Pathfinder Fighter(THF)/Barbarian(Invul. Rager)

[ranger557]

Hey all, my other gaming group got disbanded, so I joined a new group as a Human Barbarian/Fighter. Whats a good build to run a front liner? I like being melee so i figure this would be a good choice with the archetypes from APG. I'm using the THF Fighter and the Invulnerable Rager archetypes. what levels should I leave and enter between Fighter and Barbarian? Here is what I build already at the beginning of the session. 25 point buy

Human Barb1/Ftr3

Str: 18
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7

Feats: Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Raging Vitality, and Weapon Focus (Greatsword)

What other feats should I get or do you guys recommend with this build? I choose the stats because i wanted him to be well rounded but vain and so i got him the "charming" trait lol (RP of course). what should the next levels be? Also only pathfinder books are allowed, so thats why I feel a little stuck don't know which are the best feats for a barbarian/fighter build. Thanks and happy gaming!

[Eldariel]

Meh. How many sources are you working with? I'd still say go for Improved Trip; cut a point somewhere, mayhap Wis, and ramp up to 13 Int for Combat Expertise > Greater Trip and using a Guisarme; Barbarians naturally shine in combat maneuvers so it wouldn't be bad. Obviously should have Combat Reflexes too.

PF Fighter...offers very little beyond level 4. Mayhap go to level 6 but that's the utmost limit I'd consider (Weapon Training really isn't anything special). Level 4 gets you full movement in Medium Armor (e.g. Mithril Fullplate, biggest you'll ever need), 3 bonus feats, Bravery & all that.


Oh, and don't forget to pick up Beast Totem-line from Barbarian for some mobility in combat. Strength Surge and Spellbreaker-line is also nice.

[Lord Bingo]

three levels of Two-Handed Fighter is good for the Overhand Chop ability but it is only really worth it if you rely on charges to do damage. Personally I would go straight Barbarian and gain maximum benefit from Rage Powers.

In any event, you should ditch the Greatsword in favor of a Falchion. Most of your damage potential will inevitably be a result of strength bonuses (straight ability bonus + Power Attack) which multiply on a critical hit, and hence you should prefer the Falchion for its greater critical threat range.

Regarding feat choice, you should simply consider yourself a Barbarian. The Extra Rage Power feat is an excellent choice as Rage Power (especially in latter levels) are almost always better than feats. That said, you should get the Raging Vitality feat (keep raging while unconscious) as it will keep you alive longer.

Furthermore, while I can certainly understand why you would want a well rounded character I would strongly advise against putting points in Intelligence and Wisdom. Also, for the sake of keeping you alive you might consider being a Half-Orc, to get ferocity. Darkvision is nice too.

For ability scores I would go: Str 17, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 7. With racial adjustments and the +1 bonus from being a level four character it becomes: Str 20, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 7.

[Eldariel]

three levels of Two-Handed Fighter is good for the Overhand Chop ability but it is only really worth it if you rely on charges to do damage. Personally I would go straight Barbarian and gain maximum benefit from Rage Powers.

In any event, you should ditch the Greatsword in favor of a Falchion. Most of your damage potential will inevitably be a result of strength bonuses (straight ability bonus + Power Attack) which multiply on a critical hit, and hence you should prefer the Falchion for its greater critical threat range.

Regarding feat choice, you should simply consider yourself a Barbarian. The Extra Rage Power feat is an excellent choice as Rage Power (especially in latter levels) are almost always better than feats. That said, you should get the Raging Vitality feat (keep raging while unconscious) as it will keep you alive longer.

Furthermore, while I can certainly understand why you would want a well rounded character I would strongly advise against putting points in Intelligence and Wisdom. Also, for the sake of keeping you alive you might consider being a Half-Orc, to get ferocity. Darkvision is nice too.

For ability scores I would go: Str 17, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 7. With racial adjustments and the +1 bonus from being a level four character it becomes: Str 20, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 7.

...tanking your Will-saves and closing out the Combat Expertise tree (and thus the best way to protect yourself from being melee attacked in the first place; reach + trip = enemy never gets an attack edgewise unless they can bypass your AoO) might not be the best way to stay alive. Guisarme is most likely stronger than either Falchion or Greatsword. Reach is very powerful in the hands of someone with high strength and the right feats.

[Lord Bingo]

...tanking your Will-saves and closing out the Combat Expertise tree (and thus the best way to protect yourself from being melee attacked in the first place; reach + trip = enemy never gets an attack edgewise unless they can bypass your AoO) might not be the best way to stay alive. Guisarme is most likely stronger than either Falchion or Greatsword. Reach is very powerful in the hands of someone with high strength and the right feats.

Tripping in Pathfinder is not as effective as in regular 3.5, and while I certainly agree that reach is a good thing I tend to think of reach weapons as defensive weapons. It only makes matters worse, that a determined foe will simply close the gap, and then you are back to square one.
-Which brings us to defense: a raging Barbarian is never going to have great armor class and trying to optimize to avoid getting hit is in my experience a waste of feats and abilities. Raging Barbarians get hit!

[Eldariel]

Tripping in Pathfinder is not as effective as in regular 3.5, and while I certainly agree that reach is a good thing I tend to think of reach weapons as defensive weapons. It only makes matters worse, that a determined foe will simply close the gap, and then you are back to square one.

Well, if a foe closes the gap, they will:
- Take a free AoO
- Be at even footing due to 5' steps unless you got your back in a corner (it's a free action to drop your Guisarme and a move action that doesn't provoke AoO to draw Falchion without Quick Draw in that case, btw)

So I wouldn't be terribly worried. At worst you get a free attack and then slug it out (Barbs are pretty good at slugging out).

It's also worth noting that while Trip isn't as good as in vanilla, it's still fairly strong on Barbarians compared to the alternatives. Barbarians get their strength bonus from Rage to combat maneuver checks making them still the best combat maneuver users in the game and when that's combined with the massive reduction of size modifiers & you investing three feats in it, Tripping still works.

The biggest difference is that it's more expensive; 3 feats instead of 2, requires level 6 to get full benefits + costs AoO to get the free attack (since you have Combat Reflexes anyways tho, that's hardly a big worry). Once you have Greater Trip, it's much like in 3.5 with Improved Trip; +4 to Trip-checks, free attack on a successful trip and no AoOs. And the extra feat gets you +2 against Trip-checks; not exactly the best ever but better than nothing. It's Coreish PF and you have PF bonus feats; what else are you gonna do? Pick up Vital Strike? Or maybe some of the Critical Focus nonsense? There's still nothing else decent so might as well.

[Lord Bingo]

... what else are you gonna do?
Well, I would never dream of picking up Vital Strike or Critical Focus. Personally I would invest in the widest chest possible and get up close and personal. I would not invest feats and abilities in armor class.

I must admit that tripping does not look as bad as I initially thought it, but I still would not take that route. I would probably look into getting as many attacks of opportunity as at all possible and then (if I have until level 12) go for the Come Get Me rage power.

[Eldariel]

Well, I would never dream of picking up Vital Strike or Critical Focus. Personally I would invest in the widest chest possible and get up close and personal. I would not invest feats and abilities in armor class.

I must admit that tripping does not look as bad as I initially thought it, but I still would not take that route. I would probably look into getting as many attacks of opportunity as at all possible and then (if I have until level 12) go for the Come Get Me rage power.

Well, Come Get Me works just fine with anything. As long as you have Combat Reflexes, it's an excellent defense. Indeed, its 3.5 counterpart, Robilar's Gambit, was always a high pick for any manner of Fighter or Barbarian. It doesn't really require building around it.

You can really get most of a decent 3.5 Barbarian together in Beast Totem + Come And Get Me and some feats. Except you miss out on the charge multipliers so you gotta really work to get actual damage. And then there's some really good ones like Spell Sunder. And the things are really spaced out; you only get Pounce on 10 which is kinda late (first iterative and Haste has been around for a while) and old Improved Trip only on 7 ('cause no feat on 6). Still, it works alright.

[ranger557]

Ok so from you guys discussing, Reach is always a good thing and if you are going melee, go more barbarian...........and i do agree with the sense of the rage power, "pounce" and "come and get me" and reach is a good way to go defensive and help my allies and smack people........but that wasnt i had in my mind lol. to clarify ALL pathfinder books are allowed from PAZIO. Also I wanted my character combat-wise to go into the fry with his greatsword and do as much damage as he can. Therefore, i knew i had to sacrifice the levels in Fighter (THF archetype) for more damage and versatility Barbarian (Invul. Rager archetype), and i know those rage powers will help in the long run. However, I wanted not to go the typical route of all barbarian and reach weapon........lol.

Also how the about Spellcaster feats? Disruptive, etc? Also the Step up chain? Also since am the melee, might as well get toughness, got a 3 on one roll :(. Any thoughts pertaining to this? Thanks

So since I'm already at Barb1/Ftr3? I was thinking of going the next level of fighter to get the feat? and the next levels in barbarian t get to level 10. So like this would be the progression for my levels Ftr1/Barb9/Ftr2/Barbxx or should i go Ftr1/Barb4/Ftr2/Barbxx? Or do you guys think there is a better progression?

[Eldariel]

I'd just take Fighter 4 and then switch to Barbarian. Really, Fighter doesn't give you much in ways of damage for a two-hander; it's more efficient to just go all Barbarian probably. And you don't necessarily have to use reach weapon but given basically all of your damage comes from bonuses anyways, it's obviously the better choice.

Toughness...ehh, doesn't seem worth it. Then again, if you aren't gonna pick Trip-line, I dunno what you wanna do with your feats so whatever. Do pick up Come And Get Me with Combat Reflexes tho; there's very little reason not to.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'll echo the "Go pure Barbarian" sentiment. Remember, invulnerable rager gives you DR based on half your barbarian level. That really adds up if you face a lot of mooks. Also, faster access to pounce, yadda yadda yadda.

[ranger557]

Ok well i was thinking fighter8/barbarian12? so at my current build, I have Barb1/Ftr3 and would continue Ftr1/Barb3/Ftr4/Barb8, so i could pick up Backswing and since i'm going Invulnerable Rager, I could get the Improved Stalwart feat chain to boost and help my DR, from my fighter feats. What do you guys think is it viable? Or is full Barbarian really that much better? If I went the Barbarian route instead what would I focus on? Thanks

[Psyren]

Or is full Barbarian really that much better? If I went the Barbarian route instead what would I focus on? Thanks

In Pathfinder, yeah it is - especially for Invulnerable Ragers.

Or if you're going to add some fighter levels in, dip a maximum of 4 for armor training and the feats.

[Eldariel]

In Pathfinder, yeah it is - especially for Invulnerable Ragers.

Or if you're going to add some fighter levels in, dip a maximum of 4 for armor training and the feats.

I like the first level of Armor Training TBH; you're forced to get Fast Movement anyways since PF = no trades, and you'll want to wear a medium armor so getting Armor Training means you remain as mobile as ever for practically free. And god knows, mobility is all for melee types since the turn you don't get to attack range you do a grand total of 0 damage. The Heavy Armor improvement is obviously quite pointless since you'll use Mithril armor later on anyways.

[Psyren]

There are trades in PF - they just get prepackaged into comprehensive archetypes, rather than the more à la carte ACF.

For instance, the Armored Hulk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/armored-hulk), Sea Reaver (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/sea-reaver) and True Primitive (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/true-primitive) all give up fast movement.

[Larpus]

I like the first level of Armor Training TBH; you're forced to get Fast Movement anyways since PF = no trades, and you'll want to wear a medium armor so getting Armor Training means you remain as mobile as ever for practically free. And god knows, mobility is all for melee types since the turn you don't get to attack range you do a grand total of 0 damage. The Heavy Armor improvement is obviously quite pointless since you'll use Mithril armor later on anyways.
That said, being able to full-attack after walking up to 12 squares (especially when you'll always have a -5 "shortsword" attack) is considerably better than just having a single attack after moving up to 16 squares.

So Barbarian 10 asap, you can dip your nacho on the Fighter sauce after that if you're so inclined.

[Psyren]

So Barbarian 10 asap, you can dip your nacho on the Fighter sauce after that if you're so inclined.

That... was oddly erotic...

[Eldariel]

That said, being able to full-attack after walking up to 12 squares (especially when you'll always have a -5 "shortsword" attack) is considerably better than just having a single attack after moving up to 16 squares.

So Barbarian 10 asap, you can dip your nacho on the Fighter sauce after that if you're so inclined.

Just have your cake and eat it too. Though I think Fighter 3 is already in play so we're talking Barb 10/Fighter 3 at best.

[Psyren]

Since a Fighter 3/Barb X and a Fighter 4/Barb X will have the same DR (8/-), the OP simply has to decide if one more fighter feat is worth giving up a rage power and a hit point.

But I would definitely not go past F4; Invulnerable Ragers are just that good.

[Eldariel]

...I just realized Two-Handed Fighter doesn't get Armor Training. Well, meh. For reference (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/two-handed-fighter). I guess Backswing isn't bad if that's what interests you. Other than that, I don't see much of interest this side of pre-epic; you already have Overhand Chop for some extra on charging.

[grarrrg]

General note for everyone:
He has already traded away Armor Training by taking THF-Fighter archetype.


Ok well i was thinking fighter8/barbarian12? so at my current build, I have Barb1/Ftr3 and would continue Ftr1/Barb3/Ftr4/Barb8, so i could pick up Backswing...

I agree with this, Backswing would be useful for this build. It gives Double Str-mod damage on all attacks after the first in a round.
Fighter 4 is already a given, and Barb levels 13-16 don't give anything super-awesome (2 rage powers, already have 6, 2 points more DR already have 6).
I highly recommend 8 total levels of Fighter in this case. You should space the Fighter levels out however.
From Barb 1/Fighter 3, I would take the next 3 levels in Barb, to start getting DR and Rage Powers (not to mention longer Rage time).

[Chained Birds]

I think we are forgetting something here folks. What if he goes Barbarian 12/ Fighter 2-4? And he spends those extra feats on Extra Rage Powers?

[Psyren]

I think we are forgetting something here folks. What if he goes Barbarian 12/ Fighter 2-4? And he spends those extra feats on Extra Rage Powers?



Or if you're going to add some fighter levels in, dip a maximum of 4 for armor training and the feats.

:smalltongue:

[ranger557]

Well i am going to try to convince my dm, since i barely entered the game if i can change my levels to barbarian. Also yes, i was going fighter8/barb12 because im going the THF route, so it made the most sense to me. However, i would lose a considerable amount of DR but i could fix that with improved stalwart feat and by lvl 20 depending, i could get DR 16 right? How does that sound? Thanks for the input

[Larpus]

Well i am going to try to convince my dm, since i barely entered the game if i can change my levels to barbarian. Also yes, i was going fighter8/barb12 because im going the THF route, so it made the most sense to me. However, i would lose a considerable amount of DR but i could fix that with improved stalwart feat and by lvl 20 depending, i could get DR 16 right? How does that sound? Thanks for the input
Well, you can do that with Imp Stalwart, however not only activating the feat either dampers your to-hit considerably (might hurt your dpr) or locks you out of AoO (won't make you useless, but you can no longer block your enemies' path as easily); but also to get there you have to take two feats of questionable worth.

This is especially true about Endurance: getting in and out of medium armor is pretty fast, so you'll never need it unless your DM is found of night ambushes. But even so, afaik (and my DM allows), there's nothing stopping you from using a set of light armor under your medium one, so when you do have your medium armor on, you take its bonus as it's bigger, but when sleeping you at least maintain a +4AC.

Yes, I know there are other benefits to Endurance, but I can count the amount of times such situations came into play (regardless of the PC having the feat or not) with only one of DeVito's Penguin hands. And in case the campaign is all about survival and being on the edge, chances are it won't make that big of a difference anyway.

Not saying don't do it, but think carefully before you do.

[ranger557]

I have been thinking and planning on if I should go Ftr/Barb or full Barb. This is what I got from both builds. Maybe this can help me out to figure out which would be more beneficial for my group since I'll be the primary tank and melee guy. We do have a pally but her stats are spread to cover different niches.

Here is the Human Ftr(THF)8/Barb(Invul.Rager)12

Barb1/Ftr4/Barb2-4/Ftr5-8/Barb5-12

Char Lvl 1 Barb1: Iron will, (Human)Raging Vitality
Char Lvl 2 Ftr1: Power Attack
Char Lvl 3 Ftr2: Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Improved Initiative
Char Lvl 5 Ftr4: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Endurance
Char Lvl 7 Barb3: Diehard
Char Lvl 9 Ftr5: Stalwart
Char Lvl 10 Ftr6: Combat Expertise
Char Lvl 11 Ftr7: Improved Stalwart
Char Lvl 12 Ftr8: Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Char Lvl 13 Barb5: Step up

Abilities:
Fighter: Shattering Strike +2, Overhand Chop, Weapon training (THW) +1, Backswing
Barbarian: Rage 29rds/day, 6 rage powers, DR 6/- (but can go up to 16 with Improved stalwart), cold resist 3, Greater Rage

Here is the Human Barbarian(Invul.Rager)20

Barb 1: Power Attack (Human)Raging Vitality
Barb 3: Improved Initiative
Barb 5: Step Up
Barb 7: Iron Will
Barb 9: Combat Reflexes
Barb 11: Dazing Assault
Barb 13: Open
Barb 15: Open

Abilities: Mighty Rage, 45rds/day, 10 rage powers, DR 10/-, Cold resist 5


Either way from the different Barbarian builds, I'm going for the Beast Totem powers, Guarded life, Clear mind, Come and get me, and Flesh Wound powers. So what do you think of the two builds and the powers I chosen? I know and feel in the end that full Barbarian would be better because of getting the powers and my abilities faster in the early levels right? Thanks and happy gaming! :smallbiggrin:.

[ranger557]

Should I start a new thread since I posted late about my builds?

[Paul H]

Hi

Friend of mine visiting had a few ideas:

"Hello there,

Unfortunately I haven't got all my books with me at the moment but this might help. I'd strongly recommend going pure Barbarian, as have many others.

Traits: There are two traits in Dwarves of Glarion that are seriously worth considering. The Frostborn regional trait grants a +4 bonus to saves against natural cold and a +1 trait bonus on saves against all other cold effects. This trait does not require the character to be a dwarf but they must originate in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings. This would liekly make the character a dwarf of a human of the Ulfen social group.

An Ulfen Invulnerable Rager could then benefit from at least 4 different thematic feats in the Inner Sea World Guide (updated/expanded edition) that grant bonuses against cold, fear, spells etc. I don't have my copy with me so I can't give exact names for now".

Also, Land of Linnorn Kings is out in January. It'll probably have even more useful stuff for Barbarians.

Thanks
Paul H
(Italics are direct quotes)

[ranger557]

Hey Paul h, thanks for the advice as well. Yeah after looking over it , I'm thinking of going full barbarian. So what do you think of the lvl 20 build i made for that and the rage powers? I'll look into the other books you said and check out those feats.

[Larpus]

The build looks good to me, not a big fan of Flesh Wound, but I admit it is useful (I just dislike that I have to use it before I see the damage, so I'll soak half of an epic attack of.....10 damage).

Other Rage powers to consider: Superstitious, Eater of Magic, Witch Hunter (if you fight spellcasters often enough) and Spell Sunder might be very interesing, especially with Strength Surge.

Intimidating Glare + Terrifying Howl might also be a good idea depending on your Intimidation.

And now, to play the devil's advocate: Do consider grabbing 3 levels of Horizon Walker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/horizon-walker), grabbing desert as your terrain, this will give you immunity to fatigue, which means that you can freely end Rage with impunity. It's easy to qualify (though Endurance does suck).

That leaves you with Barbarian 17, now this next part is all grarrrg's idea, so major kudos to him: Barb 17 only gives you Tireless Rage, which you already have with the above trick, allowing you to take pretty much anything else, maybe a Fighter level to regain the wasted feat in Endurance?

Or maybe...Living Monolith (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/living-monolith), putting that Endurance to good use and allowing you to grow large (same effect as Enlarge Person) as a swift action 3/day. It may also be considered that, since the ability is not actually Enlarge, you can be enlarge further with a use of the normal spell.

[Paul H]

Hi

My friend just sent me these, they may be of some use:

"From the Inner Sea World Guide updated/expanded edition

Altitude Afinity: automaticaly acclimited to high altitudes
Desparate Battler: +1 to hit and damage when fighting alone (no allies within 10' and no aid another bonus).
Focussed Discipline: +2 to all saves against fear and if you pass a fear save you gain +2 to hit, damage and CMB against the scary thing for 1 round.
Rugged Northerner: Treat extreme cold as severe cold, severe as just cold, ignore normal cold weather.
Survivor: +5 on rolls to stabilise (but requires Diehard so is that redundant?) and 1/day convert a critical recieved into a normal hit. Due to the possible redundance there might be an APG feat that does this better".

Think they're all feats.
Hope they helped
Paul H

[Doc Roc]

I'll echo the "Go pure Barbarian" sentiment. Remember, invulnerable rager gives you DR based on half your barbarian level. That really adds up if you face a lot of mooks. Also, faster access to pounce, yadda yadda yadda.

This man, and Eldariel.
They are sage.


Hi

My friend just sent me these, they may be of some use:

"From the Inner Sea World Guide updated/expanded edition

Altitude Afinity: automaticaly acclimited to high altitudes
Desparate Battler: +1 to hit and damage when fighting alone (no allies within 10' and no aid another bonus).
Focussed Discipline: +2 to all saves against fear and if you pass a fear save you gain +2 to hit, damage and CMB against the scary thing for 1 round.
Rugged Northerner: Treat extreme cold as severe cold, severe as just cold, ignore normal cold weather.
Survivor: +5 on rolls to stabilise (but requires Diehard so is that redundant?) and 1/day convert a critical recieved into a normal hit. Due to the possible redundance there might be an APG feat that does this better".

Think they're all feats.
Hope they helped
Paul H

These are... not very good, really.

[ranger557]

I had the game session this past friday with my group and i stayed full Barbarian. Thanks for the info guys. However, i think the dips into Horizon walker
would be to much cheese to get rid of the fatigue from rage and get "rage hopping". As of right now I'm lvl 4 and this is what i got.

1. Raging Vitality, Power Attack (free)Improved Initiative
2. RP(Lesser Beast Totem)
3. Iron Will
4 RP(Guarded Life)

[Larpus]

I had the game session this past friday with my group and i stayed full Barbarian. Thanks for the info guys. However, i think the dips into Horizon walker
would be to much cheese to get rid of the fatigue from rage and get "rage hopping". As of right now I'm lvl 4 and this is what i got.

1. Raging Vitality, Power Attack (free)Improved Initiative
2. RP(Lesser Beast Totem)
3. Iron Will
4 RP(Guarded Life)
Yes, it is sort of cheesy, though to be honest, that's the only way most of the once/rage powers can be truly worth it (bad design I say).

And other than that, with Raging Vitality, I don't think you'll ever really need to worry about the fatigue, you'll be tired for what? Couple minute tops?

[ranger557]

True its truly is cheesy not sure if i should cheese it out. However, yeah some of the once/rage powers do need it to be worth while but then again, its all good.

Also the Raging vitality is just to keep me alive if i go unconscious and of course the bad game design that they did that to the barbarian to lose rage when he is unconscious, only to feat tax so you won't die lol.

[Eldariel]

Yes, it is sort of cheesy, though to be honest, that's the only way most of the once/rage powers can be truly worth it (bad design I say).

Cheesy on what planet? You still give up future Rage Powers and Rage Power Advancement.

[Larpus]

True its truly is cheesy not sure if i should cheese it out. However, yeah some of the once/rage powers do need it to be worth while but then again, its all good.

Also the Raging vitality is just to keep me alive if i go unconscious and of course the bad game design that they did that to the barbarian to lose rage when he is unconscious, only to feat tax so you won't die lol.
Ah, no, no, I wasn't questioning Raging Vitality, it's a damn good feat, it fixes the main PF Barbarian problem and is also a Toughness-like effect, not bad.

I said that, since you do have the feat, you won't be knocked out of Rage when you fail a save against a sleep or similar, which sucks big time, because in battle, the amount of time you spend fatigued is just horrible. However, outside it (which is the only time you'll be Rageless with Raging Vitality) it's very minor and trivial since it's unlikely that you'll be facing many battles less than 1 or 2 minutes apart from each other.

I played a Barbarian in couple one-shot campaigns before the APG was out and I must say that limp like a useless lump of flesh for 4+ rounds is not fun, thank goodness for Raging Vitality!


Cheesy on what planet? You still give up future Rage Powers and Rage Power Advancement.
It's a pretty specific PrC (and one that clearly doesn't add anything else significant) and, unless your character comes from the desert or has been there for a long time, there is no sensible and in-game way he has Terrain Mastery (desert).

Also, it's a trick to get early access to Tireless Rage.

In my book, that does qualify for cheese, though as I said, that is the only way to make the once/rage Rage Powers useful and hold any amount of water, so it's not that cheesy due to bad design.

[Eldariel]

It's a pretty specific PrC (and one that clearly doesn't add anything else significant) and, unless your character comes from the desert or has been there for a long time, there is no sensible and in-game way he has Terrain Mastery (desert).

Also, it's a trick to get early access to Tireless Rage.

In my book, that does qualify for cheese, though as I said, that is the only way to make the once/rage Rage Powers useful and hold any amount of water, so it's not that cheesy due to bad design.

*shrug* Far as I'm concerned, fluff is still mutable and you can call it "Infinite Rager" if you feel like it. Tireless Rage is really minor in any case.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I think the optimal thing to do is just skip Horizon Walker, go full Barbarian, and pick up the normally-good rage powers like pounce as quickly as possible. You already get pounce about four levels too late for my liking; no need to delay it further. With this in mind, I doubt people are going Horizon Walker to spam 1/rage rage powers; they're doing it for the (mutable) fluff while picking up a trick along the way.

[ranger557]

True it is mutable and can be changed to fit the character. However, still it is kind of funny if every barbarian would be a master of the desert, cool but funny. But I was thinking of going full barbarian to not delay my powers like GoodbyeSoberDay said before me. It would get me closer to the good rage powers. In one point, never fully played a barbarian, so might as well try and next time and ill be a master of the desert barbarian :smallbiggrin:.