(PF) Most Versatile Martial Class?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

In your opinion, of the various martial classes, which is the most versatile, and WHY?

(Cavalier,Barbarian, Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, and any archetype of those classes...)

Is is the Rogue, with his many and varied skills? The Fighter, with his...um... weapon... and uh, armor... stuff? the Ranger with his mix of skills, martial prowess, and spells? The Paladin, with his mount, spells, and sword?

Feel free to post a build that you think exemplifies the versatility of the class that you are claiming to be the most versatile.

Im curious to hear what you all think!

[Urpriest]

I assume we're talking about pure PF, with no 3.5 content mixed in? Otherwise you're going to get a lot of ToB.

Anyway, I've heard good things about PF's Soulknife, and Vivisectionist Alchemist is probably a Martial Class in some sense.

[RndmNumGen]

If you're looking at Archtypes, Fighter has one for just about every build imaginable, but once you pick it you're stuck with it... so it's not versatile in a 'day-to-day' sense. Along a similar line Ranger now has a multitude of available combat styles, not just Archery and TWF, if you wanted to look at that.

If you want a class that can do everything decently, then Rogue(or Vivisectionist Alchemist, if that qualifies as a martial class) has a ton of available options and plenty of skill points to back it up.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I assume we're talking about pure PF, with no 3.5 content mixed in? Otherwise you're going to get a lot of ToB.

Anyway, I've heard good things about PF's Soulknife, and Vivisectionist Alchemist is probably a Martial Class in some sense.

Yes, exactly right, I meant pure PF, because then I would just hear a chorus of "swordsage, warblade, crusader, unarmed swordsage, rawr!"

Also, im not sure if the Psionic Pathfinder classes are actually official, I believe that they may be third party.

[Psyren]

Most versatile will likely be a gish due to spells - Magus or Psywar for instance.

If you mean a purely martial class though, few can do as many things as the Rogue can.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Most versatile will likely be a gish due to spells - Magus or Psywar for instance.

If you mean a purely martial class though, few can do as many things as the Rogue can.

Eh... I included the "half" casters like Paladins and Rangers... but i tend to conclude that the "three-quarters" casters like Magus and Bard are centered around their spells, so aren't really "Martial" classes in the traditional sense.

so lets leave out Alchemist, Bard and Magus for this exercise, okay?

Cavalier, Barbarian, Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, and any archetype of those classes...

[Rentaromon]

if u allow psionics the new class in the psionics expanded, aegis is customizable like crazy, in fact u can change out all your abilities almost any time.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

if u allow psionics the new class in the psionics expanded, aegis is customizable like crazy, in fact u can change out all your abilities almost any time.

again, I dont think the psionic classes are official, Im pretty sure they are third party.

[MeeposFire]

again, I dont think the psionic classes are official, Im pretty sure they are third party.

Wel they are "official" third party. They are third party but Paizo says they are official because they are never going to do psionics (they hate psionics).

[kardar233]

As I've heard DSP has a pretty good reputation, I wouldn't mind including them even though they're third-party.

Not much bearing on the thread though.

[jaybird]

Synthesist Summoner is 2/3 casting which technically is less then 3/4 casting :smallbiggrin:

Sheer versatility probably goes to the Rogue.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Sheer versatility probably goes to the Rogue.

So does versatility also equal ability to solo, I wonder? because at least two people have said "rogues are the most versatile Martial class" but have neglected to mention why they think that, and I feel a Rogue would NOT solo well either.

I'm a huge fan of rogues, I just wonder.

[grarrrg]

A few things in no particular order:

Synthesist Summoner should qualify as a martial class.

PF-Psionics are 3rd party, BUT they are HEAVILY based on 3.5 Psionics which were 1st party. They basically just did the necessary conversions/cleaning up. So I say Soulknife and Psychic Warrior should be allowed to 'compete'.

And Gunslinger gets my vote for LEAST versatile.
I like the class and all, but it is seriously lacking the versatility.

[Tael]

Paladin or Ranger. Probably Paladin.

Both are good straight up warriors, Paladin taking a huge lead when fighting evil creatures (which is most of the time unsurprisingly)

Both have access to a companion/mount that can amazingly helpful both in and out of combat.

Both have access to spells that add to versatility.

Rangers have better skills and are good in nature-focused or single creature campaigns.

Paladins have better class features, such as healing, protective auras, and massive evil-slaying power. They also generally have some kind of RP benefits and drawbacks, like being trusted and belonging to a powerful order, while having to follow a code.

No other martial class can measure up to that level of versatility, and I feel Paladin takes the cake because of it's incredibly combat ability against evil creatures, and that skills are never as good as class features.

PF Paladin = best thing that Paizo ever did.

EDIT: Rogue could also be considered very versatile, but it's inability to solo enemies and lack of mount/spells is pretty crippling.

[Knightofvictory]

I'm going to have to go with Paladin... in full agreement with the above poster.


PF Paladin = best thing that Paizo ever did.

Except for the Ranger part, I never liked them much...:smalltongue:

I know most people will disagree with that, but here is my argument.

Seven reasons I love Paladins in PF
1. Standard martial stuff, full BAB, any armor can be used, and shields. This makes him competitive with any other melee class.
2. Awesome saves. Between Divine Grace and good Fort and Will saves, Paladin has the best overall saving throws of any class. True, Reflex will never be better than a Rogue or Monk, but his Fort and Will should be better than most. This makes him the best melee class against spellcasters and useful against all kinds of nasty monsters with wicked abilities.
3. Immunities. Disease. Fear. If fight demons, undead, dragons, or evil outsiders, this WILL come up. And you will fight at least one of these in almost any campaign. And you will be glad you have this. Your allies will love you too for the bonus to fear saves, and remove disease as well.
4. Protection from Evil. Highly underrated spell. low levels, enjoy the +2 bonus to AC and saves. Higher levels you will have rings and cloaks this does not stack with, but the spell is still tremendously useful for resisting mind control effects. Fighter dominated? Not anymore. Nasty creatures like Illithids just got a lot less scary.
5. Lay on hands. Heals yourself as a swift action. Stay in the fight as long as a barbarian. Maybe longer.
6. Did I mention SMITE EVIL??? The trademark ability is icing on the cake thanks to the significant buff it got in pathfinder. This makes you the BEST melee class against the scariest thing in the room. Better AC, great damage, and yes you can only use it a few times per day, but it is epic against bosses.
7. The mount/ sacred weapon is very nice in PF. Either mount up and get amazing mobility with your steed, or get a damage boost for one encounter.

The paladin is the best melee class for handling a variety of challenges: everything from spellcasters, to dragons, to undead. His immunities and great saves let him ignore things that can shut down most melee players. And outside of combat, he has access to the most widely used social skill, diplomacy. He does not have the skills of a rogue, but he is prepared for almost any fight or monster, which is more than most melee classes can say.

[Ashram]

Wel they are "official" third party. They are third party but Paizo says they are official because they are never going to do psionics (they hate psionics).

This is actually a blatant lie; Paizo has said they will get to an official psionics book eventually. They just have more important things to do than make a few number changes to 3.5's psionics system, slap it into a hardcover book and call it a day.

[Psyren]

again, I dont think the psionic classes are official, Im pretty sure they are third party.

DSP + Paizo natter:
Paizo isn't very interested in psionics, but are leaving the door open for psionics rules of their own (which they have stated will likely (a) bear no resemblance to the 3.5/PsU points-based ruleset, (b) be a loooong way off even if they do materialize - think 2013+, and (c) have different class names even if they do it, so that theirs can be used in tandem with PsU and DMs can choose which they want to use.)

However, other 3P publishers definitely consider it "official," as they are making splats compatible with PsU. My personal hope is that they don't bother and leave it to DSP, but we'll see.

On topic: we need to define "versatile" (Largest variety of attack methods? Most things it can do outside of combat? Widest variety of archetypes and ACFs?) but I'm still leaning towards Rogue or possibly Ninja.

[ThatLovin'Elan]

On topic: we need to define "versatile" (Largest variety of attack methods? Most things it can do outside of combat? Widest variety of archetypes and ACFs?).

Very true.

I'll take a different tack then others and state that the Monk is a versatile character in PF since the release of Ultimate Combat in the sense that it can be built a number of different ways and still function, as long as they pick up a decent archetype.

For most options in and out of combat in a core PF class, I'd say Ranger; the popular "Switch-Hitter build" can function in melee and ranged combat, has a good number of skill with a great class skills list, a few clutch spells a day, and lots of nice class abilities.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Very true.

I'll take a different tack then others and state that the Monk is a versatile character in PF since the release of Ultimate Combat in the sense that it can be built a number of different ways and still function, as long as they pick up a decent archetype.

For most options in and out of combat in a core PF class, I'd say Ranger; the popular "Switch-Hitter build" can function in melee and ranged combat, has a good number of skill with a great class skills list, a few clutch spells a day, and lots of nice class abilities.

I wonder if the switch hitter ranger can take the backseat with the point blank master and snap shot feats from Ultimate Combat.

[legomaster00156]

Cavalier, Barbarian, Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, and any archetype of those classes...

Well, they all have different roles.
Cavalier is an excellent mounted class, and if you pump up INT, it can even make a decent skillmonkey.
Barbarian is not very versatile, but it IS very combat-reliable with their improved speed, two-handed weapon, and rage powers beefing them up.
Fighter is the most versatile combat class, with Weapon Training basically giving them free Weapon Focus/Specialization in entire groups of weapons, thus allowing them to basically pick up any old weapon and swing it like a pro. Their versatility is reduced by archetypes, but these also give them superior training in one particular area.
Gunslinger is pretty nifty with his Deeds helping out, but without any Grit remaining, he's reduced to "I shoot him again".
Monk is a very fast hard-hitter... and that's about it. However, beef him up with Style feats, and he's suddenly whirling around the battlefield, leaving a trail of death and destruction in his wake. With the Master of Many Styles archetype, you can even have multiple styles active at once!
Paladin: Ah, the good ol' Slaydar. During levels 1-3, expect to be outshone by even the Rogue in combat. But come level 4, YOU'LL be the one laughing! Channeling, spells, immunity to fear and disease, swift-action self-heals... and, heck, you even make a pretty good diplomancer (cast the spells Eagle's Splendor and Honeyed Words, buddy!). For specialization in certain directions, the Oathbound Paladin is an awesome archetype.
Ranger: Fairly versatile, and a good skillmonkey, the Ranger performs extremely well when against his favored enemies or in his favored terrain. Bonus feats allow you to take in some of the best abilities of a style, which range from archery to weapon-and-shield. If you are in a favored terrain or against a favored enemy, you may be a better combatist than even the Barbarian.
Rogue: And, finally, the famous skillmonkey. Although not great in combat (better than in 3.5, though), their rogue tricks and massive skill point pool, spread amongst dozens of class skills, give them the title of most versatile non-combat class.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

That was a lovely breakdown.

[Eshi]

I'm guessing Inquisitor also doesn't count since even alchemist doesn't.

In which case, Ninja, Rogue, and Paladin (in that order) are probably the most versatile . Rogues and ninjas get lots of skills and talents/tricks to make them useful in any situation, while paladins get access to very useful spells and mercies to cover areas that they don't.

Fighter is pretty much the opposite of versatile. Yes, they may be able to choose from any form of combat to specialize in, but once it's chosen they are stuck with it and have terrible utility otherwise. Gunslinger is also very inflexible.

[grarrrg]

Now that I've thought about it a little more, my vote goes to the Inquisitor.

It's comparable to a Rogue for base stats, 3/4bab, d8HD, 6 skills/lvl.
It's Judgement lasts the entire encounter, can give a variety of useful benefits, of which the benefit can be changed as a Swift action, eventually granting more benefits. (Attack rolls, AC, Damage, Saves, DR, etc...)

It can detect ANY alignment at will (Inquisitor 1, Paladin 0)

It gets free Teamwork feats that work whether or not anyone else has taken them.

It can grant its weapon the Bane property. Arguably better than Favored Enemy, as you are not locked into a given choice. (Bane ALL the enemies!)

It gains the use of a single Domain's powers (but not the spells).

And it has 2/3 casting.

Even if you ignore the casting, I think the ability to select Judgement powers, and Bane-target on the fly, and the 6/lvl skills qualify it as fairly versatile.

[legomaster00156]

@Eshi: Like I said, Weapon Training basically lets them pick up any weapon and swing it like a pro. Fighters are, indeed, very versatile.

@grarrg: The OP said no 2/3 casting classes.

[Fax Celestis]

Also, im not sure if the Psionic Pathfinder classes are actually official, I believe that they may be third party.

They are official material published by a third party, in much the same fashion (albeit far less broken) that Paizo published Dungeon and Dragon for many years during 3.5's reign.

[The Gilded Duke]

I'm going to go with Samurai myself.
Good social skills, good damage, depending on your path lots of nice re-rolls, and really absurdly resilient. Also you get a free full animal companion horse, with the right feats that thing can be a combat monster on its own. Not as awesome as an Eidalon perhaps, but still pretty amazing when added on to a full bab class.

[Urpriest]

In terms of soloing, shouldn't Rogue be better than Paladin? My understanding was that soloing was primarily a matter of avoiding fights, which seems much easier with stealth skills and no code of honor.

[grarrrg]

@grarrg: The OP said no 2/3 casting classes.

Well, yes and no.


i tend to conclude that the "three-quarters" casters like Magus and Bard are centered around their spells, so aren't really "Martial" classes in the traditional sense.

so lets leave out Alchemist, Bard and Magus for this exercise, okay?


(until I am corrected by the OP...)
He disqualifed the 3/4 casters, not by virture of 'having' 3/4 casting, but because they are 'casting focused'. If you restrict/remove their casting, they would have trouble holding their own.
A straight-class Alch/Bard has very few Melee boosting abilities (barring spell buffs). And while the Magus has melee abilities, they are all centered around casting or otherwise using spells.

My point is that even WITHOUT spell casting, an Inquisitor is a competent Martial character.
Yes, they would lose in a straight up fight with a Barb, but that is not the point, the point is "Martial Versatility", which they have plenty of.

[ThatLovin'Elan]

@Eshi: Like I said, Weapon Training basically lets them pick up any weapon and swing it like a pro. Fighters are, indeed, very versatile.

Cough (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) cough (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256.0).

A Fighter can fight. Even in Pathfinder, you don't have the feats to adequately run two different types of combat in the same build; try a Ranger, who also gets better skills, spellcasting (or a nice ACF like Skirmisher), an animal companion, favored enemies, favored terrains, a save or die, evasion, etc. etc. etc.

Fighters did get a boost in Pathfinder, but they're not even close to touching something like a Paladin or Rogue when it comes to versatility.

[Psyren]

Note that Soulknife has an archetype called Gifted Blade that gives it paladin-ish casting from a limited list in exchange for Psychic Strike. This gives it much more versatility, particularly when you throw in the powers it can pick up via Expanded Knowledge.

PsiEx will have more martial classes to add to the list as well; the Aegis and Marksman are already complete, and Exemplar (fixed Divine Mind, woo) is next in line and currently in open Beta.

[ThatLovin'Elan]

Note that Soulknife has an archetype called Gifted Blade that gives it paladin-ish casting from a limited list in exchange for Psychic Strike. This gives it much more versatility, particularly when you throw in the powers it can pick up via Expanded Knowledge.

PsiEx will have more martial classes to add to the list as well; the Aegis and Marksman are already complete, and Exemplar (fixed Divine Mind, woo) is next in line and currently in open Beta.

If the Soulknife is allowed, it gets an honorable mention at least; if Gifted Blade is added, it gets a serious look. I like the Soulbow ACF as well :D

I like the Exemplar, but I feel more like it's a revamped Marshall. Either way, there's some fun abilities...like the specialization that can teleport enemies 10 feet as an immediate action :smallbiggrin:

[JohnDaBarr]

well I'll go with paladin and ranger as they are classes who can pull their own in combat and still be useful out of it.

And I would probably go with the ranger because the paladin is to restricted for my taste.

Still I believe that most people undervalue the rogue because he is not that much good in combat, but he can be with a simple multiclass of 2-4 lvl's of fighter. Its a good trade of, you get HP, feats and BAB while you don't lose much. Get some skill tricks (and there is some nice stuff) from Complete Scoundrel and you'll get a bastard sword's TWF guy with **** load of feat's, skill's and can use magic (arcane and divine)!

with the right buffs (and I mean simple 1-3 lvl buffs) he can even take a barbarian head on


remember barbarian, fighter and a rogue will use their heads to open a steel door XD

[Psyren]

I think Ranger is most versatile - spells, skills, melee, range, ACFs etc. With the right spells, they can fill in almost all their gaps e.g. Sneak Attack.

[Curious]

I think Ranger is most versatile - spells, skills, melee, range, ACFs etc. With the right spells, they can fill in almost all their gaps e.g. Sneak Attack.

I'm thinking that the Wild Stalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/wild-stalker) archetype might qualify for tier 3 right off the bat, actually. It loses Favored Enemy, your first combat bonus feat, and your Animal Companion, but in return you get-
Skill Bonuses.
Uncanny Dodge.
Rage.
8 Rage Powers.

Which is pretty much the entire Barbarian class slapped on to the Ranger. Rage certainly makes up for Favored Enemy, and the Rage Powers allow for enough additional power and versatility to add some serious oomph to the class. Definitely one of the strongest base classes, and my recommendation for this thread.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

this is quite interesting stuff, I have to say.