Questions, Totemist and/or Warblade.

[Bloodgruve]

I may be starting up a new campaign and I have been interested in both the Totemist and the Warblade classes for a while now.

I have a couple questions.

1.How fun/not fun are these classes to play?

2.I'm not looking for a t1 class but I want to play a class that can contribute and be somewhat versatile. Are either of these classes severely lacking in any area?

3.I like to do a lot of damage, I also have grown to like natural weapons and melee. Will I be disappointed with the damage output?

4.Would it be a bad idea to multiclass Totemist and Warblade? I haven't looked at them in this context before and I'm away from my books.

TY for your input.

Blood~

[Glimbur]

Warblade is supposed to multiclass well, but the main strength of the Totemist is the number of natural attacks they can get. As strikes are standard actions and typically only use one attack, there is a lack of synergy there. However, it would be possible to use a sword and use totemist abilities for support (natural armor, flight, scent, etc).

[Tar Palantir]

Warblade is supposed to multiclass well, but the main strength of the Totemist is the number of natural attacks they can get. As strikes are standard actions and typically only use one attack, there is a lack of synergy there. However, it would be possible to use a sword and use totemist abilities for support (natural armor, flight, scent, etc).

Additionally, the reverse is also possible; drawing more on the warblade's stances, boosts and counters to augment and supplement the flurry of natural attacks a totemist dishes out so well. Even something as basic as Punishing Stance works well with a totemist, and there are many more examples depending on your particular build and preferences.

[drakir_nosslin]

Both are fun to play, though in different ways.

The totemist is a great melee-type who can easily do a lot of damage with numerous natural attacks. It also has a few really good alternatives such as gaze attacks. It can also be a good skill-monkey or even a decent scout and you can change what you want to be from day to day, though feats and items will of course mean that you are better in some parts than others.

The warblade on the other hand is an excellent fighter, with lots of in-combat tricks and it can really shine in a melee-focused team (white raven). Since the warblade focuses more on single, powerful attacks it can do more damage with the help of power attack than a totemist, and it normally has the feats to do so. On the other hand, a warblade is not as skilled as a totemist, and is less useful outside of combat.

[Darrin]

1.How fun/not fun are these classes to play?


They are both awesomesauce on toast.



2.I'm not looking for a t1 class but I want to play a class that can contribute and be somewhat versatile. Are either of these classes severely lacking in any area?


You may be a little thin on your Will save, but Planar Ward and Moment of Perfect Mind can both help out there. Actually, I think they complement each other rather well. Warblade helps the Totemist with his damage output (which wasn't exactly weak to begin with), and Totemist can help the Warblade out with some mobility/defensive/anti-caster stuff.



3.I like to do a lot of damage, I also have grown to like natural weapons and melee. Will I be disappointed with the damage output?


Warblade Tigerclawing unarmed strikes + half a dozen claw attacks + Pounce + Thunderstep Boots + Heart of Fire... you'll be lucky if there are enough ashes left to get your hands dirty.



4.Would it be a bad idea to multiclass Totemist and Warblade? I haven't looked at them in this context before and I'm away from my books.


A two-level Totemist dip before Warblade 4 lets you take your 3rd level stance at ECL 6. That may be all you need from Totemist. Or you could try Totemist 5/Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1/Warblade 14, which still lets get a 9th level maneuver such as Time Stands Still.

Or if you want to focus on the Totemist end, a Totemist 5/Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Warblade 4/Totem Rager 10 would be quite a beast.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Both are great. Warblade 1 is also a great totemist dip. Give you Punishing Stance for +1d6 damage on each attack, Wolf Fang Strike for two attacks as a standard action, and some other stuff, which is excellent with Girallon Arms bound to totem.

[Person_Man]

Both classes are very fun.

During combat a Warblade generally uses 1 maneuver every round, has a small number of stances that he can switch between, and will generally use one counter or boost on most rounds. Thanks to full BAB and some synergy with his class abilities, these can easily be combined with Power Attack and other standard melee combos (Shock Trooper, Knock-Back, Knock-Down, etc). After the first 2-4ish rounds of combat he'll need to make a normal attack to refresh his maneuvers, and then he's back to using maneuvers and stances. There are a variety of handbooks dedicated to the many many cool things he can do.

Totemist has a variety of options open to him, and he can change his soulmelds and chakra binds every morning, which in some ways makes him more flexible then the Warblade (who is locked into a smaller number of maneuvers/stances known). This gives you fairly wide access to different special abilities, natural weapons, various bonuses to hit and damage, and Skills. But in most combats, the Totemist tends to just make a full attack every round (with 10+ attacks!), with the occasional breath weapon or Dimension Door or similar special ability mixed in once in a while. Because he lacks full BAB, he's not effective with Power Attack or most standard combos (with the notable exception of Grapple, which he is amazing at). So each round of combat tends to be fairly similar for a Totemist. But if you're the type of guy who just enjoys rolling a ton of dice, the Totemist is the class for you.

Both classes are considered Tier 3. Both classes are capable of massive damage. A multiclass Totemist/Warblade is a very very good idea at low levels, and both Incarnum and Tome of Battle were specifically built with multiclassing in mind. In particular, Totemist 2/Warblade 2-7ish or Totemist 2-8/Warblade 2 tends to be a very good combo.

But at higher levels, a strait Warblade 10+ or Totemist 10+ will generally be stronger then a Warblade X/Totemist Y, since the pure Warblade would have access to higher level stances and maneuvers and Warblade class abilities, and the pure Totemist would have more essentia/soulmelds and more/better chakra binds. This is especially true if you use soulmelds and chakra binds from Dragon Magic, Dragon Magazine, and online, which opens up a few amazing gems for the Totemist.

[mrcarter11]

Additionally, the reverse is also possible; drawing more on the warblade's stances, boosts and counters to augment and supplement the flurry of natural attacks a totemist dishes out so well. Even something as basic as Punishing Stance works well with a totemist, and there are many more examples depending on your particular build and preferences.



Yes this.. I think it'd make the best mutliclass path. You can use your Totemist's slew of natural attacks and keep the damage up. Now, Warblade taken now and again will net you some stances and counters which you can use to up your damage even more and to help show why enemies shouldn't attack you.. Only downfall.. Counters will ensure that you can't move your essentia around during a fight.. On the other hand, I don't think it should come up very often.

[Tvtyrant]

I think the best plan would be to go Incarnate/Warblade if you are going to multiclass honestly; the Incarnate gets more utility forms compared to the Totemist, and a lot of strikes only work on one attack anyways. If you are going to combine Warblade and Totemist go for tons of attacks and then stances that help you grapple/pierce DR/etc.

[Godskook]

1.How fun/not fun are these classes to play?

Tier 3 is considered the 'fun' tier, in that 95% of the classes are fun almost directly out of the box, with little-to-no optimization effort.


2.I'm not looking for a t1 class but I want to play a class that can contribute and be somewhat versatile. Are either of these classes severely lacking in any area?

Well, you're describing tier 3, and these classes are both tier 3, so we're good to go.


3.I like to do a lot of damage, I also have grown to like natural weapons and melee. Will I be disappointed with the damage output?

Define 'lots of damage' before I sign anything.

Warblades will have strong damage that will shine right up until you're dealing with optimized charger builds, but very little in the game out-damages an Uber-Charger, so that's not a problem.

A Totemist built for damage will probably lag slightly behind in damage on the good rounds, but make up for it by having ~7 attacks, which means that they are *FAR* more likely to deal significant damage every round, while the Warblade is more likely to have rounds that completely whiffed. But you can also spec a Totemist for 'kiting' enemies with ranged attacks and the feat flyby attack(both available via melds), or various utility purposes, some of which the Warblade wouldn't be able to do.

Here's (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=265125) an example of one of my Totemist builds.


4.Would it be a bad idea to multiclass Totemist and Warblade? I haven't looked at them in this context before and I'm away from my books.

Warblades tend to want to be in melee doing standard-action strikes while Totemists who go into melee want to be doing full-attack actions, probably charges. The synergy isn't great for most things, but there are a few things you can grab on the Warblade side that'd be attractive to a Totemist and vice-versa. Also, meldshapers want to keep their meldshaping level high, at least about 3/4 of their HD if possible, to keep up on essentia and ward against dispelling attempts.

[Bloodgruve]

TYVM for the input.

I would be running in a sub-optimized group so even if lost a little bit on the top end I'd prolly be on par with t2 or even t1 guys due to lack of experience on their part. I like the Warblade5 for Ironheart Surge, really want to have that option. The strikes aren't terribly appealing but the stances boosts and counters look kinda fun coupled with multiple attacks.

How does a totemist gain 10+ attacks?

TY
Blood~

[Bloodgruve]

Define 'lots of damage' before I sign anything.

I am not looking for ubercharger damage.

[Darrin]

How does a totemist gain 10+ attacks?


Improved unarmed strike for 2-3 iterative attacks (plus TWF, Snap Kick, etc.), 4 claw attacks from Girallon Arms, Double Chakra + Lamia Belt for 2 more claw attacks, add a bite via racial ability/Hunger Domain/Fanged Mask, Dragonborn of Bahumat/Dragon Tail feat to add a tail attack. There are some grafts/items/feats that can add a few other types of attack.

[Big Fau]

TYVM for the input.

I would be running in a sub-optimized group so even if lost a little bit on the top end I'd prolly be on par with t2 or even t1 guys due to lack of experience on their part. I like the Warblade5 for Ironheart Surge, really want to have that option. The strikes aren't terribly appealing but the stances boosts and counters look kinda fun coupled with multiple attacks.

How does a totemist gain 10+ attacks?

TY
Blood~

Manticore Belt is capable of generating 8 right out of the box (4+feat+2 from Totem benefits+Magic Item), and if you used the Totemist's Capstone that doubles to 16. The damage output is a tad weak, but easily boosted via Shape Soulmeld (Sighting Gloves).


Sinfire Titan has three handbooks regarding meldshapers (one for the general book itself (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551), and one for the Incarnate (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6920) & Totemist (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2943) each; the Soulborn handbook exists, but it deals with homebrew fixes, not the original class), and the most complete Warblade handbook is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193992).


Edit: Darrin brought it up, but Grafts are an excellent way to improve upon both the Totemist and Warblade bases. Again, Sinfire Titan has a handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12154.0) for it.

[Person_Man]

How does a totemist gain 10+ attacks?

There's a bunch of different ways. Darrin's suggestion is the most strait forward and popular. But there are many (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595). My preferred combo is:

Soulmelds:

Chaos Roc's Span: Gain 2 wing buffet attacks. Noteworthy in that it doesn’t need to be bound to a chakra slot in order to gain the extra attacks, and that wing attacks are rare. They deal non-lethal damage unless bound to your Shoulders, which also adds a Save or Daze effect. Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage with your wings. Dragon Magazine 350 pg 87.
Dragon Tail: Gain a tail attack. Noteworthy in that it doesn’t need to be bound to a chakra slot in order to gain the extra attack. If you do bind it to your Waist chakra, then the tail gains reach, which is very important for triggering attacks of opportunity. Dragon Magic.
Girallon Arms (bound to Totem chakra): Gain 4 claw attacks. Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage with the claws. Magic of Incarnum pg 68.
Sphinx Claws (bound to Hands): Bonus to all Strength checks (Trip, Bull Rush), and Pounce with all natural weapons. Magic of Incarnum pg 88.


Cheap Magic Items:

Fanged Mask: Adds an all day magic bite attack, plus a limited use Stun attack. Magic Item Compendium pg 99.
Horned Helm: Grants a magical Gore attack. Magic Item Compendium pg 112.
Fanged Ring: Grants Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike). Dragon Magic p. 101.


So at level 8, that's Unarmed Strike/Unarmed Strike/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Wing/Wing/Tail/Bite/Gore (11 attacks), with Pounce, prior to any Feat expenditure (which generally add attacks on a 1 for 1 basis), and prior to any natural weapons gained from racial abilities (slam, bite, claws, tail, etc). And you still have other soulmelds open to boost damage (Heart of Fire, Totem Avater, etc) or do other fun stuff.