My First Ever d&d post! attempt at warrior vs wizard pvp

[NimbleNZ]

Hi,
our very experienced DM left for an OE, im DM now, and im very newb. So i write min/max warrior vs mage builds in order to learn the game (as well as for fun).
im posting an abbreviated version of the build so its not a giant wall of text. no one likes that.
please tell me what you think

ECL 20 Raptoran: Hexblade 3, Swashbuckler 3, Paladin 2, Fighter 1, Duellist 1, Invisible blade 5, Occult slayer 5

stats:
HP: 198 (using average of HD)
Touch AC: 42 (or 43 hasted)
Initiative: 15
Speed: 80ft+30ft with haste. Good fly manoeuvrability
BAB: +20/+15/+10/+5
which makes:35/30/25/20 or 36/36/31/26/21 while hasted. Off hand: 33 or 34 (hasted)
Weapons:
+5 Keen flaming ghost touch kukri @ 1d4 + 14 and
+5 Keen shocking seeking kukri @ 1d4 + 14
saves:
Fortitude: 30 (41 against spells)
Reflex: 32/33 (hasted) (43 against spells/44 hasted)
Will: 23 (34 against spells)

Abilities:
Evasion (from item), Mettle, Arcane resistance, Weapon finesse, Grace +1, Insightful strike, Divine grace, Canny defence, unfettered defence, uncanny feint (free action), sneak attack 3d6, Magical defence, Weapon bond, Vicious strike, Mind over magic 2/day, Auravision, Blank thoughts (mind-affecting spell immunity),
30 fire resistance from ring

good:
-it should pass its saves, so mettle and evasion will reduce many spells' damage to 0.
-for spells without saves theres a ridiculously high touch AC (pesky ray of enfeeblement).
-flies fast (and good manouveurability)
-fair amount of HP
-should win initiative
-can see invisible and etheral
-does enough damage for low HP wizards
-30 fire resistance (pesky scorching ray)
-immunity to mind affecting
-some other stuff that i cant be bothered listing

bad:
-it cant teleport, im still working on that
-anything else i didnt plan for...

ummm....what do people think?

ps: i have nothing against wizards in d&d, i just like the challenge of trying to overcome their awesome versatility :smallbiggrin:

NimbleNZ

[Flickerdart]

Mundanes never win initiative because of Foresight, Celerity and Dragon Turtles. Your speed isn't fast enough to match a Phantom Steed, Cauchemar under any speed boost, dominated/Gated dragon or anything else a 20th level caster can muster. You cannot attack at range and your damage is so miserable that the most trivial DR overcomes it. You cannot pierce illusions, you are not immune to [death].

[Gavinfoxx]

In other words, D&D is an inherently unbalanced game which HEAVILY favors casters, and you would likely need several months of experience in high end and theoretical min/maxxing to get where you need to be.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872034/A_Core-only_Wiz_20_vs_Splatbook_Ftr_20...?pg=1
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872034/A_Core-only_Wiz_20_vs_Splatbook_Ftr_20...?post_id=3384252 14#338425214

[NimbleNZ]

Mundanes never win initiative because of Foresight, Celerity and Dragon Turtles. Your speed isn't fast enough to match a Phantom Steed, Cauchemar under any speed boost, dominated/Gated dragon or anything else a 20th level caster can muster. You cannot attack at range and your damage is so miserable that the most trivial DR overcomes it. You cannot pierce illusions, you are not immune to [death].

hmmm ok, thanks

can you tell me:
-how fast should i be aiming for?
-how can i get immunity to death magic?

[Gavinfoxx]

See the posts I linked to... also...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851

[SamBurke]

Hi,
our very experienced DM left for an OE, im DM now, and im very newb. So i write min/max warrior vs mage builds in order to learn the game (as well as for fun).
im posting an abbreviated version of the build so its not a giant wall of text. no one likes that.
please tell me what you think

ECL 20 Raptoran: Hexblade 3, Swashbuckler 3, Paladin 2, Fighter 1, Duellist 1, Invisible blade 5, Occult slayer 5

stats:
HP: 198 (using average of HD)
Touch AC: 42 (or 43 hasted)
Initiative: 15
Speed: 80ft+30ft with haste. Good fly manoeuvrability
BAB: +20/+15/+10/+5
which makes:35/30/25/20 or 36/36/31/26/21 while hasted. Off hand: 33 or 34 (hasted)
Weapons:
+5 Keen flaming ghost touch kukri @ 1d4 + 14 and
+5 Keen shocking seeking kukri @ 1d4 + 14
saves:
Fortitude: 30 (41 against spells)
Reflex: 32/33 (hasted) (43 against spells/44 hasted)
Will: 23 (34 against spells)

Abilities:
Evasion (from item), Mettle, Arcane resistance, Weapon finesse, Grace +1, Insightful strike, Divine grace, Canny defence, unfettered defence, uncanny feint (free action), sneak attack 3d6, Magical defence, Weapon bond, Vicious strike, Mind over magic 2/day, Auravision, Blank thoughts (mind-affecting spell immunity),
30 fire resistance from ring

good:
-it should pass its saves, so mettle and evasion will reduce many spells' damage to 0.
-for spells without saves theres a ridiculously high touch AC (pesky ray of enfeeblement).
-flies fast (and good manouveurability)
-fair amount of HP
-should win initiative
-can see invisible and etheral
-does enough damage for low HP wizards
-30 fire resistance (pesky scorching ray)
-immunity to mind affecting
-some other stuff that i cant be bothered listing

bad:
-it cant teleport, im still working on that
-anything else i didnt plan for...

ummm....what do people think?

ps: i have nothing against wizards in d&d, i just like the challenge of trying to overcome their awesome versatility :smallbiggrin:

NimbleNZ

This is really good, and for a new player, pretty amazing. IE, You get a cookie.

However, as others have mentioned: IT NEEDS DAMAGE. Oh, and yeah, the teleport is necessary so you can actually find/kill.

[Gavinfoxx]

At this point, you should probably go for 'if I can melee him, I can deal several times more hit point damage than he has hit points'.

Consider an ubercharger or a Hood?

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood:_A_Tale_of_38;_Guide_to_th e_3.5_Dragoon

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026

Also, you should assume he is immune to hit point damage, so you need a way to dispel magic on a hit.

[NimbleNZ]

This is really good, and for a new player, pretty amazing. IE, You get a cookie.

However, as others have mentioned: IT NEEDS DAMAGE. Oh, and yeah, the teleport is necessary so you can actually find/kill.

more damge, got it

is it worth abondonning flight and just trying to teleport?

thanks for the advice :)

[Morph Bark]

Why is Swashbuckler in there?

[Gavinfoxx]

Heck, why is duelist in there? Why is he going for precision damage at ALL rather than ubercharging?

[Dictum Mortuum]

hmmm ok, thanks

can you tell me:
-how fast should i be aiming for?
-how can i get immunity to death magic?

I think phantom stag reaches ~300ft

Short answer? Play a caster.

Otherwise look up items that provide immunity to these effects (there is an armor property in book of exalted deeds I think). But again, you're caster-dependent, because you need someone to actually craft/sell you one.

[NimbleNZ]

Consider an ubercharger or a Hood?

sorry, new to this and dont understand the jargon

what do you mean by a hood?

ubercharger sounds nice, i can finally ditch the damn raptoran
:smallbiggrin:

[Gavinfoxx]

Look at the links I sent you...

And you want to be able to charge with flight... so keep the raptoran?

[Tyndmyr]

I haven't looked at the fighter build, but assume that your opposing wizard has at his disposal abrupt jaunt, wings of cover(off a wand), and all four heart of x buffs. This is standard on most of my wizard builds, and is available well before 20(9, I believe will comfortably have all these things). He will also certainly have some means of flight.

How do you prevent him from just evading your attack with a swift action and blasting you with his standards?

[NimbleNZ]

Why is Swashbuckler in there?

for weapon finesse, plus the high int works well with canny defence and unfettered defence

[NimbleNZ]

How do you prevent him from just evading your attack with a swift action and blasting you with his standards?[/QUOTE]

i guess its time to break out the spiked chain and mage slayer...:smallfrown:

[Gavinfoxx]

I say that you should ABANDON a dex based build, conceptually. You need 2 handing, charging, shock trooper, and stacking power attack multipliers.

[Tyndmyr]

How do you prevent him from just evading your attack with a swift action and blasting you with his standards?

i guess its time to break out the spiked chain and mage slayer...:smallfrown:[/QUOTE]

That's one of the better solutions, yeah. After looking over this build...I have to say it's not a bad melee build at all, and would scale nicely into epic levels...but for wizard pvp, figuring out how to overcome the action advantage is pretty critical.

[NimbleNZ]

I say that you should ABANDON a dex based build, conceptually. You need 2 handing, charging, shock trooper, and stacking power attack multipliers.

what is the problem with the dex based builds?

if i abandon dex, then reflex goes down and blasting spells actually start to hit

[Gavinfoxx]

I wouldn't worry about blasting spells... really. Blasting spells are the LEAST of your worries. Read the core wizard vs splatbook fighter results... it's one of the links I gave you!

[Morph Bark]

what is the problem with the dex based builds?

if i abandon dex, then reflex goes down and blasting spells actually start to hit

Blasting spells are also the least of your worries, especially with Evasion. You should worry more about instant-kill spells or spells that otherwise incapacitate you.

Damage doesn't incapacitate you at all until you hit 0 hp.

[Flickerdart]

I say that you should ABANDON a dex based build, conceptually. You need 2 handing, charging, shock trooper, and stacking power attack multipliers.
Contingent Spell: Whenever someone charges me, SM IX something nasty into their path.

I would recommend Darkstalker + Shadowpouncing, myself.

Edit: Blast spells don't matter. What matters is that a Quickened True Strike + ~10 BAB + a Dexterity score means that the Wizard now has a better than even chance of hitting your touch AC, and he's only used one 5th level slot and a swift action to get there. Then he drops an Enervation metamagicked to hell and back and you lose 10-15 levels. If you're lucky. If not, you lose 40 levels, and die twice.

[Tyndmyr]

Potential killers you might want to consider reactions to...

Maw of Chaos. For the optimal types, time stop, followed by several of them.

Forcecage.

Blasphemy.

Gate.

[NimbleNZ]

I wouldn't worry about blasting spells... really. Blasting spells are the LEAST of your worries. Read the core wizard vs splatbook fighter results...


ok thanks, ill rebuild it to ficus on insta kill spells and ability drain and so on :)

[Gavinfoxx]

Not just insta kill. Insta 'you lose' spells...

[Madeiner]

At the same level of optimization, there is absolutely no way in the world you are gonna win the fight.
You may be lucky to hit the wizard's astral form once, in a low-optimized setting.
If it's not an "arena type" duel, there's a good chance you'll die the day after the wizard divines your intent to attack him, without even noticing what happened.

[Angry Bob]

One possible approach to this is to get the shadow jaunt/stride/blink line along with an antimagic field and shadow pounce. The teleportation maneuvers are not supernatural, so they work inside the antimagic field. They'll only have their "all the time" buffs up, which limits the effective ones to basically anticipate teleportation. Anything else will stop working in the AMF. Conceivably, they could walk outside your amf before you arrived and spam orbs, or just disjoining you, but that would necessitate them knowing exactly what you were packing(not unlikely, actually).

So yeah, hide, move silently, darkstalker, get within 60 feet of them without them knowing, activate AMF, teleport to them, and if they don't die on the first battery of shadow pounces, you're screwed.

A lot of ifs there, and it requires spell effects of its own to begin to have a chance.

OP: Take a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10191457#post10191457).

[Flickerdart]

So yeah, hide, move silently, darkstalker, get within 60 feet of them without them knowing, activate AMF, teleport to them, and if they don't die on the first battery of shadow pounces, you're screwed.
You're in danger of getting coned if you do that, unfortunately, so you better pack something to deal with that.

[Angry Bob]

You're in danger of getting coned if you do that, unfortunately, so you better pack something to deal with that.

Which cone are we referring to?

Also, what's a really high modifer to hide/move silently you can get without magic? And what else can conceivably locate you within an AMF with darkstalker on? I want to try to work around that as well.

Another possibility is to do all of this and then grapple them instead of shadow pouncing. A grappled wizard in an AMF, barring things like Initiate of Mystra, is pretty much helpless.

Give me a little while and I'll post an alpha of the build I have in mind. EDIT: Scratch that, I can't fit everything into twenty levels, and once the caster goes epic, I lose anyway.

[faceroll]

Dragon Turtles.

I think the creature you are looking for is Dire Tortoise.

[Gavinfoxx]

The problem with grappling is how do you get to him? A wall of stone or wall of iron, properly shaped stops antimagic field!

I mean really, with a few gold dragons, and he's in a prismatic sphere, with a wall of stone and/or wall of iron inside it (both shaped as a sphere), and he's actually underground, and he's incorporeal underground, inside the three spheres...

And that's not really HIM, it's his astral projection, there with his simulacrum, and his real self is actually elsewhere...

[Morph Bark]

Which cone are we referring to?

Also, what's a really high modifer to hide/move silently you can get without magic? And what else can conceivably locate you within an AMF with darkstalker on? I want to try to work around that as well.

Whisper Gnome with that one item that grants the Dark template, with an item familiar that he puts maximum skill points for both Hide and Move Silently in? It's madness.

[Angry Bob]

Whisper Gnome with that one item that grants the Dark template, with an item familiar that he puts maximum skill points for both Hide and Move Silently in? It's madness.

The umbral collar would shut off in the AMF. Additionally, the argument could be made that the Item Familiar would lose its magical properties in an AMF, and therefore its skill thing would be unavailable. Rules?

[Flickerdart]

I think the creature you are looking for is Dire Tortoise.
Close enough.


Which cone are we referring to?

Also, what's a really high modifer to hide/move silently you can get without magic? And what else can conceivably locate you within an AMF with darkstalker on? I want to try to work around that as well.

Another possibility is to do all of this and then grapple them instead of shadow pouncing. A grappled wizard in an AMF, barring things like Initiate of Mystra, is pretty much helpless.

Give me a little while and I'll post an alpha of the build I have in mind. EDIT: Scratch that, I can't fit everything into twenty levels, and once the caster goes epic, I lose anyway.
Cast Shrink Item on a large lead cone and wear it as a hat. As soon as you are within range of an AMF, the cone expands, blocks Line of Effect, the AMF no longer affects you and you're free to teleport away.

[Gavinfoxx]

The item familiar is a Construct. Constructs don't shut down in an AMF.

[Gavinfoxx]

How are you going to kill him if he has one of the spell combinations that make him immune to death by hit point damage up? Assume you deal 3000 damage to him on a full attack or something and he's at -Arbitrary hit points. How do you win the fight?

[tyckspoon]

How are you going to kill him if he has one of the spell combinations that make him immune to death by hit point damage up? Assume you deal 3000 damage to him on a full attack or something and he's at -Arbitrary hit points. How do you win the fight?

If you're at the optimization level where you actually are dealing with a tinfoil-hat Astral Projection of a Wizard with damage immunity/ability to ignore the effects of HP damage.. the warrior can't reasonably win a duel. There is no way to counter a sufficiently defended Wizard without having heavy-duty magic in your own build (ie, Disjunction/a ludicrously cranked Dispel check on a Chained Greater/Reaving Dispel; easy access to a [preferably Quickened] AMF is also helpful for force-tripping Contingencies and other defensive measures.) Best you can probably do is make him sweat a bit and decide that leaving the fight is an easier option than dealing with you.

[Lans]

A level of a monk variant to get the sun school feat from CW, as well as a way to get immediate action teleports.


I recommend Martial Monk


Cast Shrink Item on a large lead cone and wear it as a hat. As soon as you are within range of an AMF, the cone expands, blocks Line of Effect, the AMF no longer affects you and you're free to teleport away.

Setting Sun might let you get an attack off and initiate a grapple before the cone drops, alternatively argue that the cone could just as easily expand in a fashion that it crushes the wizard.

In all seriousness A martial character can't win against shrodingers wizard, but he can force him into greater levels T.O.

[Flickerdart]

Setting Sun might let you get an attack off and initiate a grapple before the cone drops, alternatively argue that the cone could just as easily expand in a fashion that it crushes the wizard.
How can the cone crush the Wizard? It is hollow. Setting Sun wouldn't work because you can't teleport into the Wizard's space (since he occupies it) and as soon as you appear, the cone drops.


In all seriousness A martial character can't win against shrodingers wizard, but he can force him into greater levels T.O.
Schroedinger's Wizard nothing. A cone doesn't even need to be prepared every day, just made once and then worn thereafter. At 20th level, a Wizard will have enough options for spells that having at least one of the multitudinous win conditions available to him is practically guaranteed.

[Tokuhara]

Fighter fails against Wizard. Unless the Wizard is played by a total moron, he wins. However, if you pump Jump into insane levels, you could possibly reach a flying wizard...

[Gavinfoxx]

You should just get Ex flight by that point. There are several ways -- a few grafts do it, some races do it, etc.

[Talentless]

If it's not an "arena type" duel, there's a good chance you'll die the day after the wizard divines your intent to attack him, without even noticing what happened.

Every. Damn. Time. I read this argument response, I die inside.

Divination Magic just BARELY works like that from a RAW perspective, but no DM worth his salt will EVER let it work the way so many people think it does.

Yes, High Level Wizards are God Like. And yes, they can totally be crazy prepared for everything like Batman. One of the things they CAN'T* do is detect every threat that ever posed a threat to them whenever they feel like it.

*Or in a more reasonable world SHOULDN'T ever be able to.

That said, mundane vs magic user is pretty much a stacked deck in favor of the magic user.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Well, the problem with Wizard divination abilities is that they're risky and unreliable. Clerics get the better (or at least easier) end of the deal here.

That said, a wizard 20 can just gate/simulacrum/whatever a Planetar or Solar and make him do his divination dirty work. "Hi boss, sorry to call in at an awkward time. I'm just asking a few questions for a buddy who's going to help us slay some pit fiends later. So, uh, is anyone out to get him?"

[Morph Bark]

The umbral collar would shut off in the AMF. Additionally, the argument could be made that the Item Familiar would lose its magical properties in an AMF, and therefore its skill thing would be unavailable. Rules?

I'd much rather just have the actual Dark template, but so many people shut down anything with LA for a variety of reasons.

[kardar233]

A fighter only has to fail one save (or none at all, if the wizard is very efficient) to be rendered useless.

In other words:

It's safe to say that if you fail an SoL, you're SoL.

[Lans]

How can the cone crush the Wizard? It is hollow. Setting Sun wouldn't work because you can't teleport into the Wizard's space (since he occupies it) and as soon as you appear, the cone drops.

I'm assuming that the cone drops as 9.8m/s^2 and thus the character could theoretically initiate a grappple or punch a hole in that time, and that it doesn't necessarily expand perfectly. Say the wizard has his head cocked to one side a bit, is it still going to cover him or is it just going to fall off?

[ThiefInTheNight]

Also, the Wizard is flying.

If you come from below, the cone expands over his head, and blocks nothing but whatever's above him.

Hrm. Might work, maybe. Shadow Blink still requires line of sight, line of effect, and has a max range of 50 ft., though.

[Flickerdart]

I'm assuming that the cone drops as 9.8m/s^2 and thus the character could theoretically initiate a grappple or punch a hole in that time, and that it doesn't necessarily expand perfectly. Say the wizard has his head cocked to one side a bit, is it still going to cover him or is it just going to fall off?
It is still going to expand the same, then tip back over, because there is no angle where the cone would stay on his head and yet tilt the wrong way when it expands. Any space smaller than 1ft still blocks LoE, so there's quite a bit of leeway for head angle.

[Tokuhara]

And with the jump check, I was thinking a double jump. Hey, if Wizard can tell the laws of physics to take a hike, why can't fighter?

And as a small tangent, Optimized Druid 20 beats Optimized Wizard 20. 12-Headed Cryohydra Wildshape with spells and a breath weapon beats 98% of wizard's tricks.

Edit: And if anything, you can Elemental Swarm him into oblivon or use Druid logic and say, "No" to anything he does. Remember folks: Druid has better class features than any 2 classes combined

[tyckspoon]

And as a small tangent, Optimized Druid 20 beats Optimized Wizard 20. 12-Headed Cryohydra Wildshape with spells and a breath weapon beats 98% of wizard's tricks.


Wizard has Shapechange. Druid has Shapechange. They are equally good shapeshifters at this point, and if you really mean optimized they can safely be assumed to be immune to basic energy damage at this point; being a hydra is a nice trick and a handy way to deal with things that aren't that significant. It's pointless against another full caster; the only thing that really matters there is the spells you can bring to bear, and the Wizard's spell list is the best in the game. The Wizard gets access to Contingency, Disjunction, and the Foresight/Celerity combo. The Druid does not. Druid loses.

[Tokuhara]

Wizard has Shapechange. Druid has Shapechange. They are equally good shapeshifters at this point, and if you really mean optimized they can safely be assumed to be immune to basic energy damage at this point; being a hydra is a nice trick and a handy way to deal with things that aren't that significant. It's pointless against another full caster; the only thing that really matters there is the spells you can bring to bear, and the Wizard's spell list is the best in the game. The Wizard gets access to Contingency, Disjunction, and the Foresight/Celerity combo. The Druid does not. Druid loses.

Druid can simply say "No." Remember: Druid is hands-down the best summoner (if built right). And besides, Druid doesn't care if you Disjunction: I'm still a bear with spells. And divination is overrated. I ban the school every time I play a wizard. Not a fan.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Druid can simply say "No." Remember: Druid is hands-down the best summoner (if built right). And besides, Druid doesn't care if you Disjunction: I'm still a bear with spells.
What? None Druid's abilities with Summon Nature's Ally matter because of Gate, which they both have.


And divination is overrated.
Largely incorrect. Divination is, terrifyingly, actually that good, by RAW.


I ban the school every time I play a wizard.
What? That's not allowed; Divination is specifically mentioned as not being an option for banning.


Not a fan.
This is the only statement in that post that I can accept...

[Flickerdart]

And with the jump check, I was thinking a double jump. Hey, if Wizard can tell the laws of physics to take a hike, why can't fighter?

And as a small tangent, Optimized Druid 20 beats Optimized Wizard 20. 12-Headed Cryohydra Wildshape with spells and a breath weapon beats 98% of wizard's tricks.

Edit: And if anything, you can Elemental Swarm him into oblivon or use Druid logic and say, "No" to anything he does. Remember folks: Druid has better class features than any 2 classes combined
Have you seen the Jump DCs? A check of 100 will only get you about 20 feet off the ground.

[tyckspoon]

What? None Druid's abilities with Summon Nature's Ally matter because of Gate, which they both have.


Actually they don't. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) Gate is not a Druid spell. Also the Wizard's walk-around bodyguards are Mariliths/Planetars/Maruts (pick based on personal alignment), thanks to the wonders of Greater Planar Binding, which is another effect the Druid doesn't have. Being a bear stopped mattering to the Wizard anywhere between 5 and 15 levels ago; the only part that matters is the 'with spells', and the Druid's spells are the weakest of the Tier 1s.

[Lans]

As well as animate dead, pretty much just to eat the druids Companion

[ThiefInTheNight]

Actually they don't. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) Gate is not a Druid spell.
Oh, how sad. I don't see Druids in play much; no one seems to much care for them (Totemists are much more popular for the theme).

[Tokuhara]

Ok correction: I don't BAN divination per se. I don't use it. Ever.

And as a small explaination, In my group, the only class that ever was Banned from play wasn't Wizard or Sorcerer, or Cleric. It was Druid.

Because I made the BBEG look like a joke when I Earthquaked the castle on top of him. Of course, I was the only survivor of the fight. The party's wizard was caught in the castle collapse (failed reflex save vs. Big Falling Ceiling) and the rest of the party applauded when I made the toughest fight in the campaign into a single crushing (quite literally) victory.

[Mystral]

Cast Shrink Item on a large lead cone and wear it as a hat. As soon as you are within range of an AMF, the cone expands, blocks Line of Effect, the AMF no longer affects you and you're free to teleport away.

So that's why wizard hats are pointy?

[Flickerdart]

Ok correction: I don't BAN divination per se. I don't use it. Ever.

And as a small explaination, In my group, the only class that ever was Banned from play wasn't Wizard or Sorcerer, or Cleric. It was Druid.

Because I made the BBEG look like a joke when I Earthquaked the castle on top of him. Of course, I was the only survivor of the fight. The party's wizard was caught in the castle collapse (failed reflex save vs. Big Falling Ceiling) and the rest of the party applauded when I made the toughest fight in the campaign into a single crushing (quite literally) victory.
The Earthquake spell description explicitly states that it is not powerful enough to collapse stone buildings. Also, the damage from a collapsing structure is a pathetic 8d6 damage (average 28, halved by a trivial Reflex save of DC15). So yes, if you break the rules, things can seem much more powerful than they actually are.

[Tokuhara]

The Earthquake spell description explicitly states that it is not powerful enough to collapse stone buildings. Also, the damage from a collapsing structure is a pathetic 8d6 damage (average 28, halved by a trivial Reflex save of DC15). So yes, if you break the rules, things can seem much more powerful than they actually are.

Granted, the spells we had been casting were slowly softening the castle, and the Wizard only had 10 HP left (brutal fight with 6 Wraiths controlled by a Brain in a Jar with levels in Psion). My Earthquake just knocked over the support beam to the castle

[Little Brother]

Druid can simply say "No." Remember: Druid is hands-down the best summoner (if built right). And besides, Druid doesn't care if you Disjunction: I'm still a bear with spells. And divination is overrated. I ban the school every time I play a wizard. Not a fan.Ahem. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718)

Also, see below.

Actually they don't. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) Gate is not a Druid spell. Also the Wizard's walk-around bodyguards are Mariliths/Planetars/Maruts (pick based on personal alignment), thanks to the wonders of Greater Planar Binding, which is another effect the Druid doesn't have. Being a bear stopped mattering to the Wizard anywhere between 5 and 15 levels ago; the only part that matters is the 'with spells', and the Druid's spells are the weakest of the Tier 1s.One thing to keep in mind, though, is Aberrant Wildshape gives you wizard casting.


So that's why wizard hats are pointy?
Exactly.

[Flickerdart]

Granted, the spells we had been casting were slowly softening the castle, and the Wizard only had 10 HP left (brutal fight with 6 Wraiths controlled by a Brain in a Jar with levels in Psion). My Earthquake just knocked over the support beam to the castle
Why would the BBEG own a castle that rests upon a single support beam? Especially in a universe where people can just go around casting Earthquake spells.

In conclusion: You used a spell beyond its rules, after many rounds of preparation, to do something unimpressive, therefore Druids are overpowered.

[Calanon]

I think the creature you are looking for is Dire Tortoise.

What book is this from?


Divination is overrated. I ban the school every time I play a wizard. Not a fan.


A wizard can never give up divination to fulfill this requirement.

I'm confused...

[NNescio]

What book is this from?

Sandstorm, AKA "It's Hot Outside".

[Tokuhara]

Why would the BBEG own a castle that rests upon a single support beam? Especially in a universe where people can just go around casting Earthquake spells.

In conclusion: You used a spell beyond its rules, after many rounds of preparation, to do something unimpressive, therefore Druids are overpowered.

Also understand that it was a culmination of making fights easy, as well as other small in-game issues (party felt overshadowed) that lead to Druid's One-Year Ban.

The Party at the time was:

Human Focused Diviner/Master Specialist/Divine Oracle/Archmage
Half-Drow Half-Grey Elf Warblade/Eternal Blade
Warforged Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker/Warforged Juggernaut
Strongheart Halfling Rogue/Master Thrower/Exotic Weapon Master(Bladed Fan)
Me, a Tasloi Druid/Planar Shepard/Warshaper
Elf Mystic Arcanist-Hunting Ranger/Sacred Exorcist/Walker of the Misty Isles

[chaos_redefined]

Ban the planar shepherd. Leave the druid alone. See how that goes.

[Tokuhara]

Ban the planar shepherd. Leave the druid alone. See how that goes.

He banned Druid, Planar Shepard, Warshaper, Nature's Warrior, etc. Basically everything that remotely referenced Druid

[NimbleNZ]

Mundanes never win initiative because of Foresight, Celerity and Dragon Turtles. .

if the warrior had mind blank from an item would that negate the wizards foresight and allow initiative to be rolled?

thanks for the comments by the way, its been very informative.

[NNescio]

if the warrior had mind blank from an item would that negate the wizards foresight and allow initiative to be rolled?

thanks for the comments by the way, its been very informative.

Foresight targets the caster, not the warrior.

And shapechanging into a Dragon Turtle Dire Tortoise lets the caster get a surprise round regardless of circumstances anyway.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Of all the really dumb things in D&D, the Dire Tortoise, I think, must be the dumbest.

...and then I remember that Manipulate Form is a thing...

[Endarire]

Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon) can kill a Wizard if Hood is a Wizard. I'm unsure about being a complete non-caster, though.

[NimbleNZ]

Foresight targets the caster, not the warrior..

it can target whoever the caster wishes, but obviously they would cast it on themselves.

foresight: "Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell".

However, foresight is a divination school spell; and...

mind blank: "This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells..."

so again, does mind blank foil foresight?

[tyckspoon]

so again, does mind blank foil foresight?

No. Foresight is a personal buff on the caster. It has no interaction with anybody else's Mind Blank; if it was beaten by Mind Blank it would never work at all, because somebody somewhere would have a Mink Blank up to defeat your Foresight.

[NimbleNZ]

if it was beaten by Mind Blank it would never work at all, because somebody somewhere would have a Mink Blank up to defeat your Foresight.

would it not just detect everything except those that were protected against it?

sorry im still not convinced, the wording says it "protects against...information gathering by divination spells..."

foresight is definately a divination spell and its definately gather information, so...