Monk->Warshaper?

[CIDE]

I'm aware of some other threads that briefly touch on this build. I was looking for something a little different though.

Character would be as follows:
Template: Half-Minotaur
Base Creature: Human
Class: Monk
Vow of Poverty*

*I'm well aware that a proper equipment build can out do the Vow. I've already done it. I'm primarily doing this to partially compliment the Warshaper build (story reasons) and just to be a good roleplayer. Which, some of the guys I game with are not. Gotta set a good example.

I want to avoid spellcasting to get the required shapechanging for the Warshaper. As far as I know that leaves psionics or further templates. Psionic fist is a common choice because of the relation with monk but I'm wondering if there are any better choices?

Finally, I have always liked the Acolyte of of the Fist class. I'd like to squeeze it in but it's not really a requirement. It's pretty troublesome anyway since you can't take levels in anything else once you start until you're done with all 10.

The game would include epic levels so 20 isn't a cap. I do however want to potentially include a build plan for a 20 game and a non-20 game.

Any ideas, opinions, thoughts, or input on the matter?

[Thiyr]

My absolute favorite entry into warshaper is being a changeling. If you can do that instead of being human, it could very well be to your advantage, especially with how you get the benefits pretty much always on.

[HunterOfJello]

Changeling is good

Quasilycanthrope +1 LA template from the wotc website is also very good. It just gives the Shapechanger subtype and DR 10/Silver

[CIDE]

Those were some quick responses.

Changelings from Races of Eberron? I considered it but was unsure. I just really liked the benefits of the Half-Minotaur template like the 50ft land speed at level 1 (never mind the level adjust) and the 1d8 gore attack starting out too.

Think I'm over thinking it all?

This Quasi-lycanthrope?:
"Quasilycanthropes

Quasilycanthropes are giants or humanoids with a trace of lycanthropy in their bloodlines. A quasilycanthrope is indistinguishable from other members of its humanoid or giant kind until it is exposed to lycanthropy from a lycanthrope of the same kind as the quasilycanthrope, whereupon its latent lycanthropic traits emerge. For example, a quasiwerewolf requires exposure to lycanthropy from a werewolf. When a latent quasilycanthrope is exposed to the curse of lycanthropy and fails its saving throw (see the Lycanthrope entry in the Monster Manual), it does not become an actual lycanthrope; instead, its quasilycanthrope abilities emerge.

Creating a Quasilycanthrope

"Quasilycanthrope" is an inherited template that can be added to any humanoid or giant (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Size and Type: The base creature's type does not change, but the creature gains the shapechanger subtype. The lycanthrope takes a few characteristics of some type of carnivorous or omnivorous creature of the animal type (referred to hereafter as the base animal).

The animal can be any predator, scavenger, or omnivore whose size is within one size category of the base creature's size (Small, Medium, or Large for a Medium base creature).

A quasilycanthrope uses the base creature's statistics and special abilities in addition to those described here.

Special Qualities: A quasilycanthrope retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains those described below.

Disguise Self (Su): A quasilycanthrope can shift its own form ever so slightly. This works just like a disguise self spell cast at the quasilycanthrope's character level except that the guises the quasilycanthrope can assume must involve some aspect of the base animal. For example, a quasiwerewolf can grow shaggy hair and pointed canine teeth. A quasiweretiger can grow whiskers and a tail. The quasilycanthrope cannot change body types or give itself natural weaponry.

Damage Reduction (Ex):A quasilycanthrope has damage reduction 10/silver.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +1.

Treasure: Standard.

Alignment: Any. Noble creatures such as bears, eagles, and lions tend to produce good-aligned quasilycanthropes. Sinister creatures such as rats, snakes, and wolves tend to produce evil-aligned quasilycanthropes. This tendency is a reflection of how these animals are perceived, not any innate quality of the animal itself, so the alignment of the animal form can be arbitrarily assigned.

Advancement: By character class.

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +1."

I'm not sure about the availability of a lycanthropic curse in the roleplay. As awesome as the template would be. That DR of 10/silver would be great for a monk at first level with only 8 HP.

[Waker]

Here is a snippet I made in another topic.

Monk 7/ Mantis Shen 9/Warshaper 4
Shen is a prestige class from Dragon 319. Mantis Shen gives the character a boost to tripping, grappling (improved grab) and disarming, adds the silver, cold iron and ghost touch qualities to his unarmed attack (allowing him to grapple incorporeal), lets his unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning, slashing or piercing damage and he gets improved uncanny dodge.
And of course you all know the stuff from Warshaper.
This could of course be altered to fit your goal. The Shen class basically is a monk-type prc (though not exclusive to monks) that lets you take on aspects of the animals in the Shaolin styles (Crane, Dragon, Monkey, Panther, Mantis, Snake, Tiger.)

[Mockingbird]

Here's the deal with Warshaping and Minotaur vs. Changeling..
I don't see when in here you're in an alternate form, and warshaper's class abilities only apply when you're in an alternate form.
If I'm wrong on saying that, let me know, because I'm usually wrong. :p

Anyway, the benefit from Changeling (it's my favorite race.. :D) is that you are always in an alternate form, so Warshaper's abilities work all the time, and it has the shapechanger subtype so it automatically qualifies for the class. I'm slightly biased towards Changeling because I'm playing a changeling warshaper right now.
The benefit from Minotaur (besides the 50 ft. land speed, that's ridiculous) is that with Warshaper, you can pump up attacks you already have, so if you snag the Improved Natural Attack feat, you can make your 1d8 gore attack into 2d6.
Correct me if I'm wrong about this, again, please, lols.

[Kaje]

Why not make a half-minotaur changeling?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A character with a Minotaur parent and a Human parent is just a Minotaur, you cannot ever use Human as the base creature for a Half-Minotaur.

Go Half-Minotuar Changeling and gain the benefits of Warshaper for no additional effort.

[CIDE]

I've got no problems with the changeling. There were just other routes (namely class options) that facilitate the polymorph (or suitable replacement) that would allow me to keep the perks of the Half-Minotaur as well as the class. I was just wanting to exhaust every option before taking the "easy way".

As far as Changling/Minotaur... I guess. It works and makes everything easier.

"A character with a Minotaur parent and a Human parent is just a Minotaur, you cannot ever use Human as the base creature for a Half-Minotaur."

Oh...?

""Half-minotaur" is an inherited template that can be added to any creature of the giant, humanoid, or monstrous humanoid type (referred to hereafter as the "base creature") from Small to Huge in size."

'human' should be a 'humanoid'. I'm not trying to take an attitude with you on this though. I realize that you were bringing up the story implications of what a Minotaur actually was (already half human in theory).

Anyway...

I do see the point about the changeling though. Even if that Shen class was looking good 'cause taking the Vow of Poverty I'd lose out on attacking incorporeal targets and all.

I can't remember if Changeling required a LA.

[nijineko]

changeling = 0la.

a single level of psion can also grant the same ability as a changeling, freeing you to be any race.

druid 5 or ranger 5 also can grant entry to warshaper via wildshape.

iirc, lycanthropy is not enough to qualify.

the hengeyokai (oa) also qualify, updated to 3.5 in a dragon mag to +0la.

[CIDE]

Lycanthropy can but stuff like you see from VAmpires can not qualify a character for Warshaper.

I was considering Psion but I wasn't exactly sure how that worked. Is it the Metamorphosis ability you're referring to? 'cause I thought that was a 4th level ability that you couldn't take at 1st level. I could be wrong though.

Edit: I took a second look at Changeling. I'm not convinced that would do it anyway. What they do is basically Disguise Self and NOT Change Shape. So they don't do anything that fits the criteria on the list of requirements for the Warshaper.

Which will suck for anyone that relied on that already.

Yes, I know it contradicts this later in other sections such as the "DAy in the life" or ones covering reproduction. I guess it's a judgement call.

On a side note I was also eyeballing the Metamorphic Transfer psionic Feat. If I read it correctly it allows the user to take one special ability of the creature you become. I.E. Troll's Regen 5.

Anyone thing this applies to any sort of partial changes from Warshapers?

[Arcane_Snowman]

Changelings have the Shapchanger Subtype, qualifying them for Warshaper. Likewise the Minor Change Shape states that it's as though using disguise self, however it also states that the changes are not illusory, they are in fact physical alterations.

The benefit of being a Changeling however is that Morphic Body can be on at all times at all times, as you can always take an alternate form.

[kardar233]

Personally I don't see the use of Psionic Fist in a world where Tashalatora exists, so go the whole hog with the Tashalatoran God of Smack (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19539114/Psychic_Warrior_Build_Guide_38;_Compendium_Revised ). The Half-Giant version should be most useful as it already accounts for effectively Large Size and the +1 LA.

[Coidzor]

There is a Wildshaping Monk variant from one of the Dragon Magazines. Monk 5 loses you 2 BAB, gets you wild shape, then you can take some MOMF as well as warshaper.

Makes Half-Minotaur rather pointless after it gets going though.


I'm not sure about the availability of a lycanthropic curse in the roleplay. As awesome as the template would be. That DR of 10/silver would be great for a monk at first level with only 8 HP.

Lycanthropes not exist in the setting or are you somehow unable to start at anything other than level 1, wet behind the ears, and fresh from your mother's apronstrings? :smallconfused:

[Kaje]

Wild Monk doesn't get wild shape til level 6.

[Mockingbird]

Changelings have the shapechanger subtype.
Warshaper requires shapechanger subtype.
End of story! :D

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Changelings have the shapechanger subtype.
Warshaper requires shapechanger subtype.
End of story! :D


All of the following are class features of the warshaper prestige class. The class features function only when the warshaper is in a form other than her own.


Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the
supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though
using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not
their possessions. This is not an illusory effect but a minor
physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin
color and texture, and size, within the limits described
for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will,
and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A
changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true
seeing spell reveals her natural form. Using this ability is a
full-round action.

Many will argue that you're still in your own form when using this ability, and thus cannot benefit from any of the Warshaper's class features. I'm inclined to agree with that, since a minor alteration to physical appearance does not constitute a change in form. You do not gain any different physical qualities such as movement modes, natural weapons, natural armor, etc. as you would when using Alter Self or an Alternate Form ability. It is ultimately up to each individual DM whether this combination of race and prestige class will function.

[Mockingbird]

Many will argue that you're still in your own form when using this ability, and thus cannot benefit from any of the Warshaper's class features. I'm inclined to agree with that, since a minor alteration to physical appearance does not constitute a change in form. You do not gain any different physical qualities such as movement modes, natural weapons, natural armor, etc. as you would when using Alter Self or an Alternate Form ability. It is ultimately up to each individual DM whether this combination of race and prestige class will function.

In Races of Eberron under Changeling, it says "A changeling is reverted to it's natural form when it dies."
If it can revert to it's natural form, it must have a different one, too.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In Races of Eberron under Changeling, it says "A changeling is reverted to it's natural form when it dies."
If it can revert to it's natural form, it must have a different one, too.

Its natural form could refer to before it shaved all its body hair, which would not be a form other than its own. It could refer to before the character had an arm severed, which would not be a form other than his own. "Not his natural form" and "Not his own form" are two completely different things.

[CIDE]

"Personally I don't see the use of Psionic Fist in a world where Tashalatora exists, so go the whole hog with the Tashalatoran God of Smack. The Half-Giant version should be most useful as it already accounts for effectively Large Size and the +1 LA."

These are all pretty much custom worlds that build as the players throw ideas out. Obviously some ideas aren't going to fly whereas others with classes or races can. DM discretion, basically. He's pretty lenient with me 'cause unlike the power-players in he group I'm ALL about the roleplay.

"There is a Wildshaping Monk variant from one of the Dragon Magazines. Monk 5 loses you 2 BAB, gets you wild shape, then you can take some MOMF as well as warshaper."

Recall the issue number or name of the class? That way I can download a PDF of it. Very easy to do on google.

"Makes Half-Minotaur rather pointless after it gets going though."

I MAY be forced to drop it anyway.

"Lycanthropes not exist in the setting or are you somehow unable to start at anything other than level 1, wet behind the ears, and fresh from your mother's apronstrings? "

Starting level 1. Also, I'm not sure if the lycanthropes would be there or not.

"Changelings have the shapechanger subtype.
Warshaper requires shapechanger subtype.
End of story! :D

I stand corrected.

"Many will argue that you're still in your own form when using this ability, and thus cannot benefit from any of the Warshaper's class features. I'm inclined to agree with that, since a minor alteration to physical appearance does not constitute a change in form. You do not gain any different physical qualities such as movement modes, natural weapons, natural armor, etc. as you would when using Alter Self or an Alternate Form ability. It is ultimately up to each individual DM whether this combination of race and prestige class will function."

As I pointed out it contradicts itself. Later it even mentions reproduction possible for a Changeling born male while they in female guise carry a child. But yeah, I'd agree it comes down to a judgement call from the DM.

[Coidzor]

"There is a Wildshaping Monk variant from one of the Dragon Magazines. Monk 5 loses you 2 BAB, gets you wild shape, then you can take some MOMF as well as warshaper."

Recall the issue number or name of the class? That way I can download a PDF of it. Very easy to do on google.

Dragon 324 page 97 according to my notes. Called the Wild Monk. Dragon 310, 331, and 324 all apparently were published on Monkday. Unlike the Wildshaping Ranger, it seems to get the full Druid suite of wildshaping capabilities, and loses a fair bit of things most people don't really care about. So, depending upon how PrCs interact with monk's leveling restrictions to your DM, you could splash warshaper into a primarily Wild Monk build.

Biggest downside is probably that turning into a ludicrously high strength creature and flurrying directly competes against acquiring lots of natural weapons with which to rend one's enemies, if I'm recalling how flurry works (or rather doesn't) with natural weapons. However, the natural weapons are going to outclass flurry of blows anyway, especially with pounce being relatively easy to acquire in wildshape forms and the extra natural weapon(s) that warshaper provides. Especially if your DM allows you to be a kung fu panda and use Unarmed Strikes while wildshaped.



"Lycanthropes not exist in the setting or are you somehow unable to start at anything other than level 1, wet behind the ears, and fresh from your mother's apronstrings? "

Starting level 1. Also, I'm not sure if the lycanthropes would be there or not.

Ah, always the sticky wicket, level 1, especially for templates. :/

[CIDE]

This Kung Fu Panda intrigues me... Anymore information?

Also, I found the Shen and I'm pretty sure I want that in there. The transformation does crazy stuff (such as ghost touch) and initially will heal me for a full day's rest. But it could easily work well to mesh Wild Monk-->Shen (any animal but leaning towards Mantis)-->Warshaper.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Werebear template class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a), just call it a Panda.

[CIDE]

That template/race/class seems kind of broken for a +2/+3 LA. That's just me. If for no other reason the Hit Die. Assuming someone gets perfect rolls that's over 160 at level 6. Never mind damage resistance on top of it.

It sounds awesome regardless. that is getting saved.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You still have to spend levels on those hit dice, in addition to the level adjustment progression. The 1st level natural Werebear from the Monster Manual is ECL 10: Warrior 1, +3 LA, and 6 HD for Bear.