Planning an Epic Level Game

[DoctorGlock]

Searchword: Overworld

If you will be participating in an epic level game at binghamton university in roughly three months, do not read on penalty of kneecapping


I am planning an epic level game to start in about three months, and i have a vague plot and cosmology but i need help refining and defining my multiverses. As of yet most of my players only have a build and no backstory so i cannot yet incorporate them into the world, but i still need help creating the basics. I know how epic level combat runs (speed MtG on crack) so I am not looking for help with that, just setting and plot. The players are demigods (not using the divine rank rules, more in the exalted sense)

Players:
Bard/Sublime Chord: Follows the Orpheus story, best roleplayer in the group, only real backstory I have so far
Some Ur-Priest setup: Standard god wannabe, backstory includes using apocolypse from the sky to attain godlike powers through a fullmetal alchemist setup, probably second best roleplayer
Artificer/Effigy Master: Transhumanist who has left his mortal world and self behind
Ardent/Swiftblade thing: Still under construction, likely going for a minor god of time theme, not enough details yet
Ardent/Uncarnate: horror out of space, cosmic entity, no story yet or even commitment

Setting Elements (important since they might help with suggestions)
The setting is a mix of all settings and mythologies. There are multiple Multiverses, spanned by the branches of the world tree Yggdrassil. By following the winding paths of its branches you can reach any published setting or mythology, each is its own contained multiverse. Yggdrassil exists in a reflection of all creation known as the overworld, a parallel reality that exists in all settings and is the only unified whole that spans them. The overworld is full of anthropomorphized reflections on the reality side counterpart and each one can effect the other. (interacting in the overworld with the personifications of night and day can delay the sunset above a world for example, likewise blowing up a moon would kill the personified entity in the overworld) Teleports and planeshifts can only occur within a specific setting/multiverse, there will be other ways to traverse the external creation

The basic plot begins as follows:
Our players begin in the land of the dead, specifically Izanami's realm of utter suck. Players meet, find way out, way out involved bargaining with Izanami herself.
What she wants: she is attempting to stage a war against the Powers, three beings who represent a universal principle, and she isn't the only god planning something like this. Our cosmic entities marked for death here include a being that represents time, another for space, another for entropy and another for energy (based off the characters from our last game under another DM, who might join)
My problem: without revealing her true intentions, how does she get the players to take on a pack of beings woven into the very fabric of the cosmos. I could use something like "if your souls exit this realm, some must take your places" but that is heavy handed and ugly and I'd rather not. What motivations could I give the players to do this?
Her motivation is to wrest the individual beings from the principles they embody, freeing the roles for possible takeover, going from god in the D&D sense to something closer to god in the biblical sense/immortals handbook sense. I do not want to reveal this too early however.

After/If the players can pull if off, how do I reveal the true plan without some random godling busting in before the big reveal?

The big reveal in this case is that the players have destabilized all multiverses and everything is collapsing inward in some kind of big crush on steroids, readying for the rise of the next creation. I want to introduce a few entities here, namely Azrael who heralds the end of all things (so the new can come about) and Eblis who just wants creation to end for good

Problems: How do I bring them in without destroying any form of immersion?

Throughout all of this the players are going top be warping around performing miracles and managing their own religions as they try to ascend to true godhood and possibly more.

So, in short, how do i link all my events, how do i provide incentives for players, what ideas for locations and events would you put in? What descriptions?

Locations I would like to use so far include: (planar/Extraplanar) Valhalla, Hell, Erebus, the eagle nebula, earth (Overworld) Garden of Eden, The World Tree, The Alpha (A location that exists outside of time, everywhere and everywhen can be seen from here by one with strong enough will)

Also, is there a guide for writing a campaign log, i want to make one for this.

Lastly, since this thread will likely be used alot during both planning and play, how do i avoid getting hammered with thread necromancy penalties when i start running the game in 3 months?

[hamishspence]

Maybe put the thread in the Homebrew section- I think the mods allow the creator of a homebrew thread to revive it, if permission is requested.

For an epic version of Hell (its dukes and archdukes, at least, as well as some monsters)- Dicefreaks' Gates of Hell pages are full of detail.

[Kol Korran]

hey DoctorGlock. i am not that familiar with planar adventures, epic level gaming and the like, but i'll try and help as well as i can.




My problem: without revealing her true intentions, how does she get the players to take on a pack of beings woven into the very fabric of the cosmos. I could use something like "if your souls exit this realm, some must take your places" but that is heavy handed and ugly and I'd rather not. What motivations could I give the players to do this?
Her motivation is to wrest the individual beings from the principles they embody, freeing the roles for possible takeover, going from god in the D&D sense to something closer to god in the biblical sense/immortals handbook sense. I do not want to reveal this too early however.

the best way to manipulate players is have them figure something themselves, instead of being handed an option. make thme think it's THEIR idea. for example:

Izanami doesn't offer them any way of escape, no deal, might even battle and humiliatethem a little. but the party sees something- some plan, some charts, some mystic knoweldge, some divining pool, something like that. they go ona little adventure trying to figure things out. Izanami makes things hard for them, but not TOO hard, so they find their piece of information, only it's a lie. it could be a special "defense system" of her realm that brings back any individual that escapes, weakening them, after X time has passed. the only way this defense system can be overridden is by taking out these... "powers". (hopefully the players don't know who or what they are, they are mysterious enough as tot not realize their importance right away).

or you could tie the powers to your character's ambitions- Izanami's info revelas a way out, but what do you know? it also includes that the entity of energy is the key to godhood of character Z. and if the other to powers could be taken, then the path to godhood is quite easy as well, or something else... depending on playwer's motivations.

the idea is to let your players find this out "on themselves" (or so they'd think) and make it hard enough to find so that they will believe it is really important, and also probably true. again- make them think it was THEIR idea, stemming out of their motivation. players immediately distrust anything easy, and any NPC.


After/If the players can pull if off, how do I reveal the true plan without some random godling busting in before the big reveal?

i'm not quite getting what you're asking here. the true plan is usurping their power? well, a few ideas:
- the powers existance is known to but a few. also, the unraveling of the cosmos starts slowly, but then picks up speed. at the first stage of unraveling, different deities and powerful creatures may have different ideas, even start wars with each other trying to gain control, or blaiming others of attacks on their realms. have a certain period of unrest, chaos and confusion.

meanwhile, those who are "in the know" move slowly to usurp power. but assming the role of one of the pwoers takes time, exertion, and skill, meaning that the great entity who tries to do si (or entities) are sort of "out of the game" for the time being, relying on their servvents, which might give the PCs a big of "foot in the door" (i hiope i got this phrase right)


The big reveal in this case is that the players have destabilized all multiverses and everything is collapsing inward in some kind of big crush on steroids, readying for the rise of the next creation. I want to introduce a few entities here, namely Azrael who heralds the end of all things (so the new can come about) and Eblis who just wants creation to end for good

Problems: How do I bring them in without destroying any form of immersion?

what do you mean by "destroying any form of Immersion"? i don't know who these two beings are, but a fun take might be that they do not actually exist, but are ideas that take form (in one of the existing forces/ bodies) and make themselves exist more and more as the end approaches. since i assume the party is against this, then these beings might oppose them, in ever stronger, ever more prepared, ever deadlier forms and powers (sort of Agent Smith in the matrix? sort of "it's inevitable") at first they don't have to explain why the battle the PCs, seemingly random, but as they meet them again and again, the PCs realize their importance, and perhaps research/divine them, learning about them. that might be an early (or late) sign of what's about to happen.


Also, is there a guide for writing a campaign log, i want to make one for this.

there are many kinds of Campaign logs around. i don't think there is a "guide", it really depends on what you want to put there. look at examples and see what appeals to you. since you're the DM, this offers a bit of a different perspective. some things to thinks about:
- who is the log for? some writers want to tell a story, for either their group or other forumists to read. if so, write in story form. some want to tell of the gaming experience. if so provide anecdotes from the table and players as well. some use it also to describe the game planning and more (like my log, in my sig) which are used mostly by them and in retrospect. or a mix of all.

- are your player's supposed to read or not? it affects what secrets you might tell while writing the log.

- short or long? short posts (roughly) often get more readers, while longer ones are more detailed often, but get far less readers (your own players included)

a few Logs to check out: (though they are long to read, you can get ideas of style)
the legendary SilverClawShift logs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116836). excellent player's log.
AslanCross' DM's log of a Red hand of Doom campaign in Eberron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110022&highlight=eberron+aslan) includes planning and modifications by the DM to the module. very interesting read.
Seven Kingdom campaign, with Saph as a player. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139572&highlight=Doom+saph)
she writes mostly out of the player's point of view, with interesting tales and insights to the game.
again Saph, as DM in Red hand of Doom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94243). this one from the DM's point of view, in a very high lethality game
Swrdsage's journal, by Dranlu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169149). failry new, from the PCs point of view. yet to finish.

and of course there is mine, in my sig, a heroic type of campaign for low - mid levels, in Eberron from the DM's point of view (mine) yet to finish


Lastly, since this thread will likely be used alot during both planning and play, how do i avoid getting hammered with thread necromancy penalties when i start running the game in 3 months?

a few things:
- first of all i suggest you write in the opening post for the forum modulators of this intention, i have a thread which is a sort of strange monster Compendium that gets updated once in every few months. haven't had trouble with it since.

- second of all, i highly advise against using the thread to organize your stuff. instead use a wiki to organize, and the threads to consult with forumists about specific problems. there are two good sites for free wikis:
PBworks (http://pbworks.com/) is what i have used this far. really simple, used it for a group site (characters, world info, session summaries, list of XP, equipment and perhaps even character logs) but i've been introduced to a specific RPG free wiki called obsidian portal (http://www.obsidianportal.com/). i haven't used it yet, but i might in the upcoming campaign. it seems to be really nicely done.

- again, i advise against a single thread for consultation, because new peopel to the thread will be discouraged by the ton of reading they'll have to do to get to the point. instead, using multiple threads, for specific questions. write in each opening post some specific and unique search word (name of player or character?)you could use to quickly locate all your threads.

hope this helped,
Kol. :smallamused:

[DoctorGlock]

@Hamish: Dicefreaks is a bit too epic for me, we are going lvl 20-40 over the course of the game. I did love the GoH fluff however, even if the monsters were unoptmized

@Kol: Direct confrontation with Izanami will likely result in getting roflstomped. The scrying reveal is probably best, probably if I do it during the time entity arc (probably at the alpha), that way it makes sense for them to see the events.

I do not intend for Izanami to directly tell them but i want other options than just combat, i expect that the bard will probably diplomacy her way directly into Izanami's citadel (following a japanese setup, if they can loophole their way in under the laws of hospitality, Izzy and the shinigami cannot touch them, though they can set up a situation where the party violates the laws of hospitality), and from there it's suddenly a direct confrontation of one sort or another

As to the two beings, the player will recognize the names from mythology/religion. Azrael is the angel of death and Eblis is the devil in Islam. While I can certainly have Azrael be a manifestation of the end of times, the devil is always there ever plotting.

Also, you are probably right, I'll make specific threads for each issue, i'm just at the rather nebulous planning stage where i need to link events before i get to specifics

[Kol Korran]

Direct confrontation with Izanami will likely result in getting roflstomped. The scrying reveal is probably best, probably if I do it during the time entity arc (probably at the alpha), that way it makes sense for them to see the events.

I do not intend for Izanami to directly tell them but i want other options than just combat, i expect that the bard will probably diplomacy her way directly into Izanami's citadel (following a japanese setup, if they can loophole their way in under the laws of hospitality, Izzy and the shinigami cannot touch them, though they can set up a situation where the party violates the laws of hospitality), and from there it's suddenly a direct confrontation of one sort or another

i was trying to suggest alternate approaches to combat (though combat with her minions or guardians might be possible) the idea is to make the party work for it, and the knowledge itself seem hidden.

as i said, i know little of the entities and this sort of high level game, i apologize for any glaring misunderstandings.

perhaps they could be embroiled in some sort of epic sort of political/ "seeking a position of power" court games between Izanami's powerful minions? in true shadowrun fashion, they seek "deniable assets" house to humiliate/frame/ "complicate matters" for another member of the court, offering some knowledge in return? this of course has to be done subtly, and according to protocol. might be an interesting challenge.


As to the two beings, the player will recognize the names from mythology/religion. Azrael is the angel of death and Eblis is the devil in Islam. While I can certainly have Azrael be a manifestation of the end of times, the devil is always there ever plotting.


both of them can use different names, have their names be hidden, or use fake names and appearances (and have their real names be protected by spells, epic level cosmic laws and the like.

Azrael might be a returning manifestation of ending/ wrath/ apocalypse/ destruction, while Eblis could appear in many forms, pulling various strings, a sort of puppet master at times, but perhaps using more direct methods at others. i'm not sure how the Islamic devil is portrayed, but if you can work him as a tempter and deceiver of souls, trying to use the party ins subtle ways, it could be delighftul- have some of them believe his course of action would make things better, have others mistrust everyone, even their allies.


Also, you are probably right, I'll make specific threads for each issue, i'm just at the rather nebulous planning stage where i need to link events before i get to specifics

of course, quite understood. however, i suggest to plan situations and the plans of the forces involved, not a plot. the players might (especially at these power levels) change your campaign completely. an out line is good, as well as detailing major centerpieces but i would set down to a full fledged plot. it will change, and the best gaming comes when it changes.

you probably know all that, bu tthought o mention it just in case. i know at least one DM who prepares extensively before each campaign, despite warnings.

[DoctorGlock]

Actually, internal court politics is exactly what i'm looking for. Thanks for that. Now I just need specific.

Wondrous locations are the next bit i want to work on, any ideas (probably should make a new thread for that)

[Endarire]

Remember, making an Epic creature or character takes a long time. Also, the breadth of options between a Wizard20 and a Wizard40 doesn't vary that much.

I've found Epic works best if you have a strong buildup from lower levels. The Epic game I ran capped at 22 for most PCs but started at 1.

Based on what I've experienced, the logical course for most Epic characters is, well, Batman who isolates himself on his private demiplane via genesis (which the Bard/Sublime Chord could do) and runs things through agents, contacts, simulacrums, and minions. If a fight does break out, it's "be there and win rocket tag or don't show up."

Initiative matters extremely. It's rocket tag. Rocket tag. Rocket tag a third time for you to realize just how rocket taggy things are. It's usually "find the hole in the immunities," which, if your foes are worth their Epic status, won't have.

But if you want to have things seem high power without invoking 40 page character booklets (many of which are just defenses), go ahead and run things pretty much as written. Run some sample fights and minor scenarios to get a good idea on how things run. Epic is its own beast, and God help you through this, man!

[Zagaroth]

For the Eblis name change, do a Scrambled name. It's a classic method!

Silbe, Besil, Blies, Libes, Liseb, Lebis. The first one is a simple reversal, second one keeps the syllables in the same order, but reverses the spelling in each syllable.

[DoctorGlock]

Myquestions were all fluff and story related, might I ask why the thread ended up in the rules/stat section of the board?

[Kol Korran]

an idea:

- as part of the campaign the party seeks someone who knows some secret they are looking for, but it's terribly hard to focus one him/ her/ it, they need to reaffirm the idea every so on, and it seems that no one knows who it is? a few do however, and the party might search them out.

after some adventures, they finally learn the soul's location-

halls of the forgotten:
the souls who get here either made no special achievements in life, and worshiped no god strongly, and so "ended up" here. but there are some who are put here especially to be forgotten, to be neutrelized, both in person and the memory of their actions.

the halls are a secret demi- plane, housing remains of ghosts, sad things, flitting shells. there are a few challenges in this place:
- finding access to this place. the plane itself tries to make all who know about it forget it.

- once they are in trying to find their person. regular location spells might not work, as there is very little of the person left. the party may need a specialized spell or some other method focusing on the one remaining essence of the person to find it. perhaps they must track down fragments of it's memory the he left behind, learning more about it as they go.

- once they are in, the plane tries to make the party forget who they are, who are their friends, goals and so on. this could be represented by mere negative levels, but i suggest more personal things involved. make them forget key elements of the campaign (opponents, clues and more). whether this can be retrieved or not i leave to you.

you might have some sort of special guardians/ monsters/ entities that try to dissuade "aware ones" from venturing. these could be sentient beasts, or sort of barely sentient marauding "guard dogs" that may themselves have some power to strip away memories.

- once they find the shell of a person, it doesn't help- it doesn't remember what they want to know. they'll have to bring it's memory back (which might mean returning a dangerous entity into the multiverse), that could be done outside of the plane. but...

- where is the exit? the plane made them forget that as well (and as a sort of a prison plane, it blocks usual dimensional travel). perhaps the party left a memory at the starts, or on the way? (leaving bread crumbs), but now they have to re-figure what they are? and quick, before not much of them isleft on the plane.

i may have some ideas later on, not exactly experienced at these sort of adventures.

[DoctorGlock]

actually kol, i happen to really like that. alot. it also gives me a way to link other locations in. to restore life/will to the subject, party must get a fruit from the tree of life/tree of knowledge in the garden of eden, guarded by watchful seraphim. to even get to the garden they need to find it and very few entities still alive know where it is, only the eldest of being could tell you. perhaps lilith, maybe Eblis himself, supposing you could actually talk to him, perhaps nidhogg who gnaws the roots of the world tree remembers the direction from whence the first men fled. even after finding it, it is a long and difficult journey through the softer and less defined parts of the overworld where the laws of reality hold no sway. this links quite a few places i've wanted to use.

[Kol Korran]

glad you liked my previous idea. here's another:

Ocean of flesh: this is inspired by the Flesh manipulators of Eberron- the Daelkyr who are sort the masters of madness and aberrations. but it could be themed on any flesh/ madness/ lovecraft horror thing:

there is a demi plane that few speaks of- one who's purpose is... unclear. a place of aberrations (the regular denzines are Aboleths or aquatic mindflayers, but there are more. mostly colossal sized gibbering mouthers (the whales of this plane), who are in fact many people's minds and flesh joined together.

the plane is a sort of a giant ocean, partly water, but partly just... a huge web of masses of conjoined flesh, writhing, changing, evolving and devolving, partly attacking it's inhabitants, partly providing for them, an actual "living" ocean. it is in fact just one enormous creature!

wait? why are the PCs here? i think this could be sort of a campaign path if "something else went wrong", or a hiding place, or perhaps a very un looked at and very bizarre and difficult "short cut". there are entities in the masses of flesh, ancient ones, known only as "the makers/ the architects/ the planners/ the mad ones" who are trying to achieve... something. some new creature? evolution? creation?

but the madness of the plane, having it somewhat outside the others make it peculiar, perhaps not subject to some of the rules in the others. therefor the makers, in their madness (is it madness? perhaps no one understand their genius) may know things, or provide the party with some things that few others can.

of course, the planners demand a price... perhaps some wantong mutation? perhaps some essence of their godling potential? perhaps something more amorpheus? (unknonw to them this might give a future creation in the campaing a particular advantage against them, perhaps a very specific, very efficient god's assassin?)

the plane itself should have tentacles, mouths, odd limbs and curious strange physiology to everything, but the madness is also mental, not just physical. strange images, thoughts, emotions. some making sense, some just a little, some not at all.

you can have the weirdest fights here, the craziest combinations of creatures and stuff, and don't forget- the ocean itself might be out to get them (though not intentionally)

they might fight Aboleths metropolises amongst the crevices of some huge gland, or aquatic mindflayers in the chambers of some enormous ganglion, spinal cord or brains/s. building sized beholders with 25 eye rays, acting as a sort of immune system for this super organism. i'd suggest higher level creatures, but i never played at these levels, so i can't say.

the planners themselves? i have no idea what they are but something that can change it's form to fit the task as hand seems plausible, and NOT by magic, rather by some freakingly advanced "biology" (sort to speak). and their plan- ineffable i'd suggest, though the party might glance at a few glimpses of it.

another approach is to have the party hunted at some point, and they go here, the plane's "no man's land" sort of. all who went here died by the voracious appetite of the ocean. but the party finds a way to survive (most likely with some help, that comes with a price) and might even make a tangible base of operations here, for a short while, till they get back in the game.

hope this helps,
Kol.

[Kol Korran]

another idea sprang to mind (this is fun!) a simpler one, at iconic to at least D&D:

The City of Brass!

the famous city of the Efreet sultans, and rulers of the plane of fire. the themes i'm thinking of is a mix of arabian culture themes (i mean- sultans and such) but also a sort of free black market, for both equipment and rumors. most deal with slaves, but favors are also a commodity here, one that is enforced by some power, perhaps the same power that binds the efreets specific wish contracts.

the party could look here for special wishes (assuming that "regular wishes" are in their power), or perhaps for special merchandise. my take on the brass city is that it's the cosmic plane's "dwarves hall": it's the place of the expert special metals and material blacksmiths and more exquisite crafters.

i think there might be some info about the place in manual of the planes (i don't have it) and i think one of the last adventures on the "legacy of fire" adventure path by Paizo detailed the city extensively.

kol.

[DoctorGlock]

City of Brass is indeed a classic, though for my players it brings back bad memories... wishes gone horribly, horribly, wrong. People cleaned out of the scenery. Carl Orf music. Maybe they will have a bit more confidence with all those powers under their belts this time.

Ocean of Flesh... I was originally going to do a forest of flesh, but this actually gives a good transition for soft places in the overworld or rejected creations from the beginning. Also give me a good ocean to use because I wanted a long voyage through the undefined regions. Now I just need a proper boat. Charon's ferry, the dutchman, Naglfar... any other ideas for those? I'm thinking of having this be an alternate creation they stumble into from "the quintessential sea", an actual infinite ocean that the players have encountered in previous games.

Huge beholder with 25 eye rays?
SRD has got us covered http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gibberingOrb.htm

This provides everything location wise related to player 1. Now for some generic stuff!

The Alpha: A fragment of creation that exists partially outside of it, from here it is possible to glimpse anywhere and anywhen for one with sufficient will.
Design notes: This one is hard, I want to make it unusual and abnormal. Everywhere you look you are seeing images of anything, but there should be a base "what this place looks like", this should be ever shifting, but never normal. Floating in space on the event horizon of a black hole, chunks of rock and streams of burning starstuff/constructed of lattices of crystallized light in geometric patterns/cyclopean ruins, what would be best? Black hole is probably bad because I'm using that for the entropy personification.

The world tree itself: extends untold miles into an endless star studded sky, massive birds can bee seen to flit between its infinite branches. The sun here never rises in this place between the worlds. The roots descent into grey clouds thick enough to walk on and across the endless cloudscape they occasionaly break surface, extended past the horizon.

Eden: Long since abandoned and overgrown, long grasses billow beneath and colored by perpetual twilight skies colored by the aurora. There is no sign of civilization or hints that ever there was, the unchecked growth, faded and dying. On the horizon can be seen two twisted trees, leafless, they burn with golden flames but are not consumed. By the light you can see branches studded with unknown fruits.

The interface of night and day: More and event that an location, but is that as well, this is the personification of sunrise and sunset as seen from the overworld. The plain is infinite, dunes of sand that go forever. A man with golden brown skin in ornate golden garb dances, spinning torches as he walks forward, behind him are billions of fireflies, lighting a place devoid of celestial bodies, Before him retreat billions of chittering black beetles, a writhing carpet on the ground. In his wake there is golden light. Twelve hours from now he will be chased by a woman with ebony skin in the blackest of silks, her beetles devouring the fireflies and darkness falling. In the world below, the sun rises and sets as normal.

Izanami's Land of the Dead: A desert eternal, the sun is a searing red orb far too large in the sky, the heat scorches the white sands, sands of the bones of the dead, ground down eternally by the howling wind through the desolate wastes. Time and again the wind uncovers rank upon rank of bodies in various states of decay and motion. They are the dead, interred beneath the sands. The traveler here cannot stop moving or he too will be swallowed by the hungry earth. Every now and then you might spot a caretaker, the Shinigami, walking the sands, looking for any anomalies in the order of dissolution. Plodding endlessly through the wastes on the back of a massive skeleton turtle is Izanami's citadel and the heart of her private hell.

[Kol Korran]

Huge beholder with 25 eye rays?
SRD has got us covered http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gibberingOrb.htm
wha...? i...? well i'll be!


The Alpha: A fragment of creation that exists partially outside of it, from here it is possible to glimpse anywhere and anywhen for one with sufficient will.
Design notes: This one is hard, I want to make it unusual and abnormal. Everywhere you look you are seeing images of anything, but there should be a base "what this place looks like", this should be ever shifting, but never normal. Floating in space on the event horizon of a black hole, chunks of rock and streams of burning starstuff/constructed of lattices of crystallized light in geometric patterns/cyclopean ruins, what would be best? Black hole is probably bad because I'm using that for the entropy personification.

hhmmm... my thought it that SInce Alpha can see everywhere, then perhaps you can access it everywhere- it demands some sort of technique of focusing int yourself, pulling yourself into the most basic knot that ties you to everything else. the process is dangerous, and might result in total nnihilation, and further attempts increase the danger, so people try to refrain from using this option too often.

but where do you arrive? i'll suggest something a bit luckluster- you arrive at a node of an impressive looking web.

what then? navigating the web is done by associations- everything is somehow connected to everything (cosmos wide web). first the party find each other through simple associations, and then they shift in the web (or does the web shift them) as a result of will power and connecting the right associations, which are mostly metaphorical. how much does ittake them to find their target is up to you, but the focus shifting should cause exertion.

travel back to "self" can be instantaneous, or more complicated.

hhmmm.. i just realized there may be too many similarities tothe "halls of the forgotten" idea...


Eden: Long since abandoned and overgrown, long grasses billow beneath and colored by perpetual twilight skies colored by the aurora. There is no sign of civilization or hints that ever there was, the unchecked growth, faded and dying. On the horizon can be seen two twisted trees, leafless, they burn with golden flames but are not consumed. By the light you can see branches studded with unknown fruits.

i think it might be interesting to have some "refugees" here, people spared and supposedly harmless, living meagerly of the remains of Eden. they can be good/ bad or in between, further enhancing the abandonment. perhaps remains of simple (nature fitting) facilities for those who dwelt here?


The interface of night and day: More and event that an location, but is that as well, this is the personification of sunrise and sunset as seen from the overworld. The plain is infinite, dunes of sand that go forever. A man with golden brown skin in ornate golden garb dances, spinning torches as he walks forward, behind him are billions of fireflies, lighting a place devoid of celestial bodies, Before him retreat billions of chittering black beetles, a writhing carpet on the ground. In his wake there is golden light. Twelve hours from now he will be chased by a woman with ebony skin in the blackest of silks, her beetles devouring the fireflies and darkness falling. In the world below, the sun rises and sets as normal.

this sounds cool, but what is the purpose of this ritual in the campaign, and what help are you needing in this?


Izanami's Land of the Dead: A desert eternal, the sun is a searing red orb far too large in the sky, the heat scorches the white sands, sands of the bones of the dead, ground down eternally by the howling wind through the desolate wastes. Time and again the wind uncovers rank upon rank of bodies in various states of decay and motion. They are the dead, interred beneath the sands. The traveler here cannot stop moving or he too will be swallowed by the hungry earth. Every now and then you might spot a caretaker, the Shinigami, walking the sands, looking for any anomalies in the order of dissolution. Plodding endlessly through the wastes on the back of a massive skeleton turtle is Izanami's citadel and the heart of her private hell.

that sounds like an awesome place!

[DoctorGlock]

this sounds cool, but what is the purpose of this ritual in the campaign, and what help are you needing in this?

Purpose is mostly so the players can interfere or at at least understand how the overworld interacts with the realities. Also because interfering to stop the sunset is pretty classic mythos and might help for the "perform miracles and accumulate believers" part of the game, where they find ways to attain true divinity. The game is alot like what would happen if you combined baldurs gate with black and white, one part campaign one part civilization management. I feel it helps the players feel that they have real power, not just their character sheet stats. Having wish at will doesn't mean as much after the game as having followers on many worlds who speak of your miracles. Sure, they can run around smiting people, but I'm willing to bet it's far less satisfying to the players. As to help, whatever you think might make it seem more fitting. Or just help with the overworld aspect in general.

As to the alpha, I might just go with "nothing there until you will it" as it is literally a nexus of infinite possibilities (also lets the players enjoy world shaping). I'm probably going to use the idea of "Ohr Ain Sof" from kabalah since it's fairly close. It manifests as a light so bright all else seems pitch black, rocks drift about aimlessly, protrusions from the reality on the other side, black against a light that is both the absence and presence of all things. By concentrating and willing, you can force a far more pleasant scene to become the dominant. Prolonged exposure to this place can cause madness. I need mechanics for all this.

As to Eden... I am worried that placing intelligent entities there will detract from the sense of abandonment. Frankly, aside from the seraphim in the trees I am not sure if i should stick anything living there. Maybe fauna and such... maybe large barely sentient creatures that revere the place but are far to simple to understand it and wander aimlessly. Mostly it's because i want the unbroken silence of the place to speak for it.

[DoctorGlock]

I'm also looking for side plots and quests, anyone have any? What have all of you done for epic?

[Kol Korran]

I feel it helps the players feel that they have real power, not just their character sheet stats. Having wish at will doesn't mean as much after the game as having followers on many worlds who speak of your miracles. Sure, they can run around smiting people, but I'm willing to bet it's far less satisfying to the players. As to help, whatever you think might make it seem more fitting. Or just help with the overworld aspect in general.
not sure what the "voerworld" is exactly, but some ideas of acts that might helps them gain believers/ godhood:

- you can go with racial myths. i suggest myths that hold importance to two races, so that their actions will make them a wanted deity in one culture, and hated in another (black and white, yes?) for example- reforging the
"Olden Hammer" form the bones of the earth might grant favor with dwarves, but these bones belonged to the first real colossus, and might gain the enmity of the giants (and giant gods). or there might be a wounded life tree, revered by the elves, having been wounded in the last clash with orc gods. heling it will gain the favor of elves, the hatred oforcs, killing the tree will gain the reverse.

- primal forces myths: "the sword that bound death"- once, long ago death was far more powerful, and a real persona. but a major agent of life struck it down, binding it to a rock, with a sword made of the pure life force. however, death grabbed it, and pushed it back, not letting it plunge all the way down. thus, life tries to kill death, and death tries to save it's life. if the party can change that, they might turn things around, but perhaps not as they expected... (i assume less death might occur, which is not necessarily a good thing, making wars never ceasing, harvest never harvested (sorry for the lame sentence), old men moaning wishing to die. at least for a while, till things return (hopefully with the PCs efforts) to normal. or death become absolute in a world where undead arise, raise dead and resurrection abound) and more importantly- all births are still born. both occurrences will make people seek an answer, to believe.

- another myth (to steal from Terry Pratchet partly) is the History books/ the books of time: a library of infinite size, where everyone's life is being written- people, animals, spirits, cities, nations, races, continents, the world, the multiverase... and with the right talent, one might be able to rewrite things in one book, make them different, make some ancient wrongs different. but the other books remain the same, so memories, stories told might stay the same, and people will know that a power, a greater power, has changed the past, and somehow the now. THAT might make people believe.


As to the alpha, I might just go with "nothing there until you will it" as it is literally a nexus of infinite possibilities (also lets the players enjoy world shaping). I'm probably going to use the idea of "Ohr Ain Sof" from kabalah since it's fairly close. It manifests as a light so bright all else seems pitch black, rocks drift about aimlessly, protrusions from the reality on the other side, black against a light that is both the absence and presence of all things. By concentrating and willing, you can force a far more pleasant scene to become the dominant. Prolonged exposure to this place can cause madness. I need mechanics for all this.

i don't have an idea for mechanics for this other than the lame will save/ wis check. i will try to think of some...


As to Eden... I am worried that placing intelligent entities there will detract from the sense of abandonment. Frankly, aside from the seraphim in the trees I am not sure if i should stick anything living there. Maybe fauna and such... maybe large barely sentient creatures that revere the place but are far to simple to understand it and wander aimlessly. Mostly it's because i want the unbroken silence of the place to speak for it.

hhmmmm.. i understand. might be nice to have a soundtrack for everything else (or most things) but totally lack one here.

a few roaming elementals (not to fight, for atmosphere) might be nice- to show the place is slowly falling apart to it's basic elements. what is their purpose in Eden? the trees?their fruit?

[DoctorGlock]

Ugh, I tried to reply and it was eaten by the database backup. It was a long one too. Now I'm going to have to keep it brief.

The overworld is not a plane but a creation spanning reality that has little defined rules. It contains many of the mythic locations such as the world tree, the sea of flesh, eden and more. There was an example in the first post, but in short reality does not hold true in the overworld. There can be anywhere from 1 to 15 states of matter instead of 3 (or 5 depending on how plasma and quasicrystals are defined). time and space are not normal, neither are dimensions. It's almost like the far realms but it touches everywhere, less than a shadow's thickness away. It allows players to directly interact with conceptual forces by confronting the anthropomorphic form if they are too lazy to come up with a real solution, though it's still maddeningly difficult due to the way reality works.

They would travel to eden because the life tree fruit can restore literally anything no matter the circumstance and the knowledge tree can answer any question no matter the divination blocks. likewise it can be used to restore the will of somebody who was lost in the halls of dissolution that you described.

I'd be happy to take music suggestions for locations, any ideas?

Also, since this is being used for fluff and story, I think it would be better placed in roleplaying rather than 3.5 rules. might also get more responses.