Martial Study (setting sun) for cleric

[Seharvepernfan]

I'm taking it at first level for sense motive, which maneuver would you suggest I choose?

[TroubleBrewing]

More information is required. What level are you starting at? If this is your 1st level feat, I recommend Counter Charge. That one's HILARIOUS if your DM forgets you have it.

[NeoSeraphi]

Mighty Throw! Definitely Mighty Throw! The ability to grab a guy and chuck him 10 feet from you is the definition of Setting Sun, and it's quite hilarious and satisfying to pull off in actual games. (Plus, out of combat it has its uses too, like for all your Helm's Deep LARPing needs ["I cannae make it myself, you'll have to toss me!"])

[Seharvepernfan]

It's for a first level character.

[TroubleBrewing]

Those two are really your only options, then.

At first, you're pretty squishy still. Counter Charge will prevent you from being a smear on a wall from the first big thing you encounter.

Mighty Throw, however, is (as noted above) hilarious. It really depends on your build. If you're eventually going for DMM and have prioritized your strength score, it'll work great as something to do besides hit things with heavy objects early on.

[NeoSeraphi]

Actually, with a full 8+Con hit points and probably at least breastplate armor, I'm sure the cleric will be fine. (Even better if he's using a shield) Assuming he can spontaneously cure, which we admittedly don't know, it depends on whether the cleric intends to go melee, be a healbot, or the party's buff machine, or what.

[TroubleBrewing]

Actually, with a full 8+Con hit points and probably at least breastplate armor, I'm sure the cleric will be fine. (Even better if he's using a shield) Assuming he can spontaneously cure, which we admittedly don't know, it depends on whether the cleric intends to go melee, be a healbot, or the party's buff machine, or what.

If he's going DMM, he's using Cloistered Cleric, which gives him 6+Con, and no proficiency with medium armor.

If he isn't, the point is sort of moot, because he can't even afford breastplate at first level. Max Cleric wealth is 200, and that's if he rolls max on his 5d4. Breastplate alone costs 200, not to mention the cost of the weapon, holy symbol, rations, etc.

Clerics are certainly the least squishy of all the full casters, and they're probably the least squishy of all first level characters (after Barbarian, obviously), but he's still only first level. First level is... mercurial at best with regards to how quickly a fight can turn sour. One lucky Kobold with a longbow and your Cleric has just become the High Priest of the Pincushions. :smalltongue:

[sonofzeal]

Actually, with a full 8+Con hit points and probably at least breastplate armor, I'm sure the cleric will be fine.
Errr....

We can expect the Cleric to have about 10 hp.

A CR 1/2 orc swings for (2d4+4), which gives an average of 9 and a max of 12, with a 18-20 crit range. That's a guaranteed one-shot on a crit, and something like a 40% chance of a one-shot even on a normal hit.

That's on a CR 1/2 monster. By CR guidelines, he could be fighting anything up to CR 3 on a big fight. Last time I played a lvl 1 game, we fought an Ogre. And an ogre is guaranteed to one-shot Mr McCleric on a hit.

(We won by archery. My Ranger, who had the worst stats I've ever seen, managed to crit the ogre for x3 damage and take out most of its hp before it even acted.)

Surviving low levels pretty much comes down to trusting the DM to go way out of his way to protect you, or desperately trying not to take a hit in the first place. Counter Charge is useful for the latter, and for the former it really doesn't matter what you do, "Skill Focus: Underwater Basketweaving" could do you just fine.

[Cespenar]

I'd suggest Counter Charge. As a cleric, you'll already have a lot to do with your standard actions.

Also, I'm not sure of this, but the movement you force your enemy to do with Counter Charge may prove AoOs, because it doesn't say that the forced movement doesn't provoke, as opposed to the Throw maneuvers where it does say so explicitly.

[AngelisBlack]

Actually, with a full 8+Con hit points and probably at least breastplate armor, I'm sure the cleric will be fine. (Even better if he's using a shield) Assuming he can spontaneously cure, which we admittedly don't know, it depends on whether the cleric intends to go melee, be a healbot, or the party's buff machine, or what.


Errr....

We can expect the Cleric to have about 10 hp.

A CR 1/2 orc swings for (2d4+4), which gives an average of 9 and a max of 12, with a 18-20 crit range. That's a guaranteed one-shot on a crit, and something like a 40% chance of a one-shot even on a normal hit.

That's on a CR 1/2 monster. By CR guidelines, he could be fighting anything up to CR 3 on a big fight. Last time I played a lvl 1 game, we fought an Ogre. And an ogre is guaranteed to one-shot Mr McCleric on a hit.

(We won by archery. My Ranger, who had the worst stats I've ever seen, managed to crit the ogre for x3 damage and take out most of its hp before it even acted.)

Surviving low levels pretty much comes down to trusting the DM to go way out of his way to protect you, or desperately trying not to take a hit in the first place. Counter Charge is useful for the latter, and for the former it really doesn't matter what you do, "Skill Focus: Underwater Basketweaving" could do you just fine.

Fine-ly chopped counts. :smallwink:

[JackRackham]

At the risk of being a stupid, stupid-head, why is Cloistered Cleric ideal for DMM?

[NeoSeraphi]

At the risk of being a stupid, stupid-head, why is Cloistered Cleric ideal for DMM?

It's not. It's ideal for Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell, which the board tends to just assume is tacked on to Divine Metamagic even though it's really not.

The reason for this is because a cloistered cleric can Persist divine power and have his BAB be replaced by full BAB, as well as gaining +6 Str. So he loses nothing by the loss of BAB, as opposed to a cloistered cleric without DMM: Persist, who can only stop sucking at fighting for a few minutes per spell.

That said, cloistered cleric itself doesn't lend anything at all to the DMM: Persist build, it's just a really, really good class, and the DMM: Persist helps shore up some of its weaknesses. It's not that cloistered cleric makes DMM:Persist better, it's that DMM: Persist makes cloistered cleric not as painful to take.

[Treblain]

Also, CC gets three domains, so it can use one for Planning, which gives Extend Spell, which is required for, you guessed it, Persistent Spell.

[NeoSeraphi]

Also, CC gets three domains, so it can use one for Planning, which gives Extend Spell, which is required for, you guessed it, Persistent Spell.

That's no better than the cleric though, as one of the CC's 3 domains is required to be Knowledge. So it gets to pick 2 domains, same as the cleric.

[Elric VIII]

That's no better than the cleric though, as one of the CC's 3 domains is required to be Knowledge. So it gets to pick 2 domains, same as the cleric.

Yeah, but Knowledge is a great domain, and it opens you up to cool things like Knowledge Devotion.

[NeoSeraphi]

Yeah, but Knowledge is a great domain, and it opens you up to cool things like Knowledge Devotion.

Okay, fair point. Still this whole thing has been a bit of a derail. Apologies to the OP. My vote is still for Mighty Throw, as the ability to throw someone over your shoulder will allow you to seriously add flavor to your Intimidation attempts

[TroubleBrewing]

One last nitpick about CC over standard Cleric is 6+Int mod skill points. No other full-caster even comes close.

[gallagher]

One last nitpick about CC over standard Cleric is 6+Int mod skill points. No other full-caster even comes close.
except that you are likely not going to have a high INT score. you already need good WIS and CHA, you cant afford to have a bad CON, nor DEX if you are indeed going CC, and STR depends on how early you are starting your game (before you can persist, for instance).

Wizard is focusing on INT, so you can count on it being an 18 at least. if you arent taking a hit to INT you must have rolled well

[Kaje]

Can non-martial adepts take Martial Study at first level? They have to meet the prerequisites for the maneuver, which includes a minimum initiator level. Non-martial adepts can't have IL 1 until level 2.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Can non-martial adepts take Martial Study at first level? They have to meet the prerequisites for the maneuver, which includes a minimum initiator level. Non-martial adepts can't have IL 1 until level 2.

I think its part of the exception to the round down rule. You can't round down to 0 unless its stated otherwise. Non-martial adept IL does not have a provision about having 0 IL so you'll always have IL 1.

[TroubleBrewing]

except that you are likely not going to have a high INT score. you already need good WIS and CHA, you cant afford to have a bad CON, nor DEX if you are indeed going CC, and STR depends on how early you are starting your game (before you can persist, for instance).

Wizard is focusing on INT, so you can count on it being an 18 at least. if you arent taking a hit to INT you must have rolled well

With standard 32 point-buy you can get:

Str: 8
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 18
Cha: 14

With your race as human, you get 8 skills maxed. That's equal to a Wizard with 20 Int at first level (Only really achievable with Deep Imsakari/Fire Elf shenanigans).

[Little Brother]

One last nitpick about CC over standard Cleric is 6+Int mod skill points. No other full-caster even comes close.

Beguiler matches it, I believe.

[candycorn]

except that you are likely not going to have a high INT score. you already need good WIS and CHA, you cant afford to have a bad CON, nor DEX if you are indeed going CC, and STR depends on how early you are starting your game (before you can persist, for instance).

Wizard is focusing on INT, so you can count on it being an 18 at least. if you arent taking a hit to INT you must have rolled well

True...

However, a Cloistered Cleric Human with a 10 intelligence? Gets 28 skill points at level 1.

A human wizard with an 18 intelligence (or a lesser tiefling wizard with a 20 intelligence)? Gets 28 skill points at level 1.

And the cloistered cleric has the better list.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Can non-martial adepts take Martial Study at first level? They have to meet the prerequisites for the maneuver, which includes a minimum initiator level. Non-martial adepts can't have IL 1 until level 2.
There's... actually some suggestion that it was intended that IL-from-non-ToB-classes rounds up. It's not in the rules (and thus not RAW), but the lack of the usual "(minimum 1)" rule (which would be appropriate), and several of the example characters (ugh, yeah, I know) state ILs and/or maneuvers that would only be possible if they'd been rounding IL up, suggests that at least someone at WotC thought it rounded up.

Either way, I've yet to meet a DM who refused 1st-level maneuvers to 1st-level characters with Martial Study, regardless of class, and never would myself.

[gallagher]

Beguiler matches it, I believe.also, though not a full caster, any bard worth his miss-matched socks will surpass it as well. bards still have decent spells and have a great skill set to choose from

[Metahuman1]

Um, this probably goes against the thou shall not give up Caster levels rule of thumb, but have you considered taking a 1-2 level dip in swordsage? Get Setting Sun that way?

Just a though.

Also, there's some things out there that give Cha to HP. A ritual in Eberron books among them that could be helpful with a refluff. Make it part of progressing within an affiliation as a benefit (As per PHB II rules.), and maybe add getting Cha to Fort saves and Concentration checks. Tada, no real need for Con. Could also get Dex dumped if you wanna go for it, which I'd advise cause now you only need some Str and Int, and a Bunch of Wis and Cha.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Um, this probably goes against the thou shall not give up Caster levels rule of thumb, but have you considered taking a 1-2 level dip in swordsage? Get Setting Sun that way?

Just a though.

Also, there's some things out there that give Cha to HP. A ritual in Eberron books among them that could be helpful with a refluff. Make it part of progressing within an affiliation as a benefit (As per PHB II rules.), and maybe add getting Cha to Fort saves and Concentration checks. Tada, no real need for Con. Could also get Dex dumped if you wanna go for it, which I'd advise cause now you only need some Str and Int, and a Bunch of Wis and Cha.

A Setting Sun maneuver is just he by-product here. The OP is taking the feat to get Sense Motive as a Class skill permently. The OP just isn't sure what maneuver to take.

[hex0]

Um, this probably goes against the thou shall not give up Caster levels rule of thumb, but have you considered taking a 1-2 level dip in swordsage? Get Setting Sun that way?

Just a though.

Also, there's some things out there that give Cha to HP. A ritual in Eberron books among them that could be helpful with a refluff. Make it part of progressing within an affiliation as a benefit (As per PHB II rules.), and maybe add getting Cha to Fort saves and Concentration checks. Tada, no real need for Con. Could also get Dex dumped if you wanna go for it, which I'd advise cause now you only need some Str and Int, and a Bunch of Wis and Cha.

Setting up Ruby Knight Vindicator, are we?