spellwarp sniper & enlightened fist

[kulosle]

spellwarp sniper turns spells into rays and enlightened fist lets you punch with rays, so can he punch out spells he warps? i told the player yes, i don't see this being that big of a deal. i don't think it will make up for having to take levels monk (or waste two feats) or rogue (or waste another feat) and having to take combat casting (awful feat) plus the two spell levels lost in enlightened fist. does anyone see anything i'm missing?

[hex0]

I'd say no since Hold Ray turns them into Touch spells so they are not longer rays.

[Kaje]

Yeah, it absolutely works. Hell, I made a gestalt build that combines it with a duskblade for even more awesomeness, and if a DM has a problem with enlightened fist in gestalt, ask for a nerf so that it doesn't progress monk abilities.

Dwarf Rogue 1 / Monk 1 / Duskblade 13 / Warblade 3 / Bloodstorm Blade 2 // Wizard 5 / Runesmith 1 / Enlightened Fist 7 / Spellwarp Sniper 5 / Wizard 2.

[jindra34]

I'd say no since Hold Ray turns them into Touch spells so they are not longer rays.

Huh? first spellwarp sniper turns an area spell into a ray and enlightened fist then turns them into touch. How does the using ray to touch ability not work?

[kulosle]

but is this going to be a problem? i personally see it as a good way of making sure his wizard isn't going to break my game.

[Kaje]

No, I don't think it'll break the game to stick the squishy wizard in melee.

[Fax Celestis]

It's actually a really cool thing to do on a duskblade. Turn AoE into ray, ray into touch, touch into channel. Beat people to bits with a fireball sword.

[Kaje]

The great part is the fireball sword has no save.

[kulosle]

actually i don't know what class he's doing with it, he just asked if the trick was okay. hmmm. specifically could this trick be optimized in any way that would make him teir 1?

[jindra34]

actually i don't know what class he's doing with it, he just asked if the trick was okay. hmmm. specifically could this trick be optimized in any way that would make him teir 1?

Any situation where he could optimize it to grant effective T1 capabilities is one in which he probably would be stronger not jumping through hoops, adding 2 classes that don't offer much to a caster, and then sticking 2 prcs on it. The net effect is likely a drop in power to anyone who is not going DB/Master Spellthief/Monk (or if it qualifies unarmed swordsage). Which still probably isn't going to be pegging the scale past T3.

[Qwertystop]

That's pretty cool. Makes any non-personal spell able to be cast through a club, no save.

Hit people with a Greatsword that casts Invisibility.

Make your Spiked Chain cast Extract Water Elemental.

Morningstar them with Plane Shift.

Can the Weapon Chanelling be used with a Ranged Weapon, so you can add arrow effects? Or would that be pointless, since you could hit more easily if you kept it as a ray?

[jindra34]

That's pretty cool. Makes any non-personal spell able to be cast through a club, no save.

Hit people with a Greatsword that casts Invisibility.

Make your Spiked Chain cast Extract Water Elemental.

Morningstar them with Plane Shift.

Can the Weapon Chanelling be used with a Ranged Weapon, so you can add arrow effects? Or would that be pointless, since you could hit more easily if you kept it as a ray?

Spellwarping only affects AoE's and only removes SR and Reflex saves. And Duskblade Chanelling is explicitly melee only.

[Qwertystop]

Spellwarping only affects AoE's and only removes SR and Reflex saves. And Duskblade Chanelling is explicitly melee only.

Ah. Only removes SR and reflex...

Some of my post, of course, wouldn't need the whole chain.

Sorry, I was basing it entirely on what was mentioned in-thread. What are the mechanics of the various changing-range-of-spell abilities?

[Claudius Maximus]

Spellwarping removes SR? :smallconfused:

I can't check now but that doesn't sound right. Can someone verify?

[Allanimal]

Spellwarping removes SR? :smallconfused:

I can't check now but that doesn't sound right. Can someone verify?

I just read it, there is nothing about SR in it. So no, you still have to deal with SR when spellwarping, as well as Fort and Will saves. It only removes reflex saves, not SR.

[suhkkaet]

Spellwarping removes SR? :smallconfused:

I can't check now but that doesn't sound right. Can someone verify?

Eh, no.
It warps an area spell (with instantaneous duration and a range greater than touch) into a ray, and is considered a ray for the purpose of effects that modify or depend on rays.
There's no mention of SR in the spellwarp entry, nor in any of the other Spellwarp Sniper abilities.

It may be a sideeffect from one of the other things.

Edit: Ninja'd.

[Kaje]

Spellwarping only affects AoE's and only removes SR and Reflex saves. And Duskblade Chanelling is explicitly melee only.

That's what Bloodstorm Blades are for.

[Tvtyrant]

That's what Bloodstorm Blades are for.

And suddenly this became amazing.

[Qwertystop]

Does anyone have a build to incorporate as much of this as possible? Also, can anyone post the mechanics of these spell-delivery-method-conversions?

[Kaje]

Well, the gestalt build I posted earlier incorporates duskblade, spellwarp sniper, enlightened fist and bloodstorm blade. It would be even more effective if you toss out the restriction against two prcs at the same time, and do warblade 1/bloodstorm blade 4 at the end instead of warblade 3/bloodstorm blade 2. Otherwise you probably need quick-draw feat and a belt full of daggers to full attack, and then most of the daggers would just fall at your feet next turn.

Pre-epic, there's no way to do all of that outside gestalt, though you can combine duskblade and enlightened fist if you blow the two feats to qualify (you don't have enough levels to do the monk dip). Alternately, you can combine duskblade, enlightened fist, and spellwarp sniper, but you won't be able to channel with a full attack, and without that option you may as well skip the duskblade all together and just use enlightened fist's similar feature.

Anyway, the full mechanics: Expend an Iron Heart strike (swift action) to treat all your thrown attacks as melee attacks. Use spellwarp (free action) to change your area spell into a ray spell, then use hold ray (free action) to change it into a touch spell, then use arcane channeling to channel the spell through your attacks with a thrown melee weapon (standard or full-round action).

[kulosle]

that does sound kinda frightening. the only down side is how feat heavy it is, and all of the classes are feat starved. so you could blow all your feats to meet the requirements for spell warp sniper and bloodstorm blade. then you only need to take dusk blade 5/monk 1/spellwarp sniper 5/enlightened fist 7/blood storm blade 2
he would have to take sneak attack feat and martial study and martial stance but this looks like a good build. he's still not teir 1 so i think i'm safe.

[Kaje]

I'm AFB, but you lose so many caster levels that the character probably only has 4th level spells. If so, you can lose a level of spellwarp sniper and replace it with warblade. Another lost level, but it saves you two feats, improves your BAB and gives you a recharge mechanic.

EDIT: There's a feat that gives sneak attack?

[Allanimal]

dusk blade 5/monk 1/spellwarp sniper 5/enlightened fist 7/blood storm blade 2


The problem I see is that the duskblade does not get very many spells that are capable of being spellwarped (range greater than touch, instantaneous duration). The duskblade spell list is very limited, which may make the whole poin moot.

[kulosle]

in the complete arcana there are a list of feats that are actually just class features. some DM allow them some don't. i do believe that their main purpose is to qualify for classes that you other wise would have to take a level dip in.

and thats why the spell warped sniper and the enlightened fist. all of his area, ray, or touch attack spells could be charged through his blade.

still like i said he'll probably not going use duskblade. it's just not worth it. dusk blades don't really rock till 13th level anyways and if he does that then he definitely won't have enough levels left to pull this off.

[Cerlis]

As Tiers deal with the range of what you can do, i take it you are actually worried about just how much damage he will do.

and unless im missing something it seems he is still only getting one spell a turn (baseline) with the only benefit is him doing taht while attacking (or throwing)

[Kaje]

Seems to me a kung fu genius monk / wizard / warblade / enlightened fist / spellwarp sniper / bloodstorm blade could be a decent gish. INT to AC and I think 7th level spells, yes? Throw your unarmed strikes, and one of them per full attack can hold a spell. And since you obviously don't need your unarmed strikes to return to you between attacks, you can get away with just 2 levels of BSB.

[hex0]

Duskblade gets a few spells that are worth hold raying. Polar Ray, for example.

This is hard to make viable without gestalt....

[Kaje]

Yeah, I'm experimenting and the best I'm coming up with is 13 BAB and 7th level spells.

2 questions:
Do warforged monks get wis to AC without unarmored body?

Is there a feat or acf that changes the monk's wis bonus to cha?