A serious look to Law School

[TimeWizard]

This is going to be a little long and probably boring.

Are their any lawyers or law school students in the playground? I imagine not, but in case you are, this is somewhat like an anonymous-but-signed message in a bottle to you. I have always jokingly talked about law school, but lately I have been dissatisfied with my life and looking outwards. Today I knew I wanted to be a Lawyer, at least, use that as means to an end. For a few reasons, I have lately been regularly receiving decent amounts of cash that let me purchase some nice things, but it's not "real money". I'm not anywhere above my no-nice-things-money friends and I'd be baseline surviving if my really low rent went up. Today I put on a high quality Navy Pea coat which was $300. I looked at myself and thought: I want this kind of Life. A life of really nice things, good cigars, sushi with sexy women and good booze. I'm 24. I am almost done with a completely useless liberal arts degree. I was watching a show a few days ago set in a corporation that talked about "the Legal department" and in back of my mind way the lego blocks all lined up. I want a job that pays high, but I don't have a business degree nor do I have the type of skills that let people be engineers/architects. So I want to go into Corporate Law, or Business Law, or what ever type of Law large corporations hire to work high in their big city office buildings. I have no illusions about the amount of work a Lawyer does, or for that matter the kind of work a lawyer does. I like corporations. Everyone wants to be that free spirited artist person that totally quit the race and lives her life, man because corporations are greedy and heartless, but I'm no hypocrite. I have a car from a major corporation, an hd tv, a laptop, clothes, appliances, xbox, insurance, and smartphone. I drink coffee. I like corporations. I'm the kind of guy that roots for the police when people talk about speeding tickets. I want in on all of that, but like I said, it's too late for me to go to business school, and I never really was the kind of person who would do well in business. But I am intelligent. I learn quickly and remember well. Lawyer is the only "in" I see for the high class life. I am terrible at large assignments though. I balk under workloads and stress, the only two things you get at law school. But I've met lawyers and I think: My mind is bigger than yours, but you have the work drive to pull through. So now I need some feedback on people who've been around the block. Is it worth it? Can I make it? Will the money counteract the rigors?

[THAC0]

This is going to be a little long and probably boring.

Are their any lawyers or law school students in the playground? I imagine not, but in case you are, this is somewhat like an anonymous-but-signed message in a bottle to you. I have always jokingly talked about law school, but lately I have been dissatisfied with my life and looking outwards. Today I knew I wanted to be a Lawyer, at least, use that as means to an end. For a few reasons, I have lately been regularly receiving decent amounts of cash that let me purchase some nice things, but it's not "real money". I'm not anywhere above my no-nice-things-money friends and I'd be baseline surviving if my really low rent went up. Today I put on a high quality Navy Pea coat which was $300. I looked at myself and thought: I want this kind of Life. A life of really nice things, good cigars, sushi with sexy women and good booze. I'm 24. I am almost done with a completely useless liberal arts degree. I was watching a show a few days ago set in a corporation that talked about "the Legal department" and in back of my mind way the lego blocks all lined up. I want a job that pays high, but I don't have a business degree nor do I have the type of skills that let people be engineers/architects. So I want to go into Corporate Law, or Business Law, or what ever type of Law large corporations hire to work high in their big city office buildings. I have no illusions about the amount of work a Lawyer does, or for that matter the kind of work a lawyer does. I like corporations. Everyone wants to be that free spirited artist person that totally quit the race and lives her life, man because corporations are greedy and heartless, but I'm no hypocrite. I have a car from a major corporation, an hd tv, a laptop, clothes, appliances, xbox, insurance, and smartphone. I drink coffee. I like corporations. I'm the kind of guy that roots for the police when people talk about speeding tickets. I want in on all of that, but like I said, it's too late for me to go to business school, and I never really was the kind of person who would do well in business. But I am intelligent. I learn quickly and remember well. Lawyer is the only "in" I see for the high class life. I am terrible at large assignments though. I balk under workloads and stress, the only two things you get at law school. But I've met lawyers and I think: My mind is bigger than yours, but you have the work drive to pull through. So now I need some feedback on people who've been around the block. Is it worth it? Can I make it? Will the money counteract the rigors?

From what I understand, the prospects in the law field are in no way the same as they were 10 years ago. I don't think you should go into this looking for a quick way to earn money, especially if you are going to be getting into debt to get the degree.

[Mad Mask]

If you want to be a lawyer, you can look forward to 3-4 years of university to get your law degree, and that's no guarantee; you've got to be very skilled and possess good connections if you want to get hired. Especially in the current economic situation, you've got to be incredibly dedicated, motivated and hardworking; I would not recommend getting into it simply to make money.

I'm not a lawyer (it is my intended career, though, and I've deeply researched and considered it), but I can guarantee that it's not a fool-proof, get-rich-quick scheme. There is no such thing. If there were any easy, safe way to make huge amounts of money, everyone would jump on it. No matter what you do, if you want to be successful, you've got to be intelligent, resourceful and hard-working.

If your only desire is to make money, start up a business. It's hard work just like anything else, but at least your primary motivation will be in line with its whole raison d'être: making a profit.

[SDF]

I've heard an MBA has a much higher time/cost/benefit/employment ratio than a JD.

[Icewalker]

Well, if you have trouble under high workloads and high stress, it may not be the best idea. My uncle is a lawyer, and he works probably 70+ hours a week and is constantly driving himself to sickness with overwork, and he's not that unhealthy a guy.

Also, if you're planning to set yourself up to like four years of hardcore study, you should be doing it because you're interested, not because of the money. I know, I know, that sounds cliche and you've heard it a BILLION times. I know. But do you really want to spend four years drowning yourself in work which you aren't all that interested in when (and this is the important part) it isn't the only option to get what you're looking for, nor is it a guarantee you will get what you're looking for?

There are a lot of ways to end up wealthy. Spending a huge amount of time in post graduate trades like law school or medical school are a possible way to get moderately wealthy.

You could find some things you like to do, that you're interested in, and then think about how you might make them into a lifestyle. But depending on what you're interested in, that may or may not work. Which also means, try some things you have never really considered, and see if you end up interested in them: things which could be possible openings to such success. Computer Science is always a path worth considering here.

Really when you get down to it though, I think there are three things that make people really successful in terms of money.

Determination. This doesn't just mean "hard work" nor even "when things go badly I push forward". This means being willing to buckle down and put your entire life into something. To be able to put aside distractions when you have to, completely and utterly, and just sit there and WORK for days straight. Not necessarily always, and of course, don't kill yourself with overwork, but you need to be able to focus and seriously dedicate yourself to projects and see them through to the finish. It's about intensity.

If you just want a well funded life, a good salary, this will get you there. Upper middle class, you know, not rich, but you've got the money to have a nice day to day life and travel, or a REALLY nice mansiony house but in the middle of nowhere and you never go anywhere. :smalltongue:

Opportunities. Jump at them. Do the things you might hesitate to. Whenever there is any potential chance, take it. Talk to people at random. Go to events where you might get to talk to people who've done similar things, or even totally different things. Those people out there who were really really successful, who really end up running successful businesses, don't just work, they get to know people who open up more paths for them, they take advantage of every little chance and sometimes one will pay off.

Luck. That's right. No getting away from it. Luck is a serious contributing factor. It's not necessary to be lucky to be successful if you've got the determination and jump at the opportunities (although if you're unlucky enough even those may not do it: life is fickle. It sucks sometimes. That's where the 'when things go badly' part of determination is important.)


I guess that's it? I'm no expert. Nothing of the sort. Find something that you can do and that you want to do. I'm in a similar position to you, a couple years earlier, although I am in a little better position from my grandparents saving money for me for college. But, on top of my double major, I'm about to start publishing a fiction magazine, and I'm writing a comic, and I'm getting EMT training, and trying to study up on this and that in my spare time to learn things and keep an eye out for opportunities.

I guess, one could condense this into a single idea. Live. Live really hard. Like, live life so hard that it wakes up sore in the morning. Just... Do.

[Erloas]

From what I've heard in the last couple years, there are a lot of law students that are having a hard time finding jobs in the field. Mostly because everyone has the idea that being a lawyer is a good way to get rich. The realities (according to what I read) was that most law schools are really expensive and it takes a bit of luck and a lot of networking to actually get to the high paying jobs, so there are a lot of people graduating into not all that many great jobs.

One thing I have noticed starting getting into the labor market (31 now) is that there are actually a *lot* of jobs out there that pay pretty well but no very few young people even realize they exist. For some anecdotal evidence, the mines around here most everyone makes $60-70k a year, my dad knew a guy that was driving a honeywagon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywagon) and he said he should come get a job at the mines and the guy said he couldn't afford the pay cut to do it. Given, thats not expected everywhere, and one of the reasons they do pay that is because there are a lot of good jobs around here that pay that so they have to as well. Which leads to:

Another thing to keep in mind, is that it seems the more people want to live somewhere the more expensive it is to live there or the less they pay. The places "everyone wants to go to" can pay less because they know people will stay anyway because they want to be there.
Consider that a $60k can go a long ways in a smaller town in the middle of the country but will hardly pay the bills in some place like New York or San Diego. You can afford a lot more every month when you aren't paying $2500 a month in rent.

If you really want to make money, and thats all you are interested in, check out the oil fields, which are biggest right now in North Dakota but also in a number of other states. Its hard, often times almost miserable work, and a lot of hours, but they make piles of money. I've heard more then a few oil workers around here complaining about not having the time to spend all the money they are making. And it seems like almost all of them are driving $40k-60 trucks as commuter vehicles...
If your only goal is to make money, especially at this point in time, thats where I would look.

[Lord Seth]

If you want to be really getting money, go MD.

[thubby]

law is currently the most over-saturated market available.
if your interest is money, stay away.

[AtlanteanTroll]

From what I've heard in the last couple years, there are a lot of law students that are having a hard time finding jobs in the field. Mostly because everyone has the idea that being a lawyer is a good way to get rich. The realities (according to what I read) was that most law schools are really expensive and it takes a bit of luck and a lot of networking to actually get to the high paying jobs, so there are a lot of people graduating into not all that many great jobs.



law is currently the most over-saturated market available.
if your interest is money, stay away.

Yeah. It's not just recently graduated students either. My dad has a buddy who went to Harvard Law and he hasn't had a case in months.

Of course, not every one with a Law Degree becomes a lawyer, but that's treading into a not so board-friendly zone.

[Mikhailangelo]

I'm finishing my LLB now, but my experiences will be entirely useless to you, seeing as I'm Scottish, and thus not attaining crippling debt as a result of this endeavour, and have only looked into careers outwith law in the frame of what can happen in Scotland.

Further, while I would happily do a traineeship, or even work with a commercial firm for a few years, I'm aiming at going to the bar before I'm 28, because I really can't stand the thought of endless office work.

[SDF]

If you want to be really getting money, go MD.

You have to be kidding.

[thubby]

if your soul interest is money, accounting is hilariously profitable for the difficulty. and everyone wants engineers. even non-engineering jobs like engineers.

[Lord Seth]

You have to be kidding.Why would I be kidding? From my understanding, MDs are pretty much guaranteed to have high salaries right out the door (an annual income in the six figures doesn't seem uncommon) and don't have much trouble finding employment.

Mind you, if you're talking about all the money you have to pay to get an MD, that's another matter...but the point is, once all is said and done, you're pretty much guaranteed a job with high pay.

[SDF]

First, he is getting a liberal arts degree. You can get into medical school with one, but you need to have taken a decent amount of science. Usually through biochemistry. You need to have references, community service/extra curricular, and good grades/test scores just to get in. I'm not saying the OP doesn't have that, but unless he was looking to do it beforehand it doesn't apply to him.

Following that you need money, way more than law school requires. A JD is a three year post grad degree while an MD is a four year post grad degree. (not only does each year cost more, but there is more of it) A JD can jump right into a job after graduating, but a MD needs to do well in medschool to be accepted to a residency where they don't make much money at all. A residency can be anywhere from about three to seven years. If you want to make good money as a doctor you need to get into a competitive residency program which usually takes longer. Then you need to do well in that and typically get a fellowship position. To get GOOD money as a doctor you need to be in a private practice in a large with a good specialty. Years and years off, plus super competitive to boot. Most doctors make decent money, but unless you come from a privileged background or get some outstanding scholarships most US doctors I know don't get their loans paid off until their late 30's to 40's. A medical degree is a TERRIBLE plan to get rich. The vast majority work for hospitals, and can afford nice things later, but there are degrees that won't nearly bankrupt you, drive you crazy from studying and work, and make you far and away more money than an MD. Not to say that an MD is despotic. If you are frugal with that kind of money you could save over a million in a decade and still have some nice stuff. But, it is a pretty silly suggestion for someone that wants to make money.

[Lord Seth]

Well I was being a bit facetious on the basis that getting an MD is hard, takes a lot of money, and it can be hard to even get into the program in the first place. But what was true and remains true--and this is what I was being serious about, perhaps I should have clarified that portion--is that an MD equals an almost guaranteed high salary without much risk of unemployment.

[Castaras]

At least round here, the outlook for lawyers and money is bleak unless you're in one of the massive corporations in London as a top lawyer. And the majority of work that a Lawyer is wanted for is the lower paying criminal work. Not sure what it'd be like in America, but a better bet round here if you just want a job with potential big bucks is Finance.

[CoffeeIncluded]

If you want to make a lot of money quickly, being a lawyer probably wouldn't be a good idea. Yes, you make a lot of money, but it takes a while. Also, you work. A lot. Both my parents are lawyers and they work close to home and they are literally working all the time.

My personal advice is to choose a job that you'll enjoy; don't choose just on the basis of money. Do you know all the work that lawyers do? Do you know all the different legal specialties?

[Lord Seth]

How's the outlook for paralegals compared to lawyers? I'm pretty sure it doesn't pay as well, but is it easier to get jobs as one?

I ask this because some of the work is similar, and some paralegal told me a bunch of people who are paralegals eventually become lawyers, so paralegal might be an easier way to get into it, and if you really like it you could go lawyer.

[Starwulf]

Why would I be kidding? From my understanding, MDs are pretty much guaranteed to have high salaries right out the door (an annual income in the six figures doesn't seem uncommon) and don't have much trouble finding employment.

Mind you, if you're talking about all the money you have to pay to get an MD, that's another matter...but the point is, once all is said and done, you're pretty much guaranteed a job with high pay.

I have a few friends/relatives that are Doctors, and universally, they all say the same thing: Don't become a Doctor if you're in it for the money. At least not in the short-term. Most Doctors nowadays end up with so much debt, that they are paying it off(and pretty much living the poor life) for next 10 to 15 years. Depending on the amount of schooling, and where you go, Doctors nowadays can easily accumulate upwards of 200k in debt. Granted, once you're out of debt, you are living the good life, but it's ramen noodles and hot-dogs for quite a while.

[Asta Kask]

Plastic Surgeons are the one exception, I believe. They make pretty good money from the beginning.

[SDF]

A paralegal in the US is a certification and an AA degree. They make maybe double minimum wage in a pretty diluted market. You still need a bachelors and test scores to get into law school so why get another needless degree in the interim?

Plastic surgeons still need to go through a surgical residency which is at least as long as the medical degree itself takes. Again as a resident you don't make much money at all. The reason that all plastic surgeons make more compared to other doctors on paper is that they specialize in expensive procedures that usually aren't covered by HMO's/NHS or whatever health service/provider a person has. This means they have private practices which pulls in much more money than hospital work. It also means the market is ridiculously competitive and nonexistent outside of large metropolitan areas. Rural doctors make the least amount of money statistically and there is no demand for facelifts in those areas. If you are going to spend that kind of money you would probably go out to a city to have it done anyway. Surgery specialties tend to pay the most while pediatrics pays the worst.