A possibility for fixing highly variable spells like polymorph/summon monster

[Angry Bob]

Power imbalance is bad. When I'm bored, I mull over ways to fix it.

Split spells like polymorph and summon monster and similar spells into many spells that summoned or transformed into a specific creature. So instead of learning polymorph, you'd need to learn polymorph into bulette, polymorph into babau, etc, separately.

As it stands, all of these types of spells are strong because of their ridiculous versatility, which only expands when a new book becomes available.

Does this change make them balanced or make them unusably weak?

I realize that this screws over the sorcerer more than the wizard, but one step at a time. I have ideas for that as well, but they aren't well thought-out at this point and aren't what this thread is about anyway.

[Elfinor]

*Nods* It's a good idea, but you're not the first. Pathfinder has split the Polymorph spell into several different categories. Most, if not all, of the pertinent spells are linked to Shapechange (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shapechange) on their SRD. It's less of a waste of spell known for a sorcerer to take it when categorised this way. I think it works out better than the one spell=one creature system. What do you think of the fix?

EDIT: I suppose the categories would have to be applied manually to the Summon Monster spells (PF doesn't apply a fix in this way) - but I personally find those less of a problem anyway.

[Runestar]

They are already trying something similar with the various polymorph subschool spells (which actually change you into that monster, stats and all).

Personally, I feel it is still easier to try and resolve this issue out-of-game. Speak with your player, get him to understand the rationale and try to decide on a pre-determined number of forms before the game, plus prepare all relevant game info before playing. So maybe at lv7, the wizard could choose 1 form for combat (say either treant or annis hag) and 1 form for mobility/scouting, and ignore all other options. :smallsmile:

[Gotterdammerung]

*Nods* It's a good idea, but you're not the first. Pathfinder have split the Polymorph spell into several different categories. .

Simpson's did it!


eeer i mean pathfinder did it.

[Elfinor]

They are already trying something similar with the various polymorph subschool spells (which actually change you into that monster, stats and all).That sounds interesting. Have they released a book or updated the PFSRD with some of these yet or is this something that's still on the way?

[VladtheLad]

Having the same idea with the original poster I came up with these houserules for polymorph:

Polymoprh:
Polymorph self is a now a series of spells. Polymorph I-IX. Also each Polymorph spell allows you to take only one form. Each different form needs a different spell.
You can assume the form of a creature with a cr equal to the polymorphs level*2-2. So a 1st level spell will allow you to assume a 1*2-2=1/2 cr form. While an 8th level will allow you to assume a 8*2-2=14 Cr form.

You become the exact replicate of the creature (your mental scores can't fall bellow 3 though) and loose all your own abilities including spellcasting. You also never gain gain a creatures spellcasting or spell-like abilities.

The hp damage is analogous to each form. So if you have 50hp and the creature you shapeshift to has 100 hp and you take 50 hp damage while shapeshifted, you have 25 hp damage when you return to your human form.
Likewise if you have lost 25 hp in your normal form, you are minus 50 hp in the polymorph form.

[Runestar]

That sounds interesting. Have they released a book or updated the PFSRD with some of these yet or is this something that's still on the way?

Here's an example of such a spell. Generally, they follow the same format. Are a swift action to cast, you literally replace your stats with those of the monster's, and gain some temp hp. However, some powerful monsters like beholders have a limit on how often they may spam their innate abilities.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=5

That said, these spells are all over the place. There's more of them in Complete mage, PHB2 and possibly some other books that slip my memory at the moment.

[darksolitaire]

stuff

Sounds a bit complicated. How often your group uses polymorph with that fix?

[Elfinor]

Here's an example of such a spell. Generally, they follow the same format. Are a swift action to cast, you literally replace your stats with those of the monster's, and gain some temp hp. However, some powerful monsters like beholders have a limit on how often they may spam their innate abilities.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=5

That said, these spells are all over the place. There's more of them in Complete mage, PHB2 and possibly some other books that slip my memory at the moment.Oh I remember this one! I never really read them through but they seem much more relevant if you take the PF fix (or the OP's idea, this could work as an extension or base to that) into account. Not that they wouldn't have had their advantages even without it I suppose, but y'know... flexibility. Cheers.

[Morph Bark]

Here's an example of such a spell. Generally, they follow the same format. Are a swift action to cast, you literally replace your stats with those of the monster's, and gain some temp hp. However, some powerful monsters like beholders have a limit on how often they may spam their innate abilities.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=5

That said, these spells are all over the place. There's more of them in Complete mage, PHB2 and possibly some other books that slip my memory at the moment.

While I ban Polymorph in general, I would certainly allow these. They're great and awesome.

[wayfare]

While I ban Polymorph in general, I would certainly allow these. They're great and awesome.

Building these from scratch wouldn't be too easy, but its a flavorful fix. Of course, whats to stop a mage from learning all of them? Is the ability to only prepare a few an effective limit (if so, I'll def use these!)

[VladtheLad]

Sounds a bit complicated. How often your group uses polymorph with that fix?

Not that often but its not due to complexity reasons ( I actually think its less complicated than the original Polymorph spell). It makes a great fall back, when you are low on spells, so they use it as last ditch effort. Its not sth they fling left and right but most of the times the wizard has one memorized.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I like Rich's houseruled polymorph rules.

[tyckspoon]

Building these from scratch wouldn't be too easy, but its a flavorful fix. Of course, whats to stop a mage from learning all of them? Is the ability to only prepare a few an effective limit (if so, I'll def use these!)

The need to have flexibility in other things, usually. Say "Polymorph: medium animal" is a 1st level spell. You can turn into a Wolf/hawk/whatever your particular spell was for 10 min. That's pretty useful, and worth a spell slot.. but if you want to be able to turn into every useful medium animal, you have to pay for 5-10 different spells and devote 5-10 spell slots just to that. Your cost for pretending to be a Druid is not having Grease or Mage Armor or Sleep or Color Spray or..ten other really good spells prepared instead.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Sounds a bit complicated. How often your group uses polymorph with that fix?

I use something similar, and it's not that complicated at all; you grab the stats right out of the appropriate monster book and use those, complexity done. My rules go as follows:

Pick a monster out of the books, you're a perfect replica of that monster, with two exceptions.

1) You keep your own Int (to allow animal and mindless forms without special exceptions for some spells, and to prevent "I'm going to change into something much smarter and make some Knowledge/Spellcraft checks to pull knowledge out of thin air!")

2) Any "limited-use" abilities aren't available, since if it's not usable every round all day it's not sufficiently part of the creature's "essence" to be changed into. No efreeti wishes, no dragon breath, no innate spellcasting, no making use of any handy SLAs or Su abilities balanced by their limited uses.

Keeping your own Int/Knowledge/etc. stats on top of a monster's stats and crossing off anything not usable at will isn't hard or time-consuming at all.


The hp damage is analogous to each form. So if you have 50hp and the creature you shapeshift to has 100 hp and you take 50 hp damage while shapeshifted, you have 25 hp damage when you return to your human form.
Likewise if you have lost 25 hp in your normal form, you are minus 50 hp in the polymorph form.

Question: Does healing work the same way? If so, you could do things like change from a high-level character with 20/80 HP, say, to a 1-HD creature with 2/8 HP and heal up 60 HP with a single cure light wounds--only situationally useful for a polymorph # spell, but shapechange gets even more broken that way.

[ILM]

Having the same idea with the original poster I came up with these houserules for polymorph:

Polymoprh:
Polymorph self is a now a series of spells. Polymorph I-IX. Also each Polymorph spell allows you to take only one form. Each different form needs a different spell.
You can assume the form of a creature with a cr equal to the polymorphs level*2-2. So a 1st level spell will allow you to assume a 1*2-2=1/2 cr form. While an 8th level will allow you to assume a 8*2-2=14 Cr form.

You become the exact replicate of the creature (your mental scores can't fall bellow 3 though) and loose all your own abilities including spellcasting. You also never gain gain a creatures spellcasting or spell-like abilities.

The hp damage is analogous to each form. So if you have 50hp and the creature you shapeshift to has 100 hp and you take 50 hp damage while shapeshifted, you have 25 hp damage when you return to your human form.
Likewise if you have lost 25 hp in your normal form, you are minus 50 hp in the polymorph form.
I use a very similar houserule, except that it's just one spell, not 9 (in order not to gimp Sorcs). The level of the spell is 2 for the purposes of learning it, and afterwards it is whatever level you prepare or cast it at. Here's the full text:


Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz, variable
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: One round
Range: Touch
Target: Willing creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell can be prepared in (or cast from, for spontaneous caster) a slot of any level, but is level 2 for the purposes of learning it and/or scribing it in one’s spellbook. When casting this spell, the caster chooses a single non-unique creature of any type or size. The assumed form’s HD or CR (whichever is higher) cannot exceed either twice the level of the spell’s slot, or the touched target’s HD.
The target uses the assumed form’s entire stat block instead of his for the duration of the spell. In particular, he looses any spellcasting from his original form, (Sp), (Su) and (Ex) abilities, but gains those from the assumed form. He retains his languages known (but can only speak if the assumed form is capable of it) and mental scores only for the purposes of general understanding, communication and other role-playing considerations.
All magical effects with a duration other than Instantaneous created while in the assumed form end when the target reverts to his original form. All abilities of the assumed form that would have cost XP if they had been spells (such as an Efreeti’s (Su) Wish) cannot be used by the target of a Polymorph spell.
Any prior lost hit points of the target are transferred to his new form (i.e. if the target has 50 hp left out of 70 and is turned into a form with a maximum of 100 hp, he will have 80 hp in his new form until healed). Should that result in his having negative or zero hp in his new form, the spell fails. Any other penalties, ability damage or drain, or other ongoing negative (or positive) effects are also carried over to the new form. Existing hit point damage and other conditions are also carried over when the target reverts to his original form – however, there is no special safeguard related to negative hit points. In other words, Polymorphing cannot be used to reset negative conditions or hp totals.

Others have suggested to me to add caps on the bonuses gained: number of attacks, natural armor, etc. Seems like a lot of book-keeping and I've already been pretty harsh on the HD/CR limits so I'll see how this version plays out before tacking on more stuff to it.

A simpler fix I considered for a while: the Polymorph spells stay as they are, but you have to choose a form when preparing the spell in the morning (including Sorcs, even if they don't prepare spells per se).


Sounds a bit complicated. How often your group uses polymorph with that fix?
Honestly, even my admittedly more wordy version is simpler than remembering what types you're allowed, which ability scores change, which abilities you keep and which you lose, and so on. Just grab the monster entry, this is what you're playing now - end of story.

[Elfinor]

No one has really discussed summoning from the original post, though the OP hasn't really replied yet. Do people feel that the Summon Monster/Nature's Ally I-IX spells need a nerf along these lines? Aside from the whole 'full casters in general need a nerf' derailment, I mean:smallredface:

[Eldan]

Summon has a few problems. Mostly, I think the creatures summoned aren't actually all that good at combat, and they don't last long enough in the early levels. (Spend a turn to summon a dog for one turn? Yeah.) On the other hand, they are basically ability multipliers: with a high level summoning spell, you can summon creatures which can cast many more spells as spell-like abilities.
Couatls are sorcerers, and they can planeshift. Lillends are bards. Leonals can heal. Sure, there are easier ways to get those spells, but summons are very versatile.

[VladtheLad]

I use something similar, and it's not that complicated at all; you grab the stats right out of the appropriate monster book and use those, complexity done. My rules go as follows:

Pick a monster out of the books, you're a perfect replica of that monster, with two exceptions.

1) You keep your own Int (to allow animal and mindless forms without special exceptions for some spells, and to prevent "I'm going to change into something much smarter and make some Knowledge/Spellcraft checks to pull knowledge out of thin air!")

2) Any "limited-use" abilities aren't available, since if it's not usable every round all day it's not sufficiently part of the creature's "essence" to be changed into. No efreeti wishes, no dragon breath, no innate spellcasting, no making use of any handy SLAs or Su abilities balanced by their limited uses.

Keeping your own Int/Knowledge/etc. stats on top of a monster's stats and crossing off anything not usable at will isn't hard or time-consuming at all.


Hmm I might try doing it this way. Up until now my solution was no spell-like abilities or spellcasting and you get the forms intelligence score (if its lower than 3 it remains 3) but maybe this way is better, I 'll have to check the monster manual and find which of the two works better.
(I wouldn't count dragons breath weapon as a limited use ability in any case though)



Question: Does healing work the same way? If so, you could do things like change from a high-level character with 20/80 HP, say, to a 1-HD creature with 2/8 HP and heal up 60 HP with a single cure light wounds--only situationally useful for a polymorph # spell, but shapechange gets even more broken that way.

Yes.
But, first of all no shapechange (else polymorph self IX becomes a joke).
Shapechange excluded I am not sure if it really matters how healing works. This is an out of combat situation anyways where healing is pretty easy to come by.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Hmm I might try doing it this way. Up until now my solution was no spell-like abilities or spellcasting and you get the forms intelligence score (if its lower than 3 it remains 3) but maybe this way is better, I 'll have to check the monster manual and find which of the two works better.
(I wouldn't count dragons breath weapon as a limited use ability in any case though)

I counted a 1d4-round recharge as not being at-will for (A) simplicity, as at-will being defined as "once per round, every round, all day" doesn't leave room for many misunderstandings or differing interpretations and (B) power reasons, since dragons and other breath weapon+melee creatures tend to be the better forms to turn into to begin with. If you think it would be fine for your playgroup, go right ahead and allow that, it shouldn't cause too many problems.


Yes.
But, first of all no shapechange (else polymorph self IX becomes a joke).
Shapechange excluded I am not sure if it really matters how healing works. This is an out of combat situation anyways where healing is pretty easy to come by.

I assumed you'd replaced the other polymorph spells, but I thought I'd check just in case.

[VladtheLad]

Summon has a few problems. Mostly, I think the creatures summoned aren't actually all that good at combat, and they don't last long enough in the early levels. (Spend a turn to summon a dog for one turn? Yeah.) On the other hand, they are basically ability multipliers: with a high level summoning spell, you can summon creatures which can cast many more spells as spell-like abilities.
Couatls are sorcerers, and they can planeshift. Lillends are bards. Leonals can heal. Sure, there are easier ways to get those spells, but summons are very versatile.

I never had much problem with summon spells except the fact that most players find it hard to cope with all the choices and rarely use them to their fullest potential.

You could give it the polymoprh treatment though and say that you can only summon a specific creature with each spell. The creature should be slightly more powerful than those summoned with the official summon monster spell, say with a CR equal to spell level*2-3?

On another note what would happen to clerics (who officialy know all the spells) and druids who use summon natures ally?

[Elfinor]

I never had much problem with summon spells except the fact that most players find it hard to cope with all the choices and rarely use them to their fullest potential.

You could give it the polymoprh treatment though and say that you can only summon a specific creature with each spell. The creature should be slightly more powerful than those summoned with the official summon monster spell, say with a CR equal to spell level*2-3?

On another note what would happen to clerics (who officialy know all the spells) and druids who use summon natures ally?Clerics and druids can still only prepare one version at a time, so it loses most of flexibility. This isn't much of a deal to more casual players (I've rarely had an issue with it either, that's why I asked), but impacts powergamers to a greater extent:smallamused: though it doesn't remove all the options, they just have to decide it in the Vancian manner.

Eldan, I know Neverwinter Nights 2 gave summons a duration of 3 rounds +1/round per level so that seems like a reasonable house rule.