[3.P] Build Advice

[Emery1261]

New to the boards, new to pathfinder. Looking for some advice on these and help on choosing a direction. Basically I've only played fighter, warblade, crusader and I'm looking to branch out, maybe try some magic. Sources available are the PRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/) and the d20 PFSRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/).

Not looking for cheese but I'm not wanting to make a build that won't be viable in later game scenarios. Looking at these classes: Oracle (Ancestor mystery), Summoner (Synthesist), Ninja, Monk (Master of Many Styles/Qingong).

Oracle (Ancestor mystery): I love the flavor of this class. From what I understand it's close to a Favored Soul? What is this class' survivability in melee with the Ancestor mystery? What roles can this class fill? How good is the Rage Prophet prestige class?

Summoner (Synthesist): The mechanics of this class interest me quite a bit. How well does this class fare in combat? Would it be a better idea to use natural attacks or a manufactured weapon? If manufactured weapons are better should I go 2h or multiple weapons? How well can this class emulate a monk in unarmed damage? Am I relegated more to a bestial type eidolon with bites, claws, stingers, etc.? What roles can this class fill?

Ninja: I'm right in saying this is just a reflavored rogue with ki, correct? If I took this from 1-20 will I have difficulty keeping up at the later levels? What is a good prestige class to compliment or improve on this class? Is TWF pretty much my only option with this class for good DPR?

Monk (Master of Many Styles/Qinggong): I've heard monks start to fall behind in the later levels without using spells like enlarge person, how much difficulty will I have running this build in the later game without spells that enlarge my character? Will I need to multiclass often to keep from falling behind? Would I be better off with Monk/Psychic Warrior/Psychic Fist?

Any thoughts/advice/insight to these classes?

[Malachei]

Regarding the Summoner, I've played one and had a great time (action economy).

For more information:

Summoner's Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184592) by Saph, and in particular:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11266673&postcount=169 for two Synthesist builds.

Also:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217271

[ThatLovin'Elan]

Any thoughts/advice/insight to these classes?

Something you should know about Pathfinder is that because the base classes got so many tweaks, it is usually not necessary to find a prestige class (unlike in 3.5 where if you weren’t out of your class by 5 you were probably doing something wrong). Almost every class is viable 1-20.

1. An Oracle is 90% Cleric. If you can do it on a Cleric, you can do it on an Oracle. Ancestor Mystery doesn't look bad for combat, though Battle Mystery is understandably a good choice for the concept. Rage prophet is decent, though the builds I've seen just dip one level of Oracle and do the rest Barbarian before heading into Rage Prophet. You'll be: Buffing, healing, smacking things, and doing a little battlefield control.

2. The Synthesist Summoner is a mess of rules debates. You'll be: Clutching your head, screaming in frustration. I would run as fast as possible. If you want to try regular Summoner, you’d be three-quarters of a Fighter plus two-thirds of a Sorcerer. The Eidolon beats things up, you buff and support the party.

3. Yes, a Ninja is mostly a Rogue with Ki. You’ll inherit most of a Rogue’s strengths and weaknesses, meaning TWF is a possibility, but not the only one. Sneak Attacks work from range, meaning sniping is possible, and THF (with a good strength score) could work; problem is you’re a bit more MAD than the standard Rogue because you need CHA for your Ki pool. You would be: Sneaking around, disarming traps, talking your way out of bad situations, and turning invisible.

4. A Master of Many Styles/Qinggong monk is distinctly better than straight Monk; your class abilities tend to mesh more, and you can do reasonable damage running around the battlefield even when you can’t get a full attack; a Hungry Ghost/Qinggong crit fishing monk is a possibility, as is a Martial Artist 5/Barbarian X (Martial Artists have no alignment requirements). The Psychic Warrior is more versatile than the Monk, and the DSP Psychic Warrior and Psychic Fist are both excellent. You would be: Wu-Xia'ing all over the place. Punching people in the face and doing acrobatic stunts.


With both Ninja and MoMS Monk, you’ll be a contributing member of your party as long as everyone is in the tier 3-4 (even 2-4) range. If the rest of the party is a Wizard, a Druid, and a Cleric, anyone but a 2/3 or full caster is going to have a hard time keeping up. If your party is a Bard, a Ranger, and an Inquisitor, a Ninja or MoMS is going to feel right at home.

[Emery1261]

Something you should know about Pathfinder is that because the base classes got so many tweaks, it is usually not necessary to find a prestige class (unlike in 3.5 where if you weren’t out of your class by 5 you were probably doing something wrong). Almost every class is viable 1-20.

Well, that's good to know. I hate having to shop around through 18 splat books finding something that meshes well, is accepted by the DM, isn't a pit fall, etc..


1. An Oracle is 90% Cleric. If you can do it on a Cleric, you can do it on an Oracle. Ancestor Mystery doesn't look bad for combat, though Battle Mystery is understandably a good choice for the concept. Rage prophet is decent, though the builds I've seen just dip one level of Oracle and do the rest Barbarian before heading into Rage Prophet. You'll be: Buffing, healing, smacking things, and doing a little battlefield control.

From what I've seen with battle I get Skill at Arms and the final revelation I can essentially pounce. By that time shouldn't I be able to find some way to to do that anyway? I've only seen 1 oracle handbook and it didn't talk much about builds through the levels, tactics, or equipment. Am I missing some important threads on this class? Should I just go cleric?


2. The Synthesist Summoner is a mess of rules debates. You'll be: Clutching your head, screaming in frustration. I would run as fast as possible. If you want to try regular Summoner, you’d be three-quarters of a Fighter plus two-thirds of a Sorcerer. The Eidolon beats things up, you buff and support the party.

I was worried about this. It seems this class isn't as viable later game as the others.


3. Yes, a Ninja is mostly a Rogue with Ki. You’ll inherit most of a Rogue’s strengths and weaknesses, meaning TWF is a possibility, but not the only one. Sneak Attacks work from range, meaning sniping is possible, and THF (with a good strength score) could work; problem is you’re a bit more MAD than the standard Rogue because you need CHA for your Ki pool. You would be: Sneaking around, disarming traps, talking your way out of bad situations, and turning invisible.

I have heard that SA is harder to pull off now. True I can SA Undead/Constructs but grease, blink, and splash damage doesn't work anymore? Can I get a confirmation on this? Are there any good gish builds I can make from this class or is that not worth it in PF.


4. A Master of Many Styles/Qinggong monk is distinctly better than straight Monk; your class abilities tend to mesh more, and you can do reasonable damage running around the battlefield even when you can’t get a full attack; a Hungry Ghost/Qinggong crit fishing monk is a possibility, as is a Martial Artist 5/Barbarian X (Martial Artists have no alignment requirements).

I'm splitting this since it's two options. Without tashalatora what options do I have for damage while moving around? Dimensional Dervish looks like it might help but is there anything else? They also seem to still have the same issue of overcoming DR and don't really do much without enlarge person. What can I look into for fixing these issues?


The Psychic Warrior is more versatile than the Monk, and the DSP Psychic Warrior and Psychic Fist are both excellent. You would be: Wu-Xia'ing all over the place. Punching people in the face and doing acrobatic stunts.

DSP? Not familiar with that acronym. At any rate, with PsyWar will I still be relying on enlarge person and 2h weapons to do decent damage? What advantage does PsyWar have over Oracle?


With both Ninja and MoMS Monk, you’ll be a contributing member of your party as long as everyone is in the tier 3-4 (even 2-4) range. If the rest of the party is a Wizard, a Druid, and a Cleric, anyone but a 2/3 or full caster is going to have a hard time keeping up. If your party is a Bard, a Ranger, and an Inquisitor, a Ninja or MoMS is going to feel right at home.

Hmmm, true. So I really need to wait to see where the other players are going to go. I think I am trying to fit too much into a single build.

[Curious]

For either the Summoner or the Oracle build, you can get an extra move action by grabbing the Experimental Wordcaster feat, and netting Accelerate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/effect-words/accelerate).

[Zagaroth]

DSP = Dream Scarred Press, the publishers of the psionic pathfinder rules.

D20 PFSRD has them here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed)

[ThatLovin'Elan]

Well, that's good to know. I hate having to shop around through 18 splat books finding something that meshes well, is accepted by the DM, isn't a pit fall, etc..

Yup. Even though Paizo has put out a lot of stuff for Pathfinder, it's all cataloged nicely (and for free!) on the SRD.


From what I've seen with battle I get Skill at Arms and the final revelation I can essentially pounce. By that time shouldn't I be able to find some way to to do that anyway? I've only seen 1 oracle handbook and it didn't talk much about builds through the levels, tactics, or equipment. Am I missing some important threads on this class? Should I just go cleric?

It's pretty hard to get Pounce-like abilities in pure Pathfinder. I specifically add 3.5 options to the PF games I DM to help with this...if you DM plays "pure" PF, you're better off finding ways to maximize your standard actions.

I absolutely love Oracles; I feel like they're a more flavorful, customizable Cleric. Most advice for Clerics just works for them.


I was worried about this. It seems this class isn't as viable later game as the others.


The Summoner is extremely viable at all levels. Your Eidolon will pretty much always being putting out reasonable damage (a quadruped Eidolon can even get poune :P), and your spell list, while limited, gets good spells faster and at lower spell level. In a game I DM, the Summoner just hit level 4 and now has Haste. He'll eventually get Gate as a spell like ability 3+CHA modifier times/day and create demiplanes with his "discounted spells. Summoners are tier 2/tier 3 and are great team players, the Synthesist Summoner just has way too many rule head-scratchers for my taste; others will disagree.


I have heard that SA is harder to pull off now. True I can SA Undead/Constructs but grease, blink, and splash damage doesn't work anymore? Can I get a confirmation on this? Are there any good gish builds I can make from this class or is that not worth it in PF.

Here's the deal: It's true that at the highest optimization levels, Rogues suffered in PF. Grease got nerfed, at lot of their favorite gear choices don't exist anymore.

At low to mid optimization levels, Rogues made out like, well, bandits. D8 hit die, consolidated skill system, most enemies weak to sneak attack without any kind of feat investment, Rogue talents every even level...there's a good argument to be made that they moved up a tier. If you have a reliable partner to flank with, you're going to be doing sneak attack consistently anyway.


I'm splitting this since it's two options. Without tashalatora what options do I have for damage while moving around? Dimensional Dervish looks like it might help but is there anything else? They also seem to still have the same issue of overcoming DR and don't really do much without enlarge person. What can I look into for fixing these issues?


The Style Feats can do a lot for improving your standard actions, and, yes, the Dimensional Dervish line of feats will eventually give you teleport+full attack. What DR are you worried about? As long as you have a point in your Ki pool, you're overcoming magic DR at 4th level. And why do you feel Enlarge Person is so necessary to playing a monk? True, it's good for any melee, but I don't feel like Monk benefits any more than anyone else unless you're trying for a CMB build.


DSP? Not familiar with that acronym. At any rate, with PsyWar will I still be relying on enlarge person and 2h weapons to do decent damage? What advantage does PsyWar have over Oracle?

Dreamscarred Press; they're the publisher who puts out Pathfinder Psionics stuff. Expansion (psionic enlarge person basically) is always good. THF is good, but you can make a good natural-attack focused Psychic Warrior.


Hmmm, true. So I really need to wait to see where the other players are going to go. I think I am trying to fit too much into a single build.

Also, another important point: What is the optimization level of the group?

[ThatLovin'Elan]

For Monk, check out this boss I'm building: Right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219396).


With his single attack, expending one use of Elemental Fist and one use of Stunning Fist:

1d8 + 1 1/2 STR modifier + 2d6 cold + WIS (cold damage) + 1/2 STR damage
-Reach of +5 ft
-Fort save or become entangled in ice for 1d4 rounds
-Fort save or become stunned for one round and shaken for 1d4 rounds +STR mod

He'll have 8/9 uses of elemental fist/day and 6/7 uses of stunning fist/day.

I traded out Slow Fall and High Jump for Barkskin and Spring Attack...though there are better choices, he's focused around doing single, devastating attacks.

[Emery1261]

First off, thanks for the help guys, I know I have a lot of questions. I've only ever played Warblade and Fighter. So no magic and I've never been good at optimizing. Mainly I'm looking to either play a stealthy ninja type with extra powers or a swordsman type with extra powers.


It's pretty hard to get Pounce-like abilities in pure Pathfinder. I specifically add 3.5 options to the PF games I DM to help with this...if you DM plays "pure" PF, you're better off finding ways to maximize your standard actions.

How can I maximize my standard actions? Would I be better with PsyWar and getting psionic lions pounce, or whatever that power is?


I absolutely love Oracles; I feel like they're a more flavorful, customizable Cleric. Most advice for Clerics just works for them.

I really like the flavor of the class as well. But, as I've said, i've never played a caster before so I'm completely lost on classes that include spells. The only thing that worries me is that Oracles are spontaneous casters and only know so many spells where as a cleric knows ever spell on his list he just has to prepare them. I'm leaning more towards Haunted curse with Ancestor mystery if I go this route. I lose out on Skill at Arms and the 20th level pounce from Battle but how many campaigns actually make it that far? You've said what works for clerics works for oracles, is there a specific handbook I should be reading? I have found one on oracles (it goes over stats, spells, feats but not much else) is there another one? Which cleric handbook should I take a look at?


The Summoner is extremely viable at all levels. Your Eidolon will pretty much always being putting out reasonable damage (a quadruped Eidolon can even get poune :P), and your spell list, while limited, gets good spells faster and at lower spell level. In a game I DM, the Summoner just hit level 4 and now has Haste. He'll eventually get Gate as a spell like ability 3+CHA modifier times/day and create demiplanes with his "discounted spells. Summoners are tier 2/tier 3 and are great team players, the Synthesist Summoner just has way too many rule head-scratchers for my taste; others will disagree.

I meant that the synthesist summoner would not be as viable as I thought it would be through out the later levels. My main thought was to have an "armor" eidolon and use manufactured weapons but from what you've said and what I've read you're right, there seems to be a lot of debate as to exactly how the class abilities work.


Here's the deal: It's true that at the highest optimization levels, Rogues suffered in PF. Grease got nerfed, at lot of their favorite gear choices don't exist anymore.

At low to mid optimization levels, Rogues made out like, well, bandits. D8 hit die, consolidated skill system, most enemies weak to sneak attack without any kind of feat investment, Rogue talents every even level...there's a good argument to be made that they moved up a tier. If you have a reliable partner to flank with, you're going to be doing sneak attack consistently anyway.

Interesting. Would you suggest Ninja or Rogue in this case?


The Style Feats can do a lot for improving your standard actions, and, yes, the Dimensional Dervish line of feats will eventually give you teleport+full attack. What DR are you worried about? As long as you have a point in your Ki pool, you're overcoming magic DR at 4th level. And why do you feel Enlarge Person is so necessary to playing a monk? True, it's good for any melee, but I don't feel like Monk benefits any more than anyone else unless you're trying for a CMB build.

I've basically only ever heard monks suck. I've not seen a build that didn't include enlarge person somehow and now that INA doesn't work what other options do I have to increase damage output. I love the thought of running around punching the crap out of people and going wuxia all over the place but from what I've read, and I could be reading the wrong things, is that monks suck and are only good for dips. Can you combine Hungry Ghost/MoMS/Qinggong?


Dreamscarred Press; they're the publisher who puts out Pathfinder Psionics stuff. Expansion (psionic enlarge person basically) is always good. THF is good, but you can make a good natural-attack focused Psychic Warrior.

Natural attack? Like claws and bites? There's just something about enlarge person that I do not care for from an RP stand point. I know I don't have to take it but I'm afraid if I don't I won't be keeping up.


Also, another important point: What is the optimization level of the group?

Haven't had a chance to meet them yet so I'm more in reconnaissance mode right now.