annoys me, in particular, is you're not going to lose your balance 10ft forward into the hole.

[Diefje]

The knight is trying to solve a cleverly concealed, well contructed, hard to disable trap by smashing it with a flail and he's surprised something goes wrong?

I'll give you the rogue, unless he's holding on to the knight, there's no reason why he should suddenly fall in. But the knight, yeah I would make him fall in. Give it a high hardness so he can't just tap it and really needs to put his weight behind it. Of course you have to fluff it right like "the flail breaks the pressure plate, but goes through. The unexpected sudden lack of resistance makes the knight lose his balance, roll reflex". Even if he would make it, I'd still make him lose his weapon (if not properly chained). Though "non-standard" methods to solve problems are a lot of fun, they are not always good or smart, and the DM should punish bad ideas even if they are fun.

[Vladislav]

Fluff aside, a pit trap only affects those on the same square as the trap. Like them or not, those are the rules. And assuming the Knight is any size category above Tiny, he has at least 5' reach, and can attack the trap without being at the same square. Especially since the rogue already told him exactly where the trap is.

Unless the DM wants to houserule it, or just ignore the rules in favor of fluff (and in that case players should be given a fair warning), there's no reason the knight should fall in.

[faceroll]

The knight is trying to solve a cleverly concealed, well contructed, hard to disable trap by smashing it with a flail and he's surprised something goes wrong?

I'll give you the rogue, unless he's holding on to the knight, there's no reason why he should suddenly fall in. But the knight, yeah I would make him fall in. Give it a high hardness so he can't just tap it and really needs to put his weight behind it. Of course you have to fluff it right like "the flail breaks the pressure plate, but goes through. The unexpected sudden lack of resistance makes the knight lose his balance, roll reflex". Even if he would make it, I'd still make him lose his weapon (if not properly chained). Though "non-standard" methods to solve problems are a lot of fun, they are not always good or smart, and the DM should punish bad ideas even if they are fun.

That sounds vindictive and doesn't make any sense.

Oh no, your players found a way to circumvent holes in the ground! It's going to ruin the campaign! You better arbitrarily punish them because they're insulting your DM powers!

[Emmerask]

If I remember Tomb of Horror correctly, then there is no single 5 foot pit trap in the whole dungeon, they are all 10 by 10 feet (one square on the dungeon map equals 10by 10)

[Kaje]

The player playing the knight is standing next to a pit trap

Jesus... the player was next to a pit trap? Yeah, I'd say that's a waaay too strict DM.

[Basket Burner]

Gary Gygax INVENTED the Tomb of Horrors for PvDM.

Exactly my point.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Also, the part that annoys me, in particular, is you're not going to lose your balance 10ft forward into the hole.

As I understand it, the pit had a 10-foot radius, which would put you right at the edge.

[comicshorse]

Give it a high hardness so he can't just tap it and really needs to put his weight behind it. Of course you have to fluff it right like "the flail breaks the pressure plate, but goes through. The unexpected sudden lack of resistance makes the knight lose his balance, roll reflex".


Yeah I assume this was what the G.M. must have been thinking. Also I presume the Knight was in full armour which wouldn't help him in staying balanced.
I still think the G.M. is being too strict with this but I can see the logic behind it

[Diefje]

That sounds vindictive and doesn't make any sense.

Oh no, your players found a way to circumvent holes in the ground! It's going to ruin the campaign! You better arbitrarily punish them because they're insulting your DM powers!
It's not about DM powers at all. You can disable the trap with the skill, use long poles to push-trigger it, push large rocks on it, circumvent it by climbing along the wall, get someone to jump over and use rope to help the non-jumpy people across, fill the hole with whatever, wedge the trapdoor... There's many good ideas, but smacking it with a flail is a bad idea. Bad ideas might work, but not without risk (like, losing your balance and falling in). A DM should enforce that risk. Bad ideas turning out badly is hardly arbitrary. It would only be vindictive if he did not give him a save (and/or intelligence check, if you're into that)

[Vladislav]

But according to the rules there is no problem with this idea. For the DM to lump it in the "bad ideas" pile and punish the players for it is exactly what makes the whole thing arbitrary with a serving of vindictiveness on the side.

Basically, "you have to read my mind, it's only a good idea if I think it's a good idea".

[Tyger]

Prosecution cities precident in the case of Roadrunner vs Coyote.

I have nothing original that hasn't already been added, but I simply must add this to my sig!! Pretty please!

[noparlpf]

That sounds vindictive and doesn't make any sense.

Oh no, your players found a way to circumvent holes in the ground! It's going to ruin the campaign! You better arbitrarily punish them because they're insulting your DM powers!

Agreed. There's no reason somebody would fall or lose their weapon just from hitting through something. Every time I hit a goblin with my flail and it goes through the goblin's head, I have to save so I don't lose my balance and stumble into the goblin's square, or drop my weapon? The knight was probably expecting the flail's head to go through the ground. I assume that was the point of hitting the trap, to make the extent of the pit visible.

[Curmudgeon]

There's no reason somebody would fall or lose their weapon just from hitting through something. ... I assume that was the point of hitting the trap, to make the extent of the pit visible.
I really doubt the trap would merely be revealed by hitting it. After all, it's a trap, not just a hole. What could make the Knight (or anyone else getting close and flailing about cluelessly to set off the trap) fall in might be the opening mechanism grabbing and pulling on whatever triggered it, the edge of the trap tilting to dump adjacent creatures in, or air movement if the trap had lower pressure before opening. Just ½ a PSI difference (1/30th of an atmosphere) would give the Knight a shove with hundreds of pounds of force.

While it's the DM's job to make up some appropriate fluff to go along with the Reflex save, it's by no means unreasonable to penalize a PC for attempting to replace a trained-only skill use by blind bashing.

[averagejoe]

It's not about DM powers at all. You can disable the trap with the skill, use long poles to push-trigger it, push large rocks on it, circumvent it by climbing along the wall, get someone to jump over and use rope to help the non-jumpy people across, fill the hole with whatever, wedge the trapdoor... There's many good ideas, but smacking it with a flail is a bad idea. Bad ideas might work, but not without risk (like, losing your balance and falling in). A DM should enforce that risk. Bad ideas turning out badly is hardly arbitrary. It would only be vindictive if he did not give him a save (and/or intelligence check, if you're into that)

:smallconfused: I'm fairly sure most people can hit things without losing their balance, especially someone specifically trained in the use of and very familiar with the object he's using. There might be some sort of justification for making someone arbitrarily fall into the trap if he wasn't expecting one there (or if the trap was not a straightforward pit trap, as Curmudgeon mentioned.) It's even reasonable to have it not open the trap. However, even most not-particularly-athletic people are capable of swinging something around without falling over.

[Tvtyrant]

Real answer: Keep mine carts with you and roll them through traps.

[Basket Burner]

What I am getting out of this now is that a player tried to solve a problem in a way the DM did not like so the DM should arbitrarily deny it from working.

[missmvicious]

Level 1 Solution here:
Knight: "Anyone got some chalk? A vial of ink, maybe?"
Rogue: *fumbles in pouch* "Got some chalk here. Here ya' go."
Knight: "Thank you, comrade. Here, let me just kneel down for a second..."
Knight: *kneeling at least 5' away from trap, writing- T-R-A-P with an arrow pointing directly to the tile with the pressure plate on it.
Rogue: *blinks and wonders why he didn't think of that*
Knight: *hands the chalk back after standing up* "Ok. We good now? Can we just, you know, walk around that?"
Rogue: "I think I can handle that."
Rest of Party: "Can we go now?"

Done.

[noparlpf]

Level 1 Solution here:
Knight: "Anyone got some chalk? A vial of ink, maybe?"
Rogue: *fumbles in pouch* "Got some chalk here. Here ya' go."
Knight: "Thank you, comrade. Here, let me just kneel down for a second..."
Knight: *kneeling at least 5' away from trap, writing- T-R-A-P with an arrow pointing directly to the tile with the pressure plate on it.
Rogue: *blinks and wonders why he didn't think of that*
Knight: *hands the chalk back after standing up* "Ok. We good now? Can we just, you know, walk around that?"
Rogue: "I think I can handle that."
Rest of Party: "Can we go now?"

Done.

I suppose that might work too. But disabling traps...I have to! I even have Disable Device as a class skill! I need to disable it no matter what!

[Jarawara]

Level 1 Solution here:
Knight: "Anyone got some chalk? A vial of ink, maybe?"
Rogue: *fumbles in pouch* "Got some chalk here. Here ya' go."
Knight: "Thank you, comrade. Here, let me just kneel down for a second..."
Knight: *kneeling at least 5' away from trap, writing- T-R-A-P with an arrow pointing directly to the tile with the pressure plate on it.
Rogue: *blinks and wonders why he didn't think of that*
Knight: *hands the chalk back after standing up* "Ok. We good now? Can we just, you know, walk around that?"
Rogue: "I think I can handle that."
Rest of Party: "Can we go now?"

Done.

Nah, the weight of the chalk triggers the trap, and both the Rogue and the Knight have to roll reflex saves to avoid falling into the pit 5 feet away from them. The Knight rolls at a penalty because he's kneeling. :smallbiggrin:

[Curmudgeon]

What I am getting out of this now is that a player tried to solve a problem in a way the DM did not like so the DM should arbitrarily deny it from working.
We have completely different takes on this, then. What I got out of this is that a Knight, with no relevant class skills suitable to the job, tried something that was obviously foolish (purposely getting close to a trap and setting it off). The game has a specific skill for exactly that purpose, and the DM (with the particulars of that trap specified in the module) made a reasonable judgment call.

If it's the pit traps near the entrance in Tomb of Horrors, those are activated "when trod upon", so the Knight would have to really put a lot of weight on a weapon to get the trap to trigger ─ and hence the Reflex save to avoid falling in. If it's the camouflaged pit traps a bit further on, those have a "location" trigger. That's translated from the original, not a 3.5 mechanism. Basically, the trap triggers only if you get close enough. In either case, the DM's ruling is perfectly valid. Tomb of Horrors is a trapfest, and a non-skilled character blundering about should expect to get hurt.

[Basket Burner]

Given that traps are going to be solved in a manner other than the Rogue using Disable Device regardless, I see little difference in that alternate method being the Knight breaks the panel to expose the pit and Robilar acts as Orc herder.

To reiterate, the Disable Device skill does not perform its intended function. That means that methods of dealing with traps that do function are the smart tactic, and not the stupid tactic.

The DM is clearly imposing arbitrary punishments because he dared to wander out of his box. It's the Tomb of Horrors, so a DM vs Player mentality is a part of the paradigms at play but even so it is what it is.

[Curmudgeon]

Fluff aside, a pit trap only affects those on the same square as the trap.
A pit trap affects all the squares that it occupies. The Rogue identified a single square as a trigger. Those Tomb of Horror pit traps are all 10'x10' (4 squares). That's a problem that the Knight, with no suitable skills, was ill-equipped to handle.

Given that traps are going to be solved in a manner other than the Rogue using Disable Device regardless, I see little difference in that alternate method being the Knight breaks the panel to expose the pit and Robilar acts as Orc herder.

To reiterate, the Disable Device skill does not perform its intended function. I think you might want to look up "reiterate", because that's the first time you've brought up that point. How exactly is the skill unworkable? I DM'd a level 10 group through the 3.5 Tomb of Horrors, and the Rogue character had no trouble finding and disabling the bulk of the traps there. (The "location" traps were problematic purely because there wasn't any DC listed for them; they were set off by being somewhere, and that was it.) No improvised methods were used; the Fighter, Cleric, and Sorcerer PCs just twiddled their thumbs a lot while the Rogue did 90% of the work.

Disable Device works just fine, when used by someone with the trapfinding ability.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

The DM was not only too strict, but also very unjust. It's one thing when you play such game like Tomb of Horrors where it's expected that the DM doesn't hold back, but it's a completely another thing when the DM arbitrarily screws the PCs for creative thinking OR using rules correctly (it is allowed to disable traps with attacks when possible, and in this case it was).

[Demons_eye]

Disable Device works just fine, when used by someone with the trapfinding ability.

I don't see why disable device is needed, the knight wasn't disabling it he was activating it. This is how I see it played out it my head:

Rogue: It's here so be careful. Pit fall to a jagged death about 20 feet down. cross this point and you're in trouble, don't have the tools to jam it.

Knight *slowly edges over to the trap on his stomach and hits the ground. After the trap activates he stands* "Now that's out of the way..."

[Curmudgeon]

Knight *slowly edges over to the trap on his stomach and hits the ground. After the trap activates he stands* "Now that's out of the way..."
How is opening the trap door on a pit getting it "out of the way"? :smallconfused: The Rogue (with Disable Device) could jam the trap so it wouldn't open, and everyone could walk across. The Knight could, at best, leave it as an exposed pit that still needs to be traversed somehow.

[faceroll]

It's not about DM powers at all. You can disable the trap with the skill, use long poles to push-trigger it, push large rocks on it, circumvent it by climbing along the wall, get someone to jump over and use rope to help the non-jumpy people across, fill the hole with whatever, wedge the trapdoor... There's many good ideas, but smacking it with a flail is a bad idea. Bad ideas might work, but not without risk (like, losing your balance and falling in). A DM should enforce that risk. Bad ideas turning out badly is hardly arbitrary. It would only be vindictive if he did not give him a save (and/or intelligence check, if you're into that)

How does a trained knight run the risk of falling over when he attacks the ground with a weapon he's trained with since birth?

Do you also roll to see if the knight falls over when he attacks goblins?


While it's the DM's job to make up some appropriate fluff to go along with the Reflex save, it's by no means unreasonable to penalize a PC for attempting to replace a trained-only skill use by blind bashing.

You're making up rules because you've got a weird thing for rogues. For shame. :smalltongue:

[Vladislav]

A pit trap affects all the squares that it occupies. The Rogue identified a single square as a trigger. Those Tomb of Horror pit traps are all 10'x10' (4 squares). That's a problem that the Knight, with no suitable skills, was ill-equipped to handle.Look, you're just obfuscating the issue here. Either he's on (one of) the trap's square(s), or he's not. If it's the former, he should fall in, even before having the chance to attack the trap. If it's the latter, he should not fall in. Attacking the trap should have nothing to do with it.

The issue here is that the DM adjudicated he falls in because he attacked the trap. That is grade A "oh noes, my precious trap!" DM vindictiveness.

[Diefje]

How does a trained knight run the risk of falling over when he attacks the ground with a weapon he's trained with since birth?

Do you also roll to see if the knight falls over when he attacks goblins?

How does a trained trapmaker run the risk of some bozo knight disabling his creations by slapping on the floor with a piece of metal?

Do you also roll to see if the trap gets disabled when a light breeze passes through the hallway?

He may be trained with his weapon, but I highly doubt that he knows the inner workings of traps. Even if the rogue took the time to explain the trap that he can't even successfully disable even though he's a trained professional, I doubt he knight has had much experience bashing one (let alone this one) open. He has no idea what will happen, other than "I might cause it to trigger somehow". He didn't even take time to secure himself from accidentally falling into the pit trap that he knows is there. DM thinks he's reckless and stupid, and asked the player if he was sure (alarm bells should have been ringing here). He goes through with it, bad things happen (after a save), players cry.

In the end, there's no rules for this exact situation. Hell, we don't even KNOW the exact situation, because it is never exactly described. So it comes down to wether you think it's a good idea or not. Player thought nothing bad could happen, DM thought somehing bad would happen. It certainly doesn't warrant an hour long rules-lawyering interruption.

[Curmudgeon]

The issue here is that the DM adjudicated he falls in because he attacked the trap. That is grade A "oh noes, my precious trap!" DM vindictiveness.
In a standard 3.5 D&D module this would likely be an unusual occurrence. However, I've run Tomb of Horrors, and that sort of trap behavior is pretty standard.
Trap: If the roof (composed of badly fitting stones) is prodded with any force, or if the doors at the far end of the passageway are opened (onto a blank wall), the tunnel roof collapses. ... no attack roll required
Magic Arrow Trap (1 trap per room, 11 traps in all): CR 6; magical; proximity trigger (randomly targets 1 character in each room)
Counterweight Corridor Trap: CR 10; magic device; location trigger (when 1 or more characters step 30 feet down the corridor and overbalance the counterweighted beam on which corridor is constructed, causing victims to slide forward into lava pit)
Traps: The entire room is built upon a magical perturbation trap, which has 50% chance to trigger each round any character or characters remain in the chamber.
Flood of Blood Trap: CR 9; magic device; action trigger (if the valves take damage or absorb damage with hardness, or an Open Lock check fails by more than 5), the trap triggers These are all examples from Tomb of Horrors of traps that trigger from a PC either attacking a trap, or just being somewhere. A character with trapfinding using Search and Disable Device can avoid all of these; that's what the skill descriptions say. Other characters can't.

I don't know which particular trap the OP was referring to. It might have been a DM mixup, or a conscious attempt at combining elements from different traps (in case the players had perused the module, perhaps) to liven things up. Regardless, the Tomb of Horrors module does include traps that trigger when attacked, and it's any DM's option to make these sorts of changes.

You're making up rules because you've got a weird thing for rogues. For shame. :smalltongue:
You might want to set aside some time for reading, then, if you think I'm making up rules here. From Dungeon Master's Guide on page 5:
Using Purchased Adventures
Many published adventures are available for you to purchase if you don’t want to write one of your own, or if you just want a change of pace. In a published adventure, you’ll get a pregenerated scenario with all the maps, NPCs, monsters, and treasures you need, and an adventure plot designed to make the most of them. Sometimes, when you use a published adventure, you’ll see that it presents challenges you would have never thought of on your own.

Remember, however, that you’re the one who has to run the adventure: Anything you want to change, you can. That's straight out of the rulebook. Having traps trigger when attacked unskilled is an option for any DM using a published module, and it's certainly in keeping with the spirit of Tomb of Horrors.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

In the end, there's no rules for this exact situation.
Yes there are. I see you didn't even bother to look up Disable Devise skill:

Other Ways To Beat A Trap

It’s possible to ruin many traps without making a Disable Device check.

Ranged Attack Traps
Once a trap’s location is known, the obvious way to ruin it is to smash the mechanism—assuming the mechanism can be accessed. Failing that, it’s possible to plug up the holes from which the projectiles emerge. Doing this prevents the trap from firing unless its ammunition does enough damage to break through the plugs.

Melee Attack Traps
These devices can be thwarted by smashing the mechanism or blocking the weapons, as noted above. Alternatively, if a character studies the trap as it triggers, he might be able to time his dodges just right to avoid damage. A character who is doing nothing but studying a trap when it first goes off gains a +4 dodge bonus against its attacks if it is triggered again within the next minute.

Pits
Disabling a pit trap generally ruins only the trapdoor, making it an uncovered pit. Filling in the pit or building a makeshift bridge across it is an application of manual labor, not the Disable Device skill. Characters could neutralize any spikes at the bottom of a pit by attacking them—they break just as daggers do.
Funny how it says that you don't have to use Disable Devise and even specifically mentions pits. :smallsigh:

[Diefje]

Yes we do. I see you didn't even bother to look up Disable Devise skill:

I'm no expert but I don't believe smacking something with a flail is in fact building a bridge


Also note thatnone of those actually guarantee successfully disabling with without the skill use

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I'm no expert but I don't believe smacking something with a flail is in fact building a bridge
Maybe you should read first?

[noparlpf]

If it's the pit traps near the entrance in Tomb of Horrors, those are activated "when trod upon", so the Knight would have to really put a lot of weight on a weapon to get the trap to trigger

Too lazy to read anything else since this was posted because it's already late.

Anyway, a halfling stepping on this would set it off, yes? So are you telling me a Knight can't put out 30 lbs of force with his flail?

[Emmerask]

It also matters how the force is applied and how much energy is actually converted into movement of the trap and what is absorbed (through chipping the stone for example) etc

With a footstep on the trap I would think that most is converted into actual movement while with a blow with a weapon only a fraction.

[Shadowknight12]

It also matters how the force is applied and how much energy is actually converted into movement of the trap and what is absorbed (through chipping the stone for example) etc

With a footstep on the trap I would think that most is converted into actual movement while with a blow with a weapon only a fraction.

As a scientist, I'm here to inform you that momentum and collisions do not work the way you say they do. As per the laws of Science(TM), momentum is transmited in a collision regardless of the way the collision occurs. Whether it's a footstep or a flail, momentum is transmitted all the same. If another requirement is necessary besides momentum in order to open the trap, then that's another matter entirely.

This PSA was brought to you by Science(TM).

[Basket Burner]

I think you might want to look up "reiterate", because that's the first time you've brought up that point. How exactly is the skill unworkable? I DM'd a level 10 group through the 3.5 Tomb of Horrors, and the Rogue character had no trouble finding and disabling the bulk of the traps there. (The "location" traps were problematic purely because there wasn't any DC listed for them; they were set off by being somewhere, and that was it.) No improvised methods were used; the Fighter, Cleric, and Sorcerer PCs just twiddled their thumbs a lot while the Rogue did 90% of the work.

Disable Device works just fine, when used by someone with the trapfinding ability.

I've brought it up before but not in this thread. In this case the reiterate referred to the previous paragraph.

The skill is unworkable because the DCs of traps scale much faster than your skill modifier, the process is very slow, and there are so many other and better ways of doing it starting with the Robilar method.


You're making up rules because you've got a weird thing for rogues. For shame. :smalltongue:

Exactly this. Particularly since the Tomb of Horrors was made for earlier editions. Earlier editions in which the maximum chance to disable any trap that mattered was 47.5%. As in you were literally more likely to trigger it by trying to deal with it "properly" than to successfully deal with it. What's more, that's for the search and the disable... Actual maximum odds of finding and disarming the trap: 22.5625%.

And they haven't gotten any better at it.

[missmvicious]

LOL with noparlpf and Jarawara.

Love the passion, noparlpf. Go and do what your PC has been called to do. May Olidammara smile on your efforts.

Jarawara, your insight is amazing. I guess some traps aren't Pit Traps, Dart Traps, Falling Rock Traps, or the like. Some, I suppose, are DM Traps. I have never encountered a DM Trap I could disable, walk around, or intentionally set off without incurring damage. All I could do after noting my current HP is glare menacingly at the DM and make my best, "I know what you did... I know" face. Then try my best to figure out how to role-play and roll-play my way out of the trap.

[person29]

Actually the rogue has a pretty much guaranteed success to finding the traps if he actually searched for them.

He took a 20 on search checks and would be getting a 39 as a result.

Disabling device he has a +14...so still has a pretty good shot at being able to disable them when the attempt is made. If i remember correctly I think the DM had said afterwards the disable device check was around 20 for this trap, but I may be mistaken.

[Yuki Akuma]

Taking 20 on search means you're taking hours minutes to search every 5 foot square. You'll starve eventually.

Also, some traps do go off if you roll low enough on your Search roll to find them... Meaning you can't take 20 to find those traps.

[byrd-man]

roll with the DM's decision. remember how he ruled it, and find a way to get around it... that is how trapfinding works...

in a role playing game, smart people can play stupid, but stupid people can't always play smart... same should be said for rogues and wizards...

[huttj509]

I'll just leave (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=42) these here. (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=43)

What always comes to mind for me when thoroughly searching for traps.

[noparlpf]

I'll just leave (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=42) these here. (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=43)

What always comes to mind for me when thoroughly searching for traps.

"The next week, after some high level negotiations, the PCs have compromised some degree of safety in favor of "not being gigantic asses"."
I think if I had players like that I would trap the toilet.

[huttj509]

"The next week, after some high level negotiations, the PCs have compromised some degree of safety in favor of "not being gigantic asses"."
I think if I had players like that I would trap the toilet.

Well, in that comic they do have "the arrangement" regarding illusions...no illusions that aren't obviously illusions, to prevent "I disbelieve the bookcase, I disbelieve the table, I disbelieve..."

Then a few strips after what I linked there's a double-mercury-switch poison gas trap, nonmagical, can detect the body heat of one person, shuts off if heated too quickly to prevent getting tripped by a fireball, etc...

[noparlpf]

Well, in that comic they do have "the arrangement" regarding illusions...no illusions that aren't obviously illusions, to prevent "I disbelieve the bookcase, I disbelieve the table, I disbelieve..."

Then a few strips after what I linked there's a double-mercury-switch poison gas trap, nonmagical, can detect the body heat of one person, shuts off if heated too quickly to prevent getting tripped by a fireball, etc...

Speaking of which, what's the Will DC to disbelieve a real object?

That sounds pretty fancy. How exactly does it shut off by being heated too quickly, and does that then require a manual reset once things have cooled down?

[Gadora]

Speaking of which, what's the Will DC to disbelieve a real object?

You auto-succeed a save on a natural twenty.:smalltongue:

[noparlpf]

You auto-succeed a save on a natural twenty.:smalltongue:

Well, next one-shot I'm playing a nihilist or some such and I will roll to disbelieve everything I see. Hopefully I roll a natural 20 when I check a party member. We'd better hope I'm not the healer that game.

[NNescio]

Well, next one-shot I'm playing a nihilist or some such and I will roll to disbelieve everything I see. Hopefully I roll a natural 20 when I check a party member. We'd better hope I'm not the healer that game.

That would make perfect sense in a Planescape campaign.

BBEG: Muhahaha! My plans shall soon be fulfilled! You cannot stop me!
PC: I disbelieve you! You don't exist!
BBEG: ...What. I'm right here, gloating away, and you meddling twerps have been getting in my way for the past four months!
PC: No, you see...

<One philosophical debate later>

PC: ...And therefore you cannot exist. Q.E.D.
BBEG: You're... right. I don't exist.

<POOF>

[Mr.Tickles]

Having punishments for otherwise somewhat inventive ways of dealin gwith things is a pain in the butt.

My last 3.5 game before i switched to 4e was like this. Roll a 1? You always dealt yourself huge damage. (Thank god for no more critical fails). Tired of EVERY DOOR being locked, the door is made of flimsy wood? Stand 50 feet away and blow it up with eldritch blast. At least half the time there was some huge penalty for doing that, like randomly getting attacked, or whatever.

Of course eventually in the same dungeon all the doors were made of stone. So we had to wait for the "unlockbot" rogue to open the door. Each and every room.

[Gavinfoxx]

Having punishments for otherwise somewhat inventive ways of dealin gwith things is a pain in the butt.

My last 3.5 game before i switched to 4e was like this. Roll a 1? You always dealt yourself huge damage. (Thank god for no more critical fails). Tired of EVERY DOOR being locked, the door is made of flimsy wood? Stand 50 feet away and blow it up with eldritch blast. At least half the time there was some huge penalty for doing that, like randomly getting attacked, or whatever.

Of course eventually in the same dungeon all the doors were made of stone. So we had to wait for the "unlockbot" rogue to open the door. Each and every room.


That's... not normal 3.5e gameplay, you know...