The Dwarfiest Dwarf

[Darth_Versity]

So im considering a character that is a dwarf like as can be. To do that I need to find the most dwarf like classes and PrCs available.

Currently I'm thinking

Dwarf Paragon 3/Fighter 2/Battlesmith 5/Dwarven Defender 10

Possibly try to fit Ollam in there instead of some DD and Cleric instead of Fighter.

Max ranks in craft Stonemasonry, Armorsmithing and Weaponsmithing

Using a War Hammer with a high STR, CON and WIS.

So what in your opinion is the Dwarfiest options for Classes, PrCs, Feats and skills?

[Greymane]

Dwarven Defender? Can you use ToB? Deepstone Sentinel is just as dwarfy and ten times better!

[Cheesegear]

Once upon a time I wrote this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6913898&postcount=62). Don't know whether or not it's what you're looking for, but my gaming circle found it hilarious.

[Darth_Versity]

Dwarven Defender? Can you use ToB? Deepstone Sentinel is just as dwarfy and ten times better!

But its not about the power, its about feel. And what could be more dwarven than a class that actually has Dwarven in it title?


Once upon a time I wrote this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6913898&postcount=62). Don't know whether or not it's what you're looking for, but my gaming circle found it hilarious.

Not exactly what I was talking about, but the idea of an australian dwarf that copies Steve Irwin is priceless.

[Frosty]

Needs more Stoneblessed? And maybe Bloodstorm Blade.

[BlackestOfMages]

but deepstone sentinels are more dwarfy in effect as well - they take their mountains with them! what could be more dwarfy than that :smalltongue:

and going that route also gets you access to the dwarven method of lock-picking, and real dwarf mining speed thanks to stone dragon :smallamused:

[Keneth]

Max ranks in grumpiness.

What do you mean that's not a skill? It is for a dwarf.

[Darrin]

I thought there was no way you can outdwarf Fistbeard Beardfist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6401766).

[herrhauptmann]

Fistbeard might be alittle much for some games...
Have you considered a dip into Deepwarden (RoS)? Level 7 entry as a fighter/dwf paragon is a little difficult, but delaying it a few levels shouldn't be an issue.

Use Endarires revised Stone Dragon discipline if you can.

[Zaq]

Ironsoul Forgemaster is very dwarfy, in my eyes.

[Piggy Knowles]

Seconding Deepwarden (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=4). It's my favorite quintessential dwarf class!

[missmvicious]

Don't forget to make him a Viking alcoholic who lives in a cave and speaks with a Scottish accent. (Look up "I'm just a Dwarf" and enjoy being amused.)

Make sure the first name has a lot of Bs Gs, and Rs in it, and the last name follows this pattern:
[natural material, weapon/armor that can be made from that material]
ex: Oakenshield, Ironhammer, Silverhelm, Stonemace (ok, that one is weird)

Or go for broke and just call him/her Dwarfy McDwarfdwarfface and make the character include the phrase, "By Moradin" in every other sentence.

A couple of good Dwarven characters I've read about in Forgotten Realms books were:

Bruenor Battlehamer
Pikel Bouldershoulder
Thibbledorf Pwent.

A friend of mine played a disgraced Dwarf (blames himself for being the last surviving member of his clan) who surrendered his name and took on his clan's name of Deepcutter. A running gag in many fantasy role-playing sessions a friend of mine has been in was a recurring grumpy old Dwarf known only as Grummelbuffin.

As for class... is anything more stereotypical that a Dwarven Fighter? Of course you could always PrC and become a Battlerager. Those are always good for a laugh.

[Tr011]

Go multiclass one level into Drunken Brawler (u need that Shou Disciple (Unapp East) on lvl 1 anyways for better barfight, a level of Barbarian with Lion Totem (CC) and that ACF from #349 for Improved Unarmed Strike fits anyway, and it's always good on a tank to get evasion, i.e. by two levels of Totemist). That's 5 level total, but with great benefits (extra damage and attack with Improvised Weapons, extra effects from drinking, Pounce, Rage, Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, Evasion and extra saves)

[prufock]

There is no chin under Dwarfbeard's beard. There is only another beard.

There must be some way to make him into nothing but a walking "beard elemental."

[Person_Man]

There's a nifty Dwarf or Gnome only feat in Dungeonscape called Undermountain Tactics. When you hit your enemy from higher ground (like when you’re mounted, or climb/fly above the enemy, or above them on a staircase), your enemy must make a Balance check or be knocked Prone or give up his next Move action. More importantly, when in a hallway/corridor/tunnel/etc with no empty spaces between you and the walls, you can block line of site so that your enemies can’t target your allies standing behind you (but not block your allies ability to target enemies in front of you). Very useful if you spend a lot of time in dungeons.

There's also the Dwarf only Hammer of Moradin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040305a) from Player's Guide to Faerun. The crunch isn't great, but the fluff is as dwarfy as you can get. I also have a homebrew fix for it somewhere with some additional Dwarfy abilities, if anyone is interested.

[ThiefInTheNight]

I have a gestalt Dwarfiest Dwarf build, assuming the idiotic no-PrC-on-both-sides rule is waived, that dual-progression PrCs are allowed if qualified for entirely on one side, a particular homebrew PrC is allowed, and Artificer is allowed to qualify for and be advanced by Runesmith (which it can't by RAW but shouldn't be hard to convince a reasonable DM of):

LN Dwarf Artificer 4/Warblade 1/Combat Artisan 10/Runesmith 5//Incarnate 5/Ironsoul Forgemaster 10/Deepstone Sentinel 5

Obviously there are a lot of caveats and addendums, but I'm a really big fan of the Dwarfiness. You're a stalwart and faithful warrior who crafts your own weapons and armor and infuses them with the spirits of your ancestors.

[Endarire]

Fistbeard Beardfist (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7835.0)

[Ravens_cry]

Oy vey.:smallsigh:
This topic seem to come up a lot, like Wizard verses Fighter threads, proposed 3.X "fixes" that either do nothing or make the wizard unplayable, creating the most unbearably bear like bear, or Paladin ethical/moral dilemmas.
Search Your Forums, You Know It To Be True.

[Weezer]

Oy vey.:smallsigh:
This topic seem to come up a lot, like Wizard verses Fighter threads, proposed 3.X "fixes" that either do nothing or make the wizard unplayable, creating the most unbearably bear like bear, or Paladin ethical/moral dilemmas.
Search Your Forums, You Know It To Be True.

It is interesting that the two fluff "extreme" build requests that come up over and over again are the dwarfiest dwarf and the beariest bear. Wonder why those two?

[Ravens_cry]

It is interesting that the two fluff "extreme" build requests that come up over and over again are the dwarfiest dwarf and the beariest bear. Wonder why those two?

Both are fuzzy creatures who live in caves?
Dwarfs don't look like they would be out of place in a Tom of Finland picture?

[Frosty]

Oy vey.:smallsigh:
This topic seem to come up a lot, like Wizard verses Fighter threads, proposed 3.X "fixes" that either do nothing or make the wizard unplayable, creating the most unbearably bear like bear, or Paladin ethical/moral dilemmas.
Search Your Forums, You Know It To Be True.
Don't forget that one time I managed to bring Monks, Grappling, and AMFs all into one (relevant) topic/discussion. All that was missing was ToB Tuesday and someone bashing psionics :smallwink:

[Seharvepernfan]

What I consider to be the most iconic "dwarf" build is: Crusader 17/Cleric 3

Crusaders do dwarven defender way better than dwarven defenders. If he takes Dwarf and Metal as his domains, that gives him free great fortitude and exotic/martial prof & focus with any hammer of his choice (maul is best).

Give him +5 heavy fortification full plate (or heavy plate or mountain plate) with that one ability from the eberron book that binds an earth elemental to it and gives it DR 5/- and meld with stone 1/day. Give him an adamantine maul and steadfast boots. You can't go wrong with a dwarven thrower either.

Divine feats work well, given a crusaders high charisma.

You probably won't have enough skill points for all the crafting unless you roll very high stats and can afford high intelligence.

Also, I don't really care too much for the PHB character names, but Tordek is the best dwarf name in my opinion.

[hex0]

Warblade 1/Dwarven Fighter 1/Dwarven Paragon 3/Deepwarden 2/Warblade 2/Deepstone Sentinel 10.

[Cieyrin]

Oy vey.:smallsigh:
This topic seem to come up a lot, like Wizard verses Fighter threads, proposed 3.X "fixes" that either do nothing or make the wizard unplayable, creating the most unbearably bear like bear, or Paladin ethical/moral dilemmas.
Search Your Forums, You Know It To Be True.

You act like the pursuit of true Dorfdom is not a noble one. :smallwink:

Also, you must not forget Fistbeard's brother: Fistbear Bearfist! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9111595&postcount=107)

[hex0]

Hammer of Moradin/Bloodstorm Blade combo?

[Darth_Versity]

Warblade 1/Dwarven Fighter 1/Dwarven Paragon 3/Deepwarden 2/Warblade 2/Deepstone Sentinel 10.

I always feel like ToB isn't very 'dwarf like'. While Deepstone Sentinal is a dwarf only class it just doesn't strike me as a very common thing amoung dwarfs. (and its only 5 lvls long BTW)


You act like the pursuit of true Dorfdom is not a noble one. :smallwink:

Here Here! :smallbiggrin:

[ThiefInTheNight]

I always feel like ToB isn't very 'dwarf like'.
How on earth not? Dwarves have always been stalwart, disciplined warriors, not raging brutes like Orcs. The Crusader and Warblade thus fits them to a T: warriors who are strong, but also smart and well-trained.

[Curious]

How on earth not? Dwarves have always been stalwart, disciplined warriors, not raging brutes like Orcs. The Crusader and Warblade thus fits them to a T: warriors who are strong, but also smart and well-trained.

Actually, the first image that comes to mind when I imagine a Dwarf warrior is-

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/home/images/newsletter/2008_07/DW-garagrim-ironfist.jpg

But maybe I play a little too much WFB. :smalltongue:

[herrhauptmann]

Actually, the first image that comes to mind when I imagine a Dwarf warrior is-

But maybe I play a little too much WFB. :smalltongue:

"WFB"??
I laugh at that dwarf. Anyone who fights often, knows not to have dangly bits that can be grabbed and ripped out. Even if overall damage is low (sliced nipple), it still hurts enough to surprise you for a moment. Besides, he looks more like a barbarian than a trained fighter.

[Curious]

"WFB"??
I laugh at that dwarf. Anyone who fights often, knows not to have dangly bits that can be grabbed and ripped out. Even if overall damage is low (sliced nipple), it still hurts enough to surprise you for a moment. Besides, he looks more like a barbarian than a trained fighter.

Warhammer Fantasy Battle. And to the best of my knowledge, the dangly bits being vulnerable is exactly as planned, seeing as he's a troll-slayer and thus wishes to die.

[Mo_the_Hawked]

Even thought it's a FR specific The Hammer of Moradin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040305a) is a sweet dwarven class.

[herrhauptmann]

Ahhh, I see.

[Darth_Versity]

How on earth not? Dwarves have always been stalwart, disciplined warriors, not raging brutes like Orcs. The Crusader and Warblade thus fits them to a T: warriors who are strong, but also smart and well-trained.

Exactly, a stalwart disciplined warrior is called a fighter. They can be taught their trade in large groups with a drill sergeant.

A unique warrior taught special abilities and secret ancient techniques is a Warblade of Crusader. I see them as more of a specialist so less likely among dwarfs.

Look at it this way. In an entire dwarf settlement of maybe 300 dwarfs, how many do you think have ToB levels? How many have a level or two of fighter?

[Eldan]

This thread has inspired me to apply the dwarfiest Dwarf (temporary name Dwarfy McDwarferson) to a level 30 gestalt game.

Currently, he's Crusader 11/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Battlesmith 5/Deepwarden 5/Bloodstorm Blade 5//Dwarf paragon 3/Cleric 6/Earth Dreamer 5/Hammer of Moradin 10/Contemplative 6.

[missmvicious]

New Homebrew:
Class: Dwarf
Race: Dwarf

Natural bonus to Perform: Dwarfing
Natural bonus to Craft: Any Dwarven Item.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: All Dwarven weapons and armor.

Can Praise Moradin once per day to gain a +2 to any attack, defense, Perform: Dwarfing check, or Craft: Any Dwarven Item check.

Can use foul language once per encounter, in combat to gain +1 temporary HP/level for the duration of the encounter. Counts as a free action.

Prerequisites:
Can not travel with an elf, unless doing so ironically or for comic relief.
Must purchase at least one drink every time you enter a settlement with an available tavern.
Bathing or acting in a way that can be misconstrued as "sissy behavior" causes you to lose one level (temporary effect only) and you take a -5 penalty to Intimidate (temporary effect only).
Cannot use Bluff. Dwarves don't have a bluff... test this at your own risk.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Exactly, a stalwart disciplined warrior is called a fighter. They can be taught their trade in large groups with a drill sergeant.

A unique warrior taught special abilities and secret ancient techniques is a Warblade of Crusader. I see them as more of a specialist so less likely among dwarfs.
On a conceptual/flavor level, Fighter and Warblade are identical, the Warblade just actually works.


Look at it this way. In an entire dwarf settlement of maybe 300 dwarfs, how many do you think have ToB levels? How many have a level or two of fighter?
I see Artificer, Cleric, Crusader, and Warblade levels to cover an enormous percentage of Dwarven PC class levels.

I don't see anyone ever wasting their time on Fighter levels unless they're absolutely desperate for feats, or someone decides to replace Warriors with Fighters.

[Seharvepernfan]

On a conceptual/flavor level, Fighter and Warblade are identical, the Warblade just actually works.


I see Artificer, Cleric, Crusader, and Warblade levels to cover an enormous percentage of Dwarven PC class levels.

I don't see anyone ever wasting their time on Fighter levels unless they're absolutely desperate for feats, or someone decides to replace Warriors with Fighters.

If by conceptual you mean crunch, then yes.

I agree with the classes, except I would replace warblade with fighter.

I replaced warriors with fighters for dwarves only in my campaigns (hobgoblins too, but only because a hobgoblin "commoner" is a warrior).

[herrhauptmann]

Don't forget to replace dwarven experts with dwarven paragon. (And since even a dwarven commoner is an expert in mining/smithing...)

[ThiefInTheNight]

If by conceptual you mean crunch, then yes.
Uhm, what? No, their crunch is very different; the Warblade is far more competent.

What I meant was, the abilities that the Warblade can use, the type of warrior that he is, matches what the Fighter should have been exactly. Yes, there's a certain level of talking about the "fluff of the crunch" here — we're looking at the abilities that the Warblade gets mechanically and discussing what kind of character they make him on a fluff level — and we're ignoring that hogwash in the Tome of Battle about the glory-hound stuff — but ultimately, especially at low levels, qualitative descriptions of Warblades and Fighters are extremely similar; it's only the quantitative crunch differences that make Warblade the superior choice.

[Ravens_cry]

A lot of Dwarf dwarvishness comes from Tolkien, but one aspect doesn't seem to have transferred to the muscle bound brooders they seem to have become today is toy making. If you read the Hobbit, this was in fact one of the major forms of trade of the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Exactly, a stalwart disciplined warrior is called a fighter. They can be taught their trade in large groups with a drill sergeant.

A unique warrior taught special abilities and secret ancient techniques is a Warblade of Crusader. I see them as more of a specialist so less likely among dwarfs.

Get the "Steel Wind is unique but Cleave isn't" idea out of your head, use this method.

Step 1. Warrior NPC class doesn't exist.

Step 2. Fighter is an NPC class named warrior. Paladin is an NPC class named holy warrior.

Step 3. Warblade is a PC class named fighter, crusader is a PC class named paladin.

Step 4. ????

Step 5. Profit!


My idea for a build? Crusader 1/cleric 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator (for Moradin) 10/crusader +5.

[Cieyrin]

Get the "Steel Wind is unique but Cleave isn't" idea out of your head, use this method.

Step 1. Warrior NPC class doesn't exist.

Step 2. Fighter is an NPC class named warrior. Paladin is an NPC class named holy warrior.

Step 3. Warblade is a PC class named fighter, crusader is a PC class named paladin.

Step 4. ????

Step 5. Profit!


My idea for a build? Crusader 1/cleric 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator (for Moradin) 10/crusader +5.

Paladin is far more workable than you give credit, between Battle Blessing, Sword of the Arcane Order, Smite to Song and Underdark Knight, not to mention Devoted Tracker Super Mount builds, etc. Not saying it's as powerful as Crusader but it still has neat things for it. Of course, that's a topic for a different thread than this one, so let's not expound on it.

Also, I don't think Windicator is very Dorfish at all, especially since you're adapting it away from Wee Jas to make it work. There's a distinct lack of Deepwarden in there as well. Ironsoul Forgemaster has far more dorfishness to it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Paladin is far more workable than you give credit, between Battle Blessing, Sword of the Arcane Order, Smite to Song and Underdark Knight, not to mention Devoted Tracker Super Mount builds, etc. Not saying it's as powerful as Crusader but it still has neat things for it. Of course, that's a topic for a different thread than this one, so let's not expound on it.
Adept is tier 4.

But yeah, I guess it could be a PC class, with Serenity, Battle Blessing, and a flying mount as basically the paladin's version of Natural Spell.

Also, I don't think Windicator is very Dorfish at all, especially since you're adapting it away from Wee Jas to make it work. There's a distinct lack of Deepwarden in there as well. Ironsoul Forgemaster has far more dorfishness to it.

It's the only way to get dual progression for crusader and cleric.

If no RKV, replace it with crusader or Deepwarden, and replace the cleric levels with either paladin with Serenity or crusader. Dump charisma, I don't care if your will save gets a bonus for high charisma, you add your wisdom to it first, don't get a penalty to wisdom, and add wisdom to all your saves.

If dead set on Forgemaster, replace cleric and RKV with incarnate and Forgemaster.

[Darth_Versity]

Get the "Steel Wind is unique but Cleave isn't" idea out of your head, use this method.

Step 1. Warrior NPC class doesn't exist.

Step 2. Fighter is an NPC class named warrior. Paladin is an NPC class named holy warrior.

Step 3. Warblade is a PC class named fighter, crusader is a PC class named paladin.

Step 4. ????

Step 5. Profit!

I dont really care for this line of thought, just because a Warblade is a better warrior mechanically does not mean that the Fighter is now not worth looking at. If that was the case then we may as well throw Samurai, Swashbucklers, Paladins, Monks and Ninjas out simply because ToB can do their job better than they can.

Hell, lets throw ToB classes out because the Druid can do everything they can do only better. Or how about the only class you can play is a druid, because with all the ACF's they can fill any role in the party and do it better than the original could!

Just because something is better doesn't make the old version worthless. Now i dont hate ToB, I'm a big fan of it and believe it really helped the melee department. But if every NPC warrior I ran into had Warblade levels i would have a hard time believing the setting unless it was an Oriental campaign.

I see nothing about ToB that suggest that the classes involved are nothing but a rarity in the world. While small groups may form they are not the norm. Not to mention the fact that all the fluff for Warblades points to them being chaotic in nature and Dwarfs are nearly always Lawful.

[Havelock]

ToB doesn't make the Fighter worthless. The Fighter was worthless from the day people learned how to play Wizards, Clerics and Druids effectively. ToB simply adds alternative ways to play the role the fighter fills without being worthless.

Yes, the full casters are still much better, but now it's only much better rather than ridiculously better.

[Darth_Versity]

ToB doesn't make the Fighter worthless. The Fighter was worthless from the day people learned how to play Wizards, Clerics and Druids effectively. ToB simply adds alternative ways to play the role the fighter fills without being worthless.

And by whose authority is the fighter worthless? Yours?

One of my players uses an elf fighter who has gone down the TWF tree. He loves his character and has great fun with it. He beats things up in melee and enjoys every moment of it.

I know that telling him to play a warblade would be more effective in combat. I know that THF is better than TWF. I know that elves are bad front liners. But none of that matters because he has fun with his character and I make a point as his DM to let him have that fun.

While I am a fan of theoretical optimisation, and I would never go out of my way to make a bad character (like a monk wis 8 wis and 10 dex) I do not believe you must always pick the best options in play. If I always picked the best options then I would always play Tier 1 classes.

As I said before, I love ToB, its a well thought out and well made book (which is a rarity from WotC). But it doesn't overide the classes its similar to.

[ThiefInTheNight]

I dont really care for this line of thought, just because a Warblade is a better warrior mechanically does not mean that the Fighter is now not worth looking at. If that was the case then we may as well throw Samurai, Swashbucklers, Paladins, Monks and Ninjas out simply because ToB can do their job better than they can.
No, I completely disagree.

All of those classes should have been thrown out the moment they were printed.

They were crap before Tome of Battle got printed. Tome of Battle just finally offered us some replacements that we'd been sorely lacking up until then.


Hell, lets throw ToB classes out because the Druid can do everything they can do only better. Or how about the only class you can play is a druid, because with all the ACF's they can fill any role in the party and do it better than the original could!
That's a red herring; the Druid is a very different class, mechanically. It does different things. It cannot fight well without turning into an animal (usually; with some effort I'm sure it could but that's besides the point). We're not talking about role, we're talking about concept. The Druid is a concept of a shapechanging spellcaster; it does not mesh well without enormous refluffing-verging-on-houserules to make it behave as a mundane warrior. The Warblade, on the other hand, does by default.


Just because something is better doesn't make the old version worthless. Now i dont hate ToB, I'm a big fan of it and believe it really helped the melee department. But if every NPC warrior I ran into had Warblade levels i would have a hard time believing the setting unless it was an Oriental campaign.
That... doesn't make any sense to me. There's absolutely nothing "Oriental" about the Crusader or the Warblade. None whatsoever. The Swordsage, sure, but then same for the Monk.

Fighter and Warblade fill the exact same conceptual niche: a well-trained, disciplined master-of-arms. Notice that the Warblade is actually better as the weapons-master, thanks to the Weapon Aptitude ability that Fighters clearly should have had to begin with.

Paladin and Crusader fill the exact same conceptual niche: a holy warrior, fighting for what he believes in and channeling the power of his faith to strengthen himself, protect his allies, and smite his foes.

Monk and Swordsage fill the exact same conceptual niche (or can; the Swordsage is a bit more versatile and can be built for niches that the Monk can't): a ascetic warrior, calm in battle, his entire body turned into a weapon, and learned in the mystic arts of war.

[QUOTE=Darth_Versity;12086973]I see nothing about ToB that suggest that the classes involved are nothing but a rarity in the world. While small groups may form they are not the norm. Not to mention the fact that all the fluff for Warblades points to them being chaotic in nature and Dwarfs are nearly always Lawful.
That's... not the description of them at all. The Warblade fluff describes some as glory-hounds, but that's no more required of a given Warblade than is a Sorcerer required to feel jealous of Duskblades. Further, they're described as students at a dojo — which, if the Temple of Reshar does not exist in your settings, you have to refluff anyway — and Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade are not prestige classes, but base classes. Anyone can become one.

Basically, all of your objections are impressions that somehow got into your head, but are not actually a part of the rules for these classes. You have this notion of how the book should be used that is really limiting yourself unnecessarily.

[Ravens_cry]

*sigh* Not this again.
You play what you want to play.
If it is fun to you, than it is fun.
That is the point of this game, to have fun.
For some, swinging a big piece of sharpened metal and running into smack something with it is fun.
That is enough.
So no, the Fighter is not worthless, not so long as someone wants to play one, for whatever reasons they may be.
Evidently, someone does.

[Cieyrin]

Adept is tier 4.

But yeah, I guess it could be a PC class, with Serenity, Battle Blessing, and a flying mount as basically the paladin's version of Natural Spell.

It's the only way to get dual progression for crusader and cleric.

If no RKV, replace it with crusader or Deepwarden, and replace the cleric levels with either paladin with Serenity or crusader. Dump charisma, I don't care if your will save gets a bonus for high charisma, you add your wisdom to it first, don't get a penalty to wisdom, and add wisdom to all your saves.

If dead set on Forgemaster, replace cleric and RKV with incarnate and Forgemaster.

All I'm saying is this exercise isn't for the pursuit of power, its for making the Dwarf's Dwarf. Something that builds off of the Dwarf's traits of endurance, stubbornness and enjoying a good ale. Yes, RKV is a powerful class but that's not the same thing. Putting a Dwarf into the position instead of a Human that would normally be there isn't making it dwarfy, it's just playing a short RKV.

Fistbeard Beardfist is a very Dorfy Dorf, combining elements that build upon what being a dwarf is about. A Dwarven Crusader/Deepwarden/Deepstone Sentinel is very Dorfy. A Dwarven Cleric/Stone Lord/Earthdreamer could be Dorfy, as it builds on classic dwarven piety and connection with the earth.

:durkon:Do ye get what I'm saying, lad? Ye must embrace your inner Dwarf! Drink of the Dwarven Ale and remember that thar is never such a thing as too much drink!

[Darth_Versity]

*sigh* Not this again.
You play what you want to play.
If it is fun to you, than it is fun.
That is the point of this game, to have fun.
For some, swinging a big piece of sharpened metal and running into smack something with it is fun.
That is enough.
So no, the Fighter is not worthless, not so long as someone wants to play one, for whatever reasons they may be.
Evidently, someone does.

This is pretty much my thinking. Just because someone dislikes the fighter enough to never want to touch it doesn't mean everyone has to. My objection is being told how to run my games like this

Get the "Steel Wind is unique but Cleave isn't" idea out of your head, use this method.

Step 1. Warrior NPC class doesn't exist.

Step 2. Fighter is an NPC class named warrior. Paladin is an NPC class named holy warrior.

Step 3. Warblade is a PC class named fighter, crusader is a PC class named paladin.

I enjoy my game with the fighter intact and the warblade as rare. It just helps make the PC who plays the warblade feel that much more special



No, I completely disagree.

All of those classes should have been thrown out the moment they were printed.

They were crap before Tome of Battle got printed. Tome of Battle just finally offered us some replacements that we'd been sorely lacking up until then.

Well I have to in turn disagree with you. The problem in the original printing was the Wizard, Cleric and Druid. They are the classes that needed to be scrapped and made new. The melee classes are the ones that keep in line with a good power requirement. Its the casters that break the game.

Thats not to say i'd get rid of casters, none of my players are big on optimisation so its not a problem, but I dont for a moment believe fighters are crap. Its just that wizards too good.


Fighter and Warblade fill the exact same conceptual niche: a well-trained, disciplined master-of-arms. Notice that the Warblade is actually better as the weapons-master, thanks to the Weapon Aptitude ability that Fighters clearly should have had to begin with.

So the Warblade is better than a fighter. I know that. I've already said that. They make a better fighter than the fighter does. But your point is that I must therefor discard the fighter and never touch it again because something else is superior.

Well I think that is my choice, no one elses. I'll have my fighter and enjoy it thank you. And i'll enjoy it right alongside my friends warblade that is better than me.



That's... not the description of them at all.

Oh, really?

Because of their independent and sometimes downright chaotic natures, many warblades refuse to join traditional, hierarchical organizations

I know its only fluff, so most people ignore it, but the fact that dwarves are mostly lawful is also fluff so my point still stands.


The Warblade fluff describes some as glory-hounds, but that's no more required of a given Warblade than is a Sorcerer required to feel jealous of Duskblades. Further, they're described as students at a dojo — which, if the Temple of Reshar does not exist in your settings, you have to refluff anyway — and Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade are not prestige classes, but base classes. Anyone can become one.

So Warblades are trained in dojo's. Very oriental sounding word. Almost as if its designed with a slightly oriental feel, don't you think?


Basically, all of your objections are impressions that somehow got into your head, but are not actually a part of the rules for these classes. You have this notion of how the book should be used that is really limiting yourself unnecessarily.

No, I dont see it that way. I see the fluff and think "What a great way to add the odd wandering specialist warrior that few people know about" rather than "What a way to replace the class I dont like."

I enjoy the way my game is played and enjoy playing it. I dont feel limited, but I do feel irritated that someone would suggest that me and my groups way of enjoying ourselves is wrong. I dont tell people how to play their games, please dont tell any tell me how to play mine.


But this is getting off topic, and its all because I said that the Warblade didn't feel very Dwarf like to me. In order to help people understand I offer this


The stoic, taciturn, clan-oriented mindset of dwarves isanathema to the free-thinking, brash, and individualist warblade. But even so, a surprising number of dwarves (often outcasts from their clans) choose to take up this path

Once again, its only fluff, but It makes my point. I don't think Warblades are very Dwarf-like and neither do the designers who made the Warblade.

[Cieyrin]

Once again, its only fluff, but It makes my point. I don't think Warblades are very Dwarf-like and neither do the designers who made the Warblade.

Fluff is mutable. If you don't think Dwarves make good Warblades, you are entitled to that opinion and no one can really say otherwise. Mechanically speaking, Warblades and Dwarves mix like peanut butter and chocolate, at least somewhat better than they do with Crusader, due to the Cha penalty and the synergy that's otherwise there. Not that that'll stop Dwarven Crusaders from existing despite, any less than there being Dwarven Fighters, Paladins and Clerics.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I enjoy my game with the fighter intact and the warblade as rare. It just helps make the PC who plays the warblade feel that much more special
Yes. Because the warblade is a PC class and the fighter should be an NPC class. Adepts and experts are okay options, with 2/3 spellcasting from a good list or the ability to have any skill as a class skill, but that doesn't make them PC classes.

Well I have to in turn disagree with you. The problem in the original printing was the Wizard, Cleric and Druid. They are the classes that needed to be scrapped and made new. The melee classes are the ones that keep in line with a good power requirement. Its the casters that break the game.
Fine, replace all tier 1, 2, and 3 caster classes and artificer with adept and magewright. That solves the problem of melee vs magic. But it's sad when an NPC class is just as good as a PC class, sometimes even slightly better.

Thats not to say i'd get rid of casters, none of my players are big on optimisation so its not a problem, but I dont for a moment believe fighters are crap. Its just that wizards too good.
Beguiler. Dread Necro. Bard. Barbarian even.



So the Warblade is better than a fighter. I know that. I've already said that. They make a better fighter than the fighter does. But your point is that I must therefor discard the fighter and never touch it again because something else is superior.
No. Fighter becomes an NPC class that replaces warrior. Warblade is the PC class and the special version. But we're making a special character, he has to be special.

Oh, really?


I know its only fluff, so most people ignore it, but the fact that dwarves are mostly lawful is also fluff so my point still stands.



So Warblades are trained in dojo's. Very oriental sounding word. Almost as if its designed with a slightly oriental feel, don't you think?



No, I dont see it that way. I see the fluff and think "What a great way to add the odd wandering specialist warrior that few people know about" rather than "What a way to replace the class I dont like."

I enjoy the way my game is played and enjoy playing it. I dont feel limited, but I do feel irritated that someone would suggest that me and my groups way of enjoying ourselves is wrong. I dont tell people how to play their games, please dont tell any tell me how to play mine.


But this is getting off topic, and its all because I said that the Warblade didn't feel very Dwarf like to me. In order to help people understand I offer this



Once again, its only fluff, but It makes my point. I don't think Warblades are very Dwarf-like and neither do the designers who made the Warblade.

ALRIGHT! Ignore the fluff for warblade! Go read the Stone Dragon fluff! And the Iron Heart fluff! Now go make a character based on that fluff instead!

If you still refuse to change to warblade, change to crusader. Now, he's a guy who's extremely durable, can deal some strong blows, and is good at tanking with Stone Dragon and Devoted Spirit, and is a good tactician with the occasional White Raven. Replace Dwarven Defender with Deepstone Sentinel, and now you're so dwarfy it starts manifesting as magical abilities!

[Darth_Versity]

Yes. Because the warblade is a PC class and the fighter should be an NPC class. Adepts and experts are okay options, with 2/3 spellcasting from a good list or the ability to have any skill as a class skill, but that doesn't make them PC classes.Fine, replace all tier 1, 2, and 3 caster classes and artificer with adept and magewright. That solves the problem of melee vs magic. But it's sad when an NPC class is just as good as a PC class, sometimes even slightly better.Beguiler. Dread Necro. Bard. Barbarian even.No. Fighter becomes an NPC class that replaces warrior. Warblade is the PC class and the special version. But we're making a special character, he has to be special.

Did you even read my post? I don't like random strangers telling me that the way I play is wrong and I must change to conform with their view of how the game should be played.

I don't want to turn the fighter into an NPC class. I don't want to limit options. I want my players to play what makes them happy.

I don't tell you how to play your game. The same as I wouldn't tell a gay man to sleep with women and I wouldn't tell a muslim to switch christianity. If it makes you happy go ahead. You do things your way and i'll do them mine.


ALRIGHT! Ignore the fluff for warblade! Go read the Stone Dragon fluff! And the Iron Heart fluff! Now go make a character based on that fluff instead!

If you still refuse to change to warblade, change to crusader. Now, he's a guy who's extremely durable, can deal some strong blows, and is good at tanking with Stone Dragon and Devoted Spirit, and is a good tactician with the occasional White Raven. Replace Dwarven Defender with Deepstone Sentinel, and now you're so dwarfy it starts manifesting as magical abilities!

I like my fluff. Fluff defines what a class and a race is. There are no rules that describe how to be a dwarf. The only thing that describes that is the fluff. And since this entire post is about what makes the best dwarf then without the fluff that you seem to hate so much we would have no idea what makes a dwarf a dwarf and thus would have no reason for this thread.

Now please stay on topic and talk about what the most dwarf like options are. If you cant even do that, stay out of the thread!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Did you even read my post? I don't like random strangers telling me that the way I play is wrong and I must change to conform with their view of how the game should be played.
If you don't want to argue with random strangers, get off the Internet.
I like my fluff. Fluff defines what a class and a race is. There are no rules that describe how to be a dwarf. The only thing that describes that is the fluff. And since this entire post is about what makes the best dwarf then without the fluff that you seem to hate so much we would have no idea what makes a dwarf a dwarf and thus would have no reason for this thread.

Now please stay on topic and talk about what the most dwarf like options are. If you cant even do that, stay out of the thread!

This should be more than just a combination of subpar classes. The mechanics help the fluff, but fluff is heavily mutable. The warblade can be a roman legionare or a Viking or a samurai just as easily as the fighter can, and it can do it better than the fighter can. How is fighter + Dwarven Defender more dwarf than crusader + Deepstone Sentinel?

And when did I get off topic? I'm arguing that warblade fits dwarf at least as well as fighter does, and crusader fits it better.

[JaronK]

By their fluff, dwarfs stand strong and become like immovable fortresses on the battlefield... and nothing gets past them. Dwarven Defender says this, but it doesn't do it... people just go around. Deepstone Sentinel actually does this, so it FEELS like a dwarf instead of just saying it's a dwarf. Don't tell me, show me, as my drama teacher used to say.

So yeah, I'd say Dwarf Paragon/Crusader/Deepwarden/Deepstone Sentinel. That's three dwarf only classes, and it actually functions like it should (holding the line indefinitely).

The only problem is the lack of ability to craft stuff effectively. Dunno how to fix that with a dwarf warrior build.

JaronK

[Ravens_cry]

Just put a point a level in a relevant craft skill and see if your DM will allow the Master Craftsmen (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/master-craftsman---final)feat and then take a Craft Magic Item feat.
Two feats is a heavy investment, but now you can make magic items by pure force of will and skill.

[Zonugal]

I always liked this approach to a Dwarven warrior.

Earth Dwarven Male (with the Mineral Warrior template) Wizard 4/Crusader 1/Runesmith 5. This is the ten level version and actually acts as the king of the Dwarves in my own campaign setting. He can cast well, tank fairly well, command/lead troops some-what well and by picking up the Final Blows feat from Savage Species he causes an Earthquake spell (CL 17) should he ever die.

A level 20 version of that same build would look something like:

Earth Dwarven Male (with the Mineral Warrior template) Wizard 4/Crusader 1/Runesmith 4/Crusader 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Wizard 3/Crusader 1/Runesmith 1.


The only problem is the lack of ability to craft stuff effectively. Dunno how to fix that with a dwarf warrior build.

Take a level or two in Battlesmith?

[herrhauptmann]

The only problem is the lack of ability to craft stuff effectively. Dunno how to fix that with a dwarf warrior build.

JaronK

Do you mean magical crafting as in wondrous items and arms+armor?
Or just being a highly skilled craftsman which all dwarves are supposed to be?
If it's the latter, look at dwarf paragon. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#dwarfParagon)
Full bab.
Skills include: Appraise (Int), Craft (Int)
Class ability: Craft expertise. Add your level to all craft checks made with metal/stone
Improved Stonecunning (extra +2). Boost to saves vs poison, spells and SLA. Boost to darkvision. Boost to CON. (hello deepwarden)

[Zonugal]

I love that an Earth Dwarf Dwarven Paragon 3 with a masterwork tool should be able to always craft a complex metal/stone item as well as masterwork weapons/armor.

[JaronK]

Do you mean magical crafting as in wondrous items and arms+armor?
Or just being a highly skilled craftsman which all dwarves are supposed to be?
If it's the latter, look at dwarf paragon. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#dwarfParagon)

You realize I just suggested Dwarf Paragon, right? And that I just suggested Deepwarden?

But the fact is, mundane craft checks take years to complete, so without Fabricate you can't just make useful stuff. And magic items are unavailable to a non casting build for the most part (though Battlesmith is an idea).

JaronK

[herrhauptmann]

*facepalm*
Only saw the end part of your post...
But you're not the first the person to mention those either, check the first page.

[Cieyrin]

But the fact is, mundane craft checks take years to complete, so without Fabricate you can't just make useful stuff. And magic items are unavailable to a non casting build for the most part (though Battlesmith is an idea).

JaronK

That's a rather large exaggeration on craft times, as, unless you're achieving the bare minimum to forge stuff, you should be Quickening Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#quickCreation) as your bonus goes up, especially if you focus on crafting (masterwork tools, Skill Focus, high Int, Magic Forges from RoS, Hammer of the Magesmith, Exemplar).

Let's take an arbitrary DC of 40 and say you take 10 with a +30 bonus, so that's 160 gp of work a week. That makes most any weapon in a week, add 2 if you want to masterwork, +2 more if dwarvencraft. A little over a month is not years. And that's only if you want to make something nice and that's also rather holding back on the bonus achievable.

It gets messier with special materials but even adamantine just makes it take another 2 weeks, which makes sense given it's an 'ultrahard' metal and thus difficult to work with. It makes some nice stuff in the end, certainly, but if you expect it at the snap of your fingers, you're going to be sadly disappointed. There aren't Adamantine Dwarvencraft Battle Plate lying around everywhere, which is part of the cost since it is hard to make. Not to mention that wizards tend to have better things to do than sit around Fabricating to flood the market, as well as the fact that mid-level wizards aren't exactly common. Hence why we still have blacksmiths with levels in Expert about, though I'm sure a few are Magewrights these days. :smallwink:

[Nachtritter]

Make him a dwarf monk who uses his beard as a weapon.

NONE BEARDIER.

[Cieyrin]

Make him a dwarf monk who uses his beard as a weapon.

NONE BEARDIER.

Fistbeard Beardfist was already linked doing exactly that in the first page. :smallwink: Yay, Kensai for enchanting your beard! :smallbiggrin:

[Nachtritter]

Fistbeard Beardfist was already linked doing exactly that in the first page. :smallwink: Yay, Kensai for enchanting your beard! :smallbiggrin:

Well... maybe I'll go home and reevaluate my life, then.

[JaronK]

That's a rather large exaggeration on craft times, as, unless you're achieving the bare minimum to forge stuff, you should be Quickening Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#quickCreation) as your bonus goes up, especially if you focus on crafting (masterwork tools, Skill Focus, high Int, Magic Forges from RoS, Hammer of the Magesmith, Exemplar).

Seriously? You're investing Skill Focus and having to buy Forges? You could just buy all the items for much cheaper than the initial investment you're putting into this.


Let's take an arbitrary DC of 40 and say you take 10 with a +30 bonus, so that's 160 gp of work a week. That makes most any weapon in a week, add 2 if you want to masterwork, +2 more if dwarvencraft. A little over a month is not years. And that's only if you want to make something nice and that's also rather holding back on the bonus achievable.

Now try to get a good Craft score without investing character levels, feats and more gp than the crafting savings into it. Certainly, by the level you're talking about where you'd have a +30 (post Exemplar levels, so it must at least be level 11) nobody cares about getting a single masterwork weapon. And four weeks for a Dwarvencraft weapon at this level? Insane when you can adventure for 10X the value of that weapon in a few hours.

Meanwhile, if you want to make something actually worthwhile at this level (read: an item worth enchanting), it's going to be something like a Dwarvencraft Quality Adamantine Dwarven Warpike (fitting the theme here) or a Dwarvencraft Quality Susalian Chainweave Oearthblood Mithral Mechanicus Gear suit. Those really would take years to build.


It gets messier with special materials but even adamantine just makes it take another 2 weeks,

At 160gp a week, how does Adamantine take 2 weeks?

The fact is, for it to be worthwhile to craft mundane items at high levels you need Fabricate. There's just no other way around the insane amount of time.

JaronK