Best numbers to challenge a party?

[Ursus the Grim]

Let's assume, for a minute, that the CR system is NOT a jumbled mess.

How many monsters should go at a 4 person party?

I recently threw three encounters at my party, level 5.
The first, 4 bugbears, were not much of a threat. The only real damage dealt was due to the Sorceress tripping two nasty traps on herself.
The second, 2 Dire Boars, were easily the biggest threat. They soaked up a lot of damage and dealt about 13 to 20 points per hit.
The third, was an Annis and two Kobold Sorcs. The party quickly identified the Kobolds as a major threat and took them out before burning a Fire Elemental Gem on the Annis which promptly butchered her.

Obviously single monster fights are difficult to balance, as the action economy means that the party either wins by a landslide or all their attacks are useless. Only using a few means that the more powerful members (namely, spellcasters) never feel threatened as they can avoid them. Using too many (again, following DMG like a fool) means the little guys can't do much at all to the players.

What is your rule of thumb? How many monsters for a 4 person party is "just right"?

[shadow_archmagi]

I'd say the Annis+Kobolds should've been a potential TPK if played right.

If it had been me, I"d have opened up with the Annis charging forward, and then one kobold using Grease and the other using Obscuring Mist, since the Annis has blind-fight. Actually, probably would've been a good idea to drop Mage Armor on the Annis beforehand; scratch the grease.

Then the Kobolds wait outside the fog and ready an action to Magic Missile if they spot one of the casters trying to get out to cast. If the casters stay inside the fog, the Annis can rip them to pieces, and if they leave, they'll be unable to cast on account of the magic missile bombardment.

Of course, this is all making the assumption that you're using a Classic Party.

Knowing what classes your party is actually using, and at what level of optimization, changes the game completely.

I've known parties where two or three CR appropriate fights at the same time was a reasonable challenge.

[Gotterdammerung]

Let's assume, for a minute, that the CR system is NOT a jumbled mess.

How many monsters should go at a 4 person party?

I recently threw three encounters at my party, level 5.
The first, 4 bugbears, were not much of a threat. The only real damage dealt was due to the Sorceress tripping two nasty traps on herself.
The second, 2 Dire Boars, were easily the biggest threat. They soaked up a lot of damage and dealt about 13 to 20 points per hit.
The third, was an Annis and two Kobold Sorcs. The party quickly identified the Kobolds as a major threat and took them out before burning a Fire Elemental Gem on the Annis which promptly butchered her.

Obviously single monster fights are difficult to balance, as the action economy means that the party either wins by a landslide or all their attacks are useless. Only using a few means that the more powerful members (namely, spellcasters) never feel threatened as they can avoid them. Using too many (again, following DMG like a fool) means the little guys can't do much at all to the players.

What is your rule of thumb? How many monsters for a 4 person party is "just right"?

I just use CR values as a suggestion. Usually, I pick/build monsters that are appropriate to the story first. Then i go back and make sure the combats are in a -4 to +4 EL in comparison to the party. Then i just let them run into them organically.

My players have a dispensation towards powergaming and as a general rule I tell them the challenges are in the same league as the players.

CR values are pretty much worthless. Just go off of hunch with the CR as a lose guideline. If you kill someone, so what. It might suck in the moment but it actually makes the game better when players know they can die. And overtime your hunches will get better.

There is nothing worse than a DM who treats CR like the holy grail and then does optimization tricks with templates and nonassosciated class lvls and +1 CR per 4 hit die wonkyness. Then unleashes it on a group of casual players who just want to play have a light fun game with a good story. Completely ravage them and then try to hide behind "What?! It was 1 CR under the party O.,o."

Its all about the story man. Miss that and you might as well be playing a console game.

[TroubleBrewing]

I generally like 2 big bad things of the same sort (ranged, melee, etc.) 2 middling-power level types of the opposite as the big guys, and maybe 2 or 3 weak things whose purpose is really just to harry the party's casters and force the heavy hitters to waste actions squishing them.

That means a lot of work for you, though. I generally only use one of this formula per session. I like hordes of things, too. 6-8 little guys can be NASTY if they've got a special attack type like tripping, poison, or another status effect.

With single monsters, I find it helpful to make the environment itself a hazard, to help reduce the party's ability to focus fire on the monster. Something that needs to be held up or it'll collapse, hostages that will die if they aren't reached in time, a lava pool that the monster can use to attack multiple party members at the same time, etc.

Anyway, that's my 2cp.

[Diefje]

I like the larger groups. With single or few monsters it almost comes down to wether they use the tactic that absolutely destroys the party or not and thusly get roflstomped. Sometimes it even feels like it was decided with the Initiative roll.

Larger groups (I'd say about double the party's size) just give the baddies more actions, to harass the casters while busying the melee types, to spread out so single spells/ragecharge don't kill the encounter, to change tactics on the fly (to make it harder but also easier), to mix in different creatures in one encounter...

[Godskook]

Well, my PCs are utilizing quite a few beneficial houserules that make them far more durable, but:

Encounter 1:
2 CR 5s: Entombers from Libris Mortis
1 CR 6: Bloodhulk Giant from MMIV

Encounter 2:
1 CR 7: Poorly run Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror
1 CR 6: Bloodhulk Giant
4 CR 4: Bloodhulk Fighters


From this, I had exactly 1 PC death, and that was from a PC choosing to stay in melee with the BHGiant after the DN died with not enough HP to even survive at negatives against an average roll. And the BHGiant basically was auto-hitting things. (Both things that PC vocally said he was aware of)

The party is mostly ECL 5, with a few ECL 4s, no 3rd level spells due to multiclassing.