Shadow Conjuration + Crafting + forbidden schools

[Dazed&Confused]

Am I able to use Shadow Evocation to cast a spell that's needed to be cast in order to make an item but belongs to a forbidden school?

For example: to make a Cerulean Sign I need to cast Invoke the Cerulean Sign, but if I have Evocation as a forbidden school, would I be able to use Shadow Conjuration and make the item anyway?

[Zagaroth]

Yes, because you are creating the effect of the spell, by casting a spell which is not forbidden.

[Morph Bark]

Cue illusionist crafters beating the living poop out of conjurers and evokers.

[Flickerdart]

For example: to make a Cerulean Sign I need to cast Invoke the Cerulean Sign, but if I have Evocation as a forbidden school, would I be able to use Shadow Conjuration and make the item anyway?
No. You would not be able to use Shadow Conjuration to mimic an Evocation spell. :smalltongue:

[ThiefInTheNight]

Note that to use the item you'd created, you'd still need to make a UMD check.

That said, I'm not sure this works. The crafting rules say you need to cast the spell. SLAs and other methods for gaining the spell's effects don't, IIRC, count, so why should a Shadow version?

[Eldest]

I'm pretty sure it would just depend on your DM.
If you wanted to be really convoluted, have the whatever item you make have the will save to disbelieve. So that the item's effects has a chance of only being 20/40/whatever percent real.

[Morph Bark]

If you wanted to be really convoluted, have the whatever item you make have the will save to disbelieve. So that the item's effects has a chance of only being 20/40/whatever percent real.

That is why Shadowcraft Mage exists.

[Andion Isurand]

If it works, I would also calculate the price according to the higher spell level being used.

[Acanous]

I wouldn't see it failing, but if the item in question is something that casts the spell (Wand, staff, certain rings) then it casts the shadow variant you used.

Whatever the item is, the crafting cost goes up because of your higher spell level/caster level as appropriate.

It sells for half of listed value, though

[Dazed&Confused]

Shadow Evocation, not Conjuration, sorry :p

[Infernalbargain]

In 3.5, actually shadow X won't work.


If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), must provide any material components or focuses the spells require, and must pay any XP costs required for the spells. The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)


If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the weapon triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the weapon’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)


The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.

If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, he pays the XP cost upon beginning the brew in addition to the XP cost for making the potion itself. Material components are consumed when he begins working, but a focus is not. (A focus used in brewing a potion can be reused.) The act of brewing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.) Brewing a potion requires one day.


Rings that duplicate spells with costly material or XP components add in the value of 50 × the spell’s component cost. Having a spell with a costly component as a prerequisite does not automatically incur this cost. The act of working on the ring triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the ring’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)


If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the rod, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the rod triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the rod’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)


The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself. Likewise, a material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)


The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires. Fifty of each needed material component are required, one for each charge. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost (multiplied by 50) upon beginning the wand in addition to the XP cost for making the wand itself. Likewise, material components are consumed when she begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a wand can be reused.) The act of working on the wand triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting during each day devoted to the wand’s creation. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)


The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material and XP component costs sufficient to activate the spell a maximum number of times (50 divided by the number of charges one use of the spell expends). This is in addition to the XP cost for making the staff itself. Material components are consumed when he begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a staff can be reused.) The act of working on the staff triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the staff’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)


If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

So technically since you did not prepare (or know) the spell in question, you can't do it.

Now Pathfinder does have one little line that 3.5 doesn't. While having the same descriptions for each class of item as in 3.5.


A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

So shadow X will work in PF as long as it comes from a source other than casting it.

[olentu]

I believe the requirement is that a spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect.

[Jack_Simth]

Am I able to use Shadow Evocation to cast a spell that's needed to be cast in order to make an item but belongs to a forbidden school?

For example: to make a Cerulean Sign I need to cast Invoke the Cerulean Sign, but if I have Evocation as a forbidden school, would I be able to use Shadow Conjuration and make the item anyway?

Well, let's see... the Specific Wording of prerequisites (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#prerequisites)
Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells (or some other requirement in addition to the feat).

When two spells at the end of a list are separated by "or," one of those spells is required in addition to every other spell mentioned prior to the last two. (emphasis added)

Now we compare that to Shadow Evocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm):
You tap energy from the Plane of Shadow to cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell of 4th level or lower. (For a spell with more than one level, use the best one applicable to you.)

... so no. You don't know the spell, you don't have it prepared, you're not getting it from a spell-trigger magic item, and you're not getting it from a spell-like ability.

You could, however, hire someone who can do so...

[Dazed&Confused]

Well, let's see... the Specific Wording of prerequisites (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#prerequisites)(emphasis added)

Now we compare that to Shadow Evocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm):

... so no. You don't know the spell, you don't have it prepared, you're not getting it from a spell-trigger magic item, and you're not getting it from a spell-like ability.

You could, however, hire someone who can do so...

That makes me sad :(

And I can't hire anyone, I wanna be a Keeper of the Cerulean Sign and I'm required to create the item myself, without help. The only way I can think of is UMD+wand, because I'm surely not dropping Illusion to get a so-so class. Just to use this room I have here instead of necro'ing some dead thread, know of any other mage PrCs that could be taken at 8th level and have 6+int skill points per level? :smallbiggrin:

[Zagaroth]

Oh, I misunderstood, was perhaps tired. I thought you were casting the spell to cast another spell that created items, ala (Minor/Major) Creation.

But yeah, as a prerequisite for crafting an item, no, it does not count.

[olentu]

Unseen seer has 6+int as I recall.