wild shape flavor question

[limejuicepowder]

one of the party members I'm dm'ing right now is a druid. the party is 5th level, so he has wild shape. the setting is post-viking, so they are in a northern climiate, thus the animals he would be familiar with are pretty limited - wolves, bears, boars, foxes, moose, etc. However, since he can only do medium creatures he's basically limited to wolf form, and wolves pretty much suck. He wants to do fleshraker dino, but that obviously makes no sense in the setting.

how do other people handle what animals a druid can summon and turn in to? if it is indeed limited to native, familiar creatures that takes a giant chunk out of the fun, power, and options of a druid. but going in to the other direction doesn't make much sense either.

[skycycle blues]

In the SRD, the only restriction about what Druid can Wild shape into is

The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.

So that would up to you and the player to decide upon. You choose what animals do and don't exist, and you choose what animals it would be reasonable for him to know things about. For example, if he has a super high Knowledge Nature, that could suggest that he's done a lot of research on exotic animals and possibly in his back story, has spent time searching for rare animals and become quite familiar with some.

It's really just up to you and him to come up with something that seems fair.
If Fleshrakers exist in your setting, and he has compelling reason to suggest that his character would be familiar with Fleshrakers, then let him have it. But I doubt he has compelling reason for Fleshrakers.

[Flickerdart]

Familiar? Yes. Native? Doesn't have to be. A Druid has Knowledge(Nature) in-class, so he would know all about almost any valid wildshape form, that exists in the setting. While Fleshrakers per se might not exist anywhere in the world, nothing is stopping him from turning into lions and tigers.

That said, a dire weasel would be a pretty good form for him (weasels live all over Scandinavia and Greenland) what with its Constitution damage ability. Bonus points if he gets another one as his companion, and tag-teams people.

[missmvicious]

A druid is a student of nature. They should know quite a bit about common wildlife in all climates. Therefore it's safe to say he can Take 10 on any kind of (at least) natural wildlife you would expect to find. By natural, I would mean out-of-game natural. For everything else, have him roll a Knowledge Check to see if he knows enough about the creature to become it. If he gets the roll, let him have it, but remember climate limitations.

A Fleshraker is cold-blooded and accustomed to Temperate Forests, so he couldn't stay in his wild-shape very long without making some CON rolls to see if he starts taking cold damage. If he is forced to stay in Wild-Shape overnight for some reason, I would say that would be lethal damage or at least enough to put him in a death-like state: a coma or suspended animation.

[ThiefInTheNight]

A Fleshraker is cold-blooded and accustomed to Temperate Forests, so he couldn't stay in his wild-shape very long without making some CON rolls to see if he starts taking cold damage. If he is forced to stay in Wild-Shape overnight for some reason, I would say that would be lethal damage or at least enough to put him in a death-like state: a coma or suspended animation.
I actually like this houserule, but as a player I would definitely want some hard-and-fast rules on how it works. Spend a few minutes looking at the normal exposure rules, maybe look some stuff on Wikipedia, and extrapolate similar rules for the Fleshraker and similar reptiles, perhaps.

Of course, cold-blooded creatures are much more greatly affected by sunlight, which could be kind of annoying to try to keep track of...

[dgnslyr]

Alternatively, you could play in a Scandinavian setting with dinosaurs! Isn't there that big debate going on over whether or not dinos are warm or cold blooded? Besides, I can't see how this could possibly backfire. :smallsmile:
and this is why you don't listen to my advice

[ThiefInTheNight]

Well, birds are dinosaurs* and are warm-blooded, so at some point dinosaurs became warm-blooded. I doubt the Fleshraker specifies, though. Since it is vaguely raptor-looking, you could make a pretty good case for it being on the warm-blooded side, though.

Anyway, I'd be OK with a Druid having examined fossils and gained knowledge of currently-extinct creatures that way. Though most dinosaurs that lived in any geographic area probably wouldn't live long in the same area today (due to climate and tectonic shifts), but whatever; D&D doesn't have that level of simulationism anyway. An average Druid should be able to spare an Endure Elements at the level he gets Wild Shape anyway.

* The best fact. (http://xkcd.com/867/)

[Gotterdammerung]

A druid is a student of nature. They should know quite a bit about common wildlife in all climates. Therefore it's safe to say he can Take 10 on any kind of (at least) natural wildlife you would expect to find. By natural, I would mean out-of-game natural. For everything else, have him roll a Knowledge Check to see if he knows enough about the creature to become it. If he gets the roll, let him have it, but remember climate limitations.


The DMG also says that a DM can modify a dc by 20 if he feels the task is nearly impossible.

Just having ranks in knowledge nature doesn't automatically fill in the blanks on all things nature. In a situation like this, it comes down to access and background story.

A druid who never left a snowy area could have a high knowledge nature skill, but know absolutely nothing about the nature of other climates.

The info has to come from somewhere. Your GM has to approve where the info comes from.

That being said, there are lots of reasonable ways that a druid could learn about other climates. Scrolls of lore kept by a druidic sect. Oral tradition from a worldwide nomadic druid organization. Travellers who tell tales of their homelands.

However, none of these conditions actually meet the wild shape criteria of a "Familiar" animal. The text even goes on to specifically state that a druid who never left a temperate area could not wild shape into a polar bear. It did not say "A druid who never left a temperate area could make an easy knowledge nature check to magically manifest a familiar understanding of nature outside of his experience and then use that knowledge to change into a polar bear."

Anyway, back to reasonable solutions. There are lots of animals. Not all of them have MM entries. Do some work as a DM. Research animals that naturally occur in this climate. Compare them to existing animals. Create new monster entries. Congratulations.

Some suggestions.

Medium sized birds of prey.

Create a powerful charge style medium ram animal.

Snow leopards.

Keep creating even more as he breaks into larger wild shape sizes. Make the player want to embrace his homeland. Look to prehistoric animals for inspiration. Like the Woolly Rhinoceros, the woolly mammoth, Sabretooth tigers, Dire Elk (some elk in real life make Clydesdale's look like poodles. The prehistoric ones were even bigger. Megaloceros Giganteus... I mean its got Mega and Giga in its name...you know its gotta be big.)

The point is, cold climate animals are plentiful and strong. If your going to go out of your way to stick the players in one climate, and that climate doesn't have options for their class ability, then it is your job as a DM to create new content to support your story choice.

[TroubleBrewing]

Check Frostburn for some other cool resources for a Northern setting, not to mention some of the more rad Wild Shape/Animal Companion choices.

[Flickerdart]

Wait a tic, he's got Summon Nature's Ally. One should think that a certain amount of familiarity is conferred by being able to spontaneously conjure the bleedin' things out of thin air. So he would definitely be familiar with things like constrictor snakes and monkeys.

[TroubleBrewing]

If you're worried about Fleshrakers overpowering your setting, consider that they're cold-blooded. Anything below about 50 degrees and it will rapidly lose consciousness.

[Gotterdammerung]

Wait a tic, he's got Summon Nature's Ally. One should think that a certain amount of familiarity is conferred by being able to spontaneously conjure the bleedin' things out of thin air. So he would definitely be familiar with things like constrictor snakes and monkeys.

And its perfectly within the DM's rights to rewrite the summon monster list to be filled with cold climate allies.

Or to add a "must be familiar" clause to the spell.

[Cespenar]

Seriously. The druid has full spellcasting, a pet Fighter, and a dozen forms to change into. He can do without the Fleshraker.

[missmvicious]

Then you start getting intense and all sciency.

Sure, nearly all birds are warm-blooded, but nearly all reptiles are cold-blooded. So, you have to ask yourself is a Fleshraker a reptile or a bird? Remember not all dinosaurs were birds... it's just widely accepted that many of them evolved into birds. And since Fleshrakers are made up creatures, you just sort of have to guess from its description and combat tactics what you think they are. When I picture it in my head, I'm picturing a reptile... no feathers, no beak, no wings... leathery and spiny skin, pointy teeth, wicked claws... a reptile.

But all this can be broken down to one school of thought:

It's used to Temperate Forests
Nordic regions could be best described in the DMG as a combination of Cold Deserts (tundras) and Cold Mountains

Any species (human or otherwise) indigenous to temperate regions would struggle in the wild wastes of the tundra, or the treacherous, snow-capped buttes of the north. And regardless of whether it's a reptile or bird, it wouldn't be genetically designed to be an effective land animal in areas of deep snow and slippery, fragile ice. Imagine what a dinosaurs roar might do to an eager glacier resting precariously on the mountainside.

You better hope the Fleshraker has wings... because it isn't going to outrun that in 3' of snow, with it's pointy, clawed feet. LOL.

This campaign could serve as a tragic, but valuable, lesson in evolutionary science, and as a reminder of the horrific effects the Ice Age had on Earth's most mysterious and majestic of inhabitants. Remember children: Ice Age's are bad. Winner's don't do Ice Ages.

[Flickerdart]

And its perfectly within the DM's rights to rewrite the summon monster list to be filled with cold climate allies.

Or to add a "must be familiar" clause to the spell.
Yes, but unless he does, it's a perfectly valid way of gaining familiarity.

[Zaq]

Druids don't need any more power, but just as a devil's advocate, if the character had been raised and/or trained by other, more experienced Druids, those other Druids could have passed down traditions of animals that are (for the region) strange and exotic, including Wild Shaping into them so that the students/apprentices/whatever baby Druids are called could see what these things look and (kind of) act like.

I actually like the concept of a group of Druids who passes on traditions of animal shapes that few of them have seen in the wild for generations.

[Cespenar]

Druids don't need any more power, but just as a devil's advocate, if the character had been raised and/or trained by other, more experienced Druids, those other Druids could have passed down traditions of animals that are (for the region) strange and exotic, including Wild Shaping into them so that the students/apprentices/whatever baby Druids are called could see what these things look and (kind of) act like.

I actually like the concept of a group of Druids who passes on traditions of animal shapes that few of them have seen in the wild for generations.

While that's a good world-building and creative thinking exercise, it translates to the player specifically as "Yes! I can has moar powr"

[Flickerdart]

I actually like the concept of a group of Druids who passes on traditions of animal shapes that few of them have seen in the wild for generations.
One could imagine they'll get it wrong over time, but they are so certain of it (but my mentor used this form, and his mentor, and his mentor!) that the Wild Shape still works. And then a Wizard decides he wants some of these animals and tries to Simulacrum them and can't because they aren't real, and everyone has a good laugh about it.

[Gotterdammerung]

Yes, but unless he does, it's a perfectly valid way of gaining familiarity.

Creatures won't answer a summon natures ally if it calls them to an environment that cannot support them. So you can't use a Summon natures ally to summon a fleshraker leezard into a frozen tundra. The same could be said for any ally choice who is not equipped to handle the icy dangers of the tundra.

But there isn't any point in arguing semantics. He has the answer already. Use frostburn and create new animals appropriate for the region. A snow leopard could easily match a fleshraker dino in stats. Just look at a tiger then look at a cerval (sandstorm) then make a medium version in the middle of the 2.

Another idea, albeit a little bit on the powerful side, would be to reward the class for its limitations. A tundra druid doesn't know as much about the world as your typical druid, but he learns the harsh lessons of the uttercold. Since the majority of frozen wasteland animals seem to be large or bigger. Increase his size range access on wildshape by 1 step. In exchange he can only ever wildshape into cold climate creatures, even if he would later be exposed to other regional creatures.

[ThiefInTheNight]

To be frank, it (hopefully?) won't match the Fleshraker in stats because the Fleshraker is overpowered.

[Yuki Akuma]

Then you start getting intense and all sciency.

Sure, nearly all birds are warm-blooded, but nearly all reptiles are cold-blooded. So, you have to ask yourself is a Fleshraker a reptile or a bird?

All dinosaurs are birds. Dinosaurs are not reptiles, and evolved before reptiles evolved.

[ThiefInTheNight]

All dinosaurs are birds. Dinosaurs are not reptiles, and evolved before reptiles evolved.
That... is not a claim I have ever heard. Can you cite some sources?

Generally speaking, this is a sort of semantically-difficult discussion due to the fact that "reptile" really doesn't even have a hard-and-fast definition (it mostly acts as "a vertebrate that is not, for whatever reason, a fish, amphibian, bird, or mammal"), but generally speaking, pre-Aves "avians" (including Scansoriopterygidae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scansoriopterygidae), which is the "other" Family in the Avialae branch of Theropoda) are considered "reptiles"; "birds" are only those dinosaurs which are members of Aves (such as archeopteryx). See diagram:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Traditional_Reptilia.png/800px-Traditional_Reptilia.png
Of course, this is all quite mucked up by the fact that the traditional classifications don't make sense in light of recent discoveries, but restructuring the classifications cause a lot of problems. In this sense, Aves could not be a Class of its own, since it would have to be a member of the Class Reptilia. Or the Class Reptilia would be removed and... it's not entirely clear what it would be replaced with.

[Yuki Akuma]

That... is not a claim I have ever heard. Can you cite some sources?

As soon as I remember where I read that and make sure I'm not making it up!

[Coidzor]

Just having ranks in knowledge nature doesn't automatically fill in the blanks on all things nature. In a situation like this, it comes down to access and background story.

No, it represents a whole umbrella of different forms of study on the subject, which is the pertinent point.

[Gotterdammerung]

No, it represents a whole umbrella of different forms of study on the subject, which is the pertinent point.

If that were the case, then 1 rank in knowledge local would give you basic knowledge of the entire universe. Yet it doesn't.

[nyarlathotep]

Then you start getting intense and all sciency.

Sure, nearly all birds are warm-blooded, but nearly all reptiles are cold-blooded. So, you have to ask yourself is a Fleshraker a reptile or a bird? Remember not all dinosaurs were birds... it's just widely accepted that many of them evolved into birds. And since Fleshrakers are made up creatures, you just sort of have to guess from its description and combat tactics what you think they are. When I picture it in my head, I'm picturing a reptile... no feathers, no beak, no wings... leathery and spiny skin, pointy teeth, wicked claws... a reptile.


It has a bird-like hip structure, has a pack hunting pattern that when described is remarkably similar to cassowaries and wolves, it is clearly based on the raptor family which we now know had feathers almost to the dino in later periods so I'd say bird or at least warm-blooded makes more sense, because a cold-blooded animal can't actually function as a pursuit predator with the movement speed described.

[TroubleBrewing]

It has a bird-like hip structure, has a pack hunting pattern that when described is remarkably similar to cassowaries and wolves, it is clearly based on the raptor family which we now know had feathers almost to the dino in later periods so I'd say bird or at least warm-blooded makes more sense, because a cold-blooded animal can't actually function as a pursuit predator with the movement speed described.

Sure it can, assuming the planet involved has an average temperature of over 70 degrees Fahrenheit.

[Yuki Akuma]

If that were the case, then 1 rank in knowledge local would give you basic knowledge of the entire universe. Yet it doesn't.

Knowledge (Local) is specifically based on a single small area.

Knowledge (Nature) is specifically based on all nature.

This argument is invalid.

[Spiryt]

I guess it's all about definition of "familiar" then.

I would say that for any sensible fluff, Druid really has to know the animal, it's habits, temperament, capabilities of it's muscles, brain, senses, where it sleeps and how it eats, how would he be able to move in it's skin otherwise?

If you want to be a god of wind
You have to beat me
If you want to be a god of wind
You must take my skin
If you want to be a god of wind
You must use my nails
If you want to be a god of wind
You must be like me, must be like bear

So I would rule that as fairly high Knowledge (Nature) check, for pretty complete info about stats of animal in question.

Other than that, AFAIR, if only Druid can use Natural Spell, and player has some idea about stuff, he anyway is going to be very high powered, so why worry about wolf "sucking"?

[Gotterdammerung]

Knowledge (Local) is specifically based on a single small area.

Knowledge (Nature) is specifically based on all nature.

This argument is invalid.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm)

I'm looking, and i don't see where it says you gotta specify what region you assign your knowledge local skills to.

The point is the DM has the right and moreover the duty to adjust the rules to fit his story. Almost every GM i know enforces the specific regions for knowledge local, because it makes sense and it enhances the story.

It's the same exact case here.

It would be like a character playing in a campaign where dragons are secretive and incredibly rare. And then trying to force his GM into letting him know everything there is to know about dragons, because he rolled a 40 on his knowledge arcana check.

Not only is it disrespectful to the GM to try to use the rules to strong arm his story, it is also disrespectful to the spirit of the game.

[faceroll]

Big cats live in cold climates- see the siberian tiger and snow leopard.

Primates also live in cold climates.

Two decent combat morphs would be (snow) leopard and (snow) baboon. Baboons get decent physical attack scores and a bite. They also have hands, which means you can wield that shillelagh with both hands.


A Fleshraker is cold-blooded

What makes you say that?


Well, birds are dinosaurs* and are warm-blooded, so at some point dinosaurs became warm-blooded. I doubt the Fleshraker specifies, though. Since it is vaguely raptor-looking, you could make a pretty good case for it being on the warm-blooded side, though.

It's a relative of the velociraptor (see its entry in MM3). That makes me think it's in Theropoda, the clade which also contains birds.


All dinosaurs are birds. Dinosaurs are not reptiles, and evolved before reptiles evolved.

Everything you've stated here is incorrect, 100% wrong.

All birds are dinosaurs; not all dinosaurs are birds. All dinosaurs and birds are reptiles, but not all reptiles are birds. Reptilia is one of the oldest terrestrial vertebrate lineages. Turtles likely represent extant members of a 310my old clade, while dinosaurs have only been around for 245my.

[Yuki Akuma]

Everything you've stated here is incorrect, 100% wrong.

All birds are dinosaurs; not all dinosaurs are birds. All dinosaurs and birds are reptiles, but not all reptiles are birds. Reptilia is one of the oldest terrestrial vertebrate lineages. Turtles likely represent extant members of a 310my old clade, while dinosaurs have only been around for 245my.

Alright then, I must have been misremembering. :smallsmile:

[faceroll]

Alright then, I must have been misremembering. :smallsmile:

You might have remembered everything backwards- sometimes I do that.

[missmvicious]

What makes you say that?


It was just a conclusion I made based on a description of the monster. I explained my thought process in a later post.

"Sure, nearly all birds are warm-blooded, but nearly all reptiles are cold-blooded. So, you have to ask yourself is a Fleshraker a reptile or a bird? Remember not all dinosaurs were birds... it's just widely accepted that many of them evolved into birds. And since Fleshrakers are made up creatures, you just sort of have to guess from its description and combat tactics what you think they are. When I picture it in my head, I'm picturing a reptile... no feathers, no beak, no wings... leathery and spiny skin, pointy teeth, wicked claws... a reptile."

Of course, I can't help but notice the irony that we are discussing theories of evolution in a game setting which involves multiple pantheons of gods which can physically manifest them selves in the game setting (intelligent creation theorists and evolutionary theorists rarely get along) ... not to mention the fact that a Fleshraker is not actually any part of an evolutionary cycle, because it does not actually exist. Not trolling here, or trying to start a religion thread; just finding this amusing.

[Yuki Akuma]

Said game setting that involves multiple pantheons of gods and intelligent design does seem to also include some natural evolution - no god has ever claimed to have created humans, for instance. In fact, one of the very few 'Human Pantheon' gods was simply the first human.

Goblinoids are likely to have evolved naturally, as well. Probably not orcs, though.

So, Fleshrakers could be naturally evolving creatures!

[Urpriest]

To chime in on the Knowledge question, by the rules Druids everywhere speak the same language that they refuse to teach to nondruids. It's rather implausible that such a situation could persist for very long unless the world's various Druid groves were in regular communication. So even a viking Druid would have contact via the Druid network with people who have interacted with exotic animals.

[ThiefInTheNight]

It was just a conclusion I made based on a description of the monster. I explained my thought process in a later post.

"Sure, nearly all birds are warm-blooded, but nearly all reptiles are cold-blooded. So, you have to ask yourself is a Fleshraker a reptile or a bird? Remember not all dinosaurs were birds... it's just widely accepted that many of them evolved into birds. And since Fleshrakers are made up creatures, you just sort of have to guess from its description and combat tactics what you think they are. When I picture it in my head, I'm picturing a reptile... no feathers, no beak, no wings... leathery and spiny skin, pointy teeth, wicked claws... a reptile."
So.... it's ok when the extrapolation from real life suits your purposes, but not when it doesn't?

Because that's how it sounds. It's totally ok to go "it looks like a reptile to me, those are cold-blooded in real life!", but not to say "well, the 'reptile' it looks like is actually, in real life, much more closely related to birds, and probably was, in reality, warm-blooded"? That seems to me to be a just a bit of a double-standard.

The fact is, not all reptiles are cold-blooded. This is a fact; there are even some currently-living reptiles that are warm-blooded (or... other weird things that are kind of in between). There are reptiles that don't have scales. And there are mammals and birds that do have scales. There are reptiles that give live birth, there are reptiles that have structures fairly similar to a placenta. Not even all mammals have that; don't forget that there are also mammals that lay eggs. Basically, in short, the term "reptile" is exceedingly non-specific and very little can be said about them as a whole, especially when you're looking at a fictional dinosaur based on Theropoda, of which Aves is a member.

[Chronos]

Vikings may have lived in cold places, but they traveled a lot. Viking raids in the Mediterranean were not unheard-of. It's far from implausible that your druid might have traveled with one of these far-ranging raiding parties, and had a chance to study exotic (to him) animals.

[missmvicious]

\

Sigh...

Real life and fantasy life in a fantasy game can blur weirdly sometimes. While this may appear to be a double standard, I honestly try to be as fair as I can be when making judgment calls, and rarely get any complaints from my group. Besides, even the RAW in-game physics rules, monetary rules, and even cultural rules aren't always quite right. I mean, how can they be in a world with dragons and wizards various ancillary races/classes/fluff/etc? I don't mean to be rude, but I shouldn't have to explain that.

If you read the description, looked at the picture, and came up with "bird" then that's fine for your campaign. It isn't particularly relevant to OPs question, anyway. Warm-blooded or cold-blooded, it would have a hard time surviving, let alone thriving, in the harsh wintery conditions of a Norse setting because it is indigenous to a temperate climate. Besides... all of this is fluff anyway. In the end, leave that to the DM to decide. If it were my campaign, I'd go with "reptile" and move on.

And I know that not all reptiles are cold-blooded, but warm-blooded reptiles are atypical. So, I applied what I thought to be the most likely outcome: cold-blooded reptile. Besides, it makes an interesting challenge for wild-shaping into such an odd animal, which (when compared to a wolf, is a bit over-powered). And also, read my previous post. I didn't say, definitively, that the Fleshraker is absolutely a cold-blooded reptile. I recommended that the DM ask himself whether or not he thinks it's a reptile or a bird. Personally, I went with reptile. He may go "bird"... up to him, and I won't lose sleep over it.

[Spiryt]

Vikings may have lived in cold places, but they traveled a lot. Viking raids in the Mediterranean were not unheard-of. It's far from implausible that your druid might have traveled with one of these far-ranging raiding parties, and had a chance to study exotic (to him) animals.


To chime in on the Knowledge question, by the rules Druids everywhere speak the same language that they refuse to teach to nondruids. It's rather implausible that such a situation could persist for very long unless the world's various Druid groves were in regular communication. So even a viking Druid would have contact via the Druid network with people who have interacted with exotic animals.

Well, the first thing is that Vikings no matter if Scandinavian or any else, didn't have any druids, let alone secret language - and they weren't running around turning into animals, either. :smallwink:

So since it's obviously fantasy vikingage, there can obviosuly be different animals living near them, there can indeed be some predominant international Druidic circles, or whatever.

So it all depends on setting in question.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Sigh...

Real life and fantasy life in a fantasy game can blur weirdly sometimes. While this may appear to be a double standard, I honestly try to be as fair as I can be when making judgment calls, and rarely get any complaints from my group. Besides, even the RAW in-game physics rules, monetary rules, and even cultural rules aren't always quite right. I mean, how can they be in a world with dragons and wizards various ancillary races/classes/fluff/etc? I don't mean to be rude, but I shouldn't have to explain that.
You don't; I was merely pointing out the inconsistency of your judgment.


If you read the description, looked at the picture, and came up with "bird" then that's fine for your campaign. It isn't particularly relevant to OPs question, anyway. Warm-blooded or cold-blooded, it would have a hard time surviving, let alone thriving, in the harsh wintery conditions of a Norse setting because it is indigenous to a temperate climate. Besides... all of this is fluff anyway. In the end, leave that to the DM to decide. If it were my campaign, I'd go with "reptile" and move on.

And I know that not all reptiles are cold-blooded, but warm-blooded reptiles are atypical. So, I applied what I thought to be the most likely outcome: cold-blooded reptile. Besides, it makes an interesting challenge for wild-shaping into such an odd animal, which (when compared to a wolf, is a bit over-powered). And also, read my previous post. I didn't say, definitively, that the Fleshraker is absolutely a cold-blooded reptile. I recommended that the DM ask himself whether or not he thinks it's a reptile or a bird. Personally, I went with reptile. He may go "bird"... up to him, and I won't lose sleep over it.
See, the thing is, what it comes down to is that the Fleshraker should probably have feathers in the picture. Would you be more likely to say "bird" if it did? The creature it is described to be, the creature it is based on, almost-certainly had feathers and was warm-blooded. In fact, these things were probably necessary for it to engage in the high-energy activities that it used. Compare it to most cold-blooded reptiles today, whose hunting style is usually "sit and wait" — crocodiles lurk in rivers, snakes hide in crevices, chameleons sit and use their tongue to snare flies — not many use an active, run-them-down, leap-through-the-air style of hunting that the Fleshraker is described as using. They could not do so.

And the rules don't actually specify, let's remember. In fact, the rules don't cover things like warm-or-cold-blooded-ness at all. So while it's entirely possible that the Fleshraker was magically or divinely created to behave very unusually for a creature of its sort, and somehow maintains these energy levels despite not being fully warm-blooded, there's no particular indication that this is so. It's much more implied to be a natural creature. You make a judgment call that says "reptile", which... is accurate as far as it goes, but only if you recognize the sort of reptile that it is — namely, a theopod, which is very-nearly a bird, even if depicted without feathers. The Fleshraker, then, should be a borderline thing between "classical reptile" and "bird", and considering the high-energy activities it undertakes, it's probably on the "bird" side of the blood-temperature question.


Now, in terms of making judgments necessary in game, your ruling is reasonable, especially considering that most people are unaware of all the issues we've been discussing. And sometimes, a DM needs to just make a choice, right, wrong, or indifferent, so the game can continue, and maintain it for consistency's sake. I didn't really state otherwise. My criticism was not for the in-the-middle-of-a-game-judgment, but for the discussion-forum-debate-argument. That was all I was saying.

And, if I was a player, I would probably present this same argument to you, and I might be dissatisfied with the answer "well it looks reptilian to me, and therefore must be cold-blooded" after this whole thing. There are myriad much better reasons to object to the Fleshraker than that.

[missmvicious]

Lol... international Druidic circles. I'm picturing a union now...

Druid 1: "Hello fellow Druid. May I be granted passage through your glade?" I seek the Druidic HQ, which is supposed to be near here."

Druid 2: "Which chapter are you from? Can I see your credentials?"

Druid 1: "203. And by all means, I'm the charter member."

Druid 2: "You're that guy that got us extended, paid-breaks with Nymphs for 10th level Druids and higher, and a free bonus trick for your Animal Companion at Level 1, aren't you?"

Druid 1: "Well... I don't like to brag."

Druid 2: "You're like a god-tier to us, man! Come on in! My glade is your glade!"

[Gotterdammerung]

Lol... international Druidic circles. I'm picturing a union now...

Druid 1: "Hello fellow Druid. May I be granted passage through your glade?" I seek the Druidic HQ, which is supposed to be near here."

Druid 2: "Which chapter are you from? Can I see your credentials?"

Druid 1: "203. And by all means, I'm the charter member."

Druid 2: "You're that guy that got us extended, paid-breaks with Nymphs for 10th level Druids and higher, and a free bonus trick for your Animal Companion at Level 1, aren't you?"

Druid 1: "Well... I don't like to brag."

Druid 2: "You're like a god-tier to us, man! Come on in! My glade is your glade!"

They are very similar to pokemon centers

[limejuicepowder]

I am quite flattered that my question has spawned such a lively and interesting discussion...even if it's not directly relavent xD

If anyone cares, I've decided to not let him turn in to a fleshraker, for a couple reasons: one, it's a pretty cheesy animal form in the best of situations (and climates); adding in "dinosaur in the frozen tundra" makes it even worse. two, there are plenty of other animals to choose from, we just had to do a little more research. Dire weasals, snow leapards, eagle...some good stuff for sure.

Besides, it's not going to matter for that long anyways. Once we get to level 8 bear form is available, making this all moot.

thanks for the suggestions though!

[faceroll]

It was just a conclusion I made based on a description of the monster. I explained my thought process in a later post.

"Sure, nearly all birds are warm-blooded, but nearly all reptiles are cold-blooded. So, you have to ask yourself is a Fleshraker a reptile or a bird? Remember not all dinosaurs were birds... it's just widely accepted that many of them evolved into birds. And since Fleshrakers are made up creatures, you just sort of have to guess from its description and combat tactics what you think they are. When I picture it in my head, I'm picturing a reptile... no feathers, no beak, no wings... leathery and spiny skin, pointy teeth, wicked claws... a reptile."

Of course, I can't help but notice the irony that we are discussing theories of evolution in a game setting which involves multiple pantheons of gods which can physically manifest them selves in the game setting (intelligent creation theorists and evolutionary theorists rarely get along) ... not to mention the fact that a Fleshraker is not actually any part of an evolutionary cycle, because it does not actually exist. Not trolling here, or trying to start a religion thread; just finding this amusing.

I figured that, as long as people brought up evolutionary theory, they should at least know what evolutionary biology has to say.

Endure Elements is a 1st level druid spell that lasts 24 hours, anyway. It's not like something as mundane as the weather is anything more than a minor inconvenience to a full caster.


And I know that not all reptiles are cold-blooded, but warm-blooded reptiles are atypical.

There are nearly 10,000 extant species of birds (which are reptiles), all of which a lay person would consider "warm-blooded". The way lay persons and classic systematists use reptile is to describe a paraphyletic collection of organisms, and is not much more biologically accurate than "fruit" or "worm" in describing characteristics amongst the group, beyond a few gross anatomical features.

[McToomin]

Keep in mind that there is no clear, 100% separation between warm-blooded and cold-blooded. And before you run off to Wikipedia or something else that explains the difference: yes, I know there are differences between the two extremes. HOWEVER, there are also degrees by which they differ, and some must have been pretty close to one another. After all, a cold-blooded reptile didn't one day give birth to a warm-blooded creature. Something like that has to change over time, just like everything else.

With that in mind, you have to look at the Fleshraker dinosaur. Its picture and description specifically mark it as a small theropod dinosaur (it even says quote "a cousin of the velociraptor", albeit one that can run as a quadruped, which velociraptor and its cousins could not do), so clearly it is based on those kinds of dinosaurs. Small theropods had active lifestyles, and were in fact covered in feathers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velociraptor#Feathers). They were hunters (not necessarily pack hunters like in Jurassic Park, as there's no evidence of that, but they DID provably actively hunt their food (see the Fighting Dinosaurs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velociraptor#Predatory_behavior) fossil for the most famous example), and are the same kinds of dinosaurs (small theropods) that eventually evolved into birds.

With all that in mind, it's pretty clear that velociraptor, and by extension the Fleshraker (being a cousin) are warm-blooded creatures.

The problem that arises is the Fleshraker's picture. This is velociraptor's current picture:

http://www.thedinosaurs.org/dinosaurs/images/velociraptor_large.jpg

Here's Fleshraker's:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dx0120fc_fightclub_meepo2.jpg

Despite the fact that it's clearly a velociraptor expy (actually that's not even accurate, as its larger even than deinonychus and can run on all four's), it doesn't have feathers. Perhaps because the fact that velociraptors had feathers wasn't known at the time, or just because it looks cooler.

The point I'm leading up to is that even warm-blooded creatures need protection from extreme colds. That's why almost all animals during the great ice age had giant fur coats (see: Wooly Mammoth, Wooly Rhino, etc.). As a warm-blooded creature with SCALES, I don't see them having any kind of special protection from cold, even THOUGH they're warm-blooded. So I would say that, if Fleshrakers exist in your setting AND he has a good reason for knowing about them, to let him turn into one. But he should be subject to exposure far faster than any other characters (who presumably are wearing warm clothing, furs, or other things in addition to their armor, while he has nothing but scales).

tl;dr
If he has a good reason for knowing what a Fleshraker is and they exist in the setting, he should be able to become one. But Fleshrakers would not survive very well in a cold environment, despite being warm-blooded.

[TroubleBrewing]

I brought up the idea that coldblooded dinosaurs die quickly in cold environments as a joke, and since the character in question is a Druid, the point is sort of moot. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/endureElements.htm)

EDIT: Gah! Faceroll! You stinking Swordsage!

[missmvicious]

I am quite flattered that my question has spawned such a lively and interesting discussion...even if it's not directly relavent xD
thanks for the suggestions though!

*Beaming*

You're welcome! I'm glad we could help! Good luck with your campaign.

*Switches back to best "intellectual face"*

Now... back to the FRAAAAYYYY!!!!

[missmvicious]

Thief in the Night, Faceroll and McToomin... good points all.

If I were DMing a campaign for you 3, I'd have no choice but to bring it to a vote, make the house rule permanent and probably enjoying watching the dino slip on the ice.

If you were DMing for me, I'd probably enjoy more of the games I was in too. I get frustrated over sloppy DMs who don't think about the game's world and don't even make an effort towards suspension-of-disbelief.

However, if this were happening mid-session, I'd probably roll my eyes and ask when we can get back to the game. LOL... thank goodness for the discussion boards, then, for bringing up these bizarre situations outside of sessions for us to chew on, deliberate over and savor. I'll add this new flavor to my current campaign, the last 3.5 I'm going to DM, but still relevant. We have a Druid who is a first-timer in 3.5. I've never played a Druid (ironically for exactly the same reasons the Playground claims to like the Druid) on any level beyond DMPC or NPC cross-class herbalist merchant. He's really putting an effort into getting into the class and wants to try all kinds of crazy things with it, so it's only a matter of time before something like this comes up.

[ThiefInTheNight]

McToomin: awesome post, and I do agree about them being in serious trouble with the cold despite being warm-blooded. Of course, the entire concept is a house-rule since the rules don't actually cover these things; as a player, I'd definitely want some hard-and-fast rules about how it works. I'd probably also houserule/request a houserule that the Fleshraker has feathers (even though it would most likely not be down sufficient enough to endure the arctic and not likely have a mechanical effect), since really I think it should.

missmcvicious: Yes, this would not be appropriate mid-game, I do agree there. The entire discussion (we need to find me some new forms) seems very much a between-sessions thing.

[Urpriest]

In terms of having a mechanical effect, Frostburn has rules for fur and the like protecting from the cold. Simply say that Fleshrakers don't count as having fur by those rules, while various furry and feathery animals do.