Prestige class for a CG Archivist [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Mafic

2011-10-21, 01:13 PM

So I'm playing a CG Archivist Uldra who worships Auril. I'm currently level 7 but cannot for the life of me find a good prestige class for him. There's an unclear part of the prereqs, and that is some of them say you're required to be able to cast level X arcane spells. Well the thing is that Archivists CAN cast them once learned, however I have yet to be able to find one and I'm unsure if this disqualifies me for those classes. Anybody have some clarification on this?

Psyren

2011-10-21, 01:16 PM

Keld Denar

2011-10-21, 01:27 PM

Take Archivist to 11. The 11th level ability to stun or daze folks as a move action is pretty freakin intense. From there, Sacred Exorcist isn't a bad choice to pick up Turn Undead to power various divine feats like Divine Metamagic or Divine Spell Power or Divine Defiance (immediate action COUNTERSPELL).

Psyren

2011-10-21, 01:28 PM

Another option is to boost your lore-monkey aspect. Paragnostic Apostle and Loremaster are great for this, as both give you Bardic Knowledge.

Mafic

2011-10-21, 02:05 PM

Archivist spells are divine, not arcane. You can get into any class that requires divine casting, a divine caster level, or an unspecified caster level.

Isn't Auril evil? Not that the two-step rule applies to an Archivist, but I can't imagine why you'd be following her even if you can game Faerun's system.

Yes I realize the spells are divine, however if you read the part in HoH that cover's the Archivist's spellbook it states that they can learn arcane spells alongside their divine ones(since you must acquire your spells).

And it's not a straight Faerun system but some of the gods are borrowed, the reason I'm CG is because of a randomized booby trap in a dungeon that could change all sorts of things like race, gender, memories, and alignments. Everything of mine has been restored except for my alignment.

Psyren

2011-10-21, 02:36 PM

Yes I realize the spells are divine, however if you read the part in HoH that cover's the Archivist's spellbook it states that they can learn arcane spells alongside their divine ones(since you must acquire you're spells).

I assume you're referring to the "combo scroll" trick, i.e. learning arcane spells from a scroll "containing divine spells," right?

Thing is, RAW lets you scribe arcane spells, but not prepare them (and therefore not cast them.) Thus you fail any requirement that says "must be able to cast X-level arcane spells."

HoH pg. 83:
"The archivist can learn and thus prepare nonclerical divine spells in this fashion."

Mafic

2011-10-21, 02:45 PM

I assume you're referring to the "combo scroll" trick, i.e. learning arcane spells from a scroll "containing divine spells," right?

Thing is, RAW lets you scribe arcane spells, but not prepare them (and therefore not cast them.) Thus you fail any requirement that says "must be able to cast X-level arcane spells."

HoH pg. 83:
"The archivist can learn and thus prepare nonclerical divine spells in this fashion."

Gotcha, thanks for that clarification. I think I'll end up going a few levels into Corrupt Avenger which is convenient considering my last fight left me moderately tainted, then go Mystic Theurge.

Keld Denar

2011-10-21, 03:31 PM

I still think you should take Archivist staight to 11 to get the stun/daze ability. Thats like, the capstone of the class. Gives you something REALLY useful to do with your move action.

Mafic

2011-10-21, 04:03 PM

I still think you should take Archivist staight to 11 to get the stun/daze ability. Thats like, the capstone of the class. Gives you something REALLY useful to do with your move action.

The thing is I don't know if it's justifiable for 4 entire levels. I mean it would certainly be useful but that quite a bit of xp to sacrifice. Plus I feel like it would limit my prestige class options even more.

Psyren

2011-10-21, 04:10 PM

"Sacrifice?" For those 4 extra levels of Archivist you're not giving up a thing - you still get spells known, caster level, and class features.

As for PrCs, I already gave you a great choice (Paragnostic Apostle) that can still fit in your build and give full benefits.

Mafic

2011-10-21, 04:28 PM

Well if I go that route I will end up forfeiting the corrupt avenger/mystic theurge path which can get extremely powerful. I guess I'd say its close to even.

I took a look at the Paragnostic Apostle and while it looks like it could be very powerful I'm pretty much the only castor type in my group. We have a warlock but he insists on running into combat. I guess with a 4 level time spread I could probably tweak my character for a different one though.

Little Brother

2011-10-21, 04:45 PM

Pretty sure you can "help" a caster scribe a scroll, thus making any Arcane spell a divine scroll, which you then learn. Not sure, don't remember where it's from, but whatever, my two CP.

Psyren

2011-10-21, 04:48 PM

If you're the only caster, all the more reason for you to pump your Knowledge checks as it's unlikely that the others will have the necessary skills - especially since you'll be doing it anyway for your other Dark Knowledge uses. So grabbing Bardic Knowledge on top of that will make you the party know-it-all that can identify every monster the DM throws at the group (and its weaknesses), always make sure the campaign can progress, find the BBEG's hiding place or the long-lost cache of relics needed to fight him etc.

And Dread Secret is very, very useful. In most battles you won't need to move beyond your original positioning, resulting in your move action getting wasted. With DS, not only do you get mileage out of this neglected resource, you also help the entire party too. And unlike most status effects, it explicitly works on undead. AND it ignores SR, has no save, works in AMF... it's insanely powerful.

Pretty sure you can "help" a caster scribe a scroll, thus making any Arcane spell a divine scroll, which you then learn. Not sure, don't remember where it's from, but whatever, my two CP.

Indeed - you can also learn arcane spells that are included on divine scrolls. But you cannot prepare them, and therefore you cannot cast them. The scrolls may be divine, but the spells themselves never are.

Keld Denar

2011-10-21, 05:06 PM

Psyren

2011-10-21, 05:14 PM

Most of the good arcane spells are available from domains and variant divine classes anyway. And best of all - you have a warlock in the party. Cooperate with him and craft every Divine Bard, Trapsmith, Paladin of Tyranny, Adept, Shugenja etc. spell you could ever want. You'll be a Mystic Theurge with class features.

Treblain

2011-10-21, 09:51 PM

Cooperate with him and craft every Divine Bard, Trapsmith, Paladin of Tyranny, Adept, Shugenja etc. spell you could ever want.

Trapsmith is arcane, IIRC.

Psyren

2011-10-22, 06:41 AM

Trapsmith is arcane, IIRC.

Details, details :smalltongue:

Tokuhara

2011-10-22, 07:25 AM

While less powerful than what was given, I like this option.

Archivist 3/Walker in the Waste 10/Contemplative 3/Divine Oracle 4

For your Alignment-based. As above: Stick to casting.

Archivist 11/Sacred Exorcist 1/Prestige Paladin of Freedom 2/Paragonistic Apostle 5/Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 1

hex0

2011-10-22, 07:42 AM

Archivist 11/Sacred Exorcist 1/Prestige Paladin of Freedom 2/Paragonistic Apostle 5/Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 1

Sounds decent. Don't know if the character actually has decent CHA though. And the Archivist can already get tasty Paladin and Ranger spells for their list.

Loremaster may be better, and I'd take Divine Oracle 2 after level 11 for super evasion...

Psyren

2011-10-22, 07:43 AM

Archivist 11/Sacred Exorcist 1/Prestige Paladin of Freedom 2/Paragonistic Apostle 5/Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 1

Love this build :thumbsup:

Leon

2011-10-22, 07:48 AM

The thing is I don't know if it's justifiable for 4 entire levels. I mean it would certainly be useful but that quite a bit of xp to sacrifice. Plus I feel like it would limit my prestige class options even more.

Its more justifiable to keep going with the main class rather than try to shoehorn into a PrC when you are unsure really of what PrC you want.

Paranostic Apostle is a Good PrC for a Knowledgeable Character.

Tokuhara

2011-10-22, 07:54 AM

Sounds decent. Don't know if the character actually has decent CHA though. And the Archivist can already get tasty Paladin and Ranger spells for their list.

Loremaster may be better, and I'd take Divine Oracle 2 after level 11 for super evasion...

I chose Prestige Paladin to give him the class features of Paladin 5 at 1 lost caster level. And even with a +1 bonus of charisma, It's +1 he didn't have.

Contemplative and Divine Oracle are only there to give their Domains. That's all

hex0

2011-10-22, 07:57 AM

I chose Prestige Paladin to give him the class features of Paladin 5 at 1 lost caster level. And even with a +1 bonus of charisma, It's +1 he didn't have.

Contemplative and Divine Oracle are only there to give their Domains. That's all

Domains aren't that great for Favored Souls and even less so for Archivists...

Tokuhara

2011-10-22, 08:06 AM

Domains aren't that great for Favored Souls and even less so for Archivists...

Domain Abilities. Some are worth it.

Mafic

2011-10-24, 10:33 AM

Corrupt Avenger + Mystic Theurge is not worth it. You'll end up losing a whole spell level at least to get in. Spells power is exponential, with each level of spells being more or less twice as potent as the level before it. You're sacrificing one off your top end for a bunch of 1st - 4th level spells...not worth it.

Dread Secret is pretty much amazing. Stick to full casting. Stick to Dread Secret.

Archivist is different from most casters in that it actually HAS class abilities. If you were playing a Wizard/Cleric, I'd say YES! PRC OUT IMMEDIATELY. Archivist, not so much.

You made good points and I'll plan to follow Archivist to 11(probably 12 for the extra DK per day) but this sticks out to me. If you look at bass abilities like "Cure wounds" it's a steady increase all the way up with the exception of the jump to Mass cure moderate.

Mafic

2011-10-24, 10:54 AM

Domain Abilities. Some are worth it.

The one combo I found intriguing was the Storm of Vengence after casting a Magic Circle of *blank* on myself. Gives me a little extra level to keep me casting.

Keld Denar

2011-10-24, 10:58 AM

What do you mean by 1/2 spell class? Archivist is a full caster, just the same as a wizard or cleric. +1 spellcaster level means just that...plus one level as if you had leveled up in the base class. Thus, an Archivist 11 who takes a level in Sacred Exorcist (+1 spellcaster level) would cast spells the same as an Archivist 12. It doesn't give you the next level higher of spells, only spells as if you were an Archivist of the next higher level. Thus, if you were an Archivist 11, you could cast 6th level spells. If you wanted 7th level spells, you'd need 2 more levels of Archivist, or 2 more levels of a PrC that offered +1 spellcaster level. Its the same amount of effort.

Unless you are talking about something else, at which point you need to clarify your question.

As far as spell levels and their relative power, you can't just look at similar spells, especially underpowered ones like Cure X Wounds. You have to look at the magnitude of the good spells. Solid Fog is WAY better than Web, which is WAY better than Grease, for example. Each spell level unlocks new power. Going from 6 to 7 and getting Divine Power is amazing, almost game changing. Going from 10 to 11 and unlocking Heal is crazy. Etc.

Psyren

2011-10-24, 11:17 AM

The one combo I found intriguing was the Storm of Vengence after casting a Magic Circle of *blank* on myself. Gives me a little extra level to keep me casting.

Storm of Vengeance is often more trouble than it's worth. You have to concentrate to keep it going, which eats up your actions, and ceasing concentration or failing a check ends the whole thing immediately. It takes 5 rounds to get into full swing, and even then it doesn't do that much damage. Perhaps worst of all, it screws up all the casting in the area, and nothing in the spell indicates that you (or your party) are safe from its effects. Not only are you making Concentration checks from the acid and hailstones and what have you, you're also subject to concentration checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm) for the weather itself.

I'm not sure how Magic Circle against X would protect you from any of that, as SoV isn't aligned.

Mafic

2011-10-24, 01:38 PM

Storm of Vengeance is often more trouble than it's worth. You have to concentrate to keep it going, which eats up your actions, and ceasing concentration or failing a check ends the whole thing immediately. It takes 5 rounds to get into full swing, and even then it doesn't do that much damage. Perhaps worst of all, it screws up all the casting in the area, and nothing in the spell indicates that you (or your party) are safe from its effects. Not only are you making Concentration checks from the acid and hailstones and what have you, you're also subject to concentration checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm) for the weather itself.

I'm not sure how Magic Circle against X would protect you from any of that, as SoV isn't aligned.

I was referring more so to the fact that I wouldn't be subject to negatives for casting defensively etc as I could keep melee characters at bay.

Mafic

2011-10-24, 01:46 PM

What do you mean by 1/2 spell class? Archivist is a full caster, just the same as a wizard or cleric. +1 spellcaster level means just that...plus one level as if you had leveled up in the base class. Thus, an Archivist 11 who takes a level in Sacred Exorcist (+1 spellcaster level) would cast spells the same as an Archivist 12. It doesn't give you the next level higher of spells, only spells as if you were an Archivist of the next higher level. Thus, if you were an Archivist 11, you could cast 6th level spells. If you wanted 7th level spells, you'd need 2 more levels of Archivist, or 2 more levels of a PrC that offered +1 spellcaster level. Its the same amount of effort.

Unless you are talking about something else, at which point you need to clarify your question.

I just saw how oddly I worded that but I ended up figuring it out.

As far as spell levels and their relative power, you can't just look at similar spells, especially underpowered ones like Cure X Wounds. You have to look at the magnitude of the good spells. Solid Fog is WAY better than Web, which is WAY better than Grease, for example. Each spell level unlocks new power. Going from 6 to 7 and getting Divine Power is amazing, almost game changing. Going from 10 to 11 and unlocking Heal is crazy. Etc.

I used those for reference as they've been my most used spells thus far for this char and have a consistent measurable value. Its much harder to put a value on something like solid fog or web.

Psyren

2011-10-24, 01:49 PM

Magic Circle keeps out aligned summons (and then only if they don't have SR.) Nonsummoned creatures can walk up and poke you just fine.

You can't cast anything else (defensively or otherwise) while channeling a Storm of Vengeance, as you have to concentrate on it to keep it going. This is true even if the spell you're trying to cast is only a swift action.

Keld Denar

2011-10-24, 02:25 PM

Well, Sonorous Hum would allow you to pawn off concentration to a rounds/level spell, which WOULd allow you to do other stuff. But if that were the case, I think you'd have much more fun with Summon Elemental Monolith. The Air one has a DC 42 Ref Whirlwind effect (good luck with that one), while the Earth one is one casting of Heroics short of having Shocktrooper. KER-POW!

Mafic

2011-11-09, 01:01 PM

Well go figure after I finally make a decision based on your guys' suggestions my char gets tainted so hard he became an NPC. It was a near full party wipe with only 1 person not being killed/tainted beyond recovery. Ah well, I think I'm going to attempt to ride a character to 20 Druid. Being the slightly crazed sibling of the archivist won't help things but should be fun. Thanks again all for the help.

Psyren

2011-11-09, 01:42 PM