Warlock Optimization

[DocWoollybear]

Hi everyone. I've been reading the boards for a few months, and I finally decided to make an account because I need some help.

I'm playing in a 3.5 campaign that's going into epic levels soon. We are level 20, and our party has a Kineticist Psion (played by me), a Shadowcraft mage, and a Dragon Shaman. The Dragon Shaman's player feels like his character is underpowered and wants to reroll. He said he wanted to make a ranged blaster type character, so I suggested Warlock.

Right now I'm thinking warlock 16/ Hellfire Warlock3/ Binder 1 (for Naberius). Any suggestions for good invocations, gear, or PrCs I might have overlooked?

Sorry for the wall of text, and thanks in advance :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

In a party with a T1 and a T2, a T4 is going to feel out of place almost regardless of what you do. Some sort of Eldritch Glaive user could work for DPS though.

[kardar233]

That's a wall of text? More like a chest-high-wall of text...

See if you can convince your DM to allow Legacy Champion to progress Hellfire Warlock. You'll need it if you want to deal enough damage to be relevant.

[DocWoollybear]

Gah, proofreading error. I deleted a rather large paragraph before posting and didnt fix the last sentence :smalltongue:

Eldrich Glaive might work if I can convince him to go melee. What book is that in?
Idk if our DM will allow Legacy Champion or not, but he's been pretty permissive so far, and that sounds much more harmless than our mage's celerity fueled shenanigans

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You're a Keneticist and you're asking him to play a HFW blastalock? Dude, you can easily out-damage him, and damage is practically his only shtick.

If he likes the whole dragon theme, he could go Dragonfire Adept. Take Entangling Exhalation, and some of the debuff breaths, and he's a solid area-denial battlefield control and debuff specialist. He still gets the endurance of unlimited use invocations, but he's also got something to do other than what you can do, only less.

[Zagaroth]

ASk the DM to allow the following 2 simple changes, and the warlock will upgrade a lot.

1) Eldritch Blast is an Attack Action, allowing multiple blasts per attack with a full round action and a BaB of 6 or higher

2) AoE + Duration invocations, like Chill Tentacles and Wall of Perilous Flame, can be invoked as often as one likes and all continue to exist for normal duration, rather than only having 1 active at a time.

That last one is only game breaking against armies of low level mooks, who die anyway.

[MeeposFire]

Dragonfire adept would allow for a character of very similar flavor (inf act you could just "update" the character as a DFA). DFAs are area of effect controllers with a side of blasting (with breath weapons). They also get excellent skills and are tough to boot. They are better controllers than warlocks but they have a lower damage ceiling than a glaive or claw warlock. DFAs are in the Dragon Magic book.

[Saint GoH]

If your DM is fairly permissive towards homebrew shtuff, take a look at ErrantX's Ebon Initiate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163297). It's basically a T2 Warlock, which is a far cry from the near useless C.Arc Warlock.

With that he can pump STR and CHA and wade into melee and compete dps-wise, or go DEX and INT and be a ranged, invoking, sonofagun.

[Zagaroth]

DFA is a pretty good option too.

Heh, combine it with Dragon Born of Bahamut (which is retroactive, and the new class could be part of the rebirth) , select the breath weapon racial ability, and then you have 2 separate breath weapons. If you quicken one, the other is still available, letting you use 2 BW in the first round, OR use one each the first two rounds, and maybe one later in combat.

[Wyntonian]

It's basically a T2 Warlock, which is a far cry from the near useless C.Arc Warlock.

Umm.... They don't have the optimization potential of a wizard, but they're not exactly near useless. I'm not tying to start a big debate (there's other threads for that), but I just don't feel that that's too accurate.

[MeeposFire]

Umm.... They don't have the optimization potential of a wizard, but they're not exactly near useless. I'm not tying to start a big debate (there's other threads for that), but I just don't feel that that's too accurate.

It is not accurate unless you consider anything under tier 2 or 3 useless (most people don't share that view). In fact my experience has been that tiers 3+4 are very popular as a power level so useless seems to be hyperbole to me.

[Optimator]

Yeah... kineticists are pretty much the best blasters out there. The only thing that can compete is a metamagicked-out sorcerer, bbut that requires a lot of system mastery to bring about. Warlock is definitely not a good option if that is their desire.

[DoctorGlock]

Everyone's points stand, but that is not to say that warlock optimization is impossible

Warlock 4/Binder 1/Ur-Priest 2/Eldritch Disciple 10/Hellfire Warlock 3
Grab supernatural transformation of eldritch glaive and go to town as a standard action, otherwise travel devotion is your friend. This is probably upper T2, though you will be MAD

The legacy champion route works for massive damage, but epic warlock feats released in a web article are very helpful. One of them gives you shades at will. there is a dragon magazine feat that makes illusions 10% more real (i'll need to do some looking for specifics). you are almost a shadowcraft mage, bonus points if you can get the DM to allow your SLAs to count as spells for PrC requirements. With warlock crafting and item familiar you are almost a mini artificer, use it to your advantage until you cease to suck. Staff of wish and one charge + staff recharge from dragon magazine can help, especially since you get equivalent level spells at will. that and a wand of celerity should keep you in the game.

Use bloodlines to help ratchet up your CL a bit, all the builds need it (and getting high enough on the ur-priest results in blasphemy fun

demonbinder from underdark goes well with warlock, it gives a few nice toys they would not otherwise get, lesser drow qualifies, possibly with otherworldly to go fiend of possession. grab leadership and possess your minions. Someone on BG recently posted a warlock like that, stil not more than T3

[MeeposFire]

supernatural transformation does not work with eldritch blast as it is not actually an inherited ability. It is an acquired ability from a class despite the fluff.

[Psyren]

In a party with a T1 and a T2, a T4 is going to feel out of place almost regardless of what you do. Some sort of Eldritch Glaive user could work for DPS though.

Depends on optimization level/player skill, but assuming both of these are equal then this statement is accurate.

And yeah, Kineticists can literally blow Warlocks away.

[thompur]

Be sure to get a Greater Chasuble of Fell Power and a Warlock's Scepter.

[Randomguy]

Make sure you're set up for an epic warlock feat next level, found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) My personal favourite is the one that gives shades at will.

[thompur]

ASk the DM to allow the following 2 simple changes, and the warlock will upgrade a lot.

1) Eldritch Blast is an Attack Action, allowing multiple blasts per attack with a full round action and a BaB of 6 or higher

2) AoE + Duration invocations, like Chill Tentacles and Wall of Perilous Flame, can be invoked as often as one likes and all continue to exist for normal duration, rather than only having 1 active at a time.
Actually, there is no limit now, unless it's in an errata somewhere.
That last one is only game breaking against armies of low level mooks, who die anyway.

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[Zagaroth]

hrrrm, I could have sworn reading some sort of caveat some where about those. But never mind, I guess not. Excellent actually. That makes things much better

[Medic!]

Enlightened Spirit from complete mage might be worth looking into as well. It would add to his EB damage and give some special options vs undead/outsiders, and even a smidge of minor healing potential. You also get a flight invocation for free, an extra blast shape invocation, a free greater dispell magic invocation, and eventually a constant effect death ward.

It really looks like a shining warlock-booster in a gestalt setting, since the hellfire warlock progresses warlock invocations and EB damage, and the enlightened spirit straight up adds to EB damage, making it a great 2nd side to a warlock gestalt build.

[Randomguy]

The downside of enlightened spirit is that it doesn't increase your caster level, and you don't gain invocations the normal way for taking levels in that class.

[Psyren]

Enlightened Spirit is great for gestalt, but it's a colossal trap in normal play.

[Zagaroth]

Humm, if your DM allows one of the Versatile Spellcaster tricks, you can grab Eldritch Theurge with only a 1 level dip into sorcerer. Which is not a bad thing, as you can just keep taking it into epic levels, gaining more spells known to shove into your EB.

2 versions of the trick I can think of off hand

2-feat version: Mother Cyst + Versatile spellcaster. all spells from that feat are known, use first level spell slots to be able to cast a second level spell.

Feat + item version: Ring of Theurgy, from complete arcane. have some one cast a second level spell into it, so with VS you CAN cast that second level arcane spell. But don't do it until you reach ET level 3, or where you gain the ability to innately cast level 2 spells, so you become self supporting in the PrC at that time.

Ohh, research is good! Forget that, go Spellwurm, and it's hard to argue !

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150499 you still need versatile spellcaster though, and at third level

So Warlock3/sorc1/Eldritch Theurge 10/Binder1/Hellfire Warlock3/Warlock 2

And at Epic levels, keep progressing ET. When your level is high enough, grab Eldritch Sculptor, and as a Full Round Action, cast 2 Eldritch Blasts that each carry a spell load. :)