PCs estimating CR

[ClothedInVelvet]

I'm sure I've read something about this before, but I can't find it again.

What is a good method for PCs to get a feel for the challenge of the encounter? It makes sense that a PC should have a general feeling about the opposition (stronger, weaker, equal, etc.). Is there a skill check or a wisdom check or something?

What do you use?

[Big Fau]

The Sense Motive skill use in Complete Warrior.

[Kol Korran]

there are rules for that in the complete adventurer, under new uses for Sense motive.

i however use a somewhat alternate system, of knowledge skills, that enables the party to get a general idea of the CR of monsters they identify. templates complicate this however, and this does not include more powerful individuals (better stats), training (classes and feats) and/ or equipment. if you'll be interested i'll post it.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Here's some ideas if you want to suggest CR's for advanced enemies I think they work best if the players have a rough idea of alot of CR's to begin with though.

Arcana-a dragons size and the shade of it's scales should tell you it's age category. For individuals with class levels I could only think of identifying marks of well known dragons with well documented abilities. A contruct could have runes on it denoting as part of the special ritual that made an exceptional golem, magical beasts see animals.

Dungeoneering- Subtle differences in coloration with age, clothing denoting rank in races like illithids that have a civilization.

Geography, History, Local, Nobiliy Royalty- clothing denoting rank in military, orders, mages guild etc etc also recognizing famous individuals.

Nature-animals more lean and muscular or bulkier than normal, scars denoting numerous battles, types of fey, giant's and monstrous humanoids also the same kind of ranking learned from local etc.

Religion-Types of undead, also ranks of individuals in religious hierarchies.

Planes-Planar hierarchies and recognizing above average individuals.

Other means Detect magic if you think the subject cast spells on themselves will give you a rough estimate of caster level and detect alignment will ping the level of clerics, paladins and extra planars.

When all else fails have a truenamer see how hard it is to scry on it.

[deuxhero]

If you want to guess a human's out of combat, slaves are valued based on HD, so appraise can give HD on them (It still takes 15 mins)

[Coidzor]

I believe HD determines the base value of slaves to the Neogi(Lords of Madness), so there's appraise there as well potentially.
i however use a somewhat alternate system, of knowledge skills, that enables the party to get a general idea of the CR of monsters they identify. templates complicate this however, and this does not include more powerful individuals (better stats), training (classes and feats) and/ or equipment. if you'll be interested i'll post it.

Color me intrigued.

[Kol Korran]

Color me intrigued.

the idea is quite simple. each monster has a BASIC info DC of 10, 15, 20, 25, or 30 depending on rarity (NOT HD or CR!) this varies from world to world, and is fairly up to the DM. a general estimation is:
10- commoners might well know of them and met them. requires no knowledge (most humanoids, animals, and common magical beasts)
15- common known "monsters" that are fairly well known from common myth and folklore (i allow these to be identified untrained, if you make the DC). common giants, slightly weirder magical beats and monstrous humanoids, perhaps basic fiends, undead (skeletons, zombies, wights) and such.
20- requiring training, a bit more obscure to the common person, but should be known to the professionals and the studied people.
25- more obscure ones, found in strange lore.
30- really unknown and obscure creatures (not necessarily powerful!) the ones who makes you go "that's a ... what?"

templates or other combination have their own throw. for example- the ghost of a hill giant receives a 15 nature check, and 25 religion check.

the checks do not give knowledge of class levels (though equipment may be a hint) notice an elite monster (better stats), or alterations from the normal (such as grafts, special modifications by their creator and such) though again-there may be hints, that may lead to other knowledge checks.

if the character beats the DC, they learn the following: type of creature, 2 main abilities/ defenses (the more obvious first). this is in terms of description, not game statistics, and estimation of CR (i roll a 1d5, 3 being the correct CR, the others up to -2 and +2). this means that you don't automatically know everything there is to know about a monster just by beating their info DC.

every 5 above gives the character 2 more abilities, and the former gained abilities gains an estimate of damage or DC or more numerical info. the CR estimation goes to -1 to +1 for 5 above, and exact CR for 10 above. this gives players a reason to improve their skills. (we're not heavy optimizers who have come to know all about everything)

an important note should be that i alter quite a few monsters to fit my campaign and my concept of them better, mostly in terms of fluff, but also some crunch (you can check my Compendium link if you're interested), so knowledge checks are often useful. (though i don't make them a necessity)

the system has worked nicely so far, but then again- my players are mostly familiar with the iconic monsters.

[Ernir]

I used to use the CAdv rules, but I couldn't ever remember the table.

These days, I usually expand the "hunch" use of the Sense Motive (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/senseMotive.htm) skill instead. A DC 20 Sense Motive check then gives you a gut assessment of how dangerous someone is relative to you, using CR as the guideline. If someone is trying to give off a false image (appearing tougher or weaker), the DC is instead that opponent's Bluff check, and a failed check gives false information rather than no information.

[ClothedInVelvet]

The CAdv rule is what I was looking for, but there seem to be a number of good ideas here.

I'm basically trying to avoid the situation where my players sit around and guess what they're fighting. This group has been playing long enough now that I want to transition the group into a system where it's their characters interacting with the world, not them.

[Basket Burner]

The Complete Adventurer rules perform exactly none of their intended functions.

[missmvicious]

Well... everyone else has pretty much got this covered, but I'm awake and bored, so here's my 2 CP:

That's what Knowledge checks are for.

Generally speaking, if they encounter a monster I give them all chances to roll a Knowledge check (or two sometimes) on their turn in the initiative to find out what they know about the monster. If the monster was meant to be a skill challenge (bunch of level 2's encountering a venerable dragon) then role playing and the heavy use of theatrics usually drop the hint that they shouldn't try to pick a fight, at which point, I let them go crazy with the Knowledge checks.

In any case, one could size up an enemy pretty well just by looking at them, so before any checks are rolled, and even before initiative, I show them what they see by pulling out a pic online, or opening the page in the proper Monster Manual to give them a decent glimpse of the pictures.

In real combat, unless you've fought that person before many times, you won't know their "exact stats" or "CR" and the same should go for the game. They should have a rough idea that (no knowledge check needed), even at level one, they shouldn't be too worried about a Goblin or two, but even at level 10, should probably think twice about taking on a Corpse Tearer without some serious backup, and a hefty cache of magic items. That is, if you describe them well enough and show them a picture.