Master of the Nine

[faceroll]

Are there any Mot9 builds that are particularly good? I like the idea of a flawless warrior, with swordsmanship beyond reproach. :smallcool:

[Darrin]

Are there any Mot9 builds that are particularly good? I like the idea of a flawless warrior, with swordsmanship beyond reproach. :smallcool:

Master of Nine is a Candy Shop trap. Yes, you get a metric buttload of ubercool maneuvers, but there's actually not much it can do that can't be done more effectively with a more focused Warblade 20 or Swordsage 20 build, particularly when you don't have to blow a good chunk of your feat slots on crappy prereq feats.

The really good ToB builds are all about effectively managing your resources. If you're good at paring down what you really want, you'll probably find a more efficient way to do it than going into Mo9.

That being said, I did use it for my Archon of Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137260) build to get all ninth level maneuvers pre-epic.

If you're looking for builds, start with the Tome of Battle Build Compendium. If you're looking to optimize a particular technique (Stormguard Warrior, Shadowpouncer, etc.), then let us know and hopefully we can narrow things down.

[Urpriest]

Isn't Mo9 an ingredient in some Idiot Crusader builds? That might be worth a look.

[Draz74]

Master of Nine can be pretty good. There are a few tricks to make it work, though:

Don't use it to enhance Swordsage, even though that's the "obvious" entry class. They're too similar; Swordsage doesn't get enough of a benefit out of Mo9.
Realize that the main feature that makes Mo9 worthwhile is not the access to all disciplines. It's not the class features. Those are nice perks, but the (only) reason the class is really worthwhile is the huge boost in number of Maneuvers Readied.
Get as many of the feat-tax requirements as possible via bonus feats.


Following these principles, my favorite Mo9 builds look something like

Unarmed Swordsage 1 / Fighter 1 / Warblade 13 / Master of Nine 5
or
Unarmed Swordsage 1 / Fighter 1 / Crusader 13 / Master of Nine 5

The Warblade build has the advantage of getting Blind-Fight and Improved Initiative as bonus feats, as well as better discipline access overall. But the Crusader version has the advantage of being better able to take advantage of the extra Readied Maneuvers in the long run, since he has the best recovery mechanic. Neither version is very hurt by the loss of a couple BAB during Master of Nine levels.

The Fighter dip is there because it relieves feat starvation a bit, without losing any additional Initiator Level from your "main" class (since you already dipped Swordsage). You can swap it out for a level of Pouncing Barbarian, too (although I consider Pouncing Barbarian a cheesy option, so I'll pass).

Make sure to select plenty of Counters in any case, since the Mo9's best class feature (besides Readied Maneuvers) is Counter Stance. Counter Stance is particularly fantastic when combined with Stance of Alacrity (best Level-8 stance in the book).

I like to spend a Martial Study feat for Baffling Defense (and Sense Motive as a permanent class skill) on either build at early levels. Probably not optimal, but it sure does add to the "flawless warrior" flavor! In any case it's one of my favorite maneuvers in the book. Oh, and at high levels you should definitely aim for Fool's Strike (Setting Sun 8 Counter). Normally not that great a maneuver because of Swordsage's mediocre BAB, but pretty awesome on a build that has mostly full BAB -- and again, great "flawless warrior" flavor.

[Morph Bark]

Master of Nine is best used with a Major Bloodline. :smallwink:

That way you can take a single level in about seven classes, then take a single Swordsage level for the maneuvers and you can go on to easily get all nine level 9 maneuvers.

[Douglas]

Before getting into builds, I'll mention my usual Tome of Battle house rule: martial adept PrCs should continue the base class maneuver swap progression. For example, a Swordsage 7/Master of Nine 1 should get to swap a maneuver at MoN 1 just like he would at Swordsage 8 if he'd continued in the base class instead. This is necessary to bring non-MoN PrC maneuver advancement to within shouting distance of the base classes, and to give MoN its clearly intended greater-than-swordsage maneuver advancement.

Now for builds.

For the "obvious" entry, Swordsage 7+/Master of Nine, it's all about maneuver selection. You've got full initiator level to match any single-class character in highest level maneuvers, and you have unmatched discipline access and quantity of maneuvers, both known and readied. Cherry pick as much of the best as you can from every discipline, and you'll be good to go. I've spent a fair bit of effort building a character like this, incidentally, and I could go dig up my level 1-20 maneuver plan for him if you want.

For another approach, the high number of readied maneuvers from MoN combine in a very powerful way with Crusader's recovery mechanic. The prerequisites for that route require either a dip in Warblade or Swordsage, putting your IL slightly behind, or a horrendous number of feats (add Martial Study x3 to the standard 5 prereqs), but the result is a double-digit number of readied maneuvers that refresh automatically for free every 3 or 4 rounds, depending on whether you have room for Extra Granted Maneuver.

For an easier-on-the-prereqs route without sacrificing IL, Warblade can get some of the prerequisites as bonus feats. This also gets you better BAB and a better recovery mechanic, but cherry picking from lots of disciplines is harder because you have fewer maneuvers known to satisfy higher level maneuvers prerequisites.

Multiclassing can help a lot with satisfying prerequisites, both feats and maneuvers, but be careful not to take it too far or you'll be losing the best part of a good Master of Nine build - lots of high level maneuvers. The more you multiclass the lower your Initiator Level will be, and that reduces the level of maneuvers you can learn.

If you really want to get cheesy, use multiclassing with a major bloodline to boost your IL above your level, but don't be surprised if your DM bans that.

[faceroll]

I have never been able to figure out how bloodlines work. Also, I'm the DM. This will be for an NPC.

[Douglas]

I have never been able to figure out how bloodlines work. Also, I'm the DM. This will be for an NPC.
What level (or level range, if he's going to be leveling up over time), and what role does he have in the campaign? How would you describe him from a fluff perspective?

[faceroll]

What level (or level range, if he's going to be leveling up over time), and what role does he have in the campaign? How would you describe him from a fluff perspective?

He'll be level 15-20.

Fluff:
Not entirely sure yet. We've got a swordsage & a warblade in our group. So far, they've just been using cool maneuvers without any fluff backing up their skillz. The warblade's just a badass normal, so for him it makes sense. The monk, though, she came from a monastery and uses a lot of desert wind stuff.

I'd like to use the guy as sort of an anchor to the ToB fluff. And fluffwise, I'm thinking 70s kung fu movie. Hermit lives on a mountain, gruff mentor, old beyond belief, has destroyed entire armies with just his sword. Pai Mai sort of stuff (but with armor and a shorter beard).

He's going to be the sensai (or sensai of their sensai) of numerous practitioners of the sublime way.

Whether he ends up as adversary or ally is entirely up to the PCs. He'll be true neutral, but some of his students (or students' students) will be tyrants, warlords, etc.

[Hiro Protagonest]

He'll be level 15-20.

Fluff:
Not entirely sure yet. We've got a swordsage & a warblade in our group. So far, they've just been using cool maneuvers without any fluff backing up their skillz. The warblade's just a badass normal, so for him it makes sense. The monk, though, she came from a monastery and uses a lot of desert wind stuff.

I'd like to use the guy as sort of an anchor to the ToB fluff. And fluffwise, I'm thinking 70s kung fu movie. Hermit lives on a mountain, gruff mentor, old beyond belief, has destroyed entire armies with just his sword. Pai Mai sort of stuff (but with armor and a shorter beard).

He's going to be the sensai (or sensai of their sensai) of numerous practitioners of the sublime way.

Whether he ends up as adversary or ally is entirely up to the PCs. He'll be true neutral, but some of his students (or students' students) will be tyrants, warlords, etc.

Personally, I hate the sublime way fluff. Desert Wind is similar to firebending, being about energy, and controlling that energy through breath control. Shadow Hand is some magical tricks the sneaky guy picked up. Everything else is badass normal. I can account for the use of Earthstrike Quake in a Kung Fu movie, I've watched it about 20 times.

But, level 15 Master of Nine.

Levels:
Warblade 8/unarmed swordsage 1/warblade +1/Master of Nine 5

Feats:
(1) Adaptive Style
(human, if applicable) anything
(3) anything
(warblade 5) Improved Initiative
(6) anything
(9) Desert Wind Dodge
(warblade 9) Blind-fight
(12) anything
(15) anything

Uses a falchion so Desert Wind Dodge can work. Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and Tiger Claw during warblade levels. Desert Wind and stuff from any two other swordsage disciplines for swordsage levels.

If higher than level 15, add more warblade levels.

And it's sensei, not sensai.

[Bakkan]

Isn't Mo9 an ingredient in some Idiot Crusader builds? That might be worth a look.

Indeed. In fact, Mo9 seems to be the most efficient way to make the Idiot Crusader work.

Details (in case anyone's interested). This is from memory, so some details might be a little off. The trick is to have as many Crusader maneuvers known as you have maneuvers granted Your number of granted maneuvers increases at any PrC level in which you gain a Crusader maneuver readied. When using Mo9, you have to get your DM to agree (if you're a player) that at a single Mo9 level you can add maneuvers known to another martial adept class, i.e. Swordsage or Warblade and add maneuvers readied to Crusader. There is nothing in the ToB Prestige class introduction that suggests you have to apply both to the same class, and in fact maneuvers known and maneuvers readied are handled in completely separate subsections.

A simple Idiot Crusader build (albeit without a lot of Crusader) is Warblade 5/Crusader 2/Master of Nine 2, with Extra Granted Maneuver. Now you have 5 Crusader maneuvers known. From your Crusader levels, you have 2 maneuvers granted, increased by 1 by Extra Granted Maneuver, and increased by 2 from Master of Nine, since you added the two maneuvers readied from Master of Nine to your Crusader progression (and the three maneuvers known to your Warblade progression). So for Crusader you have 5 maneuvers known, 7 maneuvers readied, and 5 maneuvers granted. You can't ready 7 maneuvers, so you just have the five. But since you get 5 maneuvers granted to you at the beginning of combat and in any round in which you have no withheld maneuvers, you get all five maneuvers granted to you every round. You have your choice of 5 maneuvers to use every single round.

Now the above build is a little weaker than I would like because while the Crusader gets 5 maneuvers readied without any actions spent every single round, those maneuvers are only 2nd-level (at most). However, If you take Mo9 for the rest of the progression, you can add 3 more maneuvers known and readied to your Crusader progression and have 8 maneuvers readied all the time. I built a kobold Idiot Crusader using this trick to be able to use Greater Insightful Strike every single round, so base weapon damage was meaningless. With the Mo9 maneuvers, you could pick up one or more of the Shadow Hand teleportation maneuvers and use them every round (this + Crinti Shadow Marauder is the base of the Nightcrawler build I'm working on).

[Optimator]

Adding Mo9 to a Crusader is one of the best ways to go. Use Cobra Strike Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) to save a feat or two and take some Swordsage for the extra schools known. You will have a ton of maneuvers granted and it will still reshuffle every 3 rounds.

Some say Mo9 is a trap, but considering how much better they are than Fighters, Barbarians, Swashbucklers, Samurai, Hexblades... you'll still be powerful and have fun.

[Douglas]

He'll be level 15-20.

Fluff:
Not entirely sure yet. We've got a swordsage & a warblade in our group. So far, they've just been using cool maneuvers without any fluff backing up their skillz. The warblade's just a badass normal, so for him it makes sense. The monk, though, she came from a monastery and uses a lot of desert wind stuff.

I'd like to use the guy as sort of an anchor to the ToB fluff. And fluffwise, I'm thinking 70s kung fu movie. Hermit lives on a mountain, gruff mentor, old beyond belief, has destroyed entire armies with just his sword. Pai Mai sort of stuff (but with armor and a shorter beard).

He's going to be the sensai (or sensai of their sensai) of numerous practitioners of the sublime way.

Whether he ends up as adversary or ally is entirely up to the PCs. He'll be true neutral, but some of his students (or students' students) will be tyrants, warlords, etc.
So... powerful, extremely versatile, ascetic hermit, probably not much armor, knows some of everything, focused above all else on maneuvers. Sounds like a Swordsage base fits the fluff best, so here's the maneuver plan I worked out for my version of that:
Level 1 (Swordsage 1):
Gain: Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Stone Bones, Shadow Blade Technique, Wolf Fang Strike, Burning Blade, Counter Charge
Gain stance: Flame's Blessing

Level 2 (Swordsage 2):
Gain Wind Stride DW 1
Gain stance Blood in the Water TC 1

Level 3 (Swordsage 3):
Gain Flashing Sun DW 2

Level 4 (Swordsage 4):
Gain Baffling Defense SS 2
Swap Sapphire Nightmare Blade for Shadow Jaunt SH 2

Level 5 (Swordsage 5):
Gain Mind Over Body DM 3
Gain stance Pearl of Black Doubt DM 3

Level 6 (Swordsage 6):
Gain Zephyr Dance DW 3
Swap Wind Stride for Insightful Strike DM 3

Level 7 (Swordsage 7):
Gain Searing Charge DW 4

Level 8 (Master of Nine 1):
Gain Foehammer DS 2, Divine Surge DS 4
Swap Shadow Blade Technique for Wall of Blades IH 2

Level 9 (Swordsage 8):
Gain Pouncing Charge TC 5
Gain Iron Heart Surge IH 3 via Martial Study

Level 10 (Swordsage 9):
Gain Leaping Flame DW 5
Gain stance Hearing the Air DM 5
Swap Wolf Fang Strike for Dancing Mongoose TC 5

Level 11 (Master of Nine 2):
Gain Lightning Recovery IH 4
Gain stance Aura of Perfect Order DS 6

Level 12 (Master of Nine 3):
Gain Iron Heart Focus IH 5, Leading the Attack WR 1
Swap Insightful Strike for White Raven Tactics WR 3

Level 13 (Swordsage 10):
Gain Quicksilver Motion DM 7

Level 14 (Swordsage 11):
Gain Scorpion Parry SS 6
Swap Stone Bones for Shadow Blink SH 7

Level 15 (Master of Nine 4):
Gain Order Forged From Chaos WR 6
Gain stance Stance of Alacrity DM 8
Gain White Raven Hammer WR 8 via Martial Study

Level 16 (Swordsage 12):
Gain Diamond Defense DM 8
Swap Burning Blade for Fool's Strike SS 8

Level 17 (Master of Nine 5):
Gain Strike of Righteous Vitality DS 9, Strike of Perfect Clarity IH 9

Level 18 (Swordsage 13):
Gain Inferno Blast DW 9
Swap Leading the Attack for Time Stands Still DM 9
Gain War Master's Charge WR 9 via Martial Study

Level 19 (Swordsage 14):
Gain stance Ghostly Defense SS 8
Gain Tornado Throw SS 9

Level 20 (Swordsage 15):
Gain Mountain Tombstone Strike SD 9
Swap Shadow Jaunt for Shadow Stride SH 5

This assumes my ToB PrC house rule as mentioned in my first post. It ends up with a lot of majorly useful stuff from every discipline, covering single target damage, mass damage, healing, a little bit of flight, teleportation, saves, defense, mobility, and various other utility. It's got something of everything, and even the low level maneuvers that don't get swapped out are ones that retain a lot of value at high levels.

You could go for one of the complicated multiclass schemes that get all 9 9th level maneuvers, but I don't see much point to those - all 9 9ths are strikes, and you're much better off with a mix of all types of maneuvers.

[faceroll]

Thanks Douglas, that's awesome! Will definitely be using that- exactly what I was looking for.

[Douglas]

I can definitely see this guy taking down both single big enemies and whole armies, btw. Not in a stand-up fight where 1000 archers can all hope for 20s at once, but combined with Swordsage skills.

Vs army:
1) Sneak to command tent using high stealth skills (they're on the Swordsage class list), Shadow Blink (or Stride) to bypass guards. If surprise round, Strike of Perfect Clarity on the commander. On first non-surprise round, Time Stands Still. Add Dancing Mongoose to taste, or White Raven Tactics on self. Follow up with Flashing Sun and/or Strike of Righteous Vitality depending on how well they fight back. Say "stop hitting yourself" if you feel so inclined when you reflect an attack with Fool's Strike (which is but 1 of your 2 counters/boosts for the round thanks to Stance of Alacrity).
2) Once the commanders are dead, wait for a suitably large group of soldiers to investigate the commotion. Hit them all with Inferno Blast. Sneak around assassinating anyone who looks like he might get effective organization going, and blast any large concentrations of troops you find - Inferno Blast has a 60' radius and 100 damage.

Vs single foe:
Whip out a bunch of boosts and strikes, plus counters when appropriate. Should be pretty obvious.

With a party Vs single foe:
Time Stands Still if in range, Pouncing Charge or Strike of Perfect Clarity if not. White Raven Tactics on self, move to your next turn. Quicksilver Motion to gain a move action. Spend the move action on Order Forged From Chaos, allowing both yourself and your party to back up in preparation for... your full round action, War Master's Charge.

Make sure Diamond Mind is one of your choices for Swordsage wisdom-to-damage, btw, getting that on every attack in two full attacks from Time Stands Still is great.

Oh, and a trick I used once to defeat a monster with Improved Grab - after the grab succeeds, use Leaping Flame to teleport out of it. You'll still be next to the monster, but you won't be grappled any more, and it only took an immediate action. Shadow Blink may also be useful for this.

[Telok]

It's important to note that you cannot get crusader manoeuvres to refresh faster than once every third round.


ToB p.96, Martial Adepts: Maneuvers Readied

If you choose to add the manoeuvre readied to a martial manoeuvre progression derived from crusader class levels, you also gain one additional manoeuvre granted at the beginning of the encounter for each additional manoeuvre you can ready.

So if your crusader readied/granted is 5(3) and you pick up a PrC that add to it the result is 6(4), not 5(4).

[Bakkan]

Yes, but what happens if you have 7 readied, 5 granted, but only 5 known?

[Vemynal]

This character wasn't the best mechanically (though he was still fine) but was based more on fluff:

Pixie 1Warblade/1Samurai/8Warblade/1Monk/5MasterofNine
(ECL 20)

The character had a cloak, I forget the items name, that could store up to 50 pounds inside of it. I gave the character each of the legendary weapons from ToB (minus one that the heroes had). The character was able to use the quick draw feat to switch between weapons instantaneously.

Sorry, I didn't write down the feats taken and by what levels. In retrospect I probably should have taken unarmed swordsage instead of the dip into monk. The samurai was there for a two purpose feat tax (one of which was quick draw if memory serves).


Anyways, I just enjoyed the idea of a Faerie swordsman who could change between his weapons and combat styles at will. This was sort of my campaign that introduced ToB to my players, with only 1 of them taking levels in Crusader around level 10 once they received the legendary weapon (forget which).

[AmberVael]

Gain stance Aura of Perfect Order DS 6

I've been tempted to post in this thread just to point out this one.

For a swordsage, I use Master of Nine to pick up Aura of Perfect Order and Iron Heart Surge just about every time. So worth it.

Aura of Perfect Order is just such a great stance, particularly since it is very useful out of combat. Thought taking 10 was good? Why not 11? And on anything? And for a character with a decent number of skills (like Swordsage), that can be very handy. And it's great IN combat too (making sure you pass a save, for example, or hit with that attack).

[Snowbluff]

Master of Nine can be pretty good. There are a few tricks to make it work, though:

Don't use it to enhance Swordsage, even though that's the "obvious" entry class. They're too similar; Swordsage doesn't get enough of a benefit out of Mo9.
Realize that the main feature that makes Mo9 worthwhile is not the access to all disciplines. It's not the class features. Those are nice perks, but the (only) reason the class is really worthwhile is the huge boost in number of Maneuvers Readied.
Get as many of the feat-tax requirements as possible via bonus feats.


Following these principles, my favorite Mo9 builds look something like

Unarmed Swordsage 1 / Fighter 1 / Warblade 13 / Master of Nine 5
or
Unarmed Swordsage 1 / Fighter 1 / Crusader 13 / Master of Nine 5

The Warblade build has the advantage of getting Blind-Fight and Improved Initiative as bonus feats, as well as better discipline access overall. But the Crusader version has the advantage of being better able to take advantage of the extra Readied Maneuvers in the long run, since he has the best recovery mechanic. Neither version is very hurt by the loss of a couple BAB during Master of Nine levels.

The Fighter dip is there because it relieves feat starvation a bit, without losing any additional Initiator Level from your "main" class (since you already dipped Swordsage). You can swap it out for a level of Pouncing Barbarian, too (although I consider Pouncing Barbarian a cheesy option, so I'll pass).

Make sure to select plenty of Counters in any case, since the Mo9's best class feature (besides Readied Maneuvers) is Counter Stance. Counter Stance is particularly fantastic when combined with Stance of Alacrity (best Level-8 stance in the book).

I like to spend a Martial Study feat for Baffling Defense (and Sense Motive as a permanent class skill) on either build at early levels. Probably not optimal, but it sure does add to the "flawless warrior" flavor! In any case it's one of my favorite maneuvers in the book. Oh, and at high levels you should definitely aim for Fool's Strike (Setting Sun 8 Counter). Normally not that great a maneuver because of Swordsage's mediocre BAB, but pretty awesome on a build that has mostly full BAB -- and again, great "flawless warrior" flavor.

I actually ran something like this once. Works wonders, great for flavor. The capstone is really good damage for pretty much any spec. If I remember correctly, RAW, any Mo9 can have all nine schools known without dipping. I'll have to check this again later though. I don't think you can have them prepared without the right class known.

[Douglas]

I've been tempted to post in this thread just to point out this one.

For a swordsage, I use Master of Nine to pick up Aura of Perfect Order and Iron Heart Surge just about every time. So worth it.

Aura of Perfect Order is just such a great stance, particularly since it is very useful out of combat. Thought taking 10 was good? Why not 11? And on anything? And for a character with a decent number of skills (like Swordsage), that can be very handy. And it's great IN combat too (making sure you pass a save, for example, or hit with that attack).
Yeah, Aura of Perfect Order is spectacular. Take all the chance out of a save, attack, or skill once per round, and it doesn't even take an action.

Hit by a save-or-die with a 40% chance of instant death? No problem, I declare I rolled an 11.
Want to be certain that crit threat confirms? 11.
Need to stabilize someone in combat with an untrained Heal check? 11 plus high wisdom succeeds.
Have Power Attack, know your target's AC, and want to maximize damage? Power Attack exactly enough to hit on an 11.
And so on.

So. many. uses.

[Eldariel]

Counter Stance and Dual Stance combined is incredible. You get Stance of Alacrity and Immortal Fortitude, for example, for the duration of a fight. With Counter Stance you can even re-initiate Immortal Fortitude if you ever risk dying. It also allows swapping around small stuff like Stance of Clarity (+2 AC, combined with e.g. Zephyr Dance it can allow dodging close calls), Hearing the Air or in general small boosts to stuff you happen to need right now. And the utility of being able to use Aura of Perfect Order then switching away for free for another stance for the rest of your non-turn is pretty awesome.

The combination of Dual Stance and Counter Stance really empowers Stance of Alacrity too since it suddenly reads "Free counter and stance switch/initiation per turn". And the combination of schools is incredibly powerful; Devoted Spirit and Diamond Mind never appear in the same chassis but this gives you easy access to both. You also get selective access to Shadow Hand if you so desire (I happen to really like One With Shadow; one of the best counters in the book), Setting Sun's untouchability and White Raven/Iron Heart as desired (though you prolly had good White Raven before entering already).


Overall, Mo9 makes stance/maneuver combinations happen better than any other class since it has multiple unique combinations available. I find it's all about how much work you put into it but while it's horribly expensive to enter, especially Crusader entering it stands to gain immense amounts of good stuff. And Warblades are pretty happy too, getting both, good stuff and access to what they usually miss in maneuvers readied.

Oh, and Mastery of the Nine? Practically free +9 to damage on all maneuvers. Combine with Time Stands Still/Avalanche of Blades/Pouncing Charge/etc. Profit. It may not look like much but it can easily deal 100+ damage a turn still.

[Little Brother]

Oh, and Mastery of the Nine? Practically free +9 to damage on all maneuvers. Combine with Time Stands Still/Avalanche of Blades/Pouncing Charge/etc. Profit. It may not look like much but it can easily deal 100+ damage a turn still.But I can do that by level 6 without a single level in any martial adept or caster. Not special at all.

[Eldariel]

But I can do that by level 6 without a single level in any martial adept or caster. Not special at all.

No, but it stacks with everything. Adding 100 damage to everything is always 100 damage more. Since it costs you nothing, I think it's something one should appreciate for free value.

[Little Brother]

No, but it stacks with everything. Adding 100 damage to everything is always 100 damage more. Since it costs you nothing, I think it's something one should appreciate for free value.But my ability to do 200+ at level 6 also costs me nothing. As I am saying, it's nice, I guess, but not phenomenal.

[Morph Bark]

You're both not thinking about it right, if it costs you little, you should take both.

It's always the right answer when you're standing in a supermarket at a rack with two cheap things that you really want to have. :smalltongue:

[Telok]

Yes, but what happens if you have 7 readied, 5 granted, but only 5 known?

Then it's the DM's call. It wasn't intended to happen within the rules so there are no rules for it. Things outside the rules are at the DM's discretion.

It's also a fairly obvious attempt to circumvent the crusader refresh mechanism.

Hmmm. You need two levels of Mo9 to get there from Crusader 1 or 2, presume a 20 level build for this effect and you can have 16 or 17 levels before taking Crusader. So an initiator level of 9 will allow you to take 5th level manoeuvres that are always readied. White Raven Tactics and Divine Surge are always available, beyond that it didn't look impressive.

Edit: I looked up the Idiot Crusader build. It's interesting but requires DM approval of a favourable interpretation on the grey area. It is also possible to read the relevant section of the Mo9 class so that manoeuvres known and readied must be taken on the same class. Eg: You take Mo9 level 1, you apply the whole known/readied line to a single initiator class, not splitting the known onto one class and the readied onto another. It's an alternate way to interpret the omission in the rules.

[Incanur]

Unarmed Swordsage 1 / Fighter 1 / Warblade 13 / Master of Nine 5

Note that you can a level battle dancer (or even a second level of fighter, but that's sketchy) to get Improved Unarmed Strike without losing any BAB. This does then require a Martial Study feat, though.

[Eldariel]

But my ability to do 200+ at level 6 also costs me nothing. As I am saying, it's nice, I guess, but not phenomenal.

Your ability to do 200+ damage on level 6 invariably requires at least feat investment . As such, not really for free. Plus, again, it stacks. You can just as easily have your base 400 and tack 100 on it; it's 500 now.

[Chronos]

Another place where Mo9 really shines is in gestalt: You can take swordsage/Mo9 on one side, and fighter (maybe with a sprinkling of other warrior-type classes) on the other. This gives you full BAB and a bit better HP, and also helps you get the large number of feat prereqs for Mo9.

[Draz74]

Note that you can a level battle dancer (or even a second level of fighter, but that's sketchy) to get Improved Unarmed Strike without losing any BAB. This does then require a Martial Study feat, though.

Sure, but besides prerequisites, a level in Swordsage also gets you:

five more maneuvers, usable 1/encounter; great for Diamond Mind/Tiger Claw/Stone Dragon prereqs, or for maneuvers that you want but have trouble fitting into your Warblade Readied selection (like Moment of Perfect Mind)
another stance
a crapton of skill points, if you take it at Level 1 (and they can be invested as in-class in any Discipline Skill except Diplomacy)
a +1 bonus to initiative
Weapon Focus with your favored weapon and a few others
a significant boost to your Reflex and Will saves

... which I think is well worth the loss of one BAB, especially since the Weapon Focus feature gets you the same attack bonus overall. You'll just be an iterative attack behind at a few levels.