CR Testing [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

qube

2011-10-21, 11:53 PM

- Shax's Haversack is here.
you can take it, but without all the 3.0 junk . if you want to prove broken ness of the new revision, using pre-revision stuff is not done.
(I'm seeing Oriental Adventures, Song & Silence, ...)

- edit: the only way you would be able to start with an allip is if the DM allows it. I already stated that I found low level clerics with allips overpowered - so there is simply no way you'dd be able to start with one. On the other hand, you are able to cast animate dead, I will allow Human Warrior Skeletons and Human Commoner Zombie. Other undead are either to uncommon, or can't hide enough from local authorities.

time to tell a tale ..
You've found a letter on the bullitin board, asking for help against ogre raids. You're certain you can handle a couple a couple of ogres, and a extra bag of coin is always nifty. in full confidance you don't need any help, you rip the letter of the board and make your way to the mounatins - weapon in hand, you march through the front gate.

after a 10 minute walk through deforested plains (aka, no real terrain features), make a spot check.

Which battle would you like to start with? Ogre goes first or Grog goes first?
first? I can do 6 battles at once.
- 6 spoiler blocks and a short history in each
(the first blocks you win init, the second I do)

Qube: Grog needs a spot check
edit: and to speed things up: a reflex save as well...

Qube: Grog needs a spot check
edit: and to speed things up: a reflex save as well...

Qube: cleric needs a spot check
edit: and to speed things up: a reflex save per character as well...

Qube: cleric needs a spot check
edit: and to speed things up: a reflex save per character as well...

Qube: druid needs a spot check
edit: and to speed things up: a reflex save per character as well...

Qube: druid needs a spot check
edit: and to speed things up: a reflex save per character as well...

edit2 as I like Dracks idea, one more ...
Qube: all 3 PCs make a spot check, and everyone make a 3 reflex safes to speed things up

Bridgar

2011-10-22, 07:50 AM

This is an arena to show the failures of the CR system, there is no story.
The arena is 100'x100'x100' and we start 30' away.
There are no spot checks involved, this is once the battle has started. You can assume that if the Ogre Mage wins init, the PC hasn't seen him. The opposite will also be true, though.
I only have Grog's sheet done. You'll have to wait on the other battles.
Why can a Cleric not use his class feature to rebuke undead? Why not that undead specifically? Are you saying it's too powerful for its CR? :smallconfused:
We'll assume that I don't have anything 3.0 in my bag. A&EG is still allowed, as nothing out of that book has changed and it was a direct, primary supplement to Core. Oriental Adventures got erratad (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a). All I lose is the expandable pole from Song & Silence.
If you use an illusion or trick, PC gets a save to disbelieve. If he fails, he's tricked. If he succeeds, he knows.

Grog First:

Free Action:Rage
Full Round Action:Charge (entirely adjacent)
[roll0] vs Flatfooted
[roll1] damage

Ogre First:

Your move.

qube

2011-10-22, 08:02 AM

This is an arena to show the failures of the CR system, there is no story. then i aint doing this.
sry.

edit: 2 people can make ultimatums.
if you want practical? OK. i'll lend you my time - but its my way or the highway :smalltongue:

conditi sine qua non

drack

2011-10-22, 08:42 AM

why no story? The ogre has been coming to the village nightly and stealing children, the adventurer is going to their cave in order to slay the awful beast... admittedly not much of a story, but it is for an encounter rather than a campaign... (naturally taken children are eaten) Edit: well either way, bridgar a pinch of fluff won't kill you. :smallcool:

Lets see here, no surprise round, initiative is won by each in turn, bridgar some of those consumables are rather powerful, but as you said you're not using them oh well :smallbiggrin:

As for cleric, I don't generally start every wizard off with undeads, it's convenient, but I think you're on your own, especially as by RAW only level 8+ clerics can command Allips :smallbiggrin:

qube

2011-10-22, 09:01 AM

drack

2011-10-22, 09:04 AM

You can come to a village nightly and steal children without being dumb about it, after all where else will you find that great flavor for your stew? :smalltongue: but in all honesty either story works. Personally I wouldn't think an ogre mage would be without subordinates, but than again nor would the party member, so go ahead :smallbiggrin:

qube

2011-10-22, 09:51 AM

look, point is, according to you Bridgar, my campaigns are underpowered because I use the CR system.

I don't use that system in a void.

if you want a taste of the CR system as I use it - sure. but don't be dictating the DM (me) the rules of engagement.

want my CR system? gotta play by my rules.
want your CR system? you don't need me for that. have fun.

pfff all this bickering made me lose intrest in DMming low level. back to my lvl30.

drack

2011-10-22, 10:06 AM

qube just DM a simple encounter through which to illustrate your point giving bridgar a level appropriate encounter for his level. Trust me it's simpler :smallbiggrin:

qube

2011-10-22, 10:39 AM

my CR system in action. (kill-pc mode)

You've found a letter on the bullitin board, asking for help against ogre raids. You're certain you can handle a couple a couple of ogres, and a extra bag of coin is always nifty. in full confidance you don't need any help, you rip the letter of the board and make your way to the mounatins - weapon in hand, you march through the front gate...

the ogre mage lives (change shape) in the city as guarding on a tower facing the road to his home. and thus sees any adventurer leave for it. (as the distance between the (top of) tower and the road is several 100 ft, no spot to see through the disguise of this 'random' guard)

he sees the PC he waits a few minutes, and then goes after him (looking for them while flying invis. recasting it every 5 minutes (with 9 minute duratipn, that means he has it if he sees the party)

after a 10 minute walk through deforested plains (aka, no real terrain features), make a spot check.

[roll0]+spot- 6 for distance and a -2 circumstance as you get aatacked from the back, against DC 20 invis

the ogre mage*, and all who succeed get a supprize round.
* who is flying 50 up 15 behind you.

ogre mage supprize round is cone of cold on the party (normally,this drains enough resources to constitude as 20percent of resources of the party = moderate encounter)
[roll1]+reflex vs DC18.[roll2] damage

during his first round the ogre mage is smart enough to see grog is a mellee-guy. sp he fly up and use longbow (nice range!) to hail grog to death.

if needed he 'll go invis and fly for a few bonusrounds for regeneration.

what I do when I suspect metagaming (without proof)

just happen to have a 900gp of Feather Token Whip and tree, while unknown that you're is fighting a flying enemy?:smallconfused:
possible? yes. probbable ...IMHO ... no. (sry, Im paranoid)

as DM, metagaming is one of the things I realy dislike, which is why I will pull out an other of my DMs tricks. When I suspect metagaming, I like to do something that even the players didn't expect. - hence making metagaming impossible.

Instead of engaging the enemy, the ogre mage flies over and releases his pet hydra (which was guared the cave of his subject ogres. - think like cerberus)
(a 8 headed pyrohydra. same CR , so no problem)

the ogre mage makes the hydra attack by giving 1 head some food, and fireing a blood dipped arrow in the direction of the PC (like a bloody game of apport - and longbow has a pretty sick range if you're not planning to hit anything).
[/spoiler]
while walking through the forrest you hear a wisstle and followed by a thundering sound. suddenly a hydra charges through the dense foilage
both roll init
[spoiler]
(in what would constitude as a supprize round (or animated intro): the 8 headed pyrohydra moves adjacent.
(hydra is not flatfooted. - and yes,I know I could have partial charged Grog and 8xattacked him. I'm not that cheap.)

hydra uses 50percent fire attacks 50 percent normal. if a head fails to deal firedamage (evasion, resistance), that head doesn't use fire on that enemy anymore

qube

2011-10-22, 10:45 AM

qube just DM a simple encounter through which to illustrate your point giving bridgar a level appropriate encounter for his level. Trust me it's simpler :smallbiggrin:

fine :smallsigh: simple encounter? 8h-pyrohydra it is.

start adjacent
both are not supprized

rolls for hypdra full attack.
[roll0] vs 15 [roll1]
[roll2] vs 15 [roll3]
[roll4] vs 15 [roll5]
[roll6] vs 15 [roll7]
[roll8] vs 15 [roll9]
[roll10] vs 15 [roll11]
[roll12] vs 15 [roll13]
[roll14] vs 15 [roll15]

qube

2011-10-22, 10:48 AM

and a crit roll :smallredface:
[roll0] vs 14 [roll1]

qube

2011-10-22, 10:58 AM

oh I see grog already had rolls...

Free Action:Rage
Full Round Action:Charge (entirely adjacent)
(1d20+16)[18] vs Flatfooted
(3d6+16)[23] damage
withou the bonus from charge, ye miss. (dude you rolled a 2... not fun for glass canons...) then again if the hydra goes first, he also rolled bad.

rolls for if Grog goes first - he's now raging

[roll0] vs 12 [roll1]
[roll2] vs 12 [roll3]
[roll4] vs 12 [roll5]
[roll6] vs 12 [roll7]
[roll8] vs 12 [roll9]
[roll10] vs 12 [roll11]
[roll12] vs 12 [roll13]
[roll14] vs 12 [roll15]

possible crit rolls
[roll16] vs 12 [roll17]
[roll18] vs 12 [roll19]
[roll20] vs 12 [roll21]
[roll22] vs 12 [roll23]

qube

2011-10-22, 11:04 AM

qube

2011-10-22, 11:15 AM

that undead specifically? Are you saying it's too powerful for its CR? :smallconfused: I thought I explained this ?:smallconfused:

CR is vs party.

a party usually has magic items.
monsters usually don't.

--> incorporeal is way stronger vs monsters then vs players.

drack

2011-10-22, 06:57 PM

I think that illustrates your point much better at least in my mind. :smallbiggrin: (though that is somewhat reliant on a DM who knows what they're doing, and on the party not being level 3... hopefully :smallwink:)

Bridgar

2011-10-22, 11:17 PM

summery

GROG GOES FIRST
- Grog rages (now 63hp) bearly misses.
- hydra deals 6 hits, 1 crit, 1 fumble: kills grog with 71 damage.
hydra wins
(if you want, you can hit the hydra with your charge, it matters not)

HYDRA GOES FIRST
- hydra deals 4 hits, 1 crit, 3 misses: grog gets 43 damage
- Grog 's turn
(if I charged, grog would be dead)

edit: oops, that's CR7, a normal hydra. Oh well ...

You don't see the discrepancy between how effective a Hydra is and how effective an Ogre Mage is? An Ogre Mage can, in the entire battle, deal 9d6 damage. The hydra can, in one round, deal 8d10+32. Even if you factor in that the Ogre Mage deals those 9d6 to everyone, it only gets one round of effectiveness before it's entirely useless. Its reach means nothing because you just 5' step and full attack anyway. It can fly, yes, but your Wizard can still blast, your Healer can still heal, and your Skillmonkey can still fire ranged attacks. The only person that the Ogre Mage is minorly effective against is the Glass Cannon, who kills it in one or two rounds if he goes first. The only shot the Ogre Mage really has is trying to kill the entire party with one Cone of Cold.

The Hydra, on the other hand, gets much more healing, much more health, and much more damage output, which it can distribute amongst all those near it. It has a low move speed, but basically has uberpounce. It can always attack with all of its heads. That includes attacks of opportunity.

You can't tell me that Hydras have the same level of effect on a party as an Ogre Mage. Can you name one single CR 21 monster that is as effective against a party as a Titan? I don't think you can.

qube

2011-10-23, 02:15 AM

You don't see the discrepancy between how effective a Hydra is and how effective an Ogre Mage is?in this arena? sure.

but you got a no-prep time and start within charge range. come on, you must see that by desiding that, it is you who create that discrepancy between brutes and casters.

heck most arena games I played (on line) had something of 3 rounds of prep time and about 100 ft distance of each other.

An Ogre Mage can, in the entire battle, deal 9d6 damage. The hydra can, in one round, deal 8d10+32. Even if you factor in that the Ogre Mage deals those 9d6 to everyone, it only gets one round of effectiveness before it's entirely useless.and yet, in actual gameplay, it has no trouble killing Grog. (forget cone of cold. lets be cheezy and fly 500ft up and arrow Grog down) - the parameters YOU decided for the arena simply don't allow for the ogre mage to come to its right.

You can't tell me that Hydras have the same level of effect on a party as an Ogre Mage. of course not, that hydra is CR7 and the ogre mage CR 8. :smalltongue:

--------------
edit: want to try that? 3 prep rounds and start 100 ft distance?

PRE-INIT OGRE MAGE:
- round 1: ogre mage turns invis and flies up 20 ft
- round 2: run action: 4x flies up 20 ft
- round 3: 2x flies up 20 ft

GROG WINS INIT (and is 100ft from where he saw the ogre mage dissapear.

your 3 prep rounds, and your first turn please...

edit2: as I suppose you don't want to metagame, I'll presume Grog doesn't know the ogre mage is flying. the ogre mage goes at a speed of 40 up/round (and moving to random square), so you can also post Grogs 2nd to 20th round. (as the ogre will go and fly to the maximum range increment, before he starts shooting his longbow. - killing grog with natural 20s)

Bridgar

2011-10-23, 10:27 AM

in this arena? sure.

but you got a no-prep time and start within charge range. come on, you must see that by desiding that, it is you who create that discrepancy between brutes and casters.

heck most arena games I played (on line) had something of 3 rounds of prep time and about 100 ft distance of each other.

and yet, in actual gameplay, it has no trouble killing Grog. (forget cone of cold. lets be cheezy and fly 500ft up and arrow Grog down) - the parameters YOU decided for the arena simply don't allow for the ogre mage to come to its right.

of course not, that hydra is CR7 and the ogre mage CR 8. :smalltongue:

--------------
edit: want to try that? 3 prep rounds and start 100 ft distance?

PRE-INIT OGRE MAGE:
- round 1: ogre mage turns invis and flies up 20 ft
- round 2: run action: 4x flies up 20 ft
- round 3: 2x flies up 20 ft

GROG WINS INIT (and is 100ft from where he saw the ogre mage dissapear.

your 3 prep rounds, and your first turn please...

edit2: as I suppose you don't want to metagame, I'll presume Grog doesn't know the ogre mage is flying. the ogre mage goes at a speed of 40 up/round (and moving to random square), so you can also post Grogs 2nd to 20th round. (as the ogre will go and fly to the maximum range increment, before he starts shooting his longbow. - killing grog with natural 20s)

First off, I've never heard of prep rounds for a battle, as they solely favor the monsters. What all can be done in a prep round? Can I throw my Flour Pouch at him when he turns invisible? I think that's a viable option. If not, I use Feather Token Tree, cut it down, and burn it. Or, I just use a liquid smoke. Or, I just use my shapesand to make an impenetrable hemisphere around me, blocking the arrows. Or, I use Torch Bug Paste. I could do any number of things to even out the Ogre Mage's inability to fight on a level playing field. He will never be as effective against the party as the CR 8 9-headed hydra. He will never be as effective against the party as the CR 7, 6, or 5 hydras. Ogre Mage just sucks.

You ignored my Titan request. Find me any CR 21 monster that can do to a party what a Titan can. Chain Lightning as a free action every round!

qube

2011-10-23, 02:27 PM

First off, I've never heard of prep rounds for a battle, as they solely favor the monsters.ONE

rogue: we listen at the door
DM: you hear the orcs
rogue: ok ... I'm NOT telling the wizard this! he could cast mage armor or something

demilich: odd ... someone triggered the alarm of my vault.
*makes sure he has no protections spells on him* lets go take a looksy.

TWO

how would prep time benefit the monster if it was wizard vs hydra.

THREE

Im hearing recursive thinking
CR is broken ---> you only want to test it your way --> conclude the CR must be broken.

here is an analogy of your train of thought:
I think screwdrivers don't work --> i whack screws until they are in the wood --> screwdrivers don't work!!

So now you're complaining screwdrivers don't work. I say try turning the screw in.
my screwdrivers work quite well, because I use them in such a way they work well.

FOUR

that probbably means I have more experience in battles.
they add prep time so glass canons don't dominate every match.

FIVE

ok, no prep time. ogre mage starts 1000ft above the ground. better?
should be a good compromise. no prep time and encountering flying creaures happen.yesterday, I saw a flying duck.
or do you encounter only sitting ducks? (pun intended)

SIX ROFL

"I've never heard of prep rounds for a battle"? titan says:
Prior to combat: Invisibility purge or invisibility.

Chain Lightning as a free action every round! I don't get it? why are you marking your mistakes as bold and underlined?
edit: i'll be nice and tell ya: they can only do that 3/day. - ref the feat they have to get this

qube

2011-10-23, 03:13 PM

either way, this is my conclusion to this practical exersise.

(new lyrics for this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sss9aNbtEpA))

I make encounters, I go with the flow,
the need for homebrew? I simply need RAW
This is no lesson, but the start of my show.
Make my games fun, that is the way I roll

using all tricks, let me say it again,
my CRs bring fun but can also bring pain.
Don't wanna use it? there's is nothing I can do.
but that's no problem for me, that's a problem for you

Bridgar

2011-10-23, 03:57 PM

ONE

rogue: we listen at the door
DM: you hear the orcs
rogue: ok ... I'm NOT telling the wizard this! he could cast mage armor or something

demilich: odd ... someone triggered the alarm of my vault.
*makes sure he has no protections spells on him* lets go take a looksy.

TWO

how would prep time benefit the monster if it was wizard vs hydra.

THREE

Im hearing recursive thinking
CR is broken ---> you only want to test it your way --> conclude the CR must be broken.

here is an analogy of your train of thought:
I think screwdrivers don't work --> i whack screws until they are in the wood --> screwdrivers don't work!!

So now you're complaining screwdrivers don't work. I say try turning the screw in.
my screwdrivers work quite well, because I use them in such a way they work well.

FOUR

that probbably means I have more experience in battles.
they add prep time so glass canons don't dominate every match.

FIVE

ok, no prep time. ogre mage starts 1000ft above the ground. better?
should be a good compromise. no prep time and encountering flying creaures happen.yesterday, I saw a flying duck.
or do you encounter only sitting ducks? (pun intended)

SIX ROFL

"I've never heard of prep rounds for a battle"? titan says:
Prior to combat: Invisibility purge or invisibility.

I don't get it? why are you marking your mistakes as bold and underlined?
edit: i'll be nice and tell ya: they can only do that 3/day. - ref the feat they have to get this

Again, you're masking the shortcomings of your argument by getting mad and assaulting my logic. You responded to neither challenge.

Grog uses Flour Pouch, Feather Tree Token, Shapesand, Liquid Smoke, or Torch Bug Paste. Now that the Ogre Mage's strategy of not ploaying fair has been stopped, how can he possibly win?

You haven't found a creature who can match a titan's ability to wreak havoc on a party. Can you name one CR 21 creature who can match a titan in fighting a party?

drack

2011-10-23, 06:03 PM

Bridgar

2011-10-23, 08:11 PM

lets see, bridgar you weren't gonna use one use items so lets go with the ever-smoking bottle, dragons do a good job at dealing with a whole party... than again I've never faced a titan IC... qube, calm down :smallcool: I know you were having fun with the point that I was gonna have a field day with, but don't get carried away, and bridgar, prep rounds benefit the party more :smallcool: add a bulls strength to offset gained advantages, while I consider it silly I can see why some may use them.

Shapesand isn't one use. Shapesand can be reshaped with another Wis Check.

In any case

Grog will most likely not be using Consumables, that's just a standard adventurer's kit, if you will.

Grog doesn't use consumables unless the enemy forces him to. In this case, the enemy has forced him to.

I think it only fair that if the Ogre Mage gets shenanigans, Grog gets them too.

qube

2011-10-24, 01:00 AM

Grog uses Flour Pouch, Feather Tree Token, Shapesand, Liquid Smoke, or Torch Bug Paste. Now that the Ogre Mage's strategy of not ploaying fair has been stopped, how can he possibly win?by waiting until the effect wares off.
the ogre mage simply flies beyond Grog's range, while Grog remains in range

look, the only way your barbarian is going to win is for him to get an item that grants flight. (boots of levi (7500gp) is not enough)
- which is outside of the range of a level 5 PC (WBL9000gp in total)

winged boots (15min fly, 16000) are not enough: you'll never get to him in in time (he can turn invis and run away way before you're in range to throw anti invis stuff)

if you add the rule of max item cost is limited to half WBL, you won't win from him before you reach lvl 8.

and that last sentence is enough for me.

You haven't found a creature who can match a titan's ability to wreak havoc on a party. Can you name one CR 21 creature who can match a titan in fighting a party?because

(1) titans can't cast quicken chain lightning at will. - only 3 times. so I need a new baseline.

(2) the number of CR21 creatures I have access ro is VERY low. what happened to CR8?

(3) an augmented balor seems pretty sweet. dominate monster at will
(and summon balor is also nice :) )

drack

2011-10-24, 05:28 AM

Shapesand isn't one use. Shapesand can be reshaped with another Wis Check.

yes, but it's shapesand :smalltongue:

qube

2011-10-24, 07:29 AM

he doesn't use consumables unless the enemy forces him to." ...
(1) isn't that logical? what's the alternative?
Player 1: I drink a potion of cure light wounds
DM: but ... You're on full hp !?
Player 2: yeah, but I like the taiste

(2) I don't care it's consumables. As I said, In the other thread: "you do realize, you're supposed to show how broken the CR system is, not how the right item saves the day"

I think it only fair that if the Ogre Mage gets shenanigans, Grog gets them too. Starting a ogre mage in flight, and letting a monster use a longbow if that's on his statblock, that's just normal DMming.

Flying 1000ft in the air is powerplay - but not shenanigans.
( I thought you wanted a real battle, not me cuddling you like I cuddle my RL players? :smallbiggrin:

This is shenanigans: Ogre Mages has Treasure: Double standard. There are 2 kind of DM's: those who play their monsters with treasure and those without. (I personally am of the opinion that they're not supposed to have/use that stuff, but there's no RAW proof one way or the other - which means - RAITAYCPIWN).
so ... this Ogre Mage just happen to have a one time use +20 spellcraft item, and a gate-scroll. Enter Titan. (or some simelar tactick, I don't know how much Double standard would be). Now THAT constitutes as is shenanigans.

Edit: This is also shenanigans: Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu.

Edit2: This is shenanigans: terminal velocity 10ft metal bar.
I drop my large greatsword from high distance on you while you're hiding under your anti-arrow dome. 20d6.

drack

2011-10-24, 09:04 AM

Flying 1000ft in the air is powerplay - but not shenanigans.
( I thought you wanted a real battle, not me cuddling you like I cuddle my RL players? :smallbiggrin:

I think he wanted to see what you do with your RL players that makes the system work for them... also I suggest you stay within a range that your bow remains functional, and hope that bridgar doesn't find a forest and use his barbarian climb to be on you as soon as you enter to keep him within range :smalltongue: (bridgar don't bother with climbing a tree to jump him it's a horrible plan, though it is usually plenty easy enoug to find cover...)

Bridgar

2011-10-24, 09:12 AM

The alternative is to actively use consumables rather than fighting with a weapon. It's what level 1 wizards do and it's what blastificers do.

CR takes WBL into account. It's not the right item saving the day, it's the right item showing how incompetent the Ogre Mage is.

How can you not see how pitiful this is? The Ogre Mage has to hide and attack in a way that it's not returned to have any chance of survival against a party that's 6.75 levels lower than it.

By the way, you've been forgetting that Invisibility ends when you attack.

Round 1: Ogre Mage is invisible, 100' up. He fires an arrow that does a pitiful 2d6 damage. Is now visible and has a move action left. Grog throws flour pouch or uses torch bug paste. Uses move action to activate Feather Token Tree.

Round 2: Ogre Mage has the choice between shooting another arrow for 2d6 damage or spending a round flying down to melee combat. It doesn't matter which he chooses, Grog climbs the tree and starts whipping items at the Ogre Mage from behind a Shapesand barrier until the Ogre Mage dies. If the Ogre Mage goes into melee with him, Grog wins.

Torch Bug Paste lasts an hour. If you're going to try to wait that one out... good luck.

Any CR 21 should match his damage capabilities against a party if CR is as accurate as you say it is. It's a judge of how much impact you can have on a party, isn't it?

First off, if you're bringing summoning into this, Titan just gates in an Elder Titan. Battle=over. Secondly, Dominate Monster at-will seems nice until you realize how low the DC is. By level 20, you should definitely have at least +17 to Will (this is a pitifully low number for 20, but it'll do) or have immunity to mind-affecting. Thirdly, you're not taking into account that which you guarded so vigorously for the Ogre Mage: surprise. You can't exactly disguise a Balor and they don't want to be disguised. A Titan, on the other hand, has Change Shape (Medium or Small). It also retains its Gargantuan weapons. Picture a friendly gnome in a bar. You say the wrong thing to him and he pulls out an indestructible hammer bigger than you and starts pummeling you with it, his body exuding enough lightning to kill every patron of the bar.

drack

2011-10-24, 10:30 AM

Bridgar I think the thing is that you have the best of affordable items scoured from the book making your item repudiator 'high op', few parties are so well equipped as this one level 3 barbarian, that's why I suggested that abusing consumables wouldn't help much, now a +x comp longbow is reasonable...

Also really? gate in an elder titan? they are passive creatures that spend eons pondering the mysteries of reality it's self, how will they feel about being called in like a thug to an unruly brat who is so quick to jump at a minor insult... I think the party will see true strength, and also learn how other breeds teach discipline... :smalleek: Also why I supported lack of surprise is that it goes both ways, and a party is just as commonly ambushed as a monster. as for suddenly pulling out a huge weapon I thought those shift size with you :smallconfused: and if not than you're idly chatting with a gnome who happens to have a ten ton hammer loosely strapped to his back :smalltongue:

qube

2011-10-24, 11:07 AM

I think he wanted to see what you do with your RL players that makes the system work for them... give them difficult encounters - not impossible ones. However, as I showed, by playing the ogre mage differently, they can vary dependant on how I play the monster.

But what I don't do, is set it up for a one turn kill encounter.
I set up moderate encounters for about 20% of the resources.

For example: mid combat the ogre mage demands their surrender. the PCs surrender. the ogre mage turns of invisibility and comes to gloat. PC's attakc the now off guard ogre mage and kill it.

also I suggest you stay within a range that your bow remains functional,I do. longbow is functional up to 1000 ft. Sure I'll miss a lot, but only to show Bridgar that Grog has no chance to win against an ogre mage who's not pulling any punches.

How can you not see how pitiful this is? The Ogre Mage has to hide and attack in a way that it's not returned to have any chance of survival against a party that's 6.75 levels lower than it.the rogue in me says "hiding pitiful? sure, but you're laying in a puddle of blood, and not me. I aint fighting for honor. I fight to win"

Hiding isn't pitiful if you're a monster with invisibility at will.

Round 1: Ogre Mage is invisible, 100' up. He fires an arrow that does a pitiful 2d6 damage. Is now visible and has a move action left. Grog throws flour pouch or uses torch bug paste. Uses move action to activate Feather Token Tree.I seem to recall that I said he does. he elevates to 1000 ft and shoots an arrow for a pittiful 2d6 on a natural 20. He's now visible and uses his move action to laugh at your grounded barbarian.

Torch Bug Paste lasts an hour. If you're going to try to wait that one out... good luck.why good luck? with regen on my side, waiting is the smartest thing I can do ...

Any CR 21 should match his damage capabilities against a party if CR is as accurate as you say it is. It's a judge of how much impact you can have on a party, isn't it?

First off, if you're bringing summoning into this, Titan just gates in an Elder Titan. Battle=over.how do I put this ? hmmm ...

Dear Bidgar.

You might want to read up about titans and gating. If you do, you'll quickly see why they don't use gate to call other creatures.
Also, you might want to read up on balors. I'm sure you'll notice why it's a valid tactic to summon other demons.

P.S. check out "A titan usually reserves its gate and etherealness abilities to escape a fight that is not going well." and "Fire storm or implosion and quickened telekinesis, or summon additional demons" you might find them interesting.

P.P.S. Did you know gate used for calling is broken by your own definition of broken?

P.P.P.S. you might wanna read up on Gate, so you know that if he summons something titan will summon an other titan, not an elder titan

P.P.P.P.S. you know that's the 3th time I needed to correct you when it concerning basic rules (spells? read them. monsters? know what they can or can't do). Nothing personal, but every time I need to correct you on these basic things, more and more you seem like (I'm not saying nor intend to imply that you are) some newbie that took one glace at the rules and decided they're wrong. PLEASE, verify your facts.

Qube.

Aside from that.
But OK, we're going for the pffff ... we can play better then WotC?

Augmented Balor goes ***** ***** ***** (a.k.a. repeat blasphemy)
(no save, area 1 turn stun, and 2d6 str loss for 2d4 rounds)
do that until everyone drops helpless from strength loss (I recon most PCs don't have 50 strength?)
quicken telekinesis to lay the bodies in a very ... way (:evil grin:)
summon balor
blasphemy again, while your buddy balor vorpal coup the graces the PCs

there. Balor also TPKs. the PCs don't even had a chance to run. (except the barbarian, who possibly woke during the summoning.

drack

2011-10-24, 11:19 AM

I do. longbow is functional up to 1000 ft. Sure I'll miss a lot, but only to show Bridgar that Grog has no chance to win against an ogre mage who's not pulling any punches.
100' to be exact, 110 with composite longbow, I believe around 200' with great bow... there is a non-epic enchantment and epic feat that let you fire as far as you can see, but that's not a standard longbow. :smallcool:

"If you do, you'll quickly see why they don't use gate to call other creatures"ego? :smallconfused:

"Did you know gate used for calling is broken by your own definition of broken"I prefer it for travel myself, though it's useful for summoning the whole bartering process can get you dead quick enough if done mid-combat...

"you might wanna read up on Gate, so you know that if he summons something titan will summon an other titan, not an elder titan" could work either way, but the youthful rash one's more likely to help :smalltongue:

"you know that's the 3th time I needed to correct you when it concerning basic rules (spells? read them. monsters? know what they can or can't do). Nothing personal, but every time I need to correct you on these basic things, more and more you seem like (I'm not saying nor intend to imply that you are) some newbie that took one glace at the rules and decided they're wrong. PLEASE, verify your facts." I see corrections both ways, no need to talk yourselves into frowning any harder at each other for it ay? :smallbiggrin: Also bridgar knows the spells he's just looking form a bit too optimized of a viewpoint :smallbiggrin:

Bridgar

2011-10-24, 11:33 AM

I seem to recall that I said he does. he elevates to 1000 ft and shoots an arrow for a pittiful 2d6 on a natural 20. He's now visible and uses his move action to laugh at your grounded barbarian.

You're not even fighting. It takes you 20 rounds to hit me and you're at max range. I just make 1 double move action and then proceed to walk the rest of the way. You can't catch me and fire your bow in the same round.

why good luck? with regen on my side, waiting is the smartest thing I can do ...

See previously posted tactics. I climb a tree and kill you.

Any CR 21 should match his damage capabilities against a party if CR is as accurate as you say it is. It's a judge of how much impact you can have on a party, isn't it?

how do I put this ? hmmm ...

Dear Bidgar.

You might want to read up about titans and gating. If you do, you'll quickly see why they don't use gate to call other creatures.
Also, you might want to read up on balors. I'm sure you'll notice why it's a valid tactic to summon other demons.

So you don't have to follow the listed tactics for an Ogre Mage but you do for Titans?
Just because it says that they prefer to save it for retreating doesn't mean they won't use it to call in reinforcements.

P.S. check out "A titan usually reserves its gate and etherealness abilities to escape a fight that is not going well." and "Fire storm or implosion and quickened telekinesis, or summon additional demons" you might find them interesting.

Bolded for importance

P.P.S. Did you know gate used for calling is broken by your own definition of broken?

As is summon demon. I was just matching the Balor action for action.

P.P.P.S. you might wanna read up on Gate, so you know that if he summons something titan will summon an other titan, not an elder titan

And why do you say that? Is an elder titan a "unique creature"? Is it a deity? I don't think it's either of those. Here comes an elder titan!

P.P.P.P.S. you know that's the 3th time I needed to correct you when it concerning basic rules (spells? read them. monsters? know what they can or can't do). Nothing personal, but every time I need to correct you on these basic things, more and more you seem like (I'm not saying nor intend to imply that you are) some newbie that took one glace at the rules and decided they're wrong. PLEASE, verify your facts.

Qube.

If I corrected you every time you misspelled something, this entire thread would be spelling corrections. Does that mean you're a fourth grader? You spell like one. PLEASE, use proper spelling and grammar.

Aside from that.
But OK, we're going for the pffff ... we can play better then WotC?

Augmented Balor goes ***** ***** ***** (a.k.a. repeat blasphemy)
(no save, area 1 turn stun, and 2d6 str loss for 2d4 rounds)
do that until everyone drops helpless from strength loss (I recon most PCs don't have 50 strength?)
quicken telekinesis to lay the bodies in a very ... way (:evil grin:)
summon balor
blasphemy again, while your buddy balor vorpal coup the graces the PCs

there. Balor also TPKs. the PCs don't even had a chance to run. (except the barbarian, who possibly woke during the summoning.

SR/Protection from Evil/AMF/Sonic Immunity/Counterspell (all things that a level 20 party are capable of)
Unless I'm mistaken, it's still caster level 20. There's no strength damage... CHECK YOUR FACTS!
Will Save DC 23 ooh, that's hard to make at level 20.
This is broken by everyone's standards. It lets you infinitely summon Balors.
SR/Protection from Evil/AMF/Sonic Immunity/Counterspell again, while your buddy party members Dismiss the second Balor and beat the ____ out of the first one.

Balor does not TPK.

drack

2011-10-24, 11:53 AM

If I corrected you every time you misspelled something, this entire thread would be spelling corrections. Does that mean you're a fourth grader? You spell like one. PLEASE, use proper spelling and grammar Yes, I admit I use wrong spelling and grammar :smalltongue:

Balor doesn't TPK, but in my opinion it's not meant to solo as well as a titan, they're meant to have a legion of demons behind them... :smallbiggrin:

qube

2011-10-24, 01:17 PM

(ha, my victory over bold is complete, thanks to my purple in black camouflage)

100' to be exact, 110 with composite longbow, I believe around 200' with great bow... there is a non-epic enchantment and epic feat that let you fire as far as you can see, but that's not a standard longbow. :smallcool:ah, but that's 100 ft range increament.
you get -2 attack per range incr and with projectile weapons you can go upto 10 of them.

and I totally think that's powerplay - which I usually don't do as DM. However, I was under impression that Bridgar started this thead to show he could sure-win with ECL5 Grog - showing how broken CR really is. In that point of view, I don't feel like I should refrain from playing the ogre mage to his full potential.
By not doing so, I can prove to Bridgar that even an ogre mage is no picknick against his barbarian

"If you do, you'll quickly see why they don't use gate to call other creatures"

ego? :smallconfused: they use it as escape spell. ... so smarts I'dd say.

You're not even fighting. It takes you 20 rounds to hit me and you're at max range. I just make 1 double move action and then proceed to walk the rest of the way. You can't catch me and fire your bow in the same round. pfff ... ok, if you do that, he descends (speed x2) to 950ft or something.

See previously posted tactics. I climb a tree and kill you. I still don't see why that tree is a good idea?
you SURE you know the climb rules? :smallconfused: one-quarter your normal speed, tree DC 15, You need both hands free to climb..

So you don't have to follow the listed tactics for an Ogre Mage but you do for Titans :smallconfused: listed tactics for an Ogre Mage ?

P.P.S. Did you know gate used for calling is broken by your own definition of broken?

As is summon demon. I was just matching the Balor action for action.
....
This is broken by everyone's standards. It lets you infinitely summon Balors.
you SURE you know the conjuration rules? :smallconfused:
summoning prevents loops (summoned creatures can't summon).
and gate ... isn't summoning, but calling.

so we agree. gate is broken, summon balor is not.

And why do you say that? Is an elder titan a "unique creature"? Is it a deity? I don't think it's either of those. Here comes an elder titan!
an elder titan is a 70HD creature, and thus you lack control.

If I corrected you every time you misspelled something, this entire thread would be spelling corrections. Does that mean you're a fourth grader? You spell like one. PLEASE, use proper spelling and grammar. I like to think that I spell like someone where english is his third language and uses an on screen keyboard. - in which case I'm fine.

SR/Protection from Evil/AMF/Sonic Immunity/Counterspell (all things that a level 20 party are capable of) capable, sure. but practically? doubtful. and once the first blastphemy is cast ... the party is basically perma-stunned or helpless.
(and Pro. evil doesn't work. deflection bonus, no mental control, no body contact)

Unless I'm mistaken, it's still caster level 20. There's no strength damage... CHECK YOUR FACTS!:smallconfused: I checked my facts .
you must be looking at balor. why would you do that? he's a CR20
I'm using an augmented balor you see. +1CR

Will Save DC 23 ooh, that's hard to make at level 20.:smallconfused: I must have an other interpretation of No saving throw is allowed against these effects.

This is broken by everyone's standards. It lets you infinitely summon Balors. thank you for agreeing calling monster is broken. thank god balors summon.

Bridgar

2011-10-24, 01:50 PM

pfff ... ok, if you do that, he descends (speed x2) to 950ft or something.

Run action. You still can't catch me.

I still don't see why that tree is a good idea?
you SURE you know the climb rules? :smallconfused: one-quarter your normal speed, tree DC 15, You need both hands free to climb..

With all my items and my STR, I get +17 against a DC 20 to climb at half speed. That's as fast as you can fly up... Not sounding too bad now, is it? :smallconfused:

:smallconfused: listed tactics for an Ogre Mage ?

Saving gaseous form? No?

you SURE you know the conjuration rules? :smallconfused:
summoning prevents loops (summoned creatures can't summon).
and gate ... isn't summoning, but calling.

so we agree. gate is broken, summon balor is not.

Sure...

an elder titan is a 70HD creature, and thus you lack control.

It doesn't matter. He shows up, kills the party, and then asks the summoning titan why he was summoned. If you saw a human getting bit by a dog, you'd help him, then ask why the dog was biting him.

I like to think that I spell like someone where english is his third language and uses an on screen keyboard. - in which case I'm fine.

That's no excuse. The forum has a spellchecker built in.

capable, sure. but practically? doubtful. and once the first blastphemy is cast ... the party is basically perma-stunned or helpless.
(and Pro. evil doesn't work. deflection bonus, no mental control, no body contact)

Oh really? Having sonic immunity is impractical? Having persisted Battlemagic Perception is impractical? Merely having spell resistance is impractical? Are you kidding me???

:smallconfused: I checked my facts .
you must be looking at balor. why would you do that? he's a CR20
I'm using an augmented balor you see. +1CR
:smallconfused: I must have an other interpretation of No saving throw is allowed against these effects.
thank you for agreeing calling monster is broken. thank god balors summon.

Check your facts again. CR =/= CL. Nonepic monsters never get epic CL.

I meant the saving throw that you get for telekinesis. Note that the numbers on my points match the numbers on yours.

Banishment. There goes your second Balor. It works on your first Balor too, come to think of it.

drack

2011-10-24, 02:05 PM

BACK IN BOLD

It doesn't matter. He shows up, kills the party, and then asks the summoning titan why he was summoned. If you saw a human getting bit by a dog, you'd help him, then ask why the dog was biting him.
a four year old magically jolts you from your bed at 3AM into a damp street and demands that you crush that little ant for him, are you concerned about the ant or the unruly kid that thinks it's alright to disturb your sleep and comfort for bug killing, or lets say that you're in the middle of writing not take orders from a three year old just because. Elder titans are ancient beings who don't kill parties before thought, but instead prefer to think of everything involved. (sorry, probably wouldn't bother, but elder titans are one of my favorite monsters)

That's no excuse. The forum has a spellchecker built in.
Trust me man it doesn't catch everything. :smallcool:

Bridgar

2011-10-24, 02:08 PM

BACK IN BOLD

So, you're saying that 4 year olds don't have anyone responsible for them? They don't have parents? That doesn't sound right. Gate allows you to call people by name as well, remember.

qube

2011-10-24, 02:48 PM

Run action. You still can't catch me.run actions can also be done with flight.

but I'm more curious where this thing leeds to.
"CR is broken because I run faster" ?

:smallbiggrin: you've could have done that with the hydra as well, ya know ...

With all my items and my STR, I get +17 against a DC 20 to climb at half speed. That's as fast as you can fly up... Not sounding too bad now, is it? :smallconfused:using a free action to drop your weapon?

Saving gaseous form? No?haven't used it yet. should I have?

It doesn't matter. He shows up, kills the party, and then asks the summoning titan why he was summoned. If you saw a human getting bit by a dog, you'd help him, then ask why the dog was biting him. if you're lucky. you see, An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous.

then again, as both are controlled by the DM, can do that without any problem.Next session however, I think some players won't show up.

if it was me as player however, i'dd counter such a move with *gate Elminster*.
As DM it now puts you in either losing the encounter, or trying to explain why elminster doesn't wanna help out, while random elder titan would want to help.

That's no excuse. The forum has a spellchecker built in. yes, but you see, he's spellchecking in dutch, underlining nearly every word (unless I misspelled every word in "but you see, he's spellchecking dutch, underlining nearly every"

Oh really? Having sonic immunity is impractical? Having persisted Battlemagic Perception is impractical? Merely having spell resistance is impractical? Are you kidding me???no. sonic is one of the least common elements. What is Battlemagic Perception and how do you get it to persist? most PCs don't have SR32. (SR21 costs 90 000gp.)

Check your facts again. CR =/= CL. Nonepic monsters never get epic CL.:smallconfused: ... where does it say that?
heck, NPC Wilders have it as class feature at lvl 16. (she gains +5 to her manifester level)

nothing here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#advancedMonsterChallengeRati ng) about capping on 20

Banishment. There goes your second Balor. It works on your first Balor too, come to think of it.true.
it also works on the first titan, giving the elder no more readon to fight.

The balor has a small advantage: most PCs can't cast while being stunned and helpless (str0). :smallbiggrin:

meant the saving throw that you get for telekinesis
OK, fine. no awkward positioning for you :smallannoyed: you're no fun at all

qube

2011-10-24, 02:51 PM

BACK IN BOLD

DARN TWARTED
back to cammo-black!

drack

2011-10-24, 04:55 PM

Still bold
So, you're saying that 4 year olds don't have anyone responsible for them? They don't have parents? That doesn't sound right. Gate allows you to call people by name as well, remember.
They have parens, but did your parents watch you every second of your life thus far? and if you're a mere 400 years old than do you truly expect your parents to be 100,000 years old, or just 2000? :smalltongue: 'now little Timothy, never ever under any circumstances disturb great great great great granddad when he's sitting there :smalltongue:

But honestly the truth of the matter is that elder titans are as different a species as wolves and dire wolves (dire being the earlier breed that died out), elder titans are more complacent, live longer, and actually try to coexist with the world almost becoming as much a part of it as that hill or large rock, they adapt their magic to the environment and spend all their time as knowledge seekers. Now were I to DM I'd rule them as elders of the titan race, but calling them by RAW you may as well call them from their ancient scrolls as soon as you call a force dragon from it's cave of jewels. :smallcool:

if you're lucky. you see, An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous.
If you're lucky it may take a seat and hope to learn from the lot of you pausing the encounter to inquire after all that everyone knows before leaving both parties rested without any surprise rounds :smalltongue: ... or it may just gate it's self back... or use that hammer...

if it was me as player however, i'dd counter such a move with *gate Elminster*.
As DM it now puts you in either losing the encounter, or trying to explain why elminster doesn't wanna help out, while random elder titan would want to help. Naturally because he doesn't wanna fight the elder titan, the two of them sit down for a good game of chess while you battle in the background :smallamused:... just don't hit the board:smalleek:...

:smallconfused: ... where does it say that?
heck, NPC Wilders have it as class feature at lvl 16. (she gains +5 to her manifester level)I think he's actually right here just because the two are generally kept quite separately, but as this balor with +1CR is now CR21 shouldn't it be epic and have CL>21? though CR still isn't CL (forgot who said what on this now :smalltongue:)

Bridgar

2011-10-24, 06:09 PM

run actions can also be done with flight.

but I'm more curious where this thing leeds to.
"CR is broken because I run faster" ?

It shows that the best the Ogre Mage can hope for is a draw. With the most ridiculous and lopsided approach that he can take, his opponent can still run.

:smallbiggrin: you've could have done that with the hydra as well, ya know ...

I can't actually beat the hydra with a level 5, though. Not without getting ridiculous, anyway.

using a free action to drop your weapon?

Or I use a move action to put it away. I have loads of time because you have to get a 20 to hit.

if you're lucky. you see, An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous.

It's better than dying at the hands of mere humans.

then again, as both are controlled by the DM, can do that without any problem.Next session however, I think some players won't show up.

if it was me as player however, i'dd counter such a move with *gate Elminster*.
As DM it now puts you in either losing the encounter, or trying to explain why elminster doesn't wanna help out, while random elder titan would want to help.

You can Gate Elminster against a Balor as well. As you can see, Titan is much more dangerous to the party.

The point still stands. Titan gets the element of surprise, higher damage output, better summoning, better saves, more hp and AC, SR (of which the Balor has none to speak of), and a wider choice of SLAs, although at lower DCs.

yes, but you see, he's spellchecking in dutch, underlining nearly every word (unless I misspelled every word in "but you see, he's spellchecking dutch, underlining nearly every"

Download the English Keyboard Pack. When you switch your keyboard over to English (CTRL+SHIFT changes keyboard language), it should switch your spellchecker to English. If that doesn't work, get the English Language Pack from the Microsoft site.

no. sonic is one of the least common elements. What is Battlemagic Perception and how do you get it to persist? most PCs don't have SR32. (SR21 costs 90 000gp.)

Ring of Elemental Immunity lets you choose the element.

Battlemagic Perception is a level 3 Cleric, Sorcerer/Wizard spell that lets you counterspell as an immediate interrupt once per casting. It has a few other effects, but they're rather unimportant. You persist it the same way you persist every spell...

DMM Cleric casts Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellResistance.htm), chains it to the whole party, and persists it. There, SR 32.

:smallconfused: ... where does it say that?
heck, NPC Wilders have it as class feature at lvl 16. (she gains +5 to her manifester level)

Monsters don't get class levels, unless you're ready to admit they need them to parallel the power level of a party. That means they're stuck with base CL. There's no non-epic monster with CL above 20. Even Solar, at CR 23 and 22 HD only has CL 20. If you can find a nonepic monster with CL above 20, I'll surrender this point. to this point.

nothing here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#advancedMonsterChallengeRati ng) about capping on 20

It also says nothing about increasing your Caster level. :smallconfused:

true.
it also works on the first titan, giving the elder no more readon to fight.

The difference being that Titans actually have SR.

The balor has a small advantage: most PCs can't cast while being stunned and helpless (str0). :smallbiggrin:

See above ways to stop that.

drack

2011-10-24, 07:30 PM

Bold
It's better than dying at the hands of mere humans.
When it gets to this point it's sadder than dying by humans, you're committing suicide which is a cowards way out, would a titan truly commit such an act of cowardice?
You can Gate Elminster against a Balor as well. As you can see, Titan is much more dangerous to the party. I think this was a joke...

The point still stands. Titan gets the element of surprise, higher damage output, better summoning, better saves, more hp and AC, SR (of which the Balor has none to speak of), and a wider choice of SLAs, although at lower DCs. Dude, numbers bend with the faintest touch, it's fluff that counts, and if you wanna win tactics count more. :smallcool:

yup :smallcool:

Bridgar

2011-10-24, 07:43 PM

yup :smallcool:

Numbers bend at the faintest touch, which is why CR means nothing. Thank you, drack.

Oh, and calling in a possible enemy for help is no more cowardly than running away...

drack

2011-10-24, 08:27 PM

committing suicide is the most cowardly action though, and if that proves CR broken than I break levels by the same method :smalltongue:

No, but really tactics are what really matters :smallcool:

Bridgar

2011-10-24, 08:35 PM

committing suicide is the most cowardly action though, and if that proves CR broken than I break levels by the same method :smalltongue:

No, but really tactics are what really matters :smallcool:

He's not commiting suicide. He's calling in an unpredictable greater being that could help him or hurt him. It's more gambling than anything.

Tactics play a big part, but a level 1 monk will still always get killed by a level 20 wizard. :smalltongue:

drack

2011-10-24, 09:14 PM

there are better gambles out there if they decide that it's not smart to shove around bigger batter guys :smallcool:

perhaps, that one would really depend on how incompetent the wizard is though :smalltongue:

Bridgar

2011-10-24, 09:28 PM

bobthe6th

2011-10-25, 12:15 AM

I am I hope an independent voice, with no stake in this rather drawn out argument. ok, my opinion from the massive amount of text here.

on the issue of CR: it is a system that gives a beginning DM a yard stick. a DM that has just flipped through the DMG, played a few games, and wants to try his hand. it can be broken fairly easily, as can a lot of D&D. by RAW a power-gaming player with this DM could tromp through the lands. but for the four friends that want to try D&D... they will learn with the DM.

now, Brig, you could be the power gamer that tore the RAW world a new one... and change an easy going DM into the worst nightmare, that makes Gax turn over in his grave. you know the kind, clinging to RAW blindly and slamming the banhammer on all homebrew, and all magic.
and you could try this with a good DM, and find that your Grog keeps losing stuff and being pickpocketed. "aww, that was a nice shiny axe the disinchanter/rust monster just ate." you would probably tone it down or quit shortly.

on CR VS Players: after a time, the new DM should be makeing his own stuff, and playing to his group. the group will develop and mature, leading to a happy time for all. this older DM won't use CR as much, but will get a feel for the system.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

this argument is growing over blown and over long. Brig, I do not say power gaming is bad/good/chaotic/lawful. it is what you want it to be. but it is not the only style of play, and you often seam to assume it is.

I personally get a little tired of having to read thirty source books to play a set piece game. warhammer would have that covered, and would probably be better.

and lastly, my opinion on RAW... it is the starting point. online it is a good baseline, every one can play by RAW. but offline, it should be used, but when in dought make bloop up! as the DM, you just need to keep your players happy, not the esoteric gods of RAW.

qube

2011-10-25, 12:49 AM

It shows that the best the Ogre Mage can hope for is a draw. With the most ridiculous and lopsided approach that he can take, his opponent can still run. ... yeah ... but running away only proves the encounter was more then moderate difficulty.
... which is what CR is all about.

I can't actually beat the hydra with a level 5, though. Not without getting ridiculous, anyway. ridiculous is in the eye of the beholder. its not ridiculous if its wizard vs animal-like monster.

Being outside reach/range perhaps is cheap, but its one of the oldest tricks in the book.

Or I use a move action to put it away. I have loads of time because you have to get a 20 to hit. at which point I move faster up then you do - giving you more advantage to remain on the floor.
(btw, if you climb a tree, why would I fly up, and not backward? (same problem as levitate)

You can Gate Elminster against a Balor as well. As you can see, Titan is much more dangerous to the party. As I said: As DM it now puts you in either losing the encounter, or trying to explain why elminster doesn't wanna help out, while random elder titan would want to help.

A summoned Balor has no choice (by virtue of summon).
Gate Elminster vs Balor? Elminster says no. No awkwardness for the DM.

The point still stands. Titan gets the element of surprise, higher damage output, better summoning, better saves, more hp and AC, SR (of which the Balor has none to speak of), and a wider choice of SLAs, although at lower DCs.and a Balor can also bring havoc to a party, I don't really get the point. Are we again in Allip vs OgreMage mode?

Download the English Keyboard Pack. When you switch your keyboard over to English (CTRL+SHIFT changes keyboard language), it should switch your spellchecker to English. If that doesn't work, get the English Language Pack from the Microsoft site. still doesn't work,

Ring of Elemental Immunity lets you choose the element.

You persist Battlemagic Perception the same way you persist every spell

DMM Cleric casts Spell Resistance, - sonic is very uncommon to spend a ring on
- I know not of many spellcasters that actually took persist metamagic (except for DMM)
- there are much better spells a lvl20 DMM could cast. (like multi-person boost spells ). ... unless he uses nightsticks, of course.

As I said: possible? sure. plausable, IMHO no.

Monsters don't get class levels, unless you're ready to admit they need them to parallel the power level of a party.I used the example of a lvl 16 NPC wilder only to show caster level doesn't cap on 20.
nothing to do with parallel the power level of a party

It also says nothing about increasing your Caster level.
Not litterly, true, but as stated, I regard a CR21 balor to lvl20 PCs, as though a CR20 Balor would face lvl 19 PCs

The difference being that Titans actually have SR. I could have sworn a balor does to. "Special Qualities: spell resistance" must mean something different.

Either way, Banishment (For each such object or substance, you gain a +1 bonus on your caster level check to overcome the target’s spell resistance (if any), the saving throw DC increases by 2) is not really a spell where SR/save is a problem. be it demon or titan.

And, btw, Banishment doesn't stop a balor (at will greater teleport to a portal, step through, at will greater teleport near the party, wait for buffs to ware off, attack). While a titan can gate only 1/day ...

qube

2011-10-25, 01:39 AM

on CR VS Players: after a time, the new DM should be makeing his own stuff, and playing to his group. the group will develop and mature, leading to a happy time for all. this older DM won't use CR as much, but will get a feel for the system.that and it gives a good baseline for monsters: a low level party might fight monster who happen to be on the negative (a flyer in a cave, etc ...) - a high level party might fight a monster on the positive (the fun I had with kobolds kicking the butts of higher level party members ...)

this argument is growing over blown and over long. True, especially since this wasn't a discussion thread. (dunno where titans suddenly came from ...)

In short

Grog vs Hydra: Hydra wins
Grog vs Unprepared ogre mage: Grog wins
Grog vs Ogre Mage (using everything to it's disposal): Ogre Mage wins

In the end, it seems a good DM can make the CR system work.

Bridgar

2011-10-25, 07:41 AM

... yeah ... but running away only proves the encounter was more then moderate difficulty.
... which is what CR is all about.

No. It just means that one arrow hitting you every two minutes is annoying enough to make you want to move so that they stop hitting you...

You can't seriously call 'I attack every round until I hit on a 20' challenging, that's what level 1 commoners do en mass to overwhelm people.

ridiculous is in the eye of the beholder. its not ridiculous if its wizard vs animal-like monster.

Being outside reach/range perhaps is cheap, but its one of the oldest tricks in the book.

Wizard can't possibly move fast enough and fire a spell. Hydra can double move 40 and attack. Wizard can double move 60 to stay out of range but then can't attack. Wizard could also move 30 and attack, but gets hit repeatedly by the hydra.

at which point I move faster up then you do - giving you more advantage to remain on the floor.
(btw, if you climb a tree, why would I fly up, and not backward? (same problem as levitate)

And if Grog spent 100 of his 241 gold left on a composite Longbow? He now has better range than you, better to-hit, and better damage. Again, lone level 5 beats CR 8 without much effort.

As I said: As DM it now puts you in either losing the encounter, or trying to explain why elminster doesn't wanna help out, while random elder titan would want to help.

A simple explanation on the part of the DM: Elminster is named, thus unique. This elder titan was not called by name, an elder titan was just called. Elminster had a choice and refused. The elder titan did not have a choice.

A summoned Balor has no choice (by virtue of summon).
Gate Elminster vs Balor? Elminster says no. No awkwardness for the DM.

and a Balor can also bring havoc to a party, I don't really get the point. Are we again in Allip vs OgreMage mode?

Balor has the ability to wreak havoc, but not to the level that a Titan can. Titans can easily deal out several hundred damage every round, dealing part of that to each party member.

In his surprise round, he kills the wizard with a full attack disguised as a gnome (unless the wizard has Starmantle, in which case it doesn't matter what he's fighting, he wins), then deals avg 70 damage to everyone in the room.

First round of combat, meteor swarm followed by chain lightning. That's 52d6 to everyone. Last time I checked, Balors can't do that to a party.

still doesn't work,

- sonic is very uncommon to spend a ring on

No... it's not... it's uncommon for players to pick because they're stupid. In the world, there's an equal number of each and players who know what they're doing will go for sonic immunity.

- I know not of many spellcasters that actually took persist metamagic (except for DMM)

Again, your spellcasters aren't playing very intelligently and don't use metamagic. Also, Clerics can cast Battlemagic Perception. DMM Cleric casts and persists it. Done.

- there are much better spells a lvl20 DMM could cast. (like multi-person boost spells ). ... unless he uses nightsticks, of course.

There are few spells more worthwhile than SR. Haste is one of them. Bite of the Werebear is another (chain and persist). Starmantle (if it's allowed) is totally broken, but is better than SR.

As I said: possible? sure. plausable, IMHO no.

Is it plausible that an Ogre Mage would fly 1000 feet up to fire arrows at a level 5? No.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. I just realized that at that distance, the Barbarian could roll a 2 for hide and you still wouldn't be able to spot him because of distance modifiers. Looks like you backed yourself into a corner there.

I used the example of a lvl 16 NPC wilder only to show caster level doesn't cap on 20.
nothing to do with parallel the power level of a party

Not litterly, true, but as stated, I regard a CR21 balor to lvl20 PCs, as though a CR20 Balor would face lvl 19 PCs

He still doesn't get CL 21.

I could have sworn a balor does to. "Special Qualities: spell resistance" must mean something different.

4 points of SR are huge

Either way, Banishment (For each such object or substance, you gain a +1 bonus on your caster level check to overcome the target’s spell resistance (if any), the saving throw DC increases by 2) is not really a spell where SR/save is a problem. be it demon or titan.

Yes, because a +1 against SR makes SR completely insignificant, right?

And, btw, Banishment doesn't stop a balor (at will greater teleport to a portal, step through, at will greater teleport near the party, wait for buffs to ware off, attack). While a titan can gate only 1/day ...

In the time that he's gone, they draw a circle of magic against evil. He now can't do anything to them.

that and it gives a good baseline for monsters: a low level party might fight monster who happen to be on the negative (a flyer in a cave, etc ...) - a high level party might fight a monster on the positive (the fun I had with kobolds kicking the butts of higher level party members ...)

I believe that he intentionally didn't say that. He's saying that it's a good baseline for DMs who don't know what they're doing and that once you're established as a DM, you make your own monsters or use character levels (These are what I do).

In short

Grog vs Hydra: Hydra wins
Grog vs Unprepared ogre mage: Grog wins
Grog vs Ogre Mage (using everything to it's disposal): Draw!!! You even admitted that the best he can hope for is a draw!

In the end, it seems a good DM can make the CR system work.

But would be better off not wasting his time with it.

qube

2011-10-25, 09:13 AM

No. It just means that one arrow hitting you every two minutes is annoying enough to make you want to move so that they stop hitting you... You can't seriously call 'I attack every round until I hit on a 20' challenging,Annoying? perhaps, but you can't deny a simple ogre mage forced you in a situation where you can't win, and the only way you can hope not to lose is to force a draw.

From this point on I can play ogre mages as sub-par as I want to give you an appropriate challenge.
Easy? supprize and sitting duck
Moderate? let him fire a cone of cold (removing part of your hp)
Difficult? cone of cold and let him fly within 3 range increments of your throwing items.

Wizard can't possibly move fast enough and fire a spell. Hydra can double move 40 and attack. Wizard can double move 60 to stay out of range but then can't attack. Wizard could also move 30 and attack, but gets hit repeatedly by the hydra.RUN, FOREST, RUN!!! - only fire if he's 100ft from the hydra (or 50-something ft high in flight)

And if Grog spent 100 of his 241 gold left on a composite Longbow? He now has better range than you, better to-hit, and better damage. Again, lone level 5 beats CR 8 without much effort.That's a good idea.

In fact, I thought of that as well, which I why I fly so high. See, my ogre mage doesn't know what you have in your pocket (a longbow, perhaps a scroll for a long range spell) - all he knows is big guy with big club (or whatever). If I were a metagaming man, would just fly 100 ft in the air and some X/Y distance between us. That would make a +0 vs your AC 14, and 7/20 of the arrows would hit.

However since I fly at 1000ft, I'm out of range of many long distance spells, and out of range of most bows. Sure a lucky hit could still hit me, but that would result in non-leathal damage. A fire arrow might work, but if the first one misses (good chance), it gives the ogre mage time to review his tactic.

"Again, lone level 5 beats CR 8 without much effort."
a smart DM has forseen that WAAAAAY before the encounter even started.

--- insert additional snarky remark ---

A simple explanation on the part of the DM: Elminster is named, thus unique. This elder titan was not called by name, an elder titan was just called. Elminster had a choice and refused. The elder titan did not have a choice.The elder had a choice.
See, if you ad-hoc decides that monsters get the benefit of 'dangerous'/... parts of spells, you're players will instinctively follow you. - and in expectance that you don't cheat, also allow those
... but really doesn't matter as we both agree gate is broken.

What's this titan have to do with Grog or the Ogre Mage anyway? want to wage Grog vs Titan? OK. :smallbiggrin:
- Grog can't hit Titan's AC (or deal 370 damage on crit) (or see him if invisible)
- Titan cast meteor swarm [roll0] vs touch AC [roll1] blund and [roll2] fire. and quicken lightning bolt [roll3] (reflex [roll4] vs DC 23 for half) for good measure.
- :insert final fantasy victory tune: Titan wins

(edit: oops, I forgot to do the Titans Tactics Round-By-Round thing - sry 'bout that)

In the end, it seems a good DM can make the CR system work.
But would be better off not wasting his time with it.since anyone has yet to propose a better & equally easy alternative, there's no... euh ... alternative :smallbiggrin:

drack

2011-10-25, 09:16 AM

Bold
Mending prepared for every spell!!! you know one of us needs to do that now don't you? :smallamused:

A simple explanation on the part of the DM: Elminster is named, thus unique. This elder titan was not called by name, an elder titan was just called. Elminster had a choice and refused. The elder titan did not have a choice. True, though the titan gets to bargain, and may still kill you for your arrogance... unlikely if it's not a wast of time, but all the same

... then deals avg 70 damage to everyone in the room. First round of combat, meteor swarm followed by chain lightning. That's 52d6 to everyone. Last time I checked, Balors can't do that to a party.
they each have their strengths, a titan is better suited to suddenly explode amid the party into fiery everything, but bridgar don't knock Balors, they may not be quite as awesome (fluffwise of course), but they can lay the hurt too. :smallcool: True they could be much stronger with better tactics, but you have to remember that they themselves are the generals of the legions of the abyss, and with good reason, true seeing with telepathy, spell like abilities, and a suggestion that they use scrolls (+use magic item for scrolls) all coupled with their ability to teleport right in front of the masses at their death for a final targeted blast... Bridgar these guys are good. The real difference though is in encounter planning, balor is not supposed to fight alone, titan is.

Again, your spellcasters aren't playing very intelligently and don't use metamagic. Also, Clerics can cast Battlemagic Perception. DMM Cleric casts and persists it. Done.
there are always better ones to persist, though I don't think that would be worth the metamagic in most cases :smallcool:

There are few spells more worthwhile than SR. Haste is one of them. Bite of the Werebear is another (chain and persist). Starmantle (if it's allowed) is totally broken, but is better than SR. I use DMM nightsticks aren't really worth their weight and bother, if you do it right you shouldn't need them. :smallcool: All the same there are some good things, most important is probably general wards/buffs all the same I rarely bother with persist just because I prefer to explode into havoc rather than have my armor, it offers more flexibility, and I'll actually have decent uses left. That's not to say that it doesn't work so much as that dispel magic becomes your nightmare if you rely on one daily allotment of persisted spells that you deplete each morning. :smallcool:

He still doesn't get CL 21. True. :smallcool:

4 points of SR are huge I've never found them to be quite so, I suppose under given circumstances, but in general SR isn't that hard to overcome, now spell immunity... (infinite SR), now that's another story :smallcool:

Yes, because a +1 against SR makes SR completely insignificant, right? If you get enough of them :smalltongue:

In the time that he's gone, they draw a circle of magic against evil. He now can't do anything to them. Insert the best weapon ever: level 1 commoner :smalltongue: But honestly waiting for your enemy to die is a rather poor tactic...

I believe that he intentionally didn't say that. He's saying that it's a good baseline for DMs who don't know what they're doing and that once you're established as a DM, you make your own monsters or use character levels (These are what I do).that's what he's saying, though personally I think both can work... personally I like making my own things every now and than, but were I doing say abyssal conquest for an uber-epic I think an encounter of five balors with a few scrolls would do more than enough, I may even drop it to 2 and some lesser demons... anyways my point is that when used with tactics matching the op of characters CR can easily do the job, you don't drop tools from your sack, you just juggle them all :smallbiggrin:

But would be better off not wasting his time with it. I pick a CR scale each time I DM so that they get the same xp for about the same challenge and supplement xp, but for instance some times I'll make a CR20 challenging for low op, and other times a CR10 challenging for high op depending on the game. For instance the one you're in I'm using weak enemies with a few nice little tricks mixed in. (wow tactics for NPCs ay. :smalleek:)

I am I hope an independent voice, with no stake in this rather drawn out argument. everyone has an opinion which makes them not neutral, but as you will.

Personally I see CR as how much xp you want to give your players :smallcool:

this argument is growing over blown and over long. Brig, I do not say power gaming is bad/good/chaotic/lawful. it is what you want it to be. but it is not the only style of play, and you often seam to assume it is. yes, and no. It has been drawn out, but there is much more depth to the conclusions thus far as a result. Trust me if my debate with a creationist friend was so simplified we would probably fall back on classic arguments and fail at life :smallbiggrin:

What's this titan have to do with Grog or the Ogre Mage anyway? want to mage Grog vs Titan? OK. :smallbiggrin:
- Grog can't hit Titan's AC (or deal 370 damage on crit) (or see him if invisible) 38 AC isn't hard to hit after a few level ups...
- Titan cast meteor swarm [roll0] vs touch AC [roll1] blund and [roll2] fire. and quicken lightning bolt [roll3] (reflex [roll4] vs DC 23 for half) for good measure.
Also bridgar named titan as one of those that could match the party, switch all instances of titan with balor and this fits :smalltongue:

qube

2011-10-25, 09:38 AM

38 AC isn't hard to hit after a few level ups...sure ... but running away doesn't give you XP :smalltongue:

edit: sorry for the snarky remark, I coudn't refrain

Also bridgar named titan as one of those that could match the party, switch all instances of titan with balor and this fits
Okeydokey.
Pre combat round: Balor has lost his d12.
Round 1: implosion. Grog gets compresed to the shape of a d12. and dies horribly.
Round 2: summon 4 hezrous
Round 3: start playing a futuristic RPG game situated in some odd universe 2011 years after some god's kid nearly got killed

edit: oooh, balors have +35 on diplomacy (-20 for standard action, means +15 vs DC 20 to stop people from being hostile as standard action ... :evil grin: )

drack

2011-10-25, 09:51 AM

Okeydokey.
Pre combat round: Balor has lost his d12.
Round 1: implosion. Grog gets compresed to the shape of a d12. and dies horribly.
Round 2: summon 4 hezrous
Round 3: start playing a futuristic RPG game situated in some odd universe 2011 years after some god's kid nearly got killed

Using CR20 to kill a ECL 5 proves about as much as grog killing a goblin, I thought we upped grog to something reasonable...

qube

2011-10-25, 09:53 AM

(edit in prev post) oooh, balors have +35 on diplomacy (-20 for standard action, means +15 vs DC 20 to stop people from being hostile as standard action ... :evil grin: )

Using CR20 to kill a ECL 5 proves about as much as grog killing a goblin, I thought we upped grog to something reasonable...why would we do that? wasn't the point that Grog beated CR higher then himself? I simply thought, Bridgar is feeling bold ...

drack

2011-10-25, 10:50 AM

a) diplomacy doesn't work, hence I either find a new system for it or give large circumstantial bonuses. :smallcool:
b) yes, but if you really want hit to be killing titans with a level 5 he'll need to be a bit broken... :smallcool:

qube

2011-10-25, 11:10 AM

b) yes, but if you really want hit to be killing titans with a level 5 he'll need to be a bit broken... :smallcool:odd ... that's the point I made that started all this, being that low levels shouldn't be able to beat high CR monsters - not to mention lvl 30 gestalts.

Bidgar disagreed, so I thought, he's bringing titans back, I'll finally see ÉCL5 Grog beat the titan.

Bridgar

2011-10-25, 11:22 AM

No. My point with Titans is that CR still means nothing. CR 21 Titan is better than CR 21 most anything else, proving the variance of CR. Once there's variance in a scale, it's useless. If the lines on your ruler were different at different hours of the day, would you still use it? :smallconfused:

Also, you get -100 to spot Grog from 1000 feet away. Good luck with that...

drack

2011-10-25, 12:07 PM

odd ... that's the point I made that started all this, being that low levels shouldn't be able to beat high CR monsters - not to mention lvl 30 gestalts.

Bidgar disagreed, so I thought, he's bringing titans back, I'll finally see ÉCL5 Grog beat the titan.

nope, he was saying that CR groups are uneven and a CR10 could present a tougher challenge than CR16 or the like. H was saying that the CR system it's self can't be relied on in order to gauge strength of encounters so much as the stats, abilities, and such themselves do. :smallcool:

qube

2011-10-25, 02:34 PM

nope, he was saying that CR groups are uneven and a CR10 could present a tougher challenge than CR16 or the like you sure? he srongly disagreed with
"level 10 massivaly broken as he should not be able to solo a tarrasque or something"
So I though. Grog, titan. not really lvl10 vs cr20, but he has confedance in his own capabilities.

Once there's variance in a scale, it's useless.The world tends to disagree with you. Its called the acceptable margin of error. For example:

If the lines on your ruler were different at different hours of the day, would you still use it?. It is.
- temperature in the room
- moisture of the room (if its made from wood)
- speed I (the observer) move (Eisteins theory of relativity)
- position of the ruler. (a vertical one has more gravital pull at the bottom)
- hour of the day/stance of the moon (again gravital pull)
... and the list goes on and on

all modify the length of a ruler. but all do it within the acceptable margin of error.

Best you got is proof there are certain creatures might have the wrong number. ... nothing more.

Also, you get -100 to spot Grog from 1000 feet away. Good luck with that... Good point. I would reccon they start when one sees the other. (+4/+8 is for difference in size)
Spot Grog [roll0]
Spot Titan [roll1]
Titan wins. uses invisibiliy spell (as specified in his tactics)
round 1 Titan cast quicken chain lightning and fries Grog.

edit: could you up Grog to ECL10?
edit2: to pit him against a CR 20 monster, you see. Decided by random die once Grog is finished

Bridgar

2011-10-25, 04:36 PM

you sure? he srongly disagreed with
"level 10 massivaly broken as he should not be able to solo a tarrasque or something"
So I though. Grog, titan. not really lvl10 vs cr20, but he has confedance in his own capabilities.

You're completely missing everything that he and I are saying...

The world tends to disagree with you. Its called the acceptable margin of error. For example:

If the lines on your ruler were different at different hours of the day, would you still use it?. It is.
- temperature in the room
- moisture of the room (if its made from wood)
- speed I (the observer) move (Eisteins theory of relativity)
- position of the ruler. (a vertical one has more gravital pull at the bottom)
- hour of the day/stance of the moon (again gravital pull)
... and the list goes on and on

all modify the length of a ruler. but all do it within the acceptable margin of error.

Yes, and if it were that small of a difference, I would understand. It's not, though. On a scale of 1-23 (as per core), 8 can be less than 3 at times. That's like 4 inches being less than 1.5 inches. Is that within an acceptable margin of error?

Good point. I would reccon they start when one sees the other. (+4/+8 is for difference in size)
Spot Grog [roll0]
Spot Titan [roll1]
Titan wins. uses invisibiliy spell (as specified in his tactics)
round 1 Titan cast quicken chain lightning and fries Grog.

We're still talking about Grog vs Ogre Mage. The only person who's talking about Grog vs Titan is you. I talked about Titan's damage to a party vs Balor's damage to a party. Try to keep our conversations straight, I know it's hard. :smallwink:

Anyways, Ogre Mage fires arrows down 1000 feet, Grog sees one arrow, makes a pitiful attempt at hiding, and then the Ogre Mage can no longer target him due to the -100 on spot. Looks like your defense of the incompetent isn't as strong as you thought it was. There is now absolutely no situation in which Grog (party level 1.25) can lose to an Ogre Mage (encounter level 8). Your CR system really isn't looking too good.

edit: could you up Grog to ECL10?
edit2: to pit him against a CR 20 monster, you see. Decided by random die once Grog is finished

It'd involve templates. You'd call it broken. What you don't realize is that martials need things like templates and dips to match casters, who are powerful, but not broken. The only way to balance power between casters and noncasters without simply nerfing casters out the a** is to bring noncasters up to that level. I'm sure you're in favor of nerfing casters out the a**, but that's because you're afraid of power. You think that the power level that monsters were designed at is the one true power level. It's not!

drack

2011-10-25, 06:47 PM

We're still talking about Grog vs Ogre Mage. The only person who's talking about Grog vs Titan is you. I talked about Titan's damage to a party vs Balor's damage to a party. Try to keep our conversations straight, I know it's hard. :smallwink:
that was taken as one example, you challenged the CR system not just the CR of the ogre mage right?

It'd involve templates. You'd call it broken. What you don't realize is that martials need things like templates and dips to match casters, who are powerful, but not broken. The only way to balance power between casters and noncasters without simply nerfing casters out the a** is to bring noncasters up to that level. I'm sure you're in favor of nerfing casters out the a**, but that's because you're afraid of power. You think that the power level that monsters were designed at is the one true power level. It's not!
I could judge... after all I believe both of you have considered me more or less reasonable...
(qube, again I apologize for being so reasonable and forcing you to agree with me by sheer logic and good sense :smalltongue:)

qube

2011-10-26, 01:09 AM

Yes, and if it were that small of a difference, I would understand. It's not, though. On a scale of 1-23 (as per core), 8 can be less than 3 at times. That's like 4 inches being less than 1.5 inches. Is that within an acceptable margin of error?Yes it is. IRL we use scales with very big margins of error.

Take the Richter scale vs Mercalli scale.

Richter: a single number to quantify the energy contained in an earthquake.
Mercalli: The scale quantifies the effects of an earthquake on the Earth's surface, humans, objects of nature, and man-made structures on a scale from I (not felt) to XII (total destruction)

Nearly the whole world uses Richter.
Yet in case of an earthquake, except for a few scienists, who cares how much energy was contained?

It'd involve templates. You'd call it broken. What you don't realize is that martials need things like templates and dips to match casters, who are powerful, but not broken :smallconfused: I advocated 3.5 fighters every chance I got. I can do some pretty sick things with them - without templates or dips. (cheese, sure, but no dip)

Why would you need templates and dips? It was not you who said once there's variance in a scale, it's useless.:smalltongue:

I could judge... after all I believe both of you have considered me more or less reasonable... Agreed.

however, judge the build toward 'level 10', not the fact he'll face a CR20. As otherwise:
- lvl 10 vs CRX
---> (optimized) build that has 50ish percent to beat a CRX
- see, lvl 10s can beat CRX

as pun pun is lvl 6, I'm aware of that lvl 10s can beat CRX

So, I'll be waiting for Grog ECL10...

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 02:39 AM

Yes it is. IRL we use scales with very big margins of error.

Take the Richter scale vs Mercalli scale.

Richter: a single number to quantify the energy contained in an earthquake.
Mercalli: The scale quantifies the effects of an earthquake on the Earth's surface, humans, objects of nature, and man-made structures on a scale from I (not felt) to XII (total destruction)

Nearly the whole world uses Richter.
Yet in case of an earthquake, except for a few scienists, who cares how much energy was contained?

Yes, and the scientists who use an arbitrarily quantified Mercalli Scale are laughed at. If it's not repeatable, it's not science. I can guarantee that the same earthquake can be viewed as less destructive and given a different Mercalli number, thus making the test not repeatable.

This was a great example! The Mercalli Scale is a useless scale, as it means nothing. The recent Tohocu earthquake got a shocking 9.0 on the Richter Scale an only an IX on the Mercalli Scale. 18,500 people died in that earthquake. The Christchurch earthquake got a 6.3 on the Richter Scale and an X on the Mercalli Scale. 181 people died in that earthquake. Obviously, the scale can't even gauge that which it's meant to gauge, human effect.

The Mercalli scale is just like the CR system! You're brilliant, qube! You've made the perfect analogy. Both are useless systems of attempting to quantify something that is subject to speculation. Both also have a counterpart that attempt to infer the same thing through a quantification of the cause for that effect. In the case of earthquakes, the effect is damage and the cause is the level of energy in an earthquake. In Dnd, the effect is the effect of a monster on a party and the cause is power level. Mercalli is to Richter as CR is to ECL.

:smallconfused: I advocated 3.5 fighters every chance I got. I can do some pretty sick things with them - without templates or dips. (cheese, sure, but no dip)

I could use feats, if the worthwhile martial feats didn't have BAB requirements slapped onto them. You need at least level 15 to have a worthwhile martial battlefield controller (ToB aside).

Why would you need templates and dips? It was not you who said once there's variance in a scale, it's useless.:smalltongue:

What scale are you referring to? :smallconfused:

Agreed.

however, judge the build toward 'level 10', not the fact he'll face a CR20. As otherwise:
- lvl 10 vs CRX
---> (optimized) build that has 50ish percent to beat a CRX
- see, lvl 10s can beat CRX

as pun pun is lvl 6, I'm aware of that lvl 10s can beat CRX

So, I'll be waiting for Grog ECL10...

Grog ECL 10 would not be a good example. Grog has a low slope linear power advancement. For level 10, I'd either try a Chain Tripper (high slope linear power advancement) or a Caster (quadratic power advancement).

qube

2011-10-26, 02:56 AM

btw, what I just found: nightwalkers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm)cast at CL21.
... must be a typo :smallwink:

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 02:59 AM

btw, what I just found: nightwalkers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm)cast at CL21.
... must be a typo :smallwink:

Nightcrawlers cast at level 25. I submit the point. Increasing Balor to CR 21 may raise his CL to 21. The party still has numerous methods to deal with it; as, they're a level 20 party.

qube

2011-10-26, 04:28 AM

Nightcrawlers cast at level 25. I submit the point. Increasing Balor to CR 21 may raise his CL to 21. The party still has numerous methods to deal with it; as, they're a level 20 party.I never desputed that. To almost any combo there's a countercombo. However, there's a good chance they don't have those on when combat opens. And the moment the augmented balor starts his blasphemy combo, Its all over...

drack

2011-10-26, 06:26 AM

:smallconfused: I advocated 3.5 fighters every chance I got. I can do some pretty sick things with them - without templates or dips. (cheese, sure, but no dip)
Yup, bridgar will likely have a chance depending... I'm gonna be measuring him up to some level 10s that I have made in the past which may stand the faintest chance here. Items that just kill you or deal infinite damage will not be allowed, the following is the list of monsters which will privately be rolled from.

1. balor
2. pit fiend
3. dragon: black wyrm
4. dragon: red old
5. dragon: brass ancient
6. dragon: bronze, very old
7. dragon: copper, very old
8. dragon: silver, old
9. tarrasque
10. gray linnorm
11. Megapede
12. Orcwort
13. Ancient Night Twist
14. vampire troll hunter

Also lets roll us a random climate:
1 dessert
2 forest
3 mountain
4 cave
5 city
6 tundra
7 planes
8 on a boat
9 another plane
10 marsh
11 hill
something I haven't thought to include
[roll0]
Edit: it is settled, you will fight on a giant sand swept cheesecake :smallbiggrin:

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 08:05 AM

Whoah, whoah, whoah, whoah, whoah. This doesn't mean anything unless I win. I didn't say that any level 10 could beat all CR 20s. I said that some level 10s could beat some CR 20s, illustrating the failures of the CR system. It only takes a few failures of the system for it to tumble to the ground.

Am I limited to martial? That sounds like work... :smalltongue:

Qube, respond to post #67, please.

drack

2011-10-26, 08:17 AM

Whoah, whoah, whoah, whoah, whoah. This doesn't mean anything unless I win.

than be sure to do so :smalltongue: if made well and played well you should have a shot, using the terrain alone should guarantee a well built character victory without excess cheese. :smallcool:

Neither party is allowed to rig the battlefield as that would grant 'east win' to that person, you start a good 300' away and roll initiative to determine who goes first.

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 08:20 AM

I should get to pick what I fight, though. Some of those are somewhat balanced. Some of those are too powerful. Then, there are those which are weak. Can I fight a dragon? I elect to fight a dragon! :smallbiggrin:

drack

2011-10-26, 08:26 AM

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 08:42 AM

your chances are better to fight a dragon than anythng else, but you have <50-50 odds of fighting one (6/14), the rolling in private is to prevent your metagaming as quib thinks it'll grant you an unfair advantage and I somewhat agree, but out of curiosity which are you considering overpowered? :smallbiggrin: (all are from MMI-MMIII)

It actually is 50-50. You forgot Gray Linnorm, which is a dragon. :smallbiggrin:

If you have immunity to Paralysis and your Dex hits 0, you're still paralyzed, correct?

To a level 10, most of them would be rather powerful. The exceptions being the Dragons (Linnorm included), the Night Twist, and the Orcwort. Depending on how you make the Vampire Troll Hunter, he'll probably be the most powerful out of all of them, seeing as how he'll have class levels.

A Maximized and Empowered Wand of Ray of Clumsiness kills most of the things on this list in one shot. :smallcool:

The Tarrasque can't actually be killed without several wishes, so I think I'd have most trouble with that one... :smalltongue:

Now, you're saying that a lone level 10 can take down a CR 20? That's Party level 2.5 vs EL 20. Why not a party of level 10s against a CR 20 (PL 10 vs EL 20)? Or a Level 20 against a CR 20(PL 5 vs EL 20)?

drack

2011-10-26, 09:08 AM

It actually is 50-50. You forgot Gray Linnorm, which is a dragon. :smallbiggrin: Technically, I tend to think of it as more of a snake, but granted

If you have immunity to Paralysis and your Dex hits 0, you're still paralyzed, correct? I believe so

To a level 10, most of them would be rather powerful. The exceptions being the Dragons (Linnorm included), the Night Twist, and the Orcwort. Depending on how you make the Vampire Troll Hunter, he'll probably be the most powerful out of all of them, seeing as how he'll have class levels.Troll hunter looses regen when it becomes vampire (no con=no regen), it's up there for silliness, and likely would be the weakest, megaworm is mostly just big, demon/devil/nightwalker could be used well and win, dragons are a cross between the two categories in many ways, linnorm, octawort and night twist should be easier, but that's just how I see it, a CR20 encounter fluctuates sure, but they'd all pose a decent challenge. In my mind it's key to recall that CR gives a range of party levels somewhere within which it's a good challenge, but that's just me.

A Maximized and Empowered Wand of Ray of Clumsiness kills most of the things on this list in one shot. :smallcool: Don't you use the min CL for wands? in which case it couldn't touch any with SR...

The Tarrasque can't actually be killed without several wishes, so I think I'd have most trouble with that one... :smalltongue: true :smalltongue:

Now, you're saying that a lone level 10 can take down a CR 20? That's Party level 2.5 vs EL 20. Why not a party of level 10s against a CR 20 (PL 10 vs EL 20)? Or a Level 20 against a CR 20(PL 5 vs EL 20)? if it's level 20 V. CR 20 and you win it shows that the CR system works, a party is fine if qube agrees, and a level 10 can easily crush a party of level 3s, so you're doing it wrong :smallbiggrin:

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: honestly CR is only supposed to work within range of 8 levels and prove a challenge though, so if you don't feel challenged by versing something CR=your level+8 than the CR system has broken down. :smallcool:

Bridgar, mind if I take your challenge of my balor versus your titan though? qube mind reffing? :smalltongue:

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 09:21 AM

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: honestly CR is only supposed to work within range of 8 levels and prove a challenge though, so if you don't feel challenged by versing something CR=your level+8 than the CR system has broken down. :smallcool:

Bridgar, mind if I take your challenge of my balor versus your titan though? qube mind reffing? :smalltongue:

It couldn't actually be a wand. It'd be too high of a level spell for wand. It'd be a staff. Unless you just made a wand of Ray of Clumsiness, then used Metamagic Spell Trigger, in which case, you just burn out the entire wand at once with Empower, Maximize, and a ton of Heightens, defeating SR and saves.

Drack, you're thinking of your adaptation of CR, where CR is a challenge for one person of that level. The true CR system is CR is a challenge for an entire party of that level. I put the ELs and Party Levels in there to illustrate my point. According to the CR system, a Party Level 5 should never defeat a level 20 encounter. Yet, it's quite simple for a level 20 to solo a CR 20.

We'd have to set up some ground rules for that battle, drack. If you get to summon, I get to gate with the exception that it caps at CR 21 and anything gated in cannot further gate. It'll basically be summoning. Titan will win every time, you'll see. :smalltongue:

drack

2011-10-26, 09:55 AM

No, my interpretation is still for parties, but parties can range from one member to maybe as many as 10+cohorts/possible followers, and I'm serious when I say a level 20 isn't party level 5, it scales such that it'd be more like party level 17 or 18. though I could certainly be convince by your 4 level 5s beating my level 20... :smallconfused: otherwise no. I'll admit that your and qube's battle is silly, and more of an intellectual challenge than a proof of anything, but if the CR system truly is so broken than you can prepare for a scope of enemies, and with out using 'broken' items (or if not without using them, than giving them to the opposing side as well) you should be able to defeat more powerful foes :smallcool: Or have I been entirely misunderstanding your argument this whole while and what you were really saying is that a CR monster being a challenge that doesn't kill the party of the same level is a failure to the system? :smallconfused:

fine, but gating you still need to negotiate with it for a few rounds mid-combat :smallamused: (I'm cool with not summoning, but I think it'd be funny to watch you try to have a respectful conversation with something while a balor is hacking at you :smalltongue: after all Balors only need summons to allow them to single out an enemy and not be attacked themselves en mass by a party)

All the same how will we determan terrain? (I like using them to my advantage), must we both play as rashly as the DMG dictates we do or can we add still further tactics, is there any prep time, lets not bother with prep time, start out a good 500' away to allow if either wishes to use ranged things (I don't, but maybe you do?), are you going good or evil titan, and just to clarify I don't think this will really prove anything, but hay why not for fun just to show what the two can do :smallbiggrin: after all from a straight on standpoint titan does more damage/ect, has more spells and the like, but lacks some on the useful things like constant true seeing which help allot in terms of overall usefulness especially combined with 100' telepathy allowing you to see all and relay it which is rather useful to a commander. :smallbiggrin:

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 10:40 AM

No, my interpretation is still for parties, but parties can range from one member to maybe as many as 10+cohorts/possible followers, and I'm serious when I say a level 20 isn't party level 5, it scales such that it'd be more like party level 17 or 18. though I could certainly be convince by your 4 level 5s beating my level 20... :smallconfused: otherwise no. I'll admit that your and qube's battle is silly, and more of an intellectual challenge than a proof of anything, but if the CR system truly is so broken than you can prepare for a scope of enemies, and with out using 'broken' items (or if not without using them, than giving them to the opposing side as well) you should be able to defeat more powerful foes :smallcool: Or have I been entirely misunderstanding your argument this whole while and what you were really saying is that a CR monster being a challenge that doesn't kill the party of the same level is a failure to the system? :smallconfused:

As per DMG, a level 20 constitutes a level 5 party. This is part of the CR/EL system. Now do you see why I'm so vehemently opposed to it? :smallconfused:

fine, but gating you still need to negotiate with it for a few rounds mid-combat :smallamused: (I'm cool with not summoning, but I think it'd be funny to watch you try to have a respectful conversation with something while a balor is hacking at you :smalltongue: after all Balors only need summons to allow them to single out an enemy and not be attacked themselves en mass by a party)

Nope. Immediate requests such as fighting a battle require no negotiations or repayment. :smallcool:

All the same how will we determan terrain? (I like using them to my advantage), must we both play as rashly as the DMG dictates we do or can we add still further tactics, is there any prep time, lets not bother with prep time, start out a good 500' away to allow if either wishes to use ranged things (I don't, but maybe you do?), are you going good or evil titan, and just to clarify I don't think this will really prove anything, but hay why not for fun just to show what the two can do :smallbiggrin: after all from a straight on standpoint titan does more damage/ect, has more spells and the like, but lacks some on the useful things like constant true seeing which help allot in terms of overall usefulness especially combined with 100' telepathy allowing you to see all and relay it which is rather useful to a commander. :smallbiggrin:

The most balanced way to deal with terrain is to simply have none at all. That way, neither player can exploit it.

I think that 500' sounds good.

Yeah, he has some okay passive abilities, they just don't apply whatsoever to a battle situation. :smalltongue:

qube

2011-10-26, 10:46 AM

sry, missed the post

This was a great example! The Mercalli Scale is a useless scale, as it means nothing. The recent Tohocu earthquake got a shocking 9.0 on the Richter Scale an only an IX on the Mercalli Scale. 18,500 people died in that earthquake. The Christchurch earthquake got a 6.3 on the Richter Scale and an X on the Mercalli Scale. 181 people died in that earthquake. Obviously, the scale can't even gauge that which it's meant to gauge, human effectyou kinda forget to mention that the Christchurch earthquake is the third-costliest earthquake (nominally) worldwide. - which Mercalli takes in account.

The Mercalli scale is just like the CR system! You're brilliant, qube! You've made the perfect analogy. Both are useless systems of attempting to quantify something that is subject to speculation. Both also have a counterpart that attempt to infer the same thing through a quantification of the cause for that effect. In the case of earthquakes, the effect is damage and the cause is the level of energy in an earthquake. In Dnd, the effect is the effect of a monster on a party and the cause is power level. Mercalli is to Richter as CR is to ECL.
I would actually say like his:
CR is Richter (virtual number representing difficulty),
Mercalli is encounter difficulty (the effect the thing as on the observers)

a 5.0 richter hitting a (poorly build/old/...) dam can kill miljions, costing trillions.(Mercali XII) - a high level party with no range vs Juvenile Arrowhawk.
a 9.0 richter on the southpole could kill zero, costing zero. (Mercali II) - the high CR monster fumbles his save vs massive damage

You're brilliant, qube! I have my moments. :smallcool:

I could use feats, if the worthwhile martial feats didn't have BAB requirements slapped onto them. You need at least level 15 to have a worthwhile martial battlefield controller (ToB aside).lower level chain trippers aren't doing a bad job either. (never even read ToB)

I didn't say that any level 10 could beat all CR 20s. I said that some level 10s could beat some CR 20s, illustrating the failures of the CR system. alevel 1 can beat allCR 20s. Globally, Cross Planar, At once. As a swift - of which he has infinite per turn.

As illustrated, that some level 10s could beat some CR 20s, doesn't illustrate the failures of the CR system at all. It could simply illustrate that those level 10s are broken.

Look, powerwise, the ONLY scale we get from WotC is this "rule of thumb: equal CR = a moderate challenge for an average party".
This obviously means that if you break this rule frequently, according to the rules WotC gave us, you are too powerful.

Bridgar, mind if I take your challenge of my balor versus your titan though? qube mind reffing? ok. no problem.

500'? sounds good? 500 it is

qube

2011-10-26, 10:48 AM

lets see about terrain [roll0]

oooooh a city.

Good vs evil duke it out in the city of Noirty. In the apocaliptic chaos, A good caster sacrifices his life to open a portal - ENTER TITAN. A ritualist on the other side opens a portal - ENTER PITFIEND - who immediately eats the ritualist for lunch.

this is the set-up:
empty plane - 200 ft buildings - Pit fiend - 50ft buildings - 100 ft market stands - 200 ft clearing- 100 ft market stands - 50ft buildings - Titan - 200 ft buildings - empty plane

all except empty plane: plenty of debree and corpses all around.
buildings: land speed/2. while grounded, get cover vs all creatures >50ft away (no cover against creatures flying 50ft or higher).
As move action you can move behind a structure (hardness 5, 55hp) blocking line of sight vs a creature >50ft away (only cover if that creature is flying 50ft or higher).
market stands (if you're medium): count as buildings
market stands (if you're large)land speed/2.
As move action you can move behind a structure (hardness 5, 20hp) grating cover vs a creature >50ft away (nothing if the creature is flying 50ft or higher).
market stands (if you're bigger then large)fastest of land speed/2 or -20ft
prone you get cover vs a creature >50ft away (nothing if the creature is flying 50ft or higher).

neither is supprized

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 11:08 AM

sry, missed the post
you kinda forget to mention that the Christchurch earthquake is the third-costliest earthquake (nominally) worldwide. - which Mercalli takes in account.

I would actually say like his:
CR is Richter (virtual number representing difficulty),
Mercalli is encounter difficulty (the effect the thing as on the observers)

a 5.0 richter hitting a (poorly build/old/...) dam can kill miljions, costing trillions.(Mercali XII) - a high level party with no range vs Juvenile Arrowhawk.
a 9.0 richter on the southpole could kill zero, costing zero. (Mercali II) - the high CR monster fumbles his save vs massive damage

See below. This analogy has gotten mangled

lower level chain trippers aren't doing a bad job either. (never even read ToB)

Eh. They're rather underwhelming when you consider

anything that can fly
anything that is ranged
anything with freedom of movement

They're really only good once they get their higher level feats like Robilar's Gambit and Defensive Sweep.

alevel 1 can beat allCR 20s. Globally, Cross Planar, At once. As a swift - of which he has infinite per turn.

As illustrated, that some level 10s could beat some CR 20s, doesn't illustrate the failures of the CR system at all. It could simply illustrate that those level 10s are broken.

See below. You're quick to call things broken because you think the CR system is the one true judge of power.

Look, powerwise, the ONLY scale we get from WotC is this "rule of thumb: equal CR = a moderate challenge for an average party".
This obviously means that if you break this rule frequently, according to the rules WotC gave us, you are too powerful.

Okay, good. We've finally gotten down to why you cling to it so dearly. It's the only system that's been published, that means it has to be right. Well, as you've seen with other things they've published, they can be wrong. If you look at 4e, their attempt to balance the game, they got rid of CR and made everything have cookie-cutter numbers because 3.5 monsters were too variable in power level. They practically admitted to their mistake. What you, as a DM, are responsible for doing, is recognizing the variable power levels and conforming to them. CR can be a guideline at times, but you're a big boy and have to think for yourself. Things aren't broken simply because they outclass CR. This was what I was trying to get at from the start; power in characters shouldn't be feared. Many players (myself, drack, and halna included) enjoy playing powerful characters. The elites of the GitP community (Cadian 9th, Cardea, Grimm Blackleaf, The Demented One, etc) all enjoy playing high power and can all judge relative power levels. If you wish to join them and gain respect as both a DM and a player, you have to ditch the CR system. It's a concrete number applied to a vastly varying measurement. It just doesn't work.

lets see about terrain [roll0]

I don't think we're going with terrain on this one...

drack

2011-10-26, 11:23 AM

As per DMG, a level 20 constitutes a level 5 party. This is part of the CR/EL system. Now do you see why I'm so vehemently opposed to it? :smallconfused: Nope, the problem lies in you dividing your level by 4, do it by relative xp of an encounter with the PCs and you'll have more luck :smallcool:

Nope. Immediate requests such as fighting a battle require no negotiations or repayment. :smallcool: Oh yeah :smallbiggrin: but than it's still not showing our skills, it would instead show that there are bigger things everywhere :smalltongue:

The most balanced way to deal with terrain is to simply have none at all. That way, neither player can exploit it. so we stand on nothingness... so 3D map that allows you to use a ground, burrow, fly, swim, ect speed to move through? :smalltongue:

I think that 500' sounds good.

Yeah, he has some okay passive abilities, they just don't apply whatsoever to a battle situation. :smalltongue: they do to a negligible extent, you could hypothetically have riddled the field with illusions beforehand so that I couldn't see you had I not true seeing, telepathy is useless, immunity to electricity is useful. In my opinion the two aren't too unevenly matched, titan's slightly better, and Balor works better with others, but they are roughly similar strength :smallbiggrin:

alevel 1 can beat allCR 20s. Globally, Cross Planar, At once. As a swift - of which he has infinite per turn.
actually only 1 swift/turn :smalltongue:

Okay, good. We've finally gotten down to why you cling to it so dearly. It's the only system that's been published, that means it has to be right. Well, as you've seen with other things they've published, they can be wrong. If you look at 4e, their attempt to balance the game, they got rid of CR and made everything have cookie-cutter numbers because 3.5 monsters were too variable in power level. They practically admitted to their mistake. What you, as a DM, are responsible for doing, is recognizing the variable power levels and conforming to them. CR can be a guideline at times, but you're a big boy and have to think for yourself. Things aren't broken simply because they outclass CR. This was what I was trying to get at from the start; power in characters shouldn't be feared. Many players (myself, drack, and halna included) enjoy playing powerful characters. The elites of the GitP community (Cadian 9th, Cardea, Grimm Blackleaf, The Demented One, etc) all enjoy playing high power and can all judge relative power levels. If you wish to join them and gain respect as both a DM and a player, you have to ditch the CR system. It's a concrete number applied to a vastly varying measurement. It just doesn't work.
yes and no, it works well enough :smalltongue:

yeaaah, some attribute liking higher power level to getting MMII before MMI, I got it years before :smalltongue:

Not so much ditch it as acknowledge it's flaws. :smallwink:

qube

2011-10-26, 11:34 AM

Many players (myself, drack, and halna included) enjoy playing powerful characters.and you've reached my point.
CR doesn't work for you because you like powerfull characters. Nothing wrong with that - until you start assuming you'res is the only right way to play and put the fault of inbalance with the CR system.

See, in my group we about keep to the powerlevel wotc perscribed, and CR works just fine.

or (slightly more catchy) you're stuck with the mess you created yourself :smallwink:

I don't think we're going with terrain on this one...but Drack said I like using them to my advantage

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 11:35 AM

qube

2011-10-26, 11:36 AM

The most balanced way to deal with terrain is to simply have none at all. That way, neither player can exploit it. so we stand on nothingness... so 3D map that allows you to use a ground, burrow, fly, swim, ect speed to move through? ok then :smallfrown:

drack

2011-10-26, 11:50 AM

No summoning, then? :smalltongue: I don't mind a ban on summoning, as I said I'd mostly only need it if there were more than one of you :smallbiggrin:

Sounds good to me. :smallbiggrin:

Sounds right, yeah. If a titan gets followers too, it'll still win, though. :smalltongue: Hmm, debatable depending on a few things (like what followers and how it uses them), titans would still be stronger, but they wouldn't be as good at working with their new found allies :smallbiggrin:

I'm fine either way terrain-wise, true I like using it, but even a blank 3D slate can be used... :smallbiggrin:

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 11:55 AM

Alright, no terrain.

Init:[roll0]

drack

2011-10-26, 01:49 PM

actually 500' gives spells an advantage... you still fine with it? :smallconfused:

[roll0]

drack

2011-10-26, 01:56 PM

ehh doesn't matter, I'm gonna greater teleport to 80' off from you and use quickened telekinesis to hurl 375lb of nothingness from thee surroundings at your face :smalltongue:
[roll0] to hit for [roll1] damage that's 'falling damage' if I recall, though it could b bludgeoning... were these your allies that I was tossing at you they'd get saves and SR, but you don't.

The Balor still until just a moment ago burst into flame right as it steps from another burst of flames 80 feet away, with a quick toss of it's head a large 'rock' lifts off the ground from behind you causing it to hurtle over your head.

qube

2011-10-26, 04:54 PM

80 feet away,
:smallconfused: ... interesting ...

drack

2011-10-26, 05:10 PM

why? more than one move action for him, I don't think he has pounce, so essentially I'm inviting a titan into melee combat :smalltongue: (there goes tactics ay? :smalltongue:)

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 06:08 PM

actually 500' gives spells an advantage... you still fine with it? :smallconfused:

[roll0]

I'm cool with it. SR, baby. SR. :smalltongue:

I guess I'm playing a good Titan. Crushing Hand tempted me, but it makes more sense for a good Titan to fight a Balor than an evil Titan to. :smallbiggrin:

drack

2011-10-26, 06:12 PM

k, admittedly I was tempted to take advantage of the 500' but it felt unfair so I just closed the gap to 80' :smalltongue:

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 06:23 PM

Your attack misses.

The titan charges and attempts a sunder on the whip (no AoO. Imp. Bull Rush and Imp. Sunder)

Opposed attack:
[roll0]
You get -4 if you're using a light weapon. Otherwise, it's just a standard attack for you.

[roll1] damage to the whip. If I hit, it shatters.

drack

2011-10-26, 07:16 PM

how did I know that was coming :smallsigh:
not light: [roll0]
how is your bonus >43? (-2 charge, +4 two handed, +4 large versus huge+37 attack, should total 58 after roll by my count... all the same the whip's probably dead...)

As it's net is extinguished the balor simply releases it, lashing out with it's sword. And you call yourself a man, my wife doesn't even succumb to such low tactics With a ghastly laugh that could unsettle even the monster under the bed he resumes using his off hand and telekinetic powers to attempt to hold the great titan..

[roll1] to hit for [roll2] damage
[roll3] to hit for [roll4] damage
[roll5] to hit for [roll6] damage
[roll7] to hit for [roll8] damage

telekinetic free grapple [roll9] (uses cha instead of str, though I'm not sure that I'm allowed to use the hand as a medium to deal [roll10] fire damage if it succeeds) and lets get that touch attack to grapple at all in before we forget :smallwink: [roll11]

confirming hypothetical criticals

[roll12]
[roll13]
[roll14]
[roll15]
none there

Thar's 12 damage, yo better watch out boy :smalltongue:

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 07:30 PM

Rolled a 15 + 37 Attack Bonus + 2 from charge + 4 from Size + 4 from 2-handed = 62, sorry. Not 64.

12 damage gets through, which puts me at 358 hp.

Make a caster check for the grapple. The entire grapple attempt fails if you don't beat SR 32.

If you beat SR, Grapple touch succeeds.

Opposed Grapple:[roll0] I shrug the grapple off.

You cannot convey 6d6 fire damage, as you're not actually touching me. It's a telekinetic grapple. It lasts for 20 rounds if my SR doesn't beat it, though... or if I break your concentration. :smallwink:

Sunder vs Longsword:

Opposed Attack:[roll1]

Damage:[roll2] If you fail the opposed attack, your sword is destroyed.

drack

2011-10-26, 07:44 PM

if I recall charge is -2 attack +2 damage :smallcool:
grapple failed, so no point :smalltongue:
Thought I couldn't, but never hurts to try :smalltongue:
chances were good that it'd hold you 1 round at most breaking free and all :smallcool: slim that you'd be caught too.
breaking the long sword too man? :smallcool: not cool.
[roll0] all the same not broken :smallcool:

The balor continues hacking and again attempts to pin the titan with his magic.
[roll1] to hit for [roll2] damage
[roll3] to hit for [roll4] damage
[roll5] to hit for [roll6] damage
[roll7] to hit for [roll8] damage

telekinetic free grapple [roll9]
touch attack: [roll10]
against SR: [roll11]
confirming hypothetical criticals

[roll12]
[roll13]
[roll14]
[roll15]
still none
Edit: sorry, forgot to retract -2 attack for fighting 2 handed, add 2 to attack rolls with sword

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 07:46 PM

Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) is +2 attack, -2 AC.

Your sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#tableCommonArmorWeaponAndShieldHar dnessAndHitPoints) is broken. It only has +1 enhancement, which gives it 12 hardness and 15 hp. I dealt more than 27 damage. It's gone. :smalltongue:

Try that round again.

drack

2011-10-26, 07:50 PM

Charge: maybe it's cuz I learned on 3.0 :smallbiggrin:

vorpal is +5 so hardness=10+2*(1+5)=22, HP=5+10*(1+5)=65 :smallcool:

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 07:53 PM

Charge: maybe it's cuz I learned on 3.0 :smallbiggrin:

vorpal is +5 so hardness=10+2*(1+5)=22, HP=5+10*(1+5)=65 :smallcool:

Nope. Vorpal costs that much enhancement but does not give that level of enhancement. You only have +1 enhancement. :smallcool:

drack

2011-10-26, 07:54 PM

I know it doesn't give the +5 enchantment, but it honestly doesn't even come into play in terms of how tough the sword it? :smallconfused:

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 07:55 PM

I know it doesn't give the +5 enchantment, but it honestly doesn't even come into play in terms of how tough the sword it? :smallconfused:

Nope, it just makes it sharper. Why would flaming or frost make it more durable either?

The only thing that makes it more durable is an enhancement bonus, which makes sense because it's enhancing the sword itself.

drack

2011-10-26, 08:00 PM

ok :smallsigh: (logic being that the sword is still more magical, and hence may have been tougher, but oh well)

lets see than, I suppose I'll need to resort to lower tactics.
Dominate monster DC 27 to resist
caster level check[roll0]

telekinetic free grapple [roll1]
touch attack: [roll2]
against SR: [roll3]

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 08:03 PM

Both failed vs SR. My turn. :smallbiggrin:

Full Attack:
[roll0], [roll1] damage
[roll2], [roll3] damage
[roll4], [roll5] damage
[roll6], [roll7] damage

89 damage gets through your DR and now you start to make Concentration checks. :smallbiggrin:

Also, Telekinetic Grapple ends because you failed the Caster Check.

drack

2011-10-26, 08:10 PM

I'm gonna re-try the same action

telekinetic free grapple [roll0]
touch attack: [roll1]
against SR: [roll2]

and DC27 dominate
[roll3] against SR

-.- dice hate me.

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 08:13 PM

Not that it mattered for that round, but there was a DC 99 concentration check accompanying both of those SLAs. :smalltongue:

Full Attack:
[roll0], [roll1] damage
[roll2], [roll3] damage
[roll4], [roll5] damage
[roll6], [roll7] damage

48 damage gets through DR and you have to make DC 58 Concentration checks for SLAs.

drack

2011-10-26, 08:24 PM

fly up 90' provoking AoO

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 08:29 PM

AoO:[roll0], [roll1] damage.

25 past DR.

We said that you can use any movement mode to move around, right? Doesn't that mean that I can charge straight up using my standard land move?

drack

2011-10-26, 09:03 PM

... oh yeah... in that case I'm flying 270' (darn, I'm used to using some terrain...)

Bridgar

2011-10-26, 09:15 PM

Change Shape into Astral Deva. (All that changes is that my speed goes up to fly 100 because Titan keeps it's massive equipment whilst shapechanged)

Fly 100' up.

qube

2011-10-27, 12:26 AM

lets see. I assume attack/damage numbers are OK

I can't find harness/hp of whips, but I recon 45 damage destroys it.

I dealt more than 27 damage. It's gone. :smalltongue:the balor has a large +1 vorpal longsword.
applicable rules (afaik):
One-handed blade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm) hardn. 10 hp 5
hp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm): multiply it by 2 for each size category larger than Medium.
Hardness and Hit Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm):Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points

Giving it hardness 12, 20 hp. which means , destroyed by the 37 damage delt.

telekinetic grapple
telekinetic grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm) would indeed require SR check

Change Shape into Astral Deva. A titan can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid.
an Astral deva is a Medium Outsider (Angel, Extraplanar, Good).
use creatures such as Medium Humanoid (Elf)

for other references, change shape can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#changeShape).

qube

2011-10-27, 04:23 AM

All that changes is that my speed goes up to fly 100 because Titan keeps it's massive equipment whilst shapechangednot exactly.... (bolded the most important parts)

It gains the size of its new form. So, you no longer get the -2 AC & attack or reach from your size (but perhaps gain a even gain a +1 if you're small).
natural weapons /movement modes/extraordinary special attacks change to new form instead of old form. you indeed don't loose the oversized weapon (as spec.ed by Titan).
retain special attacks and qualities of old form (you don't gain SA/SQ of new form)
The creature retains the ability scores of its original form no changes there
The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form (though if the new form can't speak, verbal might be difficult, ...)
Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa..
Humanoid shaped is defined as "two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head." Titans are humanoid shaped. If you would transform into a winged humanoids, however, are not no longer humanoid-shaped. and thus you'dd lose the 11 armor because the halfplate armor would fall to the ground in your space.(not even meld into new form).

Bridgar

2011-10-27, 08:15 AM

Not wasting my time, then.

Run action 120' up.

qube

2011-10-27, 08:53 AM

Not wasting my time, then.
Run action 120' up. :smallconfused: ... interesting ...
oddly running in halfplate doesn't give additional penalties (halfplate has max +0 dex; running says no dex to AC) :smallbiggrin:

drack

2011-10-27, 09:42 AM

qube

2011-10-27, 10:28 AM

lets go for a fire storm, tossing a rock at you and gaining 45' altitude. :smalltongue: (whoops, edit how high I flew last round to 180', and recall that upward motion is limited to half speed :smallcool:)as there is no terrain features, I presumed you flew backward instead of upward. - which is at full speed.

but you'll have to redo your action (or choose not to move): Firestorm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireStorm.htm)takes a full round (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime) to cast. Ya can't both be flyin' away and be castin' tha bigga spell.

Bridgar

2011-10-27, 11:12 AM

I just noticed that telekinesis requires concentration. You can't do other stuff in the rounds that you're using that against me. Which is it? Rock or Fire Storm?

qube

2011-10-27, 03:14 PM

I just noticed that telekinesis requires concentration. You can't do other stuff in the rounds that you're using that against me. Which is it? Rock or Fire Storm?telekinesis requires concentration to maintain (aka a standard action on following rounds).
Balors have 3 quickened telekinesises.

If he uses a new telekinesis, there's no need to concentration on the old one. (unless he wants 2 telekinesis active)

drack

2011-10-27, 06:10 PM

I suppose I'll be goin with the rock than :smallbiggrin: that way I can better stay out of range :smallcool: that'd be 32 damage after DR than :smallbiggrin:

Bridgar

2011-10-27, 07:13 PM

telekinesis requires concentration to maintain (aka a standard action on following rounds).
Balors have 3 quickened telekinesises.

If he uses a new telekinesis, there's no need to concentration on the old one. (unless he wants 2 telekinesis active)

That would be his fifth turn in a row of using it and doing another standard action. :smalltongue:

Alright. That means I've sustained a total of 44 damage and am at 326. You're at 108. :smalltongue:

You're 105' away. Run action right next to you. Bye-Bye. :smallwink:

drack

2011-10-27, 07:20 PM

you know I'm still allowed my 90' move action right? :smallcool:

Bridgar

2011-10-27, 07:24 PM

lets go for a fire storm, tossing a rock at you and gaining 45' altitude. :smalltongue: (whoops, edit how high I flew last round to 180', and recall that upward motion is limited to half speed :smallcool:)

save DC 26
against SR [roll0]
damage [roll1]

rock:
touch attack: [roll2]
damage: [roll3]

You switched it to 45'.

45+180-120=105
My Run is 120. I make it to you.

drack

2011-10-27, 08:08 PM

-60 actually, upward movement is halved :smallcool: otherwise double my distance.

Bridgar

2011-10-27, 08:17 PM

as there is no terrain features, I presumed you flew backward instead of upward. - which is at full speed.

but you'll have to redo your action (or choose not to move): Firestorm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireStorm.htm)takes a full round (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime) to cast. Ya can't both be flyin' away and be castin' tha bigga spell.

Ref's saying that you didn't fly up...

That or:

so we stand on nothingness... so 3D map that allows you to use a ground, burrow, fly, swim, ect speed to move through?

You just use your fly speed to go straight up at full speed and I use my ground speed to go up at full speed.

drack

2011-10-27, 08:24 PM

what ever, in that case I moved double the stated distance lets say to the right just to drop off complications :smallcool:

Bridgar

2011-10-27, 08:33 PM

Alright. 270+90-240=120

We are currently 120 feet away and it's your move.

qube

2011-10-28, 12:17 AM

Lets summerise the rounds to bringorder in the chaos: (Balor vs good Titan, with post number)

B91: wins init, teleport to 80, and Q telekin (misses)
T96: charges and sunders the whip
B97: full attack with sword and Q telekin (12 damage)
T98: sunder sword
B105: dominate (misses) and Q telekin (misses)
T106: full attack (89 damage)
B107: dominate (misses) and Q telekin (misses)
T108: full attack (48 damage)
B111: flies back to 270 (aoo for 25 damage)
T115: run 120 to 130ft distance
B117: move 90 to 220ft and telekin (misses)
T124: run 120 to 100ft distance

BALOR's turn.

rock:
touch attack: (1d20+27)[31]
damage: (15d6)[47]violant trust is not a touch attack but a normal one
(but can deal up to 30d6 by throwing 15 greatswords (and even more, if they are magical greatswords, but they get a saving throw) - sadly (unlike PCs), the titan has very good DR)

Bridgar

2011-10-28, 12:18 AM

Ah, so the titan remains effectively unharmed. Cool. :smallcool:

drack

2011-10-28, 08:34 AM

quickened telekenetic rock
attack: [roll0]
damage: [roll1]
The balor patiently waits for the oncoming onslaught casually tossing another rock at the titan.

Bridgar

2011-10-28, 09:11 AM

Run action next to you.

qube

2011-10-28, 09:20 AM

quickened telekenetic rock
attack: [roll0]
damage: [roll1]
The balor patiently waits for the oncoming onslaught casually tossing another rock at the titan.no no no no no .... the Balor has no quickened telekin's left. (link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#quickenSpellLikeAbility)): The creature can use that ability as a quickened spell-like ability three times per day. (just like the Titan can only cast 3 quickened chain lightings/day)

You'll need to redo your action ...

B91: wins init, teleport to 80, and Q telekin (misses)
T96: charges and sunders the whip
B97: full attack with sword and Q telekin (12 damage)
T98: sunder sword
B105: dominate (misses) and Q telekin (misses)
T106: full attack (89 damage)
B107: dominate (misses)
T108: full attack (48 damage)
B111: flies back to 270 (aoo for 25 damage)
T115: run 120 to 150ft distance
B117: move 90 to 240ft and telekin (misses)
T124: run 120 to 120ft distance
(edit: fixed distances)

Balor is up.

Bridgar

2011-10-28, 09:21 AM

no no no no no .... the Balor has no quickened telekin's left. (link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#quickenSpellLikeAbility)): The creature can use that ability as a quickened spell-like ability three times per day.

You'll need to redo your action ...

B91: wins init, teleport to 80, and Q telekin (misses)
T96: charges and sunders the whip
B97: full attack with sword and Q telekin (12 damage)
T98: sunder sword
B105: dominate (misses) and Q telekin (misses)
T106: full attack (89 damage)
B107: dominate (misses)
T108: full attack (48 damage)
B111: flies back to 270 (aoo for 25 damage)
T115: run 120 to 130ft distance
B117: move 90 to 220ft and telekin (misses)
T124: run 120 to 100ft distance

Balor is up.

I think he meant continued concentration to use the spell.

qube

2011-10-28, 09:26 AM

edit: btw: fixed distances: I made a calculation error: you are 120ft from each other (should it matter)

drack

2011-10-28, 10:11 AM

Nope, tossing a rock ends it, bridgar I think you win this one :smallbiggrin: (admittedly I think I could draw it out a fare bit, but in the end the result's the same).

(I posted an action before, but I suppose the forum or my connection lost it :smalltongue: oh well, good game :smallbiggrin:)

Edit: and tossing a rock discharges the spell so I'd say I'm probably out.

I had forgotten about sundering, and so had hopped to end it quickly by all out attacking and hopefully snagging your head in there with a crit (crit range 19-20 so 1/10 chance), if I redid it I would probably hold back at first and firestorm wherever you were, it would affect you or not, you'd likely leave the area to kill me, we'd dance about and I'd toss my implosion and a few dominates, than teleport back into the firestorm to face off with my full attacks, but even than my chances aren't 100% :smallcool: so good game :smallbiggrin:

environment: it gave you a large advantage even if you didn't notice. for instance when I retreated I considered 5'step out of range/teleport or some such silliness, but even before concentration checks started setting in you would just teleport beside me and than a 5' step wouldn't suffice with your 15' reach, and I'd provoke AoO every time I may have tried to put in distance. :smallcool:

Bridgar

2011-10-28, 01:42 PM

qube

2011-10-28, 02:29 PM

Titans will beat Balors in, I'd reckon, 70% of battles. Titans are just awesome. :smallbiggrin:
possibly. IMHO the balor should take more advantage of spells.

invis/flight/teleport as defensive tactics (face it, titans lacks flight (compensated by spells - to which many the balor is immune/protected from)
(a titan can levitate at 20ft per round, balors a 90/move)
a lucky dominate monster is all what's needed (granted, only 11percent (after save/SR) chance, but the balor need only survive 3 rounds to get his 30 percent win chance). the titans only effective save or die (hold monster) only has about 6 percent chance (after save/SR)
and of course the feared vorpal sword (his full attack is 4 vorpal (13ish percent instakill) and 2 entangling attacks)

the biggest weakness of the titan is his abyssal touch AC/refl save.- he relies on his SR to comensate for those. conjurations (orb of fire) and effects like Death Throes (refl30,no sr, 100 damage) (<- might force many draws)

Bridgar

2011-10-28, 09:48 PM

possibly. IMHO the balor should take more advantage of spells.

invis/flight/teleport as defensive tactics (face it, titans lacks flight (compensated by spells - to which many the balor is immune/protected from)
(a titan can levitate at 20ft per round, balors a 90/move)
a lucky dominate monster is all what's needed (granted, only 11percent (after save/SR) chance, but the balor need only survive 3 rounds to get his 30 percent win chance). the titans only effective save or die (hold monster) only has about 6 percent chance (after save/SR)
and of course the feared vorpal sword (his full attack is 4 vorpal (13ish percent instakill) and 2 entangling attacks)

the biggest weakness of the titan is his abyssal touch AC/refl save.- he relies on his SR to comensate for those. conjurations (orb of fire) and effects like Death Throes (refl30,no sr, 100 damage) (<- might force many draws)

Remember, though, he also has better healing and recovery. Cure Critical at-will and Greater Restoration 1/day is nothing to be scoffed at. No weapon can stand up to a titan, either. He'll eventually sunder it. :smallbiggrin:

qube

2011-10-29, 12:20 AM

Remember, though, he also has better healing and recovery. Cure Critical at-will and Greater Restoration 1/day is nothing to be scoffed at. No weapon can stand up to a titan, either. He'll eventually sunder it. :smallbiggrin:- Greater Restoration is a great spell, but with 10 minutes casting time, its use is limited.
- vs damage, Cure Critical is a poisoned gift: you lose a standard action. making it only usefull if the party/enemy does less damage per round then it heals. so basically... its protects your hp if your enemy is bad at dealing damage :smallconfused:
- sunder? indeed, and you can even break adamantine (nice !). (sundering btw is a melee attack, not a standard action (full attack!)). I don't dispute that titans are monsters in melee, but then again, so is the tarrasque :smallamused: . Its why a balor should try and stay out of your reach... (spells, 30ft reach whip, ...)

drack

2011-10-29, 08:35 AM

Titans are ridiculously good at sundering. Against a medium creature, they get +16 on top of their regular bonuses. Titans will beat Balors in, I'd reckon, 70% of battles. Titans are just awesome. :smallbiggrin:

balors have slightly better odds than that I just played it stupid because I forgot about sundering

possibly. IMHO the balor should take more advantage of spells.

invis/flight/teleport as defensive tactics (face it, titans lacks flight (compensated by spells - to which many the balor is immune/protected from)
(a titan can levitate at 20ft per round, balors a 90/move)
a lucky dominate monster is all what's needed (granted, only 11percent (after save/SR) chance, but the balor need only survive 3 rounds to get his 30 percent win chance). the titans only effective save or die (hold monster) only has about 6 percent chance (after save/SR)
and of course the feared vorpal sword (his full attack is 4 vorpal (13ish percent instakill) and 2 entangling attacks)

the biggest weakness of the titan is his abyssal touch AC/refl save.- he relies on his SR to comensate for those. conjurations (orb of fire) and effects like Death Throes (refl30,no sr, 100 damage) (<- might force many draws)
balor doesn't have invisibility, titan has teleport too, and map invalidated flight :smallcool: I thought of dominate, but I'm not sure if it's a full win as any hostilities end it... yes I was silly and didn't take enough advantage of my vorpal (1/10+average1/4 to hit afterward puts it at an average 2.5%)
I was actually ultimatly intending o force a draw through death throws :smallcool:

"titan healing" not useful unless I'm vary much on the defensive, and than you're just asking for me to snipe you with spells all the while, yes like dominate that can eventually get you. :smallcool:

"Its why a balor should try and stay out of your reach... (spells, 30ft reach whip, ...)" it's kinda hard when he can charge through the sky... :smallconfused:

qube

2011-10-29, 09:01 AM

I was wrong about invis, but don't see teleport with the titan.

win with dominate? stand completely still, and close your eyes ... decapitate

"Its why a balor should try and stay out of your reach... (spells, 30ft reach whip, ...)" it's kinda hard when he can charge through the sky... :smallconfused:true. and hold monster (6 percent hit chance) makes you fall ...

map invalidated flightI'm wondering how a tarrasque would fair against titan...

drack

2011-10-29, 09:11 AM

but don't see teleport with the titan.

wow, I was wrong :smalltongue: that changes quite a bit. :smallcool:

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 10:34 AM

Titan vs Tarrasque, I'm playing titan!!!

qube

2011-10-29, 12:07 PM

Titan vs Tarrasque, I'm playing titan!!!

same setting as titan vs balor?
init [roll0]

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 12:12 PM

Yep.

Init:[roll0]

Still 500' away?

qube

2011-10-29, 12:22 PM

Yep.

Init:[roll0]

Still 500' away?
sure. (might be painfull, but hey)
(edit I woudn't mind something closer (like 200ft or something), but you may choose)

you win init.

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 12:34 PM

I'm assuming that we're playing with the tarrasque having fast healing rather than regen? It would never die otherwise...

Am I allowed to use my 3/day summon nature's ally 9? That's a pretty awesome spell to have in your arsenal, if you ask me.

Can you sunder natural weapons?

qube

2011-10-29, 12:41 PM

I'm assuming that we're playing with the tarrasque having fast healing rather than regen? It would never die otherwise...
no, but if I'm reduced to -10 you may use gate to finish me (gate efreet, command him to wish me away)

Am I allowed to use my 3/day summon nature's ally 9? That's a pretty awesome spell to have in your arsenal, if you ask me.if we can start 200ft from each other (otherwise ya get way to much prep time) :smallamused:

Can you sunder natural weapons?nope: You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 12:52 PM

Better yet. We start 130' away. Sound good?

qube

2011-10-29, 01:00 PM

Better yet. We start 130' away. Sound good?cool.
now.... FIGHT

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 01:08 PM

Round 1:

Free Action: Chain Lightning [roll0] electrical damage, DC 23 Ref for half. Vs SR: [roll1]

Full Round Action: Summon Nature's Ally 9 to summon [roll2] Greater Storm Elementals (MM 3) 70 feet away from me and 60 feet away from you.

Each Storm Elemental uses a full round action to use Thunder and Lightning.

[roll3] sonic damage, DC 28 Fort for half.
[roll4] electrical damage, DC 28 Ref for half.

[roll5] sonic damage, DC 28 Fort for half.
[roll6] electrical damage, DC 28 Ref for half.

[roll7] sonic damage, DC 28 Fort for half.
[roll8] electrical damage, DC 28 Ref for half.

qube

2011-10-29, 01:15 PM

lets see ... [roll0]

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 01:18 PM

Chain Lightning is a targeted spell, thus cannot be reflected and Thunder and Lightning is not a spell at all, it's a Supernatural Ability. :smallcool:

qube

2011-10-29, 01:29 PM

your quicken chain lighting nicly reflects back to you. so you may make the reflex save :smalltongue:

next up ... a 1 round casting spell? that means start of next turn the elemental appears.
While you're wavig your hands, a tarrasque quickly approaches.

Charge (with rush) adjacent to the titan.

frightful presence: DC 36 Will save or become shaken (-2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. )

bite with power attack [roll0] for [roll1] damage, and a free grapple, [roll2]

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 01:30 PM

Read both above post and the description for Summon Nature's Ally 1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyI.htm).

Try again. :smalltongue:

qube

2011-10-29, 01:32 PM

Chain Lightning is a targeted spell, thus cannot be reflected what do you think magic missle is?

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 01:33 PM

what do you think magic missle is?

Magic Missile is the only targeted spell that it reflects. Does it say that it reflects targeted spells? No. It says that it reflects magic missile.

qube

2011-10-29, 01:34 PM

Read both above post and the description for Summon Nature's Ally 1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyI.htm).

Try again. :smalltongue:

Casting Time: 1 round
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.

and from the spell description
This spell summons a natural creature. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn.

I don't see the problem

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 01:36 PM

Casting Time: 1 round
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.

and from the spell description
This spell summons a natural creature. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn.

I don't see the problem

We'll wait for drack's ruling, then. I believe that the second supersedes the first. It acts immediately, on your turn; not, it acts on your next turn.

qube

2011-10-29, 01:40 PM

Magic Missile is the only targeted spell that it reflects. Does it say that it reflects targeted spells? No. It says that it reflects magic missile.The tarrasque’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells.

I'dd say that it refects everything that looks like a projectile spell (even if its not a ray, line, ...).

MM says A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target,
chain lighting says: This spell creates an electrical discharge that begins as a single stroke commencing from your fingertips.

hmmm ... how about we make a column 'debatable' ?

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 01:41 PM

The tarrasque’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells.

I'dd say that it refects everything that looks like a projectile spell (even if its not a ray, line, ...).

MM says A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target,
chain lighting says: This spell creates an electrical discharge that begins as a single stroke commencing from your fingertips.

hmmm ... how about we make a column 'debatable' ?

So, you're saying that a shield spell blocks chain lightning? That's news to me.

qube

2011-10-29, 01:48 PM

We'll wait for drack's ruling, then. I believe that the second supersedes the first. It acts immediately, on your turn; not, it acts on your next turn.OK, but what creature would attack?
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

(which is the beginning of your next turn ...)

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 01:49 PM

OK, but what creature would attack?
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

(which is the beginning of your next turn ...)

They wanted the summoning to take a full round to cast, but for the effects to happen immediately. Their solution was to put, in the description for the spell, "It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn."

qube

2011-10-29, 01:55 PM

So, you're saying that a shield spell blocks chain lightning? That's news to me.no, because shield says
Shield creates an invisible, tower shield-sized mobile disk of force that hovers in front of you. It negates magic missile attacks directed at you.

when I got a vest so strong that stops rocks, shards and even bullets, according to my knowledge of the english grammer (3rd lng - i could be wrong), I'dd think bullets is an example, not a singleton list

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 01:57 PM

no, because shield says
Shield creates an invisible, tower shield-sized mobile disk of force that hovers in front of you. It negates magic missile attacks directed at you.

when I got a vest so strong that stops rocks, shards and even bullets, according to my knowledge of the english grammer (3rd lng - i could be wrong), I'dd think bullets is an example, not a singleton list

No. It's more like you have a vest that protects you from slashing weapons, bludgeoning weapons, and arrows. Just because it protects you from arrows does not mean it protects you from all projectile weapons, such as bullets.

qube

2011-10-29, 02:02 PM

They wanted the summoning to take a full round to cast, but for the effects to happen immediately. Their solution was to put, in the description for the spell, "It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn."that would be
casting: full-round action

(as per spontanious metamagic)

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 02:07 PM

that would be
casting: full-round action

(as per spontanious metamagic)

No. There is no Casting: full-round action.

There are only:

Casting: 1 standard action
Casting: 1 round
Casting: x minutes

qube

2011-10-29, 02:09 PM

No. It's more like you have a vest that protects you from slashing weapons, bludgeoning weapons, and arrows. Just because it protects you from arrows does not mean it protects you from all projectile weapons, such as bullets.indeed. because vests only protect vs a ammount of force.

The way I read Carapace, it would reflect any spell where reflection seems possible (even magic missile spells). Sleep, for instance, wouldn't.

What does your interpretation of 'highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells' be (where the 'even' makes sense)

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 02:10 PM

indeed. because vests only protect vs a ammount of force.

The way I read Carapace, it would reflect any spell where reflection seems possible (even magic missile spells). Sleep, for instance, wouldn't.

What does your interpretation of 'highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells' be (where the 'even' makes sense)

My interpretation is that it not only reflects rays, lines, and cones; it even reflects magic missiles.
You must not watch many infomercials... :smalltongue:

qube

2011-10-29, 02:14 PM

No. There is no Casting: full-round action.

There are only:

Casting: 1 standard action
Casting: 1 round
Casting: x minutescheck metamagic.
a sorcerer casting maxed fireball is a full-round action. the effect is still during his turn but can't spend a move action (as per full-round action)

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 02:15 PM

check metamagic.
a sorcerer casting maxed fireball is a full-round action. the effect is still during his turn but can't spend a move action (as per full-round action)

That's specific to sorcerers casting metamagic spells. That doesn't exist at all for wizards, druids, clerics, and rangers casting regular spells.

qube

2011-10-29, 02:19 PM

My interpretation is that it not only reflects rays, lines, and cones; it even reflects magic missiles.
You must not watch many infomercials... :smalltongue:ok.
I'll give you that one (if it would reflect, you woudn't cast it in the first place
[roll0] regen heals all

qube

2011-10-29, 02:24 PM

That's specific to sorcerers casting metamagic spells. That doesn't exist at all for wizards, druids, clerics, and rangers casting regular spells.druids, clerics, ... anyone who can cast spontanious.
either way, it does exist. and it's not what the description says.

According to RAW.
- start casting a Summon9
- my turn
- at start of your turn, decide to summon 1d3 elementals and location, they may act immediately

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 02:29 PM

Alright. That benefits me because I get to place them differently, thus I get to reroll everything. :smalltongue:

You can't charge 130 feet, by the way. The Tarrasque's move speed is 20.

qube

2011-10-29, 02:33 PM

Alright. That benefits me because I get to place them differently, thus I get to reroll everything. :smalltongue:

You can't charge 130 feet, by the way. The Tarrasque's move speed is 20.
except 1/minute, when my speed is 150ft ... :smallbiggrin:

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 02:41 PM

I take 43 damage, fail the grapple, and make a will save: [roll0]

I'm shaken. You attempt to swallow me next round.

qube

2011-10-29, 02:45 PM

btw, the only non sommatic spell a titan (any alignment) has (word of chaos) has no effect on me.

and +44 vs +81, I don't think you can escape.
I think I can now grapple you to death ...

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 02:47 PM

btw, the only non sommatic spell a titan (any alignment) has (word of chaos) has no effect on me.

and +44 vs +81, I don't think you can escape.
I think I can now grapple you to death ...

Nope. :smallbiggrin:

Change Shape to a gnome.

[roll0] Greater Storm Elementals appear 70 feet away from you and 60 feet away from me (You take up many, many more squares than me.)

[roll1] sonic damage DC 28 Fort for half
[roll2] lightning damage DC 28 Ref for half

[roll3] sonic damage DC 28 Fort for half
[roll4] lightning damage DC 28 Ref for half

[roll5] sonic damage DC 28 Fort for half
[roll6] lightning damage DC 28 Ref for half

qube

2011-10-29, 02:50 PM

I'm shaken. You attempt to swallow me next round.indeed
[roll0] opposite grapple
[roll1] damage and swallowed

If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed has various consequences, depending on the creature doing the swallowing. A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not.

hmmmm titan

qube

2011-10-29, 02:51 PM

summon has somatic
you're grappled so you can't cast that

qube

2011-10-29, 02:53 PM

wait... hmmm gnome
*dies and transforms back*
ACID REFLEX

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 02:55 PM

SLAs:

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost.

From inside your stomach, I cast Maze on you. Vs SR: [roll0] :smallfrown: Would've worked too...

No Save, you're transported to an extradimensional space. :smallcool:

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 02:58 PM

The two Storm Elementals charge you:

[roll0] [roll1] + [roll2] electrical damage
[roll3] [roll4] + [roll5] electrical damage

[roll6] [roll7] + [roll8] electrical damage
[roll9] [roll10] + [roll11] electrical damage

They also free-action shock you.

[roll12] electrical damage DC 28 Fort for half.
[roll13] electrical damage DC 28 Fort for half.

I hope you realize that your stomach damage can only barely beat my DR...
1 casting of Cure serious every couple of rounds is all I need...

qube

2011-10-29, 03:04 PM

cool.

I can't do much now, except: start of your turn you get

[roll0]crushing damage(dunno if that's the same as blund?) plus
[roll1]acid.

(you may roll those yourself)
(and don't forget concentration checks ...)

qube

2011-10-29, 03:07 PM

The two Storm Elementals charge you:
I assumed you failed your DC53 concentration check. (damage while casting, loss of spells) followed by dc 20 - casting while grappled

I hope you realize that your stomach damage can only barely beat my DR...
1 casting of Cure serious every couple of rounds is all I need...
acid goes past DR...

odd match it has become, right?

Bridgar

2011-10-29, 03:10 PM

I assumed you failed your DC53 concentration check. (damage while casting, loss of spells)

acid goes past DR...

odd match it has become, right?

I finished casting. 1 round = 1 full round action. I spent a full round action on it, the effects just hadn't kicked in yet. No concentration check required. :smallcool:

Alright. Acid goes through. I need a cure serious every other round, now.

qube

2011-10-29, 03:20 PM

I finished casting. 1 round = 1 full round action. I spent a full round action on it, the effects just hadn't kicked in yet. No concentration check required. :smallcool: :smallsigh: sadly though, I believe you're considered to be casting until the effect starts.

drack

2011-10-29, 06:19 PM

qube

2011-10-30, 12:28 AM

Looks like it can't be reflected (not a line, ray, cone, or magic missile).
Technically it's -868 and a wish to kill it, not -10 ad a wish.
Elemental arrives on the beginning of bridgar's next turn.
the quickened and full round can both be done on the same round, as far as I know swift and immediate actions can occur on the same round full round actions (or should I say no full attack+quickened spell :smalltongue:)

sorry, was out for a walk... for a few hours... :smallbiggrin:ok. (i still think he needs a concentration check though - but if the referee sayeth, so it shall be done)

1. what books are storm elementals from anyway?
2. if I was going into maze, would my lunch travel with me?

drack

2011-10-30, 07:54 AM

it was MMIII or MMII, and yes your lunch is in you. :smallcool:

qube

2011-10-30, 08:08 AM

and yes your lunch is in you. :smallcool:cool.
... looking ...
pfff, I can't lower my SR vs maze in time :smallfrown:

Bridgar

2011-10-30, 09:01 AM

it was MMIII or MMII, and yes your lunch is in you. :smallcool:

No, it only targets you, not things you're grappling. Sorry, drack. I don't go with him. :smalltongue:

Even if I did, I make the int check to get out immediately...

drack

2011-10-30, 10:06 AM

oh yeah swallowing whole is a grappling of sorts :smalltongue: than you need concentration check for being grappled and taking damage :smallcool: (or rather just the higher of the two)

also I've been wondering, if in a round warrior stabs mage, than mage casts spell (lets say standard action) than do we consider that damage to have occurred during the spell and hence require a concentration check, or is that, because I've been reading it as only if they specifically time it to disrupt you or if you cast a 1+round casting time/concentration spell. :smallconfused:

also I'd call stomach damage continuous (so 10+1/2 damage)

qube

2011-10-30, 12:03 PM

fort saves(requires anything but fumble) [roll0] [roll1]

attack one of the elms
Bite [roll2] melee ([roll3])
2 horns [roll4][roll5] ([roll6][roll7])
2 claws [roll8][roll9] ([roll10][roll11])
tail slap [roll12] ([roll13])
(edit:that's 181 damage after DR)

grapple [roll14]

No, it only targets you, not things you're grappling. Sorry, drack. I don't go with him. :smalltongue:Sorry Bridgar, but I aint grappling anymore, you still are (as per swallow hole)

A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not.

edit: also your elementals are shaken unless they crit (+8 vs dc36)

also I've been wondering, if in a round warrior stabs mage, than mage casts spell (lets say standard action) than do we consider that damage to have occurred during the spell imho no.
- spell start when the wiz start casting
- spell end when the effect starts

however in this case continual damage applies.

Ttn: wins init chain lightning and start summon Elm
Trq: charge n grapple (regen: full health)
Ttn: change in gnome
Elm: use a line attack (carapace negates)
Trq: swallow gnome
Ttn: fails maze
Elm: charges
Trq: attacks an elem (827 hp left)

drack

2011-10-30, 12:49 PM

A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not.

imho no.
Yes, that was what I was recalling, so he doesn't pass through if he can succeed at casting :smallcool: logically you'd think lunch would go with you, but mostly your bowels and everything clear when you do such things, haven't you ever wondered how magi stay so thin? :smalltongue: (half joking, but I had considered that)

good, thought not, but i keep almost convincing myself otherwise :smalltongue:

Bridgar

2011-10-30, 07:25 PM

fort saves(requires anything but fumble) [roll0] [roll1]

attack one of the elms
Bite [roll2] melee ([roll3])
2 horns [roll4][roll5] ([roll6][roll7])
2 claws [roll8][roll9] ([roll10][roll11])
tail slap [roll12] ([roll13])
(edit:that's 181 damage after DR)

grapple [roll14]

Sorry Bridgar, but I aint grappling anymore, you still are (as per swallow hole)

A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not.

edit: also your elementals are shaken unless they crit (+8 vs dc36)
imho no.
- spell start when the wiz start casting
- spell end when the effect starts

however in this case continual damage applies.

Ttn: wins init chain lightning and start summon Elm
Trq: charge n grapple (regen: full health)
Ttn: change in gnome
Elm: use a line attack (carapace negates)
Trq: swallow gnome
Ttn: fails maze
Elm: charges
Trq: attacks an elem (827 hp left)

I autosucceed the concentration check vs your pitiful continuous damage and the concentration check for grapple. Your carapace doesn't negate their attacks, it explicitly states that it only blocks spells. Thunder and Lightning is a Supernatural Ability, which is explicitly not a spell.