Evil Level 13 Gestalt riding an Ancient Red Dragon - Suggestions?

[StormTAG]

So I've got a character to build that will be an Evil level 13 Gestalt. He's part of a military unit that has over a hundred ancient red dragons (Yes, really...) and he'll be riding said dragon. I understand that a level 13 character is more of an accessory to an Ancient Red Dragon, but I'd like to make him as useful both on and off the field. I was thinking of keeping a draconic theme, with the character's aspirations being taking command of this military unit. Oh and the stat roll is roll 21 4d6, drop lowest die, pick 6 highest sets. I rolled 18, 17, 17, 16, 16, 15. Last rule is that one side must stay single classed the entire time. I was thinking this should probably be a spell casting class of some sort.

TL;DR
What suggestions for a Dragon themed, dragon riding, level 13 Gestalt with super high abilities and one side single classed.

[TroubleBrewing]

Go one side straight sorcerer, and the other side Paladin 2/Something Else X/One of the many dragon-themed classes from Draconomicon.

Standard Sorcadin without sacrificing caster levels? Yes, please.

[herrhauptmann]

Zhentarim skymage?
Even if you get kicked out of the army and lose the dragon, you can coerce something else into serving as your mount.

I think it's in champions of ruin.

edit:
sorc x/abjurant champ5/zhentskymage// evil paladin4 (for turning)/ftr2 (feats)/ ranger 2 or 6 (choose an alernate ranger. Many variants exist)/racial paragon 3 (match the paragon caster level boosts with any lost CL of zhentskymage)

Maybe throw in either some Marshall or DFI (or DFA, I always forget which gets the auras)

[Hirax]

Man, this is a tough call, because a level 13 wizard would get 7th level spells, but if you're going to eventually hit 14, I'd say go:

sorcerer14//Human paragon1/paladin of tyranny or slaughter2/fighter2/ur-priest2/ruby knight vindicator7

Because dual progression prcs aren't allowed in gestalt, you're going to use the fighter feats to grab martial study twice to meet ruby knight vindicator's maneuver requirements. That way ruby knight vindicator won't be advancing any maneuver progression, and it will effectively not be dual progression. If your DM doesn't care feel free to sub the fighter levels for crusader levels, though.

Once you're level 14 you'll be able cast arcane spellsurge and arcane fusion, and then abuse divine impetus to break action economy wide open. You could cast 20 magic missiles (10 of them maximized) in a round, for instance.

[A_S]

Draconomicon actually has a Dragon Rider class. Can't remember if it sucks or not, but certainly fits the theme.

Also, one more vote to the full sorc casting one side, dragon-themed melee other side (if you want evil, can go with Blackguard instead of Paladin, or can do the Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny ACF). Sounds fun.

[herrhauptmann]

Draconomicon actually has a Dragon Rider class. Can't remember if it sucks or not, but certainly fits the theme.

Also, one more vote to the full sorc casting one side, dragon-themed melee other side (if you want evil, can go with Blackguard instead of Paladin, or can do the Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny ACF). Sounds fun.
Dragonrider
Good bab, fort, and will. 5 levels.
Improved maneuverability when flying (sorta nice for the clumsy ancient red)
Immune to frightful presence (when on or near dragon mount), good because you lose your fear immunity as paladin of slaughter/tyranny.
Bonus feats: Limited list, must meet prereqs.

Prereqs: Skill focus, and mounted combat. Diplo 4, Handle animal 4, Ride 8.
Dragon rider is a little meh I think. Could be much more awesome, considering it's based on riding dragons. And probably around the writers memories of "The Legend of Huma."

Zhent Skymage from Lords of Darkness pg102.
Prereqs: Combat casting, Iron will, Mounted casting.
Diplo 2, Handle Animal 2, Know:Geo 2, Ride 2, Scry 2 (it's 3.0, needs an update), Spellcraft 4.
Cast: Detect thoughts, invisibility, summon monster 3 or higher.
Gain:
Medium bab (I think. Progression is: 0,1,1,2,3) Good Fort.
Full casting advancement. Arcane or divine.
2 free scrolls of any level he can cast. If wizard, freely add them to spellbook at no charge.
Flying mount. HD must be <= Skymage level+Cha mod +1
Choice of Flying feats (limited list)
Skill focus.
Share spells, with mount.
Metamagic: Enlarge spell

[hex0]

Zhentarim skymage seems a better bet. Dragon Rider seems weak compared to taking just one level in Exemplar with Skill Focus: Ride! ...and skymage gives it to you for free.

Hexblade 4/Cleric 4
Hexblade 1/Prestige Paladin 1
Skymage 2/Prestige Paladin 2
Skymage 3/Prestige Paladin 1
Exemplar 1/Ruby Knight 1
Ruby knight 2/Hexblade 2

Nice?

[Little Brother]

I don't know if you can, but if you can with the right feats and all, go Supermount, making the dragon your supermount.

[herrhauptmann]

Hex0, I think the OP has restrictions on taking 2 PrC at the same time (standard rule). Glad though that someone else likes the skymage as much as I do.
Also, one side seems to have to stay single classed.

So...
Sorc X// Variant Evil Paladin 2 or 4 /Ranger 2 / barbarian 1/ Spellsword1/Abjurant Champ5/Skymage 5
Should be 16 bab by level 20.

**Paladin:
Slaughter or Tyranny. Lose immunity to fear oddly enough.
Maybe smiting arrow (DR 349)? Now smite as ranged attack within 30 feet. Not going to be doing much melee, but I bet he'd be doing a lot of rays. Perhaps Noncasting paladin? But that gets rid of a lot of wand/scroll usage that might come in handy.
Might as well take it to level 4 for turning. That'll power some devotion feats.

**Ranger:
Definitely Mounted combat style. DR326.
Perhaps distracting attack (PHB2) or solitary hunter (DR347)? Planar (UA)? Maybe all of them?

**Barbarian:
Spirit lion totem is obvious.
Dragon totem (UA): Thematic. Lose a lot, gain a bit.
Wolf totem(UA): If not going dragon, why not?

I'd actually suggest wizard over sorcerer, making skymage a lot nicer. But that takes away a little bit from all the Cha stuff that you get from paladin and skymage. Not that charisma will be terrible for this character, even as a dump stat. Though it does make Factotum a lot nicer for when you're out of PrC that look attractive.

OP:
Did I read that right? 21 sets of 4d6, take best 3 dice?
Bugger, how do you manage to have a freakin 15 in there with that method? Your dice must hate you.

[hex0]

I didn't think the Prestige Base Classes counted like that?

Needs more Cavalier, maybe? It is harder to make a dragon a supermount since it has its own agenda...

[DeAnno]

I'd emphasize the Sorcerer elements over everything else, and basically turn into a fighter-bomber. Either rods of Enlarge or a dip in Arcane Devotee will be very useful to give you more range to bomb from/tactically engage other fliers in this situation.

[hex0]

Revised:

Archivist 5/Duskblade 5
Skymage 5/Duskblade 5
Archivist 1/Exemplar 1
XXX 3/Duskblade 3


INT synergy and good spell selection from Skymage's bonus scrolls?

Full channeling of spells too.

[gbprime]

Gestalt, combat at range? You're right that a caster should be half the build, but might I recommend Arcane Archer for the other half?

[TroubleBrewing]

Gestalt, combat at range? You're right that a caster should be half the build, but might I recommend Arcane Archer for the other half?

But then he has to be an Elf... :smallfrown: It's times like this that make me wish this forum had a :smallvomit: icon...

[dspeyer]

Zhent Skymage from Lords of Darkness pg102.


Flying mount. HD must be <= Skymage level+Cha mod +1
Share spells, with mount.


Ancient red dragons have 34 hd. That probably prevents one from being your skymage mount, and therefore from sharing spells. Which is a shame, because that would be awesome.

[enderlord99]

Gestalt, combat at range? You're right that a caster should be half the build, but might I recommend Arcane Archer for the other half?

Of course...
...And might I recommend Monk?

Of course. That doesn't mean it makes sense to do so.:smallannoyed:

[TroubleBrewing]

Arcane Archer isn't terrible in gestalt, especially if you've got 34 hit dice of angry dragon under you, and full Sorc casting at your disposal.

It's just... Nobody wants to be an Elf.

[DeAnno]

Arcane Archer isn't terrible in gestalt, especially if you've got 34 hit dice of angry dragon under you, and full Sorc casting at your disposal.

It's just... Nobody wants to be an Elf.

But both you AND the Dragon would be immune to sleep! Seriously though, the engagement range you get out of Arcane Archer would probably be worth its weight in gold, especially since you could put random Cha base classes (Marshal, Pally, Battledancer) instead of Sorc during the levels AA gave casting.

[TroubleBrewing]

But both you AND the Dragon would be immune to sleep!

I laughed aloud at this. My coworkers are giving me strange looks thanks to you.


Seriously though, the engagement range you get out of Arcane Archer would probably be worth its weight in gold, especially since you could put random Cha base classes (Marshal, Pally, Battledancer) instead of Sorc during the levels AA gave casting.

Combine this with Cragtop Archer, for Truly Ludicrous Range!

[enderlord99]

Wait... Arcane Archer isn't weak?:smallconfused: I could have sworn...

[TroubleBrewing]

Wait... Arcane Archer isn't weak?:smallconfused: I could have sworn...

Oh, no, it's terrible. But in a gestalt game, with a massive dragon mount, it becomes weirdly viable.

[enderlord99]

Oh, no, it's terrible. But in a gestalt game, with a massive dragon mount, it becomes weirdly viable.

Ohh... Yeah, I get it now.:smallbiggrin:

[herrhauptmann]

Ancient red dragons have 34 hd. That probably prevents one from being your skymage mount, and therefore from sharing spells. Which is a shame, because that would be awesome.
Skymage was for some other bonuses, also for when the PC inevitably gets kicked out of the army or just loses his dragon. Now he can just go and scare something else into being his mount.
Not sure if skymage is better for a sorcerer, or a wizard. Sorc's have the high charisma for better mounts, but wizards get a total of 10 free spells in their book from the PrC.


I laughed aloud at this. My coworkers are giving me strange looks thanks to you.

Combine this with Cragtop Archer, for Truly Ludicrous Range!
Don't you have to be a goliath for Cragtop? If so, that'd require 3 levels in Stoneblessed:Goliath.

[DeAnno]

Wait... Arcane Archer isn't weak?:smallconfused: I could have sworn...

I would call it ... very situational. It does a couple things that are otherwise difficult or impossible to do, at the cost of five caster levels and being an Elf. A lot of 3.5e optimization ignores or doesn't really respect the value of extreme range.

[hex0]

Can you even be in melee range while on top of an Ancient Red Dragon?

[dspeyer]

A 13th level character and an ancient red dragon isn't really a balanced party short of planar shepherd cheese, but there are still ways to be useful.

Forget melee. Anything your dragon can't tear apart in half a round you won't be able to touch.

Mostly forget arcane. The dragon casts as a 15th level sorcerer. You can fill in some utility cracks, but it'll be pretty situational.

Mostly forget skills. The dragon can put 37 ranks in each of 13 class skills. Social skills might be worth investing in, for when you want to quietly and unobtrusively gather or deliver information.

Probably forget ranged. The dragon's breath does 20d10, and he can toss around fireballs with the best of them. Still, spells run out and the breath isn't every round. If you can find a way to do serious damage unlimited, it may be worth it. A warlock will probably be scratching paint. See if your DM will allow a magically enhanced ballista. It should fit on a gargantuan creature's back with no problem.

So that leaves...

Divine! The obvious missing thing from the list. Every dragon ought to be under a Sheltered Vitality spell to protect that vulnerable dexterity. And who doesn't appreciate a periodic Heal spell? If you take the dragon domain, you can get Greater Magic Fang, which should be useful. Plus, with bracelets of spell sharing, you can cast (un)righteous might on the dragon, and that stacks nicely with everything.

So at least one side should be full divine. Which full divine?

Cleric: the obvious, and generally a good choice. Can pick up unexpected spells on a day's notice. Can only cast GMF 1/day, though, so you can't give the full bonus to all the natural weapons unless you use wands or scrolls.
Spontaneous cleric (ua): loses unexpected power, solves GMF problem. Also means you can heal as much as you need to without precommitting your high-level slots to it.
Archivist: No spell-access problems. No turn undead.
Ur-priest: 8th level spells, if you can get your wisdom high enough. No domains unless you go contemplative (which is tricky, having renounced all gods, but maybe the dm will wave that prereq).
Druid: Still has most of the key spells, including GMF on the list natively. Generally a weaker list, though. Wildshape is wonderfully flexible, but doesn't really mesh with dragon-riding.


On the other side, look for buffs that stack with everything, like bardsong, white raven tactics and marshal auras.

[gbprime]

Oh, no, it's terrible. But in a gestalt game, with a massive dragon mount, it becomes weirdly viable.

Exactly. You're a full caster and full BAB character with no need to melee anyone, so thAt leaves range. A dip or more into arcane archer leverages both of these, allowing close range spells to go off at ranges well into Long instead, and giving range to spells with none at all.

And it's elf or half elf, yes. Why, is venerable dragon wrought kobold considered more normal? :smallconfused:

[Jack_Simth]

Wait... Arcane Archer isn't weak?:smallconfused: I could have sworn...Oh, it is.

However, like many terrible things, it has a number of things that are very useful in gestalt as a support for a 'primary side'.

A Sorcerer-13//[Variant] Paladin-3/Hexblade-3/Monk-2/Arcane Duelist-2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a)/Arcane Archer-3 is a surprisingly useful character... despite the little issue that Paladin, Hexblade, Monk, Arcane Duelist, and Arcane Archer are all, individually, terrible classes. They do, however, have various things that are useful to a Sorcerer - basically nothing that's worth losing a caster level, but the Gestalt build isn't losing any caster levels (note: Take Ascetic Mage!).

Edit: Oh yes: And as you're on an Ancient Red Dragon, focus on buff spells, for the most part.

[TroubleBrewing]

And it's elf or half elf, yes. Why, is venerable dragon wrought kobold considered more normal? :smallconfused:

No, Elves are just terrible. Even with the Cha hit, I would take Dwarf over Elf for a Sorcerer (and without access to RoS, to boot) any day of the week.

@Dspyer: This guy raises some really good points. You should listen to him.

[herrhauptmann]

Hmm, the OP hasn't posted since he started the thread, 2 days ago.

Wonder what he thinks of the work that's been put into this.

[StormTAG]

Hmm, the OP hasn't posted since he started the thread, 2 days ago.

Wonder what he thinks of the work that's been put into this.

Sorry about that! It's lots of good stuff! Though talking with the GM he mentioned that the Blackguard's fiendish servant bonuses could get applied to the dragon. I balked but didn't argue. So I ended up reworking it to be a save monkey with full cleric progression (Cleric 13 // PalOfTyr, OrdChamp, Blackguard) and now I'm actually building an entire evil party, so...

Blackguard 5 with 13 character levels gives the Ancient Red 4 more HD (making it a 38HD Wyrm), Share Spells (Righteous Might for a Clossal Wyrm?), etc.

Me the player knows this is likely preposterous and I probably won't be riding the dragon that often. Seriously, a 38HD Cleric Buffed Red Dragon can challenge gods. This is an Online PBP game and I just don't see that happening for too long.

[gbprime]

Seriously, a 38HD Cleric Buffed Red Dragon can challenge gods.

Maybe stupid ones. Any reasonably capable (Tier 2 and 3) 12th level party could take it down if they're prepared to face it.

And I bet you could get a dozen different ways to do it on this board if you asked. :smallamused:

[herrhauptmann]

And I bet you could get a dozen different ways to do it on this board if you asked. :smallamused:
With contests on who could take it down with the lowest level build.
I think Cindy or the Mailman sorcerer could do it by level 18.:smallyuk:

edit:
Stormtag, glad you're happy with the suggestions.
I look forward to hearing more about how this game works out. (Any plans on what the other characters will be?)

[Little Brother]

With contests on who could take it down with the lowest level build.
I think Cindy or the Mailman sorcerer could do it by level 18.:smallyuk:

edit:
Stormtag, glad you're happy with the suggestions.
I look forward to hearing more about how this game works out. (Any plans on what the other characters will be?)I can do it by level 5 without trying to hard.

[herrhauptmann]

I can do it by level 5 without trying to hard.

Without punpun?
If so, challenge accepted.

[Little Brother]

Without punpun?
If so, challenge accepted.Well, assuming I can win initiative. But anyone can do it by level five with initiative, anyways. And it's easy to optimize initiative.

Simple answer: Spectral Hand+Shivering Touch=Dead dragon. It's SR isn't a problem when it's so easy to ignore, touch attacks on dragons will almost definitely hit, and, if not, quicken a lesser one.

MY build, the same one I always go with, 'cuz it wrecks face. Ardent 1/Erudite 3/Cerebromancer 1
ACFs are Discipline(Magic) and Spell to Power, and I use the Magic Mantle.
Feats are Assume Supernatural Ability(Psionics) and Improved Initiative. Flaws can be used for Quicken and whatever.

Result? Dead dragon.

I have yet to find a challenge that general base can't beat.

[gbprime]

Simple answer: Spectral Hand+Shivering Touch=Dead dragon. It's SR isn't a problem when it's so easy to ignore, touch attacks on dragons will almost definitely hit, and, if not, quicken a lesser one.

No, it's not THAT easy. You can assume the dragon has cast scintillating scales, so it's touch Ac is 40. You have to dispel that first. And dispelling a caster level 15 when you're level 5 is pretty tough, especially when you're already blowing significant resources to ignore it's 30 SR.

[Little Brother]

No, it's not THAT easy. You can assume the dragon has cast scintillating scales, so it's touch Ac is 40. You have to dispel that first. And dispelling a caster level 15 when you're level 5 is pretty tough, especially when you're already blowing significant resources to ignore it's 30 SR.True Strike/Wraith Strike/Whatever it's called?

[gbprime]

Wraith strike won't help if their whole AC is touch already. True strike certainly will, but alone its not enough. Its easy for that 15th level caster of a dragon to bump his AC up to 48 or so, so even with +20 to one hit, you might miss at low levels.

No, you have to make sure that dragon doesn't have Scintillating Scales up, and then you have to have touch attacks that can bypass 30 SR. Otherwise the dragon might get to kill you...

[herrhauptmann]

Well, assuming I can win initiative. But anyone can do it by level five with initiative, anyways. And it's easy to optimize initiative.

Simple answer: Spectral Hand+Shivering Touch=Dead dragon. It's SR isn't a problem when it's so easy to ignore, touch attacks on dragons will almost definitely hit, and, if not, quicken a lesser one.

MY build, the same one I always go with, 'cuz it wrecks face. Ardent 1/Erudite 3/Cerebromancer 1
ACFs are Discipline(Magic) and Spell to Power, and I use the Magic Mantle.
Feats are Assume Supernatural Ability(Psionics) and Improved Initiative. Flaws can be used for Quicken and whatever.

Result? Dead dragon.

I have yet to find a challenge that general base can't beat.
Remember, we're discussing StormTags dragon here. So an ancient red, with buffs from the 13th level cleric on his back.

Hmmm, Shivering touch alone is 3d6. Average rolls will get you a 9. You need to empower that as well for a guaranteed dragon kill.
You need to be able to avoid his frightful presence: 300 feet. Will Save DC 34. Fortunately with 5 HD you'll only be shaken, rather than panicked.

Fortunately, you do have about even odds of beating his initiative. So long as the cleric rider hasn't buffed him.

[Little Brother]

Okay, 11 levels without a sweat, 9 levels if I try a little. Just ad Cerebromancer levels for taste. Also, note this is not Gestalt.

So, at level 11, I disjunct him, then Temporal Acceleration, and buff to taste, then proceed the smackdown as above, through Shapechange, or anything else, really.

Or, Temporal Acceleration, use Time Stop, Giant Size, Bite of the Wearbear, and Truestrike. Then a Shivering Touch will hit. He's vulnerable, I believe. Might as well have fun with Transcend Mortality and Pact of Return while we're at it, just in case.

Either way, dead dragon. With Str 56 with practiced manifester, and a pick, a coup-de-grace or two should kill it.

EDIT: You forget I can buff better than it can.

[DeAnno]

I dunno how you're casting 9th level arcane spells at level 11, but at that point youre twisting RAW so hard you might as well be Pun-Pun.

[Little Brother]

I dunno how you're casting 9th level arcane spells at level 11, but at that point youre twisting RAW so hard you might as well be Pun-Pun.Not at all. It's quite obvious. With the magic mantle, the Spell-to-Power Erudite qualifies for both sides of Cerebromancer. Favored Discipline gives me Magic at the same level as powers. It is quite within RAW and only one part, the getting both ACF, is outside of obvious RAI.

If you think THAT's twisting RAW hard, you have obviously not been hanging around here/BG long enough. Calling that PunPun? Really?:smallsigh:

[herrhauptmann]

Not at all. It's quite obvious. With the magic mantle, the Spell-to-Power Erudite qualifies for both sides of Cerebromancer. Favored Discipline gives me Magic at the same level as powers. It is quite within RAW and only one part, the getting both ACF, is outside of obvious RAI.

If you think THAT's twisting RAW hard, you have obviously not been hanging around here/BG long enough. Calling that PunPun? Really?:smallsigh:
So that gives you 6th level spells at 11th level I guess.
I think I've forgotten something in StP that lets you get 9th level spells/powers 6 levels sooner. So, what is it?

[DeAnno]

So that gives you 6th level spells at 11th level I guess.
I think I've forgotten something in StP that lets you get 9th level spells/powers 6 levels sooner. So, what is it?

He's claiming the magic mantle is letting him double advance his single casting class (two levels per one), since it lets Erudite qualify as Arcane casting for the purposes of +spellcasting levels. In my opinion it's clearly ridiculous TO which has no place in any sane argument, but YMMV.

[Little Brother]

So that gives you 6th level spells at 11th level I guess.
I think I've forgotten something in StP that lets you get 9th level spells/powers 6 levels sooner. So, what is it?No, it qualifies for both sides of Cerebromancer, so I'm using both sides of Cerebromancer. It never says different class, so yeah, I get double progression above level 4.

He's claiming the magic mantle is letting him double advance his single casting class (two levels per one), since it lets Erudite qualify as Arcane casting for the purposes of +spellcasting levels. In my opinion it's clearly ridiculous TO which has no place in any sane argument, but YMMV.Ridiculous? It's quite clear, and if we're killing a Great Wyrm at as low level as possible isn't a "normal conversation," it's an optimization challenge. That's what this is. I have sufficiently optimized. In fact, I could go lower level and kill the dragon, but I'm not seeing your problem, here.

[pwykersotz]

While I do love the glorious nature of the cheese involved, I have to say that the double progression doesn't work. Cerebremancer would advance you in one Manifesting class and one Arcane Casting class. The transparency doesn't make the Arcane Casting class equivalent to a Manifesting class, it means that effects that are generated by each can be treated equivalently.

The SRD quote: "The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency."

Classifications of Manifesting and Arcane Casting and Divine Casting don't fall into this category. Unless, that is, you have a very generous DM, but that would be houseruled.

Edit:
I forgot the second part of my argument. The magic mantle has this quote:

"In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical.
Therefore, powers such as dispel psionics work for both magic
and psionics. Most campaigns already treat them in this
manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where
they are considered different systems."

Again, not classifications of classes, but magic and psionics themselves. It refers to the standard of transparency in most campaigns. The "therefore" denotes an exact clarification, with no room for adding extra interpretations in.

[Tael]

{{scrubbed}} by my reading, StP Erudite doesn't qualify as an arcane spellcaster, as it's 'arcane spells' are actually powers.

{{scrubbed}}

[herrhauptmann]

No, it qualifies for both sides of Cerebromancer, so I'm using both sides of Cerebromancer. It never says different class, so yeah, I get double progression above level 4.
Ridiculous? It's quite clear, and if we're killing a Great Wyrm at as low level as possible isn't a "normal conversation," it's an optimization challenge. That's what this is. I have sufficiently optimized. In fact, I could go lower level and kill the dragon, but I'm not seeing your problem, here.
Hmmm, no, no I don't think that a prestige class grants you double advancement like that. Or perhaps, I don't believe that a single class can/should grant access to a double advancing PrC like that. If it some wording allows it, I'm surprised it hasn't been errata'd to nothing.

{{scrubbed}} by my reading, StP Erudite doesn't qualify as an arcane spellcaster, as it's 'arcane spells' are actually powers.
{{scrubbed}}

Well I did challenge little brother to make a build that could beat an ancient red dragon with a Level 13 gestalt cleric on his back. So that's the reason.
The isue is just that we're being given some absurd level of cheese to do it. The fact that I haven't seen use of the cerebremancer used in such a way in other builds, makes me think it's more than just rule abuse, but actual rule breaking.

Along the lines of an ultimate caster I wanted to make years back. Sorc/Wiz ultimate magus. Then levels in urpriest, and following that up with Mystic theurge, which advanced casting in urpriest and ultimate magus. :smalleek:
Eventually I figured out it couldn't work without a lot of homebrew/house rules.

[dspeyer]

Doesn't DMM(persist)ed Sheltered Vitality make Shivering Touch useless?

[Little Brother]

Hmmm, no, no I don't think that a prestige class grants you double advancement like that. Or perhaps, I don't believe that a single class can/should grant access to a double advancing PrC like that. If it some wording allows it, I'm surprised it hasn't been errata'd to nothing.It can, that's what matters, is it not? Against RAI? Almost definitely, but against RAW? No.


Well I did challenge little brother to make a build that could beat an ancient red dragon with a Level 13 gestalt cleric on his back. So that's the reason.
The isue is just that we're being given some absurd level of cheese to do it. The fact that I haven't seen use of the cerebremancer used in such a way in other builds, makes me think it's more than just rule abuse, but actual rule breaking. It only applies, by my reading, if you combine Ardent with the S2P Erudite. When was the last time you saw that?

In fact, Lycan made a post referencing this, before. I believe he titled it "The Spell-to-Power Erudite get's more broken?", though I'm not sure.

Also, it hasn't been done so it doesn't work?:smallconfused:


Along the lines of an ultimate caster I wanted to make years back. Sorc/Wiz ultimate magus. Then levels in urpriest, and following that up with Mystic theurge, which advanced casting in urpriest and ultimate magus. :smalleek:
Eventually I figured out it couldn't work without a lot of homebrew/house rules.That's completely different. You're trying to advance something that doesn't exist, I'm advancing something twice.

Doesn't DMM(persist)ed Sheltered Vitality make Shivering Touch useless?Then Disjuct him.

[dspeyer]

Then Disjuct him.

Unless you have a way to quicken that, it's their turn. The cleric reapplies the protection (not persisted, but still good enough). The dragon breathes.

Your turn again. You're back where you started. Except on fire.

Where by "on fire" I mean dead and crispy (it's 20d10 before buffs)

[herrhauptmann]

Also, it hasn't been done so it doesn't work?:smallconfused:

No, it's more of a "If it worked, it would get mentioned more often." Like the ultimate magus theurge urpriest I mentioned in my last post. Great combo, if it worked. But it doesn't.

edit:
Oh yes, and disjunction is a bad thing. It sets a precedent. Now the DM is more likely to use it on you.
Also, you still need to beat action economy. There's the dragon, and the 13th level cleric on his back. Whether you're using gestalt or not, it's still difficult.

[Little Brother]

Unless you have a way to quicken that, it's their turn. The cleric reapplies the protection (not persisted, but still good enough). The dragon breathes.

Your turn again. You're back where you started. Except on fire.

Where by "on fire" I mean dead and crispy (it's 20d10 before buffs)

Dude, I'm effectively a level 17 Wizard and Psion. This whole "Action Economy" thing means nothing to me. Readied actions with Time Stop should work, if nothing else does. Celerity, Synchronicity, everything. I also have any Arcane spells and any Psionic powers I want. For example, thanks to Shapechange, I'm a Dire Tortoise. Start with Time Stop, throw all the buffs I want on me, like, say, Giant's Size, Bite of the Wearbear, Delay Death, and Beastland Ferocity(I think it's called) and kill it in melee(It only has 616-ish HP, within easy reach with BoB after buffing), mailman it, Shivering Touch it, anything. If nothing else, Shapechange into an Emerald Legionnaire and tear it a part.

I am a high-level wizard, but better. Do we really need a turn-by-turn?

EDIT:
No, it's more of a "If it worked, it would get mentioned more often." Like the ultimate magus theurge urpriest I mentioned in my last post. Great combo, if it worked. But it doesn't.

But it does, show me how it wouldn't.

Remember, the magic mantle goes further than just enforcing transparency.

Also, the Nasty Gentleman was never thrown around before LoP, neither were the Twice-Betrayer and the Cheater(I think he made those). How about the Omnicificer? Just because it's never been done doesn't mean it doesn't work.

[herrhauptmann]

But it does, show me how it wouldn't.

Remember, the magic mantle goes further than just enforcing transparency.

Also, the Nasty Gentleman was never thrown around before LoP, neither were the Twice-Betrayer and the Cheater(I think he made those). How about the Omnicificer? Just because it's never been done doesn't mean it doesn't work.
Who/what is LoP?
Ok, of the 3 builds you mentioned, I've only heard of the Omnificer (maybe alternate build names?). And that, as an anti-punpun. On the off chance you're right, the original challenge did say 'no punpun,' but I should've said 'no punpun level of cheese.'
The fact that it hasn't been done means it's not likely to work, not now, when new 3.5 material halted over 3 years ago. No new developments means there's nothing new to discover. And as time goes on, a new discovery becomes less and less likely, as there's more and more people reviewing the same material trying to keep it new and interesting to themselves.
ex: More 3.5 books might've made a level 1 non-kobold non-paladin punpun possible. But since it hasn't been printed, I'll be real skeptical of a level 1 halfling commoner punpun.

Would a sorcerer with the feat arcane preparation count for Ultimate Magus? Get some double dipping there too, again have 9th level spells by 12 level.
If it was that simple to pump your CL through the roof, people wouldn't keep going dragonwrought kobold with spellhoard and loredrake.


Anyway, we're not going to convince each other. I'll respond to this discussion if a walking rules encyclopedia like Curmudgeon or Person_man jump in on this and say you're right.

edit:
The urpriest mystic theurge ultimate magus doesn't work as I wanted it to.
Sorc and wizard into ultimate magus, fine.
Enter ur priest, fine.
Enter mystic theurge: Fine if you advance sorc or wizard for your arcane. But you can't advance UM with mystic theurge. Reason being: The Ultimate Magus does NOT have its own spellcasting progression. Something that says "+1 existing arcane/divine/spontaneous casting class" does not qualify to get advanced by another PrC that says the same thing.
If you don't believe me on that, start a new thread asking about it, or search my thousand plus posts for the one where I tried to say the same thing and got corrected.

[Little Brother]

Who/what is LoP?
Ok, of the 3 builds you mentioned, I've only heard of the Omnificer (maybe alternate build names?). And that, as an anti-punpun. On the off chance you're right, the original challenge did say 'no punpun,' but I should've said 'no punpun level of cheese.'Lord of Procrastination.

And it isn't. That was in regard to your "point" that you've never seen it before, so it doesn't work.

The fact that it hasn't been done means it's not likely to work, not now, when new 3.5 material halted over 3 years ago. No new developments means there's nothing new to discover. And as time goes on, a new discovery becomes less and less likely, as there's more and more people reviewing the same material trying to keep it new and interesting to themselves.So? Unlikely doesn't mean it doesn't work. Prove it doesn't

ex: More 3.5 books might've made a level 1 non-kobold non-paladin punpun possible. But since it hasn't been printed, I'll be real skeptical of a level 1 halfling commoner punpun.Uh, you can become reptilian enough with a feat, so all you need is a high enough stat. I don't see why you couldn't. It'd require more work, but it's doable.


Would a sorcerer with the feat arcane preparation count for Ultimate Magus? Get some double dipping there too, again have 9th level spells by 12 level.No. The Sorcerer is a spontaneous class, the feat gives it the ability to prepare spells, but it is still not an prepared class, just as Alacritatious Cognition, or whatever it's called, lets wizards cast spontaneously, but they are still not spontaneous caster. Old idea.

If it was that simple to pump your CL through the roof, people wouldn't keep going dragonwrought kobold with spellhoard and loredrake.Because that doesn't work. The cerebremancer does.

Anyway, we're not going to convince each other. I'll respond to this discussion if a walking rules encyclopedia like Curmudgeon or Person_man jump in on this and say you're right.Okay, ask 'em.


edit:
The urpriest mystic theurge ultimate magus doesn't work as I wanted it to.
Sorc and wizard into ultimate magus, fine.
Enter ur priest, fine.
Enter mystic theurge: Fine if you advance sorc or wizard for your arcane. But you can't advance UM with mystic theurge. Reason being: The Ultimate Magus does NOT have its own spellcasting progression. Something that says "+1 existing arcane/divine/spontaneous casting class" does not qualify to get advanced by another PrC that says the same thing.
If you don't believe me on that, start a new thread asking about it, or search my thousand plus posts for the one where I tried to say the same thing and got corrected.I know, I said I know, it's old news. That idea's been around forever.

[Tael]

Le sigh. That was an infraction? Anyway,

You still haven't addressed pwykersotz's point: the Magic mantle only gives you standard transparency. And even if it didn't, the StP Erudite only gives you arcane spells in the form of Powers.

You might treat Psionics and Manifesting exactly the same, but Cerebremancer requires "The ability to cast 2nd Level Powers". Which you do not have. You have the ability to Manifest 2nd level powers which are exactly the same as spells, but you cannot cast anything.

The difference is just in the wording, but as we know, wording matters. Your point isn't helped by the fact that you do not accept a wizard with Alacritatious Cognition is not a spontaneous caster, meaning that you accept that the ability to functionally do something does not always qualify you for a PrC.

[gbprime]

Tael's right on this one, L'Bro. Having the ability to use power A to produce power B is not the same thing as having both powers A and B. You only have power A, it can just do more. You acknowledged as much with wizard and sorcerer in the previous post.

[Little Brother]

Tael's right on this one, L'Bro. Having the ability to use power A to produce power B is not the same thing as having both powers A and B. You only have power A, it can just do more. You acknowledged as much with wizard and sorcerer in the previous post.To quote:
In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical.
If magic=Psionics, then producing magic=producing psionics. Casting equals powers thanks to the magic mantle, the key part of the build that you guys are forgetting.

And, no, I didn't. A feat gives you the ability, where as the Magic Mantle affects the entire mechanic. One changes the entire mechanic of psionics, one changes how one class can change their readying/not readying.

You still haven't addressed pwykersotz's point: the Magic mantle only gives you standard transparency. And even if it didn't, the StP Erudite only gives you arcane spells in the form of Powers. The StP Erudite gives me spells in the form of powers, but the Magic Mantle makes the powers spells. It's more than transparency, it's not just transparency, it is specifically further.

And please reread my post. Alacritatious Cognition makes you a spontaneous caster, but it does not make your class a spontaneous class. Distinction,

[Tael]

To quote:
If magic=Psionics, then producing magic=producing psionics. Casting equals powers thanks to the magic mantle, the key part of the build that you guys are forgetting.

Nooo, I am not. I am disputing the fact that the magic mantle lets you treat 'manifesting' a specific class ability, as 'spellcasting', another specific class ability. It treats magic and psionics as being identical, but not only is that a sketchy interpretation of the ability, but even with your interpretation of it, it never changes your class features. It is not as simple as "producing magic=producing psionics", because PrC's require specific defined abilities, and you do not have the defined ability to Cast 2nd level spells.


And, no, I didn't. A feat gives you the ability, where as the Magic Mantle affects the entire mechanic. One changes the entire mechanic of psionics, one changes how one class can change their readying/not readying.
The StP Erudite gives me spells in the form of powers, but the Magic Mantle makes the powers spells. It's more than transparency, it's not just transparency, it is specifically further.
Again, you read this completely differently than we do. The text clarifies that it's talking about the psionics-magic transparency, it in no say specifically says that it goes further than that.



And please reread my post. Alacritatious Cognition makes you a spontaneous caster, but it does not make your class a spontaneous class. Distinction,

Distinction: Ability to manifest 2nd level spells as powers vs. Ability to cast 2nd level spells. An Ardent with the Magic Mantle does not cast spells.

[Little Brother]

Nooo, I am not. I am disputing the fact that the magic mantle lets you treat 'manifesting' a specific class ability, as 'spellcasting', another specific class ability. It treats magic and psionics as being identical, but not only is that a sketchy interpretation of the ability, but even with your interpretation of it, it never changes your class features. It is not as simple as "producing magic=producing psionics", because PrC's require specific defined abilities, and you do not have the defined ability to Cast 2nd level spells.Spellcasting is producing spells. Manifesting is producing powers.If magic is exactly equivalent to psionics, then casting is manifesting and vice-versa. The Erudite is there to provide actual spells to be cast.

Again, you read this completely differently than we do. The text clarifies that it's talking about the psionics-magic transparency, it in no say specifically says that it goes further than that.It says,
...You always treat magic and psionics as identical.It is specifically identical. 100% the same. Thus producing magic(spellcasting)=producing psionics(Manifesting).
Distinction: Ability to manifest 2nd level spells as powers vs. Ability to cast 2nd level spells. An Ardent with the Magic Mantle does not cast spells.As above. Manifesting=producing psionics, casting=producing magic. Magic=psionics. Therefore, Casting=manifesting. Therefore, manifesting spells=casting spells.

[JaronK]

I'd say the best route to being useful on the back of a dragon is to act as a buffing mechanism. Also, riding dragons is the perfect excuse for being a Kobold. So what about something with Bard (Dragonfire Inspiration, perhaps?) and Sorcerer? Use your Sorcerer spells to buff your dragon while inspiring your dragon as well, and go nuts. And every once in a while cut loose with a nice attack (crowd control, perhaps?) spell.

JaronK

[herrhauptmann]

Spellcasting is producing spells. Manifesting is producing powers.If magic is exactly equivalent to psionics, then casting is manifesting and vice-versa. The Erudite is there to provide actual spells to be cast.
It says, It is specifically identical. 100% the same. Thus producing magic(spellcasting)=producing psionics(Manifesting).As above. Manifesting=producing psionics, casting=producing magic. Magic=psionics. Therefore, Casting=manifesting. Therefore, manifesting spells=casting spells.

Transparency means that SR=PR. Save bonuses against spells, are also save bonuses against psi powers. Etc.
Manifesting != Casting.



JaronK
Are you tryng to make the OP into a dragonwrought kobold, so he's a dragon riding on the back of a dragon?

self scrubbed

[Little Brother]

Transparency means that SR=PR. Save bonuses against spells, are also save bonuses against psi powers. Etc.
Manifesting != Casting.Read it. The effect has nothing to do with transparency. It just says they are identical. Nothing more(Beyond UMD and other skill-related stuff).

[JaronK]

JaronK
Are you tryng to make the OP into a dragonwrought kobold, so he's a dragon riding on the back of a dragon?

self scrubbed

Yo dawg... actually I just wanted him to be a Kobold. He could be Dragonwrought if he needs that much power, but it's hardly necessary. Just throwing a nice Dragonfire Inspiration buff on the dragon and throwing out some Sorcerer action ought to be enough to be useful.

JaronK

[Tael]

Spellcasting is producing spells. Manifesting is producing powers.If magic is exactly equivalent to psionics, then casting is manifesting and vice-versa. The Erudite is there to provide actual spells to be cast.
This, and what the Magic Mantle does, are where we differ. You are using the colloquial definition of producing spells to mean Spellcasting. This is incorrect. The ability to cast spells is a specific class feature. Would a Wizard with the Magic Mantle be able to cast his spells with no ASF? No. Would he be able to make a Concentration check to conceal the visual or auditory effects of the spell? No. Would an Ardent with it be able to fuel his powers with spell slots? A lenient GM might say yes, but the RAW answer is No.



It says, It is specifically identical. 100% the same. Thus producing magic(spellcasting)=producing psionics(Manifesting).As above. Manifesting=producing psionics, casting=producing magic. Magic=psionics. Therefore, Casting=manifesting. Therefore, manifesting spells=casting spells.

It also clarifies that it is talking about transparency, and that most games already use this rule. Since there is no pure RAW effect of the Mantle, we have to think about what it might be intended to do. And as I pointed out before, even with your sketchy interpretation, Casting != Manifesting. Two different class abilities, with different mechanics. By your rules, a rogue with Minor Magic is a spellcaster, because he can produce arcane spells.

[Little Brother]

This, and what the Magic Mantle does, are where we differ. You are using the colloquial definition of producing spells to mean Spellcasting. This is incorrect. The ability to cast spells is a specific class feature. Would a Wizard with the Magic Mantle be able to cast his spells with no ASF? No. Would he be able to make a Concentration check to conceal the visual or auditory effects of the spell? No. Would an Ardent with it be able to fuel his powers with spell slots? A lenient GM might say yes, but the RAW answer is No. Read the PHB again. Spellcasting is not a class feature, casting spells is. That is the important distinction that you are missing. A wizard still would provoke ASF because he is still using somatic components. The Erudite doesn't because it still doesn't have somatic components. Could an ardent use spell slots? Obviously not. Spells=/=powers. Magic=psionics, but powers=/=spells. Powers do not have slots, and even if they did, the class of origin is different. That'd be like saying you could use a sorcerer slot on bard spells. Providing the spells in the first place is what the Erudite does, it provides spells. Please expand on the concentration check thing. Source, page? I am unfamiliar with that rule, it's never came up.

It also clarifies that it is talking about transparency, and that most games already use this rule.No, it says most games play with them being equivalent. It says nothing about transparency in the RULES themselves in the mantle. VERY important, as I've said.
Since there is no pure RAW effect of the Mantle, we have to think about what it might be intended to do.There is a VERY clear effect. The implications and extents of the effect, in the immensely long range, are unclear, but the base is very, and that is MAGIC=PSIONICS.
And as I pointed out before, even with your sketchy interpretation, Casting != Manifesting. Two different class abilities, with different mechanics. By your rules, a rogue with Minor Magic is a spellcaster, because he can produce arcane spells.Mechanics, yes. So? It is still [casting] spells. Systems have nothing to do with it, any more than the spell point system referenced in the Mind's Eye article and in UA is not magic.

[herrhauptmann]

Yo dawg... actually I just wanted him to be a Kobold. He could be Dragonwrought if he needs that much power, but it's hardly necessary. Just throwing a nice Dragonfire Inspiration buff on the dragon and throwing out some Sorcerer action ought to be enough to be useful.

JaronK

Ok.
I mean, it's cool if that's what he goes for. Not as awesome as a bear that rides bears (and everything else that comes from that idea), but still good.

Mostly, just everytime I see a suggestion for kobold, I think of a comic I saw (somewhere). "Screw the rules! I'm a kobold!"

[StormTAG]

Lots of interesting discussion. :)

I ended up having to back out of this game but I appreciate all the help none the less!

[herrhauptmann]

That's a shame, time constraints?