Deck of Many Things question

[Silus]

Ok, here's the scenario:

The character in question is in epic levels. They have max ranks in both Use Magic Device and Slight of Hand. They have magical buffs and such to boost the skill checks at least into the 70's.

Question: Using the Use Magic Device and Slight of Hand skills, and rolling high enough, would it be possible to stack a Deck of Many Things (so you got a beneficial card just about every draw)?

[Flickerdart]

You cannot stack a Deck of Many Things because you cannot remove cards from the deck without activating it.

[Cruiser1]

You cannot stack a Deck of Many Things because you cannot remove cards from the deck without activating it.
Not only that, but because it's an artifact divinations don't work to peek at what the next cards to come up are. The only way I know of to optimize a Deck of Many Things is to go back in time if you get a bad card. For example, have an ally who owns an Amulet of Second Chances (MIC) activate it to undo a round if something irreversably bad happens (such as having all magic items you own disappear).

[Stront]

Not only that, but because it's an artifact divinations don't work to peek at what the next cards to come up are. The only way I know of to optimize a Deck of Many Things is to go back in time if you get a bad card. For example, have an ally who owns an Amulet of Second Chances (MIC) activate it to undo a round if something irreversably bad happens (such as having all magic items you own disappear).

In my humble opinion, there should only be two instances where a Deck of Many Things should be introduced into a campaign:


1). The beginning of the campaign, so starting a new character won't be such a big deal.

2). The end of the campaign, so starting a new character won't be such a big deal.

[Shadowknight12]

Or you can just use Telekinesis to get the card you want.

[Tokuhara]

:smalltongue:Dumb question: What happens if you decide to play "52 Pick-Up" with a Deck of Many Things?

[Shadowknight12]

:smalltongue:Dumb question: What happens if you decide to play "52 Pick-Up" with a Deck of Many Things?

Hilarity ensues.

[Tokuhara]

Hilarity ensues.

AKA: Everyone. Make a new character.

[SilverSavio]

Some fun things to do with a Deck of Many Things I've heard about.

1) Past them face down in place of an actual deck of cards at a poker table and then leave.

2) Have a card shark spread them out on a table so that when he flips one he flips them all.

3) Have anyone draw a card saying that he will be able to tell them what card they draw without looking is.

[Coidzor]

The really confusing thing is how it prevents from being activated by being turned upside down. Ah, magic.

[Acanous]

It only activates when observed, one way or another :p

[Andion Isurand]

I forgot the name of the psionic power, but its a form of fortelling the future in which you start concentrating on the power for as long as able while you watch everything as it happens around you. When you cease concentrating, you return "back in time" to the point at which you started concentrating, giving you some manner of insight into how things are probably going to play out.

Using that power, you could predict which cards will turn up, and then goad captured mooks into drawing the bad cards from the deck "in exchange for freedom" and taking the fall in your place.

[Fisticuffs]

Bluff a village into each picking a card, then observe them?

[Flickerdart]

I forgot the name of the psionic power, but its a form of fortelling the future in which you start concentrating on the power for as long as able while you watch everything as it happens around you. When you cease concentrating, you return "back in time" to the point at which you started concentrating, giving you some manner of insight into how things are probably going to play out.

Using that power, you could predict which cards will turn up, and then goad captured mooks into drawing the bad cards from the deck "in exchange for freedom" and taking the fall in your place.
That goes back in time, not forward. You could try the old save game trick, though.

[Qwertystop]

You can draw every card, and hope you get the good ones that can nullify the bad ones before you get the bad ones.

Or the DM says they all happen simultaneously, and you do the same.

Someone put a story about that on the forums a while ago. Guy ended up with a lot of extra stuff, just had to use the Wish to nullify the Death, and so on.

[Tokuhara]

You can draw every card, and hope you get the good ones that can nullify the bad ones before you get the bad ones.

Or the DM says they all happen simultaneously, and you do the same.

Someone put a story about that on the forums a while ago. Guy ended up with a lot of extra stuff, just had to use the Wish to nullify the Death, and so on.

Ok. So throwing a deck of many things is a VERY bad idea

[Darrin]

Or you can just use Telekinesis to get the card you want.

Easier to just toss it into a Handy Haversack. Then just pick the card you want to draw, and pull it out with a move action. Per the Haversack's power, the item you want just happens to be "on top".

[Shadowknight12]

Easier to just toss it into a Handy Haversack. Then just pick the card you want to draw, and pull it out with a move action. Per the Haversack's power, the item you want just happens to be "on top".

That's the best idea thus far.

[tyckspoon]

Easier to just toss it into a Handy Haversack. Then just pick the card you want to draw, and pull it out with a move action. Per the Haversack's power, the item you want just happens to be "on top".

I'm reasonably certain this doesn't actually activate the deck; you'll get that particular card, but when you separate it as 'I want this card' instead of 'I am making a pull from the Deck' it doesn't have any magic power. In order to give it magic, you have to declare it as a pull from the Deck; in order to be a pull from the Deck, it's randomly generated and you can't declare a card.

[Arcane_Snowman]

I'm reasonably certain this doesn't actually activate the deck; you'll get that particular card, but when you separate it as 'I want this card' instead of 'I am making a pull from the Deck' it doesn't have any magic power. In order to give it magic, you have to declare it as a pull from the Deck; in order to be a pull from the Deck, it's randomly generated and you can't declare a card. RAW that's not how it works. It's two separate magical effects, one is "I wish to draw X cards from the Deck of Many Things" which activates it. After that you can use the Handy Haversack's power to draw whichever card takes your fancy.

[tyckspoon]

I disagree; there is no actual RAW regarding exactly what happens if you try to cheat around a Deck of Many Things. I believe the intent and sense of the thing is that a card separated from the deck is not the same thing as drawing from the Deck- essentially, in order to activate the Deck you must be drawing from the entire Deck, which is an essentially random and uncontrollable item. When you ask for just one card out of your Haversack, you're not drawing from the whole Deck; you're just pulling out one of an assortment of 22 decorated cards that have no individual power.

[Arcane_Snowman]

I disagree; there is no actual RAW regarding exactly what happens if you try to cheat around a Deck of Many Things. I believe the intent and sense of the thing is that a card separated from the deck is not the same thing as drawing from the Deck- essentially, in order to activate the Deck you must be drawing from the entire Deck, which is an essentially random and uncontrollable item. When you ask for just one card out of your Haversack, you're not drawing from the whole Deck; you're just pulling out one of an assortment of 22 decorated cards that have no individual power. Emphasis mine. You've moved into RAI (Read As Intended) territory, hence it does not apply to RAW (Read As Written).

You're interpreting rules that are not there, and while it's by no means a stretch or at all a unfair ruling, it does not reflect what has been written.

[grarrrg]

There is, as far as I know, 1 fool proof method to 'cheating' the Deck of Many things.

Level 10 Harrower (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/harrower) (PF PrC)
At tenth level they get

When a 10th-level harrower draws cards from any deck of cards....she may draw an extra card and choose one to ignore and shuffle back into the deck....can also use this ability when drawing cards from magical decks, such as a deck of many things. She may use this ability at will, but must wait 1d4 rounds between each use.

[olentu]

I think the real question is are the individual cards of a deck of many things stated as separate items if they are then perhaps the handy haversack trick would work if not then it does not.

[Jarveiyan]

The mistake is that everyone is forgetting that "the deck" is an artifact and therefore not subject to "normal" majic epic or not. So any spells, psionic abilbities, or non-artifact items will not have the intended effect. I would suggest to any DM faced with such a quandary to have this reaction until the player gets it through his/her thick skull their not going to cheat "the deck" - "Do you draw a card?"(And if they do it activates as normal). I will side with RAI in this case.

[candycorn]

1) Cast Contact Other Plane
2) Ask a greater deity if your first card draw from the deck will be red or black.
3) If Red, ask second. If Black, ask which.
4) Repeat 2 and 3 until you reach a card you cannot bypass. Don't draw that many.

As a deity, it's exempt from the "can't bypass artifacts" rule.

[Qwertystop]

1) Cast Contact Other Plane
2) Ask a greater deity if your first card draw from the deck will be red or black.
3) If Red, ask second. If Black, ask which.
4) Repeat 2 and 3 until you reach a card you cannot bypass. Don't draw that many.

As a deity, it's exempt from the "can't bypass artifacts" rule.

Are the red cards always good or something?

[Urpriest]

The mistake is that everyone is forgetting that "the deck" is an artifact and therefore not subject to "normal" majic epic or not. So any spells, psionic abilbities, or non-artifact items will not have the intended effect. I would suggest to any DM faced with such a quandary to have this reaction until the player gets it through his/her thick skull their not going to cheat "the deck" - "Do you draw a card?"(And if they do it activates as normal). I will side with RAI in this case.

It can't be destroyed by normal magic, but I've never seen anything that prevents normal magic from affecting it in other ways. Divination should work.

[Tyndmyr]

Ok, here's the scenario:

The character in question is in epic levels. They have max ranks in both Use Magic Device and Slight of Hand. They have magical buffs and such to boost the skill checks at least into the 70's.

Question: Using the Use Magic Device and Slight of Hand skills, and rolling high enough, would it be possible to stack a Deck of Many Things (so you got a beneficial card just about every draw)?

I don't see how that would possibly work. Either you activate it or you don't. If you activate it...you get a random card. I'm pretty sure neither shuffling or stacking is going to matter here, since, yknow, magic item. It does what it does without caring about what happened previously.

Edit: Also, by RAW, the deck is an item, and the cards are results. The cards are not statted as individual items. Therefore, the Handy Haversack trick relies on RA/"realism" I to get the "cards are independant items in a deck" while blithely ignoring RAI on not being able to cheat out cards individually. I would not describe it as a RAW trick.

[JaronK]

Not only that, but because it's an artifact divinations don't work to peek at what the next cards to come up are.

I don't believe this is stated anywhere, and there's even a feat that lets you screw with the deck explicitly (it's on Crystal Keep, lets you take the better of two cards each time).

As far as I know, Augery alone can be used to safely draw.

JaronK

[Qwertystop]

With divination, you need to make sure to phrase it right. If you ask "will the first card I draw be good or bad", and the answer of "bad" means that you decide not to draw it, how did the divination work out? Effectively, it's forewarning, but there's a guarantee that you will draw as many cards as you divined the results for. Or predestination doesn't exist.

[Debihuman]

"As soon as one of these cards is drawn from the pack, its magic is bestowed upon the person who drew it, for better or worse. " You can't fling a deck of magic cards and have it affect anyone else. Furthermore, you are supposed to announce how many cards you wish to draw prior to drawing the cards and you can never draw from that deck again. This could be bypassed by DM discretion under exceptional circumstances, but many would consider it cheating.

One way around this is to find someone who has already drawn the allotted cards and cannot draw another. The deck would have no effect on the person and unless the DM says otherwise, that person could stack the deck for you --probably for a hefty price. Plus, the PCs would have to decide whether such an individual was trustworthy enough to do such a thing. Some DMs would argue that the cards cannot be used that way. Clearly, this would depend on what is meant by "drawing a card."

I imagine that the PCs could find an incomplete deck that would have no magical benefit or bane until the last card were found. They could stack the deck prior to finding the lost card. Again, this would depend on the DM's discretion. Of course, there is nothing to prevent a magical deck of cards from shuffling itself.

I generally allow even questionable things in my game as long as they move the story along and aren't simply for PC gain, unless I want to give them a gift. This is one way to boost the party without seeming overly heavy-handed. As the DM, I can stack the deck.

Debby

[Tyndmyr]

Right. Something along the lines of "If I decide to draw cards from this deck, will the first card be good?"

Because if you announce intent to draw, you've activated the deck.

Note that since the fool CAN be permanently eliminated from a deck, it is possible to slightly tilt the odds that way. There are also ways of avoiding or preparing counters for certain other cards.

Balance: Alignment might be awkward for certain builds...for some, not so much. Magical ways of fixing this exist.
Donjon: Have no gear on you, and a buddy standing by to cast Freedom, etc.
Euryale: I got nothin' unless you've got a diety buddy.
Flames: Just a GM plot hook reason to give you something else to kill/run from. Don't worry 'bout it.
Fool: Diplomacy other people into drawing from the deck until this one's gone. 50/50 odds you lose the Jester first, but meh, it's still a good bet to do this.
Idiot: Someone standing by with Restoration.
Rogue: Note that it's an NPC. See also, Flames.
Ruin: Non-magical. Not a concern for most people, but if it is...give away your possessions to someone else with the condition that you be permitted to use them for the remainder of your life. Just to be safe, don't have them on you when using the deck.
Skull: Two options exist even though it appears there is only one. A. Be capable of killing a dread wraith(have buddies cast magical buffs, etc before drawing) or B. be capable of outrunning a dread wraith until you can do A. This one is frequently hilarious. For extra credit, there's also option C. The high powered caster who helps you, and then dispatches the dread wraith that he gets as well. XP for all!
Talons: Make the same deal as per Ruin. Don't be carrying them while you draw.
The Void: The suckiest of the lot, and the one most likely to require a very high level solution. Note that if you opt to draw a large number of cards, the Fates has a 50% shot at coming up first, and should be saved for this.

[Shadowknight12]

The mistake is that everyone is forgetting that "the deck" is an artifact and therefore not subject to "normal" majic epic or not. So any spells, psionic abilbities, or non-artifact items will not have the intended effect. I would suggest to any DM faced with such a quandary to have this reaction until the player gets it through his/her thick skull their not going to cheat "the deck" - "Do you draw a card?"(And if they do it activates as normal). I will side with RAI in this case.

The entire point of the deck is to cheat it.

[Tyndmyr]

The entire point of the deck is to cheat it.

Well, that or destroy campaigns forever.

[JaronK]

Augery: "If I take the top card of the deck, will that be a good idea?" If it says "Weal" cast the spell again and ask "If I take the top card of the deck, then the next top card of the deck, will that be a good idea?" If it says "Weal and Woe" ask "If I take the top card of the deck, then skip the next card and take the second card from the top, will that be a good idea?" If it says "Weal" continue... each time Woe comes up, ask about skipping that card.

Completely safe drawing, just takes repeated castings of Augery. I recommend a wand. And nothing in RAW prevents this.

JaronK

[Tyndmyr]

Augery: "If I take the top card of the deck, will that be a good idea?" If it says "Weal" cast the spell again and ask "If I take the top card of the deck, then the next top card of the deck, will that be a good idea?" If it says "Weal and Woe" ask "If I take the top card of the deck, then skip the next card and take the second card from the top, will that be a good idea?" If it says "Weal" continue... each time Woe comes up, ask about skipping that card.

Completely safe drawing, just takes repeated castings of Augery. I recommend a wand. And nothing in RAW prevents this.

JaronK

While I agree that you can use Augery in this fashion, I disagree that you can select which cards to draw. That's not an explicitly granted power, and again, is treating cards like individual objects, which, while pretty clearly the way decks of cards normally work...is not a RAW property of the deck.

Still, spotting out the pattern of good and bad is a useful thing.

[Lapak]

The entire point of the deck is to cheat it.I'm pretty sure that the entire point of the Deck is to randomly inflict either boons or banes on anyone who tries to draw from it. Anything that takes away from that (divination about what card will be drawn, allowing people to draw anything but the top card, and so on) removes the point of the artifact. It's supposed to be pure chaos injected into a party that's adventurous enough to risk drawing from it.

None of which says that you can't allow just that, or that it isn't within reason by RAW, just saying that the original design was specifically meant to be a gamble.

[JaronK]

While I agree that you can use Augery in this fashion, I disagree that you can select which cards to draw. That's not an explicitly granted power, and again, is treating cards like individual objects, which, while pretty clearly the way decks of cards normally work...is not a RAW property of the deck.

RAW, you draw from the deck. Lacking anything else, this means you draw from the deck just like you'd normally draw from any other deck... meaning you'd just take whatever card you want.

Remember, by RAW you're supposed to model this by literally drawing cards out of a deck.

JaronK

[Safety Sword]

Easier to just toss it into a Handy Haversack. Then just pick the card you want to draw, and pull it out with a move action. Per the Haversack's power, the item you want just happens to be "on top".

Amazing. You reach in and... pull out a Deck of Many Things, since that's the item you stored.

And then you apply your Dodge bonus against a flying DMG sneak attack.

[Shadowknight12]

Well, that or destroy campaigns forever.

Campaigns are crystal figurines. A strong wind can destroy them forever. That's not much of a point for the deck.


Augery: "If I take the top card of the deck, will that be a good idea?" If it says "Weal" cast the spell again and ask "If I take the top card of the deck, then the next top card of the deck, will that be a good idea?" If it says "Weal and Woe" ask "If I take the top card of the deck, then skip the next card and take the second card from the top, will that be a good idea?" If it says "Weal" continue... each time Woe comes up, ask about skipping that card.

Completely safe drawing, just takes repeated castings of Augery. I recommend a wand. And nothing in RAW prevents this.

JaronK

You can't skip cards. RAW says that once you start drawing, you must do so continuously until you draw the number of cards you announced. If you don't, the cards draw themselves. So every time you skip a card, it draws itself and you get the Woe.


I'm pretty sure that the entire point of the Deck is to randomly inflict either boons or banes on anyone who tries to draw from it. Anything that takes away from that (divination about what card will be drawn, allowing people to draw anything but the top card, and so on) removes the point of the artifact. It's supposed to be pure chaos injected into a party that's adventurous enough to risk drawing from it.

None of which says that you can't allow just that, or that it isn't within reason by RAW, just saying that the original design was specifically meant to be a gamble.

Yes, the deck is a gamble. And gambles are meant to be cheated.

There is no point in engaging in a fair, actual gamble. Logically speaking, throwing whatever assets you have (your character, for example) on the line for the 'potential' of a reward, is rather stupid. So nobody in their right mind would do that. Instead, you cheat the deck because that's the only reasonable thing to do. Sure, you can do all sorts of crazy things with magic items and artifacts ("Guess where I put Vecna's Eye. I'll give you a hint. It's not in my eye socket. :smallamused: ") but the only sane course of action, for the deck, is to cheat it.

Anything else you do with it is either unwise or insane.

[JaronK]

Really, the Deck is poorly thought out in many ways. Sure, you can game it with divination and such, but even if you don't it throws campaigns horribly out of whack. Heck, with divinations it's actually better for the campaign... having every player get 5 good cards out of it still results in a balanced (if suddenly much stronger) campaign, while having two get 5 good cards and two get destroyed utterly sucks.

And yes, you can skip cards. You have to draw the appropriate number of cards within a time limit, but they don't say WHICH cards you take. Nothing stops you from taking the second card from the top, or the third, or the bottom if you so desire.

JaronK

[huttj509]

And yes, you can skip cards. You have to draw the appropriate number of cards within a time limit, but they don't say WHICH cards you take. Nothing stops you from taking the second card from the top, or the third, or the bottom if you so desire.

JaronK

When playing poker, try drawing your cards from the middle of the deck and see how far that gets you.

I have never seen a card game where the phrase "draw a card from the deck" meant you could do other than taking the top card from the deck.

[Flickerdart]

...

Step 1: Announce that you will draw a card from the deck.
Step 2: Get out your pencil and paper and draw the Sun card.

:smallwink:

[MesiDoomstalker]

...

Step 1: Announce that you will draw a card from the deck.
Step 2: Get out your pencil and paper and draw the Sun card.

:smallwink:

You forgot step 1.5: Declare "DM" as the target for your Dodge feat.

[Flickerdart]

I took Expeditious Dodge so that I can dodge books from the other players, too.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I took Expeditious Dodge so that I can dodge books from the other players, too.

But to achieve the speed neccesary to activate for base human (like yourself) requires a double move. Good thing you don't have to do a Run action, you'll lose your dex to AC nullifying its benefits.

[Lapak]

There is no point in engaging in a fair, actual gamble. Logically speaking, throwing whatever assets you have (your character, for example) on the line for the 'potential' of a reward, is rather stupid. So nobody in their right mind would do that. Instead, you cheat the deck because that's the only reasonable thing to do. Sure, you can do all sorts of crazy things with magic items and artifacts ("Guess where I put Vecna's Eye. I'll give you a hint. It's not in my eye socket. :smallamused: ") but the only sane course of action, for the deck, is to cheat it.

Anything else you do with it is either unwise or insane.What you're describing is exactly the point of the Deck of Many Things.

EDIT: To clarify, the fact that playing with it is someone no rational person would do.

[JaronK]

When playing poker, try drawing your cards from the middle of the deck and see how far that gets you.

That's dealing, and in poker it is indeed traditional to skip a card with each deal.


I have never seen a card game where the phrase "draw a card from the deck" meant you could do other than taking the top card from the deck.

Fair enough, but there's nothing saying you can't shuffle the deck in between draws (in fact, the rules talking about cards getting replaced indicate you're supposed to do precisely that). So yes, you could draw, then shuffle, then draw, then draw, then shuffle... or something along those lines. I see nothing to stop that. Skipping a card is just a faster version of that.

JaronK

[Nachtritter]

There is only one way to ever get the better of a Deck of Many Things.

Step 1: Find deck
Step 2: Leave deck where it is

One of my favorite dungeons involved a Deck of Many Things lying in the middle of the floor, along with a skeleton, as if a previous party's member pulled out a card, got Deck'd, and the rest of the party said "AW HELL NAH" and just left it where it was.

... Naturally, the PCs picked it up, and two of them got sucked into the void while the other one wished himself into a "living statue."

There were no survivors.

[Coidzor]

When playing poker, try drawing your cards from the middle of the deck and see how far that gets you.

I have never seen a card game where the phrase "draw a card from the deck" meant you could do other than taking the top card from the deck.

Which is different because 1. you're talking about a card game and 2. a card is drawn from the deck of many things if it's exposed to your view by your own power.

The more appropriate DM responseis to make it so that they're random until they're viewed, at which point they count as drawn, so sucks to be anyone who has the bottom of the deck flashed into their peripheral vision.

[Flickerdart]

The more appropriate DM responseis to make it so that they're random until they're viewed, at which point they count as drawn, so sucks to be anyone who has the bottom of the deck flashed into their peripheral vision.
Nope; they still need to have declared an intent to draw cards.

[Shadowknight12]

What you're describing is exactly the point of the Deck of Many Things.

EDIT: To clarify, the fact that playing with it is someone no rational person would do.

Nonsense. If it exists in the game, it's there to be exploited by the characters.

That's like, Rule Zero for PCs.

[TurtleKing]

Well just so you know Pika drew 23 cards with his character surviving that with only minor penalties.

I agree a Deck of Many Things should only be used at the beginning or end of a campaign.

Also HI Silus.

[Crossblade]

Obligatory Reference:

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/915921481_CxKAV-L.jpg

[Tyndmyr]

RAW, you draw from the deck. Lacking anything else, this means you draw from the deck just like you'd normally draw from any other deck... meaning you'd just take whatever card you want.

Remember, by RAW you're supposed to model this by literally drawing cards out of a deck.

JaronK

Well...it's not quite that simple. For one thing, you've got the cards flipping out on their own condition. For another, there's the stating the number of cards to be drawn. And the inability to ever draw cards again afterward. Clearly, in a number of ways, it differs from a standard deck of cards.

The assumption of "I can take whatever card I want" is one not present in every english use of "draw a card". In many, many games, the unstated assumption is that you draw off the top of a pile. Probably most games.

Certainly, when the cards draw themselves, they're not drawing whatever card you want, but in an order determined by the deck. There's no rule to show that it should be different for you.

Remember, the rules are permissive. If it doesn't say you can, then you can't.


That's dealing, and in poker it is indeed traditional to skip a card with each deal.

Some versions of poker do have drawing. You most certainly cannot draw off anywhere you like in these.


Fair enough, but there's nothing saying you can't shuffle the deck in between draws (in fact, the rules talking about cards getting replaced indicate you're supposed to do precisely that). So yes, you could draw, then shuffle, then draw, then draw, then shuffle... or something along those lines. I see nothing to stop that. Skipping a card is just a faster version of that.

JaronK

No, it's not at all. Draw, skip, draw has entirely different probabilities than draw, shuffle, draw. This is a non RAW argument that still isn't even correct.

Shuffling between draws is something I'd agree to be expected. This does not in any way help you select cards better. After all, you have to pick the number before drawing.

[JaronK]

Shuffling between draws is something I'd agree to be expected. This does not in any way help you select cards better. After all, you have to pick the number before drawing.

It never says you have to draw all at once, does it? It just says you have to draw them all before a specific time. So it's perfectly legit to say "I'm going to draw 5 cards" and then draw two, shuffle, draw another, shuffle twice, draw two more. Or do you see any RAW reason that shouldn't work? Feel free to quote the entry. And don't just say the rules don't say you can... the general case is that you can shuffle cards, since card games do exist in D&D.

In which case, ask exactly as I said earlier, but instead of skipping cards, shuffle. It works out exactly the same, probability wise. The skipping method is just easier to implement in real life, because it's faster. But nothing stops you from asking things like "If I draw the top card, then shuffle the cards, then draw the top two cards, will that be a good thing?" And then if you got "Weal and Woe" say "If I draw the top card, then shuffle the cards, then draw the top card, then shuffle the cards, then draw the top card, will that be a good thing?" "Weal." And continue from there.

Or if you'd like to skip cards via another method, use summoned monsters with hands. Both declare at once. That way you can say "If I draw the top card, then he draws the top card, then I draw the top two cards, will that be a good thing for me (assuming I don't care what happens to my summoned creature)?" That method work for you? It's functionally just like the "draw, skip, draw" method, but the only thing that happens to the deck is drawing. You just make sure summons draw the bad cards.

JaronK

[Tyndmyr]

It never says you have to draw all at once, does it? It just says you have to draw them all before a specific time. So it's perfectly legit to say "I'm going to draw 5 cards" and then draw two, shuffle, draw another, shuffle twice, draw two more. Or do you see any RAW reason that shouldn't work? Feel free to quote the entry. And don't just say the rules don't say you can... the general case is that you can shuffle cards, since card games do exist in D&D.

"Each time a card is taken from the deck, it is replaced (making it possible to draw the same card twice) unless the draw is the jester or the fool, "

A shuffle is implied by that, yes, I agree. However, it's not an elective shuffle. It'll happen every time unless you draw one of the two specified cards.


In which case, ask exactly as I said earlier, but instead of skipping cards, shuffle. It works out exactly the same, probability wise. The skipping method is just easier to implement in real life, because it's faster. But nothing stops you from asking things like "If I draw the top card, then shuffle the cards, then draw the top two cards, will that be a good thing?" And then if you got "Weal and Woe" say "If I draw the top card, then shuffle the cards, then draw the top card, then shuffle the cards, then draw the top card, will that be a good thing?" "Weal." And continue from there.

You get a random card each time. The shuffling is merely a mechanism done with the real life cards used to represent the deck itself to ensure randomness.

There is no reason to assume that either the randomness or the shuffling is elective.


Or if you'd like to skip cards via another method, use summoned monsters with hands. Both declare at once. That way you can say "If I draw the top card, then he draws the top card, then I draw the top two cards, will that be a good thing for me (assuming I don't care what happens to my summoned creature)?" That method work for you? It's functionally just like the "draw, skip, draw" method, but the only thing that happens to the deck is drawing. You just make sure summons draw the bad cards.

JaronK

Cards get replaced after drawing, and shuffled back in. Two possibilities exist.

A. Augury knows the future, and predicts the post shuffle result. In this case, your fate is truly immutable, and all your attempts to thwart fate are already calculated in.
B. Your actions post-augury change the impending fate. Augury fails, because the question is non specific.

Neither outcome gets you completely what you want.

However, you CAN still arrange ways to avoid as many bad results as possible, and use augury repeatedly to figure out how many cards may be safely drawn. This number might be 0, but hey...if it's not...win.

[JaronK]

You ask multiple times... that's the point. You only do the thing that Augery gives a complete "Weal" response for. This is why you need many castings of the spell.

So yes, Augery does lock in to the question of "IF I did X, what would happen." If the answer is "Woe" or "Weal and Woe" don't do it. If it's Weal, ask about doing it plus an extra action. Continue until you've exhausted all your Augeries, and do the last thing it said would give you a "Weal" response.

So yeah, you either shuffle when you would have drawn a bad card, or you have a summoned creature draw when you would have drawn a bad card, or do whatever it is you need to do to have something else happen to the bad card so you can then draw a good card instead.

JaronK

[ThatLovin'Elan]

Obligatory Reference:

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/915921481_CxKAV-L.jpg

Quoted for truth.

My first campaign that went anywhere was brought to a snappy conclusion by a Deck of Many Things. Most of those things turned out to be imprisonment in a mirror, getting attacked by a Dread Wraith, and being sent directly to the Lower Planes.

[ThatLovin'Elan]

Obligatory Reference:

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/915921481_CxKAV-L.jpg

Quoted for truth.

My first campaign that went anywhere was brought to a snappy conclusion by a Deck of Many Things. Most of those things turned out to be imprisonment in a mirror, getting attacked by a Dread Wraith, and being sent directly to the Lower Planes.

[Giant]

I believe you are not strong enough then.

[Shadowknight12]

A better solution for the Augury cheat is to go with this:

"If I draw the topmost card, will it be good?" If it says Weal, draw it. If it says Woe, shuffle the deck and ask again.

That avoids the unpleasantness of debating whether you can skip cards or not, as shuffles are clearly allowed.

[JaronK]

I always wanted to get attacked by the death thing, so I could disarm that sweet weapon of his... it automatically hits! Power Attack all the way, every time, no drawbacks.

JaronK

[Shadowknight12]

I always wanted to get attacked by the death thing, so I could disarm that sweet weapon of his... it automatically hits! Power Attack all the way, every time, no drawbacks.

JaronK

What are you talking about? The Death card (Or Skull) makes you face an ordinary Dread Wraith. It says nothing about a weapon that automatically hits.

[Lapak]

What are you talking about? The Death card (Or Skull) makes you face an ordinary Dread Wraith. It says nothing about a weapon that automatically hits.In 2nd edition or earlier, the Deck would summon a minor Death to go after you. Always struck first in every round, always hit, inescapable, good AC, good hit points.

[JaronK]

3.0 too, actually. I guess they figured out somewhere along the way that the Skull had suddenly become the best possible card to get.

JaronK

[Lapak]

3.0 too, actually. I guess they figured out somewhere along the way that the Skull had suddenly become the best possible card to get.

JaronKNot really. The entry in no way implies that the 'never misses' quality is at all related to the weapon. Just says '...attacks with a scythe for 2d8 damage every round, never missing...'

If a DM decided to turn the 'horribly lethal' card into an 'awesome treasure' card, well, that's their choice to make I guess.