About reflexes saves and blind/grappled targets

[Dazed&Confused]

Hai. First, let me illustrate the situation... I'm the wizard in my group and I constantly cast Glitterdust to separate some of the enemies. There is also a sorcerer in the group who constantly casts fireballs, and in our last meeting he had the idea of casting them right after my Glitterdust, since he thought blinded creatures couldn't make reflexes saves, because they can't see anything coming at them. There is nothing said about that in the description of the condition though... Similar thing happens with grappled targets; perhaps they shouldn't be able to make reflexes saves, since they're, erm, grappled. But nothing is said about that in the description of this condition, either.

Then a discussion started, and our DM came to the conclusion that if a creature gets the save when a fireball comes from behind, which she can't see coming, then blinded creatures could do it aswell. I told him that even if you have turned you back to something it doesn't mean you're not watching it, when someone flanks you, your dexterity still applies to AC - so it's not the same as being "blinded"... but it didn't convince him. What do you guys think?

[faceroll]

I think the rules are fine as they currently are.

[Necroticplague]

A grappled character can still move, and even use the person he's wrestling to deflect some of the heat. A person who is blinded can still hear a fireball coming, and know to duck for cover. Even if they were blind and deaf, their other senses would tell them a fireball is coming (their sense of feeling could detect when it gets hot before it becomes dangerously so, they can smell the sulfurous scent the ball emits).

[tyckspoon]

By RAW, everybody gets a save as normal. There are very few things that can deny a save entirely; even a completely helpless/paralyzed creature can still roll its Reflex against an attack, although it's treated as having Dex 0 when it does so (so a -5 penalty in place of its usual Dex bonus, which usually means it fails.. but it gets the attempt.) If you insist on some bonus, borrowing from the Flatfooted/struck by an undetected attacker rules would probably be most sensible; creatures getting blown up by something they can't see do not get their Dex bonus to their Reflex save, just as they would not get it to their AC from a weapon attack.

[Dazed&Confused]

By RAW, everybody gets a save as normal. There are very few things that can deny a save entirely; even a completely helpless/paralyzed creature can still roll its Reflex against an attack, although it's treated as having Dex 0 when it does so (so a -5 penalty in place of its usual Dex bonus, which usually means it fails.. but it gets the attempt.) If you insist on some bonus, borrowing from the Flatfooted/struck by an undetected attacker rules would probably be most sensible; creatures getting blown up by something they can't see do not get their Dex bonus to their Reflex save, just as they would not get it to their AC from a weapon attack.

True, it's kind of weird, but since it's specified that a helpless creature can try reflexes saves, blinded cratures surely should aswell. Thanks

[Herabec]

Eh. I don't give helpless creatures reflex saves, but that's about the only time.

Example: Players held down an Orc Warchief for interrogation, had him all tied up to the chair - whole nine yards. Threatened him with a wand of lightning bolt. He told them to shove it up their...uh.. Well, told them no, so they blasted him in the chest with the wand.

Being helpless as he was, I decided he wouldn't get a reflex save simply because...he was helpless. You don't get saves vs. Coup de Gras after all.

When it comes to blinded/grappled though, I think getting their saves as normal is sufficient. In grapples, I usually see it as both participants of the grapple temporarily diving for cover before being toasted, while blind guys are simply badass and thus dodge anything anyway.

[Necroticplague]

Being helpless as he was, I decided he wouldn't get a reflex save simply because...he was helpless. You don't get saves vs. Coup de Gras after all.

Yes, you do, its a fort save

[ericgrau]

There are rules to suggest that complete immobility removes the ability to make reflex saves in certain circumstances, so it would make sense to extend this to everything. However that should be when you're pinned, not merely grappled. For everything else mentioned, there's the DMG fudge rule, i.e. "Just slap a -2 on it and call it a day." This second one is entirely at the DM's discretion of course. The first one kinda is too but at least there are a couple RAW examples like traps to suggest no way to move out of the way = no reflex save.