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[Doomboy911]

Right this will be a pain. We're doing this dungeon crawl where we'll reach level 20 or 21 and we have to fight a dragon. The dragon has 10 levels rogue 10 levels arcane trickster and 10 levels shadow dancer. The dungeon has four floors and it has a kind of slope to it so no floor is directly above or below another floor(Which ruins my plan of dropping the ceiling on the dragon). It's a great wurm copper dragon getting ready to reach godhood, he has immunity to wish and miracle that are focused solely on him (there goes the plan of just wishing it away). Are cleric is not of tiamat (so we can't summon an avatar of the tiamat to simply help us fight). If I use a mirror of opposition on the dragon it apparently has a high enough diplomacy skill to convince it to help kill us (so there goes that plan). I most likely won't be able to purchase a dragon orb to control the dragon (bye bye plan). We have 1 cleric 1 witch 1 paladin with a flying adamantine t-rex with a movement speed of 520 feet a round, 1 rogue and 1 frenzied berserker we're currently level 10 and gained five levels which we need to spend on levels. We've got a chance to buy supplies and what not lots of gold to buy it.

So you're in this situation how would you handle this thing?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Tell your DM hes crazy for sending a Great Wurm, which has something around 40-ish HD to begin with, and stacking and optimized set of 30 class levels on top of a 20-ish level party. Then Bite Him!

EDIT: Thats 78 HD. Not sure what all those classes HD are but I'm going to assume d6s. So thats 38 d12s and 30d6s with a 27 Con. Lets take a look at just its average HP shall we?

38*6.5+30*3.5+78*8=966 HP on average. Thats not factoring in Epic Con boosting Items that are well within range of a 78 HD Great Wurm.

Its BAB is going to be 53 and cast as a 19th level Sorcerer. It's saves are going to be so massively high that its safe to say it won't fail any save except on a Natural 1. Not to mention is SR of, at least, 31.

This thing will destroy a very near or recently epic party.

[Godskook]

That's a CR ~50ish dragon. If your DM is playing it anywhere *NEAR* its capabilities, you're so screwed you're probably pregnant already.

Is this PF or 3.5, cause I can give 3.5 advice but not PF, unless your DM allows 3.5 sources, but even then, I'm not sure what ports properly.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'm pretty sure has enough raw Strength and Sneak Attack damage, coupled with a ton of Natural Attacks, to drop at least 1 PC on a suprise round, if not more if theres more in range (and their really should be).

[Shadowknight12]

Chain-gate solars (mindrape them if you have to). Then may the gods help you all.

[missmvicious]

Of course, it is a sandbox world. Just don't fight the dragon. Why are you fighting it anyway, aren't they supposed to be CG?

The way I see it, there are a million things you can do, but we'll stop after the top three:

1. Live to fight another day: Sometimes, you just have to know when to run. Go stat crunch on some appropriately leveled opponents for a while and earn your stripes. When you're ready to take on a would-be dragon-god, have at it. In the meantime... go hunt down that Tarrasque and pick a fight.

2. Call for backup: Unless your DM is actually trying to kill you off, he probably hinted at some item, ally, or other Deus Ex Machina somewhere in his plot point that you might not have picked up on. Go back to the nearest town and start hunting down some kind of legendary hero or some analog thereof and start chatting that NPC up... maybe offer a little GP to get the conversation to go your way. If that fails, head to the nearest temple and pray for divine intervention. Maybe the DM will take pity on you and send you an avatar of Kord or Bahamut to even the playing field.

3. Spread the love: Copper dragons are not inherently evil, so this may not be a combat encounter. Maybe it's a skill challenge. If your copper dragon is doing evil things, then maybe it's just misunderstood. At which case, lead with your most CHArismatic player and Aid the bajeezus out of him/her. The dragon may stop doing whatever is bothering the townsfolk, or may at least strike a deal with you that is mutually beneficial, prefaced by a more theatrical version of this, "Go on this quest to accomplish a task I probably could've just done myself... but if you do it and come back successfully, I'll stop being such a pain in the neck to the townsfolk, and I'll even give you some kind of reward that doesn't even come close to reflecting your effort put into it, but you'll have something even better: a memory of friendship and camaraderie... and in the end isn't that what this crazy thing called life is all about *cheesy dragon smile*."

[Mystral]

Maximised Shivering Touch

[Gotterdammerung]

Maximised Shivering Touch

What is the SR on something like that?

If SR isn't a problem you could probably have everyone buy a higher spell storing item and have the caster stock them up with avasculate.

A concerted effort of avasculates with a little action economy could probably take his hit points back down into the mortal realm.

He will probably be immune to power word kill but surely you can drum up the damage for a killing blow once he is in the 100 hp range. 1-3 people might die first but meh.

[Mystral]

great wyrm copper dragons have SR 32. Party is level 20-21, or approaching, so with assay spell resistance, SR is not a problem, I think. Without Assay Spell Resistance.. Well, what are you doing without that spell at such a high level hunting dragons? Oo Get a knowstone or wand or something.

[byrd-man]

lol. your dm just hates you... i remember a DM that used to denote 100 HP as a box... we went against this dragon that had like 30 boxes... all the players took a strategic smoke break sans DM and decided to go to IHOP instead.

he never pulled that one again.

if that is not what your DM is like then i would have to say that there is a "think outside the box" solution that probably doesnt even involve combat... i would seriously prepare myself for an epic riddle... which it seems you are doing. its just a game, and if its not fun, then its not a good game...

or you can draft lvl 50 versions of your party and go into it with a secret smile on your face :smallbiggrin:

[Rimeheart]

Hold on, you said the dungeon is on a slope? With the lowest level being the one with the dragon? Is this dungeon built into a mountain or some thing? If you have enough gold just make the whole place collapse on him. You could selectively blow up the place to make a land slide in the direction of the dungeon so it get's crushed any way. OOooh, use your money to hire mercenaries lots and lots of mercenaries! Where mercenary could be a friendly high lvl cleric of tiamat or some thing else!

[Gotterdammerung]

Hold on, you said the dungeon is on a slope? With the lowest level being the one with the dragon? Is this dungeon built into a mountain or some thing? If you have enough gold just make the whole place collapse on him. You could selectively blow up the place to make a land slide in the direction of the dungeon so it get's crushed any way. OOooh, use your money to hire mercenaries lots and lots of mercenaries! Where mercenary could be a friendly high lvl cleric of tiamat or some thing else!

by slope he meant like this

_____ floor 1
_______ Floor 2
________floor 3
_________floor 4

[Balor01]

WTF is such a strong entity doing on the lowest level of this dungeon? In dragons shoes I'd have it: diplomacy all creatures in the dungeon to help me (be my own army), then rip out, and tear quite a few new holes ... to the plane.

I mean cmon ... and how can you as PCs know his stats in such detail? He should have mindblank on all the time so no scrying.

This is silly to begin with. If dragon does not like these PCs they should be dead already.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Make sure you actually have level 21, then have the Cleric take Epic Spellcasting, and then win everything ever because that's what Epic Spellcasting does.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. Improved Heighten Spell at level 21.
2. Earth Sense + Earth Spell + Heighten Spell. Sandals made from stone slabs if necessary.
3. Divine Metamagic: Heighten and a boatload of Night Sticks.
4. Caster level 100 Dictum.

[jindra34]

Sanctum spell+Arcane Fusion+ Hail of stones? only needs like 6 levels in Sorcerer, and allows you to drop essentially however many d4s of damage on the thing as you want, no save, sr or attack rolls required. Then again its high grade cheese but that kind of stuff seems like the only answer here.

[Godskook]

Make sure you actually have level 21, then have the Cleric take Epic Spellcasting, and then win everything ever because that's what Epic Spellcasting does.

That requires research time, which, based on the description, is *NOT* available.

[jindra34]

That requires research time, which, based on the description, is *NOT* available.

Not the cheesed out versions with a Spellcraft DC of zero.

[ThiefInTheNight]

The description says they're level 10 and they'll be fighting this thing at level 20-21. That... seems to me like it's quite a lot of time. There's something in there about gaining 5 levels, but that's still just 15...

[Jeraa]

Not the cheesed out versions with a Spellcraft DC of zero.

Yeah, the rules allow spells to have enough mitigating factors to reduce the Spellcraft DC to 0. And since the cost of developing the spell (in time, gold and experience points) is based on the final DC, its possible to instantly develop spells with 0 gold and experience cost at any time (After you get the feat, of course).

[Godskook]

Yeah, the rules allow spells to have enough mitigating factors to reduce the Spellcraft DC to 0. And since the cost of developing the spell (in time, gold and experience points) is based on the final DC, its possible to instantly develop spells with 0 gold and experience cost at any time (After you get the feat, of course).

1.I could've *SWORN* there was a minimum development time.

2.DC 0 spells require so much mitigation that they probably take longer than a day to setup. At least one worth bring to the table against an CR ~50 threat.

3.Epic spells require DM approval by *DIRECT* RAW, rather than indirect RAW like splatbooks. This puts a damper on what epic spells outside of what's already printed you are actually able to develop.

[Diefje]

Buy virgins and sacrifice them to him. I'm sure he'll be very appreciative, and if he does reach godhood, you guys can be all the highpriests because you were "in before it was cool".

Bonus points if one of the virgins is the paladin.

[Waker]

I found the idea of the mirror of opposition comical, so I'll roll with that idea. In order to prevent him from diplomancing his goateed duplicate, use an extended, widened Silence spell on either a party member to shadow the clone or onto an item which is sovereign glued to him. Have one of the spellcasters ready to counterspell his attempts to dispel silence (or just have the rogue use a scroll of greater dispel.)
Other important things to remember when dealing with this uber dragon is having at least one member buffed with True Seeing (to ignore the illusions he's no doubt using.) Telepathy will help coordinate the party, especially if the above mentioned silence is used. Dimensional Anchor will also be your friend when it comes to preventing his shadow jump ability from coming into play. You'll want a number of transmutation spells to counter his earth manipulation spells (rock to mud, disintegrate and so on.)
I could probably think of more, but I'm getting distracted.

[Doomboy911]

Alright let me help organize the thinking process we've got here. First off we can use both pathfinder and 3.5 so go nuts in looking for stuff. Second I need help in picking classes I don't know if I should start dipping into the spellcasting pool or amp up my fighting power. I'd like to improve on my fighting but I can't find anything significantly powerful, also I can't find a spellcasting class that is powerful around level 10 (maybe sorceror or summoner). Third I was thinking of taking the leadership feat and getting 50 quasits or fairies as my followers and a shadow demon to possese me as a cohort. He'd have 17 cleric levels and be able to use my body. I'd be able to frenzy while he controls me tons of power plus control and spellcasting.Fourth the dm is telling us about this dragon so we're properly prepared for this beast.

I had new plans;
one involved the leadership and give my followers tons of fireworks which have a blinding effect if he fails his save. Along with that I was going to buy a couple thousand training dummies and turn them all into animated objects and make it permanent. I send my big army at the dragon and hopefully we all do enough damage before his killing joke. I think if I have my shadow demon possese me and take a few levels of cleric than become a geomancer I might be able to use his drift thing to buff the heck out of my barbarian.

What do you think of this plan?

[Gavinfoxx]

How about combining these spells in some form or other:

Enervation
True Casting
Shivering Touch
Assay Spell Resistance
Spectral Hand
Arcane Fusion
True Strike
Limited Wish

and various Rods of Metamagic. Also, the Celerity line. You see where I am getting at? Dragons tend to have a Dex of 10...

Of course Rod of Maximize, Rod of Empower, Rod of Twin Spell, etc.

[Jeraa]

and various Rods of Metamagic. Also, the Celerity line. You see where I am getting at? Dragons tend to have a Dex of 10...

Normal dragons maybe. This is an advanced dragon, with rogue, arcane trickster, and shadowdancer levels. Its dexterity is most likely higher then normal.

[Gavinfoxx]

Normal dragons maybe. This is an advanced dragon, with rogue, arcane trickster, and shadowdancer levels. Its dexterity is most likely higher then normal.

Possibly. Not necessarily, though. None of that stuff inherently adds to its dex...

[MesiDoomstalker]

Possibly. Not necessarily, though. None of that stuff inherently adds to its dex...

I wouldn't put it past this DM to actually roll and distribute stats for this boss.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, but how high would the dex of the creature have to be for an 'all in' assault on it's dex stat for purposes of paralyzing (then CdG with a scythe or some other crazy powerful x4 weapon, no proficiency needed, you get an autocrit) it be LESS efficient than dealing hit point damage to it?

Provided you don't have an ubercharger?

Just don't let the DM *know* you are planning on attacking it's dex score...

[Jeraa]

Possibly. Not necessarily, though. None of that stuff inherently adds to its dex...

The dragon has to have a dexterity that is somewhat higher then normal. Becoming a shadowdancer requires the Dodge and Mobility feats, both of which require a Dex of 13. So we know that this dragons dexterity is higher then normal, just not by how much. And those classes usually (but not always) seen as dexterous. I know it isn't required, but when I think of rogues, I think of Dexterity.

Even if it is bumped up, attacking the dragons dexterity is still probably the best bet.

[Slipperychicken]

Get the FB or Pally to deal thousands of damage on a charge (read: charge optimization), get him a pair of Fiendish Graft Feathered Wings (10k), put an AMF on him, and hope your DM didn't remember the CL check to get past AMFs.


You could also try to get the Paladin/Cleric's god to build an Aleax of the dragon (that thing IS threatening cosmic balance after all, you could probably get multiple Aleaxs to go after it, One for each god.). Then basically have a (slightly) stronger version(s) of the dragon help you kill it.

...How did you get a flying adamantine T-Rex?

[DonutBoy12321]

Have your Cleric become a Necropolitan, take a level of Tainted Sorcerer, and have him/her cast a ton of spells. The save DCs should be high enough to beat the dragon.

[Gotterdammerung]

Get the FB or Pally to deal thousands of damage on a charge (read: charge optimization), get him a pair of Fiendish Graft Feathered Wings (10k), put an AMF on him, and hope your DM didn't remember the CL check to get past AMFs.

AMF's don't work very well against monsters that are too large to fit entirely in them. Basically the dragon won't fit in the whole thing, so he can still cast. Essentially, AMF would just let the pld and physical ranged characters to have a non-magic mundane dmg war with the dragon. And thats a war they would probably lose.

I still say abuse spell storing to give everyone in the party a joint effort combo kill.

I.E. buncha dex reducing spells spread out over the party. or
Avasculate tricks.

[JaronK]

Spell storing arrows, each with one casting of Maximized Shivering Touch in there... that's likely to be your best bet. Though honestly, the "no Mirror of Opposition" thing makes me think your DM won't let you just one shot TKO this guy.

JaronK